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Provenance = reputation over time. A rifle built by Tom Shelhamer is a custom rifle of the highest quality in most folks' eyes, because his is a known name and his quality is a given. However the exact same rifle built by him when he was working for Niedner's would be worth somewhat more, and the exact same rifle built by him when he was working for G&H would be worth SUBSTANTIALLY more! Same maker, same workmanship, same quality, different prices. Because of provenance and reputation over time. Shelhamer (Hagn, Martini, etc) is a known and highly-respected name but the G&H (H&H) name commands much wider respect and a correspondingly higher price. If the makers of today are fortunate enough to continue to make their rifles to the highest standard for the next 30 years or so, then they too may achieve a comparable level of provenance in the minds of the buying public. Right now they're at the Shelhamer level with aspirations/expectations for the Niedner level, but IMO the G&H/H&H level is still somewhere in the future for them. Regards, Joe __________________________ You can lead a human to logic but you can't make him think. NRA Life since 1976. God bless America! | |||
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Reading this thread reminds me of the Double Rifle market and forum. The DR market, where people gasp (like mates of mine) at paying $15,000 - $20,000 for a DR yet 1 minute before have just told me they have bought a boat for $16,000. SO i came up with a philosophy, IF you think it is too expensive, then it wasn't made for you or your market. Then, we have the "new maker" issue. Similar in some ways to Sabatti recently coming onto the market in numbers - where SOME of us questioned that all was good with them which turned out to be true, corners had been cut. Now I haven't questioned this maker on here - why - couple of reasons. 1. He said he makes all the bits himself (not sure on the barrel but that wouldn't worry me if he bought it). 2. Combined with the price, he is NOT aiming at a mass market of a similar product at a lower price (which is what Sabatti did). 3. I did make a couple of phone calls to people I know who gave the thumbs up. I am sure some of the higher end us Bolt Action makers suffered the same type of talk at ranges in the past so just let it be and let the market decide - which it will. And maybe be gratefull that in this day and age of "cheap, cheap, cheap", we have someone who is willing and prepared to make something of QUALITY again. That is unless you want "cheap, cheap, cheap" in which case buy a bloddy Ruger No 1 because all I can see is that they are getting worse. Just my HO. | |||
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Anyone that wants to bad mouth a entrepreneur for launching a product prior to any sales and having to sink his own money, and a large amount of it for certain, really should go back to work for whom ever they work for. I can promise that an interesting note to this whole debate or debacle, which incidentally proves the internet is full of legends in their own minds, is that none of the guys even slightly bad mouthing soroka have ever started their own business let alone known the anxiety of risking their own capital on something with no guarantee that he will recover the investment let alone actually make money. If your bad mouthing him as a fly-by-night stop and think about the amount of investment he surely has dumped into it and then wonder about how asinine it is to think that way. he surely wants to succeed and whats more is he thinks he will. Good for him. All that said, soroka yo really should have approached H&H or the likes prior to selling the guns to the open market. Then anyone seeing them for sale for a measly (in comparison to what H&H would charge) $14,000 would jump up and down and such a low price. It is perception that dictates reality. In that statement, anyone with a closet full of Ruger number 1 junk would of course think this rifle is high-priced-audacious gunmaking with the goal of ripping people off and running away with their money. Common sense out! God I love my avatar! I love my Avatar Too Fellas. | |||
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...and for that matter, who really gives a shit if he goes under and you cannot get parts for the gun in the unlikely event it needs a part? That is what gunsmiths are for! Besides, though I do not know soroka and I do not think I have ever met him, I am sure as hell positive that this action of his is actually built better than any of the originals. Why? modern machinery and metal is a HELL of a LOT better than some English bloke in 1905 tolling away shaping iron ore in a smoky room with antique machinery while suffering from ailments of the previous weekends liquor and bad pussy he got. As romantic as that image is to some of us, it does not ace modern steel and machinery. It just does NOT. Whether soroka makes and sells 1 or 99 of these guns, it is silly to actually think that they will not be grabbed up and collected when we are all dust, due to liquor and bad pussy of course, dead and gone we will be but these actions and rifles will be highly regaurded by the next generations, even if their machinery and steel makes ours look as bad as that of 1905's looks to us. Ah, to be young again. I miss 1905, I am thirsty and my crotch itches, however.... I still love my avatar. I love my Avatar Too Fellas. | |||
