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AZ, I see you are still giving the speech about the 1 mile an hour wind drift will move you bullet 5 inch's if you would like some real world results not ones from a ballistic calc your statement is not true. Not all bullets are created equal and I have fired hundreds of 180 Bergers from a 7mm STW and I can assure you a 1 mile an hour change is not going to do much of all to that bullet. Also if that statement were true how come today I had a 3 MPH cross wind when I shot at 954 yards and I held dead center on the bull with no windage to see how much it would drift and my bullet hit the plate 5 inches from the center of the bull? Easily making it into the boiler room on even a deer. That was at 865ft elevation with a 338 250gr Accubond leaving the muzzle at 3100fps. According to your statement I should be off the plate I was shooting at. My elk hunt is a DIY hunt and on foot so the last thing I want to do is follow a wounded elk around so if I can make the shot then I will take it if I have doubts then I will pass. If you can't make it 90% of the time then you shouldn't take it period. I had a cow elk on my last night of my hunt last year at 846 yards with no wind which is in my shooting abilities. The shot did not feel right to me with the small opening she was in and i did not like the angle. I decided to risk losing a chance at her by stalking closer and when I hit the 437 yard mark I was not going to make it any further without her seeing me. I dialed up my dope put the bipod down and sent her to the hunting grounds in the sky. You seem to have a grudge at people shooting at game at long range but yet you claim to shoot at long range all the time on targets so what gives? Also if you want to go with the 90% rule I have a $100 bucks that says if we took 25 random people from this site and put a pie plate at 100 yards that not more than 3 of them could hit it 90% of the time off hand. I also would be willing to bet 95% of the members of this site would not think twice about trying that off hand shot at 100 yards if a 150 class whitetail was standing there broadside opening morning now would they? Yet the people putting the time in shooting and buying expensive and specialized equipment to make long shots are the one getting all the scrutiny. | |||
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Dakor: You sound like the famous Weatherby shooters of long ago: “this bullet shoots so flat you don’t have to hold over at any range.” So you shot once, noted the bullet hit five inches to the right of the target, and you conclude your bullet only drifts five inches in a 3 mph wind. WOW! The bullet and load you describe will drift 15 inches in a 3 mph wind. That is a physical fact (backed up by guys on this site that would defend long range hunting), but I am guessing you had a hard time with high school math let alone college differential equations. So you fired one bullet at 900 yards and hit five inches to one side. I have a coin that I just flipped and it landed heads. How about I sell it to you and can make all kinds of money – after all, you know it will lands heads every time. Your conclusions here are similar: based on one shot (now don’t go telling us you fired a bunch – you clearly stated one shot in your post) you conclude that your bullet is virtually unaffected by wind. Bad assumption and here is why. There are two principal reasons (but many minor ones) your bullet hit only five inches for the center of the target. For one thing, you don’t shoot a one hole group at 900 yards. Let’s assume you can shoot 5 inch groups at that distance. That means a perfectly centered group will plunk some bullets as much as 2.5 inches from the center of the target. So now the bullet that would have hit 15 inches left hits 12.5 inches left. If your group size is ten inches (based on five shots) at 900 yards, 40 percent of your bullets will hit 5 inches left or right – before