here's a great article
http://forums.accuratereloadin.../6321043/m/951100671

Dan

No disrespect for you or your company but I lost all interest in this action when it was stated that it could only be purchased in a complete rifle or barreled action. I know a lot of others feel the same way but won't say it.

Thanks for the update anyway.

James

Dan

If you can't figure out how to post your photos, send them to somebody via email who can post them for you. I could do that, or a whole bunch of other folks on here can do it as well.

WE WANT TO SEE THE PHOTOS.

quote:

Originally posted by J Bennett:
Dan

No disrespect for you or your company but I lost all interest in this action when it was stated that it could only be purchased in a complete rifle or barreled action. I know a lot of others feel the same way but won't say it.

Thanks for the update anyway.

James

+1

Why does it take 2+ years to bring something to the prototype stage? Its not like its something that has never been done before.

Plus Two!!!

Howard,

it is a tremendous pain in the ass to get shrinkage rates figured out on the moulds in a lost wax casting action.

Rich
Buff Killer

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
Plus Two!!!

Howard,

it is a tremendous pain in the ass to get shrinkage rates figured out on the moulds in a lost wax casting action.

Rich
Buff Killer

It's actually a machined action, and there are some different aspects to it that make it a little more unique than your standard bolt action. The action body itself is done, its the little things that end up adding months to a project. Once you have built a prototype to the original specs on the prints you soon discover that while on paper it looked or functioned great it needs some tweaking once you have the item in hand. This is not usually an overnight process. You send the changes to the CAD designer, he makes the changes as his schedule lets him and then once you have all of the new drawings, iges files, etc you send them off to the company that is doing the machining for you. Now you hope that the machine that they make the parts on is free but typically while they have been waiting for you to send them new drawings a job came up that they need the machine for and they can't just let the machine stand idle as they can't make any money doing so, so now you are at the mercy of their scheduler and hopefully they can slip your parts in. Then you start all over again. You get the new parts in, put the item together and check to see whether or not there were any other issues caused by the changing of this angle or that angle, etc. So what most would think would takes weeks ends up taking months to do. And if anyone has ever worked in the manufacturing industry you know that if you don't make absolutely everything in house you have to depend upon vendors to get the parts (usually 1st articles) to you in a timely fashion, but alas there are always problems encountered with a vendor when they are doing a part for the very first time.

Here's an example, I sent off drawings to a machining vendor, they looked them over, quoted a price and a completion date. After we gave them the go-ahead they had to make their fixtures and then start the machining process. Once they were into the machining process they realized that they needed to modify their fixtures to do the job right. A job that was originally quoted at 5 weeks turned into 8 weeks overnight. So you can see where I'm at in this stage of the process. There are minor little changes that we "need" to make to ensure that this action works as advertised (so to speak). Again I want to stress that I don't want to start sending out actions that are not correct in their manufacturing. Sending out any product that is less than perfect ends up costing the company producing it two to three times the original cost as well as a lot of time that could have been used in working on other projects.

Dan

quote:

Originally posted by Howard:
Why does it take 2+ years to bring something to the prototype stage? Its not like its something that has never been done before.

Howard,

The prototype stage was relatively a straight forward, quick process. As stated in my previous post it is not the 1st prototype that slows the process down but a conglomeration of stages. You have prototyping on the receiver, bolt, trigger, bottom metal, magazine box, spring, follower, bolt release, etc etc etc that you have to go through. And usually while the 1st prototype is good quality, it (as I said previously) usually requires some modification to get it where you want it.

Dan

quote:

Originally posted by J Bennett:
Dan

No disrespect for you or your company but I lost all interest in this action when it was stated that it could only be purchased in a complete rifle or barreled action. I know a lot of others feel the same way but won't say it.

Thanks for the update anyway.

James

I agree with the above quote. I would be very interested in both your Hi Wall AND your mini bolt action if you would only sell me just the actions. Some people prefer cut rifled tubes, some either do their own work or have a favourite gunsmith that does their barreling/custom work. This policy will cost you sales and should be rethought.

I have one of their .20 barrels and it is a great product. I think the mistake made was even bringing it up the until it was real close to being done. I already have a mini for my next project and it is called a L-46!

quote:

Originally posted by Howard:
Why does it take 2+ years to bring something to the prototype stage? Its not like its something that has never been done before.

Hey Howard, you have been around the block and should have watched enough of these action projects to know, that these things are never "on time". I have yet to experience a new action development (MRC, McGowern, Stiller Predator, Phoenix etc), which was completed anywhere close to the timeframes originally imagined.