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We love your avatar too... | |||
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I can't stand it. Everyone is talking about a $15,0000. rifle and the majority are probably on S.S and a pension. If I had that kind of cash for a rifle of that ilk and quality I would buy it. You chumps that bad mouth it are all window shoppers. Someone has an idea and dream to provide a product as such, good for them. You either have what it takes to go to Africa every year on your income or whatever you have to get there. He's not looking to sell you his rifle. He's actully after a higher clientle. What you can do or have done at half the price is an option only your meek budget knows. You'll never know what quality is until you ante up the dollars. But if you did, you probably couldn't go on safari for the rest of your small minded life. Don't quite mean to be mean but quit being so out of touch with the economics of Life. Move on and live within your means. The world is full of opions and knowledge, try it some time. Glen I like your product very much. Kidd you not | |||
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Sorry buddy, you just proved your own stupidity. You know nothing about most of the commenters but yet you make a blatantly FALSE accusation! Started my first smithing business in 1969, sold out in '74 to my colleague/employee and it's still running under the same fellow that began it with me, with me still consulting and doing specialty work in addition to the 4 employees. In 1969 it cost just under $30K, equivalent to ~$250-$300K today. Started my second smithing business slightly before I retired in '98, still running it but am semi-retired now. Cost ~$50K, peanuts of course. Started my third business with My Bride in 2004 for $100K, closed the doors in '07 for an almost total loss but that's life in the real world. Have YOU ever tried to make a payroll and pay the expenses? I doubt it. So get your facts straight before making a fool of yourself any more than you already have. Yes, I doubted that Soroka could make enough profit to stay in business in a long-term manner and he more-or-less acknowledged that he never intended a 'business' anyway. I like your avatar too but IMO YOU are the 'legend in his own mind'. Regards, Joe __________________________ You can lead a human to logic but you can't make him think. NRA Life since 1976. God bless America! | |||
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Rich praises provenance, but does not value it enough to actually be prepared to pay for it. He sees the price of high provenance singleshots, as unjustified. | |||
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Smear Actually 17-4 does smear under load when it slides against many other metals. I have spent the last 42 years in design and manufacturing dealing with such issues. I have scrapped tons of parts made of 17-4 because they eventually galled in service and were then returned for replacement. This is such a small amount of material that a better choice could easily be used. Most engineering materials are a compromise between function and cost. Other than that I have no opinions about the rifle. Like most of our toys it is only money. | |||
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Hey JD, You seem a bit defensive today. Whats up? Anyway just because you've put a buck or 2 into a business in the past dosen't give you the right to slag someone else's work that you havent held in your hands. I think yer just a bit pissed you cant afford or justify one. Most of us cant- that the reality of any rifle that costs more than 3K. Just accept it and move on dude.
Hey 4759 Pray tell what "load" is there on a falling block when it slides up and down? I dont think there is any to speak of. How is it that you have scrapped tons of parts made from 17-4? Do you think that this has left you with the taste of shit in your mouth everytime you see those letters? Maybe it's some kind of metal based PTSD- post traumatic scrapping disorder. | |||
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Hey Siberia, Do did you read and think before asking your question? I mentioned that I have worked in design and manufacturing companies for more than 40 years. That time was spent on products far more expensive, complicated and sophisticated than a firearm. 17-4 galls... 303 stainless rusts... All bleeding eventually stops... rust never sleeps Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former. Albert Einstein | |||
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That includes current Holland & Holland Shop produced single shots, correct? So, according to you, the price H&H charges for their provenance is way too much, but you persist in singing the praises of such overpriced provenance,...  | |||
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Hey 4579, with all that experience you should be able to answer that very simple question then - How much load is there on a falling block when operated? Please just answer the question and then we'll see who was thinking or not. | |||
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Glenn/Soroka, You may be interested in seeing this "low provenance" Clayton Nelson benchmade Farquharson. The Author of British Single Shot Rifles vol.3 and John Saunders of London Guns/Century Arms/Farquharson Rifle Co., produced high grade new manufacture Farquharson receiver/rifles several years ago. IIRCC, they were investment cast. ..and something of interest is this ParkerHale minature Farq. [22Hornet] | |||