Problems differ from project to project. Sometimes, the companies who come up with the action idea do not control the entire production chain. They often end up fighting a long battle to get parts manufactured correctly and quality to be acceptable. Sometimes, the companies are not very well funded and have to rely on scarce outside funds or other income streams to complete work. Sometimes, there are more pressing issues to be finished, and new projects get put on the back burner - e.g. to ensure current income streams don't dry up. I'm sure the economic crisis has not helped.

I have to admit, new action plans are often presented with some pretty optimistic time frames. But, having followed a few of these developments, we should take these with sound scepticism and not get over exited. Hey, here you have a company working to bring new products to market which should benefit us all as shooters. Be patient with them, and be happy somebody is interested in supplying products to this market!

- mike

quote:

Posted Sep 05, 08 18:02
Originally posted by McGowenRifle:
Just to let everyone know, we have the 1st prototypes of the Mini Action in our hands. The tolerances are tight! Action is smooth. It is becoming a reality. We just are waiting for some of the other parts to come in so that we can assemble these and start the testing.
Dan

Two years to prototype a push-feed round action?
And you can't figure out how to post photos on a website?

Be glad there's a gun trade. You wouldn't be able to hold down a job in any other industry.

Seeing how it's such a piece of cake why don't you all in the peanut gallery pony up and produce an action yourself?

I can see the bitching if they were talking money up front but as far as I know they aren't.

In terms of mechanical design and industrial production, a push-feed round action is child's play but that's not the point.

The point is this, no company should allow an uninformed employee to go on a public forum and post a bunch of BS about a vaporware product for TWO years. Companies often put years of R&D and market research into a product before launch but they don't often make repeated conflicting public pronouncements about the status of the project and expected time to market.

Time and again, we've witnessed gun companies making huge blunders with regard to new products and quality control. There are a small handful of well run firearm companies but the large majority make the folks at GM look like geniuses in comparison.

Thanks Forrest,
That was well stated.
Butch

Forrest, and that negatively affects you how? I agree it's not smart business making repeated announcements about time frames. MRC was a poster child for others on what not to do. But, unless they've taken deposits I see nothing to howl over.

It affects THEM negatively. It doesn't affect me in the least; given the description of the action, I wouldn't be a customer anyway.

I'm just commenting on the sad state of affairs in the gun trade and Dan's luck at finding the one industry where his web activities would be tolerated (or perhaps even encouraged) for this length of time.

I'm not privy to their business plan but I'm sure it involves making a profit. It'd appear profit and the gun trade are all to often mutially exclusive. That is why I don't get excited over such things. I'm sure the development schedule is soley based on finances and considering the sad state of affairs in the affordable action business I hope they do well and don't mind delays. I hope they still have their 1895 in a few years when I'm ready for one.

Dempsey,
Jerry Stiller is so far behind in his receiver business that he is continually adding CNC machines. He does deliver product. He does keep his prices in line. Unfortunatly he is not interested in producing a CRF. John Pierce is doing well with his receiver business.
Butch

That's great that there are indeed some doing well. I don't really care for the looks of those actions though on a wood stocked hunting rifle.

Wait until James Anderson finishes stocking and rust bluing my Pierce octagon barrel custom.
Butch

As Terry (TC1) encouraged me to do a couple of weeks ago, I picked up the phone last week and talked to Dan. I was encouraged by what I heard from him as far as getting a quality product to market and there might even be something in it for us custom 'smiths at an affordable price. As far as talking too much too fast I have to agree with everyone else that Dan or (they) jumped the gun on that one. I'll just hold off until they get the mini to market. There sure as heck ain't nothing else out there!
Blair

I just emailed Forrest a picture of the mini if anyone else would like me to send it to them, I will. The picture is of the mini in a Robertson Composite stock, Harris Bi-pod and a Nikon Monarch scope. admin@mcgowenbarrel.com

Dan

quote:

Originally posted by ForrestB:
It affects THEM negatively. It doesn't affect me in the least; given the description of the action, I wouldn't be a customer anyway.

I'm just commenting on the sad state of affairs in the gun trade and Dan's luck at finding the one industry where his web activities would be tolerated (or perhaps even encouraged) for this length of time.

Forrest,

You are correct, I can't blame you for your attitude towards this, but I think that I did say at the very beginning that it won't be available until we are satisfied with the design, and to date we have had many, many changes plus because of some unique features we weren't going to put anything out until it was properly patented. That in itself has taken months to accomplish. There are no excuses, I guess we felt at the time of our first post that we were very close, but after producing the first prototype we realized how far we were from being ready.

Dan

quote:

Originally posted by McGowen Precision Barrels:

Can someone show me how to put images on here and I'll put some on immediately.

Dan

define immediately

just a shot in the dark, but on a gunsmithing forum I don't think most of the viewers want to see the action fully clothed. kind of like buying a playboy just to look at the new hazmat fashion designs.

Based on my manufacturing experience, which is not slight, I can say that the action should be available for us to buy before three years have passed, from today. ...

Forrest,
Can you post the photo?
Blair

quote:

Originally posted by McGowen Precision Barrels:

Can someone show me how to put images on here and I'll put some on immediately.

Dan

Why should Forrest have to?

quote:

Originally posted by McGowen Precision Barrels: I just emailed Forrest a picture of the mini Dan

Does this mean that since the pictures aren't posted on this forum McGowen can blame Forrest?

Kind of like posting certain items for sale in the classifieds on a regular basis and only offering pictures through email. The seller doesn't seem have enough confidence in the product to let others provide an objective opinion possibly running off potential customers.

quote:

Originally posted by McGowenRifle:
We've already had tons of input from the pistol and rifle guys on this and what they would like to see. We are always open to suggestions........
Dan

I wonder what the incremental or marginal cost would be to go from a push feed type mini action to a controlled feed type mini action.

And I wonder if anyone has ever done a true statistical analysis of the pros and cons of selling actions and barreled actions along with finished rifles.

I think it's ridiculous to have to buy the barrel to get the action. I bet that changes. On a more positive note I find it entertaining to see one rip another over something so trivial and speak of lost business. I wonder if they ever consider how they represent themselves here affects their own business?

Well, as far as I know, Winchester never sold either actions or barreled actions based on their Model 70 rifle. I think that if a fellow wanted a custom rifle based on a Model 70 action he had to buy the complete rifle just to get the action. Thats why I wonder if they did some kind of statistical analysis to see whether their gross profit was hurt by refusing to sell either the action alone or the barreled action.

I suppose if a product is very good and in demand enough people will buy it regardless.

Nevertheless, I would bet that when one speaks of a "custom" rifle, there are as many folks that automatically think Remington type action as there are folks who think controlled feed type action, which is why I wondered about the marginal cost to go from a remington type action to a controlled feed type action. If the cost wasn't that much it might be beneficial(smart)for a manufacturer to make both.

Guys who want a CRF mini want a mini Mauser or mini M70. The difference in cost might be substantial and the market limited. The production of a CRF action in and of itself might not be too difficult or expensive but with most CRF fans it isn't the feeding that's important but the package. A CRF rifle with separate bolt head and full diameter bolt would probably not be well recieved. Too different.
Most guys building a varmint rifle, whether it be stand rifle or a walk-around, are concerned more with accuracy than with any esoteric advantages offered by CRF. If the action delivers performance while looking good and offering unique features, it has a shot.
Producing a one off prototype can be done fairly easily. I think I could make a functional action in about a week on manual machinery. To make it with the intention of manufacturing it is another thing altogether and quite beyond my abilities.
If I wanted to make a 223 or 222 as a light field rifle, I would find the prototype quite appealing. Having said this, I just finished barreling a Sako 461 and I surely wish those were still available. They're just plain cute!
Many of the guys here probably remember the days when we got Sakos, FN's, Herters U9's and J9's etc., cheap (along with Star diamond lapped barrels for 8 bucks!). Things have certainly changed but I'm happy to see guys trying to market stuff we can use.
I was disappointed in the MRC offerings from a quality standpoint after using a half dozen and was a bit embarassed at having supported them to the extent that I did. Nonetheless, I'm happy to see another Kalispell based product coming online. By the way, as a gunsmith, I wouldn't buy barreled actions. I prefer to do my own barrel fitting, such as it is. Regards, Bill.

quote:

Well, as far as I know, Winchester never sold either actions or barreled actions based on their Model 70 rifle. I think that if a fellow wanted a custom rifle based on a Model 70 action he had to buy the complete rifle just to get the action. Thats why I wonder if they did some kind of statistical analysis to see whether their gross profit was hurt by refusing to sell either the action alone or the barreled action.

That's to much of an apples and oranges comparison I think. Winchester isn't looking to fill a niche like a MRC or McGowen.