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How much do you think there would be if a handload pressure was high and opening the lever was difficult? Remember an owner may use a single shot for what ever purpose he wants including shooting hand loaded ammo at very high pressures. The same shooter will expect it to work even if he loads the rounds so hot the lever drags. 100% of the customers will expect the rifle to work 100% the time and some of them will have little real mechanical knowledge. The same owner may not lubricate the breech block.... | |||
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For the general public's edifiation re beginnings of one of the bigger names in the arena From the H&H website- "The History of Holland & Holland The company was founded by Harris Holland (1806-1896) in the year 1835. Although accounts of his background are somewhat sketchy we know that Harris had a successful wholesale tobacco business in London. He was also a keen and enthusiastic shot and was regularly seen winning prestigious pigeon shoots at London clubs as well as leasing a grouse moor in Yorkshire. Being a very accomplished shot, his friends convinced him to start his own gun business. It is not known when Harris started his own manufacturing operation, but it is estimated to be in the 1850s. So Harris Holland was a tobacconist, Hmmm.. You dont seem to be kickin" Bailey Bradshaw - he's a knifemaker... Don Allen of Dakota Arms fame was an airline pilot and made very few of the rifles that came out of his shop... | |||
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We dont yet know what the case is with Soroka, however in regards to H&H..... "Holland & Holland was founded by Harris Holland (1806–96) in the year 1835. At first the guns bore the inscription H.Holland, without an address, and it is probable that these were built in the trade to his design. It is not known when Harris started his own manufacturing but it is estimated to be in the 1850s. This start makes him very unusual among the London Best makers, as others such as Purdey, Boss, Lang and Lancaster had apprenticed with Joseph Manton, while others such as Beesley, Grant and Atkin apprenticed with Purdey or Boss."
Martin Hagn has exhibited Soroka on his table, but to the best of my knowledge he hasnt displayed Luxus. Hagns gun making relationships are linked to G&H and Hartmann&Weiss{two ex-Purdey lads] who manufacture the Hagn receiver.Peter Nelson [exPurdey] also worked for Hartmann&Weiss. | |||
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Samuel Colt was a sailor, Oliver Winchester was a shirtmaker, Seymour Griffin was a cabinetmaker, so what's your point? Most folks have worked at several different jobs in their lives, it's called EXPERIENCE and is usually considered an asset! I've never knocked the rifle, it's apparently very well made. I DID question the price and the method of production, and my concerns were apparently justified since Glenn answered that it wasn't intended to make a profit as a real business anyway. Fair enough, my questions and concerns are answered and I wish him luck. If you think it's worth the money then buy it. But get the facts straight before making any accusations toward those of us who questioned. BTW I too have used 17-4PH in the past and will use it again, but not for anything other than springs and small parts under no pressure. It might be OK for any other applications but the PH heat treatment mechanics don't sit well with me, just personal preference. Regards, Joe __________________________ You can lead a human to logic but you can't make him think. NRA Life since 1976. God bless America! | |||
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That's funny stuff. Freedom Arms ,North American Arms ,Magnum Research and several rifle companies use 17-4PH steel for frames, cylinders, bolts and other major pressure bearing parts. The Freedoms arms guns and the BFR revolvers are built to take rifle pressure loads.They have also held up about as well over time as any other brand of Stainless guns. You'd better offer your services to those companies as a consultant lest someone get hurt..LOL | |||
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If you'll re-read my post, you'll see that I said it was 'personal preference' concerning the mechanics (Precipitation Hardening). I, personally, am uncomfortable using any steel that gets harder as the heat goes up. That's not the way I learned it back in the dark ages. All the steels I normally use are the sort that get softer as the temp rises/soaks. I've never looked at its heat-treat procedure in detail since I have only a few cubic inches of the material anyway. My comment was not meant to denigrate the material, at all, and I haven't made any reference to lack of strength or suitability except 'personal preference'. You've jumped to a completely false conclusion, perhaps a good indication that either you dislike me or that you are prone to leap without looking. Think about it. Regards, Joe __________________________ You can lead a human to logic but you can't make him think. NRA Life since 1976. God bless America! | |||
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Location, location, if it had only been made in Boston from local materails by Euopean craftsman, but I digress. As in All "commercial" endeavours this one will will fly / die on "public demand" economics. JMHO --- John303. | |||
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Joe, I do not dislike you at all. As a matter of fact, I feel rather sorry for you. I read just fine Joe. And, I understand the relationship of steel alloy composition and heat treatment quite well. And so do the companies I have mentioned above. As to jumping to conclusions based on personal prejudice- your posts on this thread regarding Saroka rifles etc are wonderful examples of that. Someday when you build and market ANY gun of YOUR own design to the general public,your criticisms and slights will carry more weight. Until then... not so much.  | |||
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How much does Holland and Holland charge for one of there Ruger No1 pos ? 80,000 English Pounds ? talk about mutton done up as lamb | |||
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ID, I was not addressing you -but since you jumped in.... You post above proves my point. By your logic, (and I assume you are heterosexual) you are fully qualified to publish advice to gay couples on love making/relationships. I am sure that the Gay and Lesbian community awaits your insights about as much as any working gunmaker would give a fig about what you think of his wares....LOL. As for myself, I am here discussing GUN STEELS and RIFLES. I will leave the homosexuality discussions to you... | |||
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...if Rich was a man of true provenance, hed have an Aston Martin with a boot full of Purdeys.
Its pathetic that H&H use the agricultural grade Ruger#1, when it could produce its own Holland & Woodward falling block design.
To some people its only the provenance of makers name that matters. the fact that its of rather mediocre quality doesnt seem a concern to them. Personally id feel embarrassed to own some of the stuff H&H have produced,and would feel like an even bigger idiot for paying the prices they charged. | |||
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Well he does prefer the .375 H&H over the .375 Ruger... Eh Rich?  | |||
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Holland & Holland will build you an .375 Ruger bolt rifle at ones request... | |||
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Instead of hypotheticals, why not give example[s] of where 17-4 has actually f*cked up on firearms. Bat,Barrett,Hall,Excel,Farley,RG Rifles,Stolle,Stiller,McMillan,Tubb2000,Lazzeroni,Freedom Arms,North American Arms,Magnum Research, all use 17-4. Im genuinely interested to hear about where those or other brands, have galled up. | |||
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Rich, I know you have less regard for people who copy an exhisting style or design. ... are you aware that; - Searcys first double rifle was based on the Ruger Red Label shotgun, - next he modified some Browning shotguns, - then created his boxlock[copied Anson&Deeley design] with double Purdey bolting and top extension, - followed by an H&H style sidelock. - then another sidelock, using the Bissell Rising Third Bite action design.[John Rigby & Thomas Bissell patented 1879] - His Stalking rifle falling block receiver sure has close resemblance to the Hagn,.. because it basically is one! -His .500 3" single shot rifle uses the Westley Richards New Model 1897 as the pattern. Lamborghini more or less began his vehicle manufacturing career by buiding tractors from derelict military vehicles after ww2....and well, we all know what Lambo has evolved into and represents today.... Holland & Holland however,still builds rifles on old derelict mauser actions and agricultural Rugers. | |||
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Hey Rich, We didnt ask for another public blow. Just some pics. And for you to share with us what other single shot made today by anyone in the known universe that has nicer lines or is better made than a Soroka. You've been asked three times and still no answer. Rich, there's got to be one name you can give us given your previous ranting. We wont bother asking you to explain away the beginnings of some of the greatest names in firearms history. That's already game, set, match. It is apparent where your level of comfort is- and the Soroka is clearly further up the ladder than where you are capable of climbing. Maybe in another life... | |||
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Yes, good point - if you look at the history of some who are very famous now that made their name at the beginning on the back of others - H&H being one. . | |||
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OK, just for grins and giggles, who on this thread has actually ordered and given a down payment on one of these superlative rifles? That's what I thought. TT may have done so, but I'd bet a pretty penny that the rest of you are just blowing smoke. It's might easy to criticize others when you don't hafta prove that you have the courage of your convictions. Since you seem to think that the rifle is SO SUPERIOR and SO worth the money, why don't you show us that you aren't just blathering to be contrary? Come on, show us a photo of your down-payment check and the accompanying letter! No guts, no glory; put up or shut up! Yeah, that's what I thought, no guts. Regards, Joe __________________________ You can lead a human to logic but you can't make him think. NRA Life since 1976. God bless America! | |||
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Not everyone is able go and buy what ever they want, just when ever they want. Some people who appreciate & desire an Soroka, may be committed to other projects already in the build pipeline. However, Rich boasts about his purchasing power/how cashed up he is, yet he still doesnt own a rifle of any great provenance, despite having more than 40 of them. Instead,Rich has settled for budget conscious Searcy who plays copycat in everything he builds. Sorry Rich, buying an American copy does not get you English gunmaking heritage,provenance or prestige. An American machineshop just doesnt have the renown British rifle buiding craftsmen. EG; -The Hartmann&Weiss lads worked for Purdey. -Peter Nelson worked for Purdey and HartmannWeiss. -Alan Crew, at Cogswell and Harrison, apprenticed as an actioner beginning at Purdey in 1959 with Peter Nelson as foreman. -David McKay Brown (Gunmakers) Ltd, David began an apprenticeship with Alex Martin in 1957 and completed it at John Dickson & Son. He opened his own business in 1974. Each section of the work is conducted in-house, with the individual actioner, barrel-maker, stocker and lockmaker amassing more than 100 years of experience between them. So Rich, why a Searcy? when you going to splurge your cash on some genuine Holland & Holland produced provenance, that you sing the praises of so much? | |||
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Trax, I'm curious. Since you seem to love showing photos of fine-quality UK guns and making reference to their craftsmen, I'm really curious. Just how many of these fine-quality UK guns have YOU actually owned and used? I'm especially curious since you didn't even know the definition of a London 'best' quality shotgun! That is, until I told you! What a four-flusher! Regards, Joe __________________________ You can lead a human to logic but you can't make him think. NRA Life since 1976. God bless America! | |||
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J.D., you're being foolish with this latest "put up or shut up" line of argument. But then again, you have had a strange approach to this thread from the start. I just don’t get your angle on this. Clearly, if you owned the company, you'd make a cheaper rifle for the mass market and run the company differently. (Notwithstanding that Ruger already does that.) But you don't own the company. Glenn Soroka owns it. He has a very specific (and admirable, IMHO) grasp of what his rifle is supposed to be, how difficult it is to manufacture, what his price point has to be and consequently who his potential buyers are, and he is now running the company accordingly. I admire his creative talent and energy, and say best of luck to him. And yes, I can see myself owning one of his rifles in the not too distant future. Mike Wilderness is my cathedral, and hunting is my prayer. | |||
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JD I disagree with your put up and buy one argument. I love best quality guns but just do not like or own a best (or even good) quality Single Shot as single shots are not in my sphere of interest and I know are not in a lot of people's interest. Only a couple have ever taken my fancy, one of which was an old H&H. This thread really has gone way off the rails. . | |||
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Three strikes and yer done Rich. You rant relentessly and you can't provide one name of something better. Let me help. There have been plenty of Dakota model 10's built with exhibiton wood and engraved for $12,000. Pricewise thats close as a comparison. But then we all know that its only in price that it is close. Forget the quality of manufacture or design. It's really made to your price point of $7-9000 (of what you think a good ss is allowed to cost) with respectable wood and a cheekpiece, ebony tip, etc. Whats that leave you with? A Hagn. It might be well made but it ain't pretty. Unless you like German style SS's. And its $20,000 with good wood and engraved. A H&H Hagn, see above but for $50,000+ And that dude is the end of the road from where I stand. So given the non-existent choice why all the ranting against this guy for trying to bring something to the market that plainly isnt there?? | |||
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__________________________ You can lead a human to logic but you can't make him think. NRA Life since 1976. God bless America! | |||
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Well JD thats just the way it is. Thats what Hagn costs. Who said sense had anything to do with this discussion. Hasnt really been all that present for most of it - so why expect it now? Its partly why I've been turnin' the screw driver. | |||
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Oh, I see now, you mean that's the price from HAGN! Well, at least that's not as stupid as paying $20-30K for a cheap M70 in a plywood stock! So, when are you ordering YOUR Soroka (grin)? Regards, Joe __________________________ You can lead a human to logic but you can't make him think. NRA Life since 1976. God bless America! | |||
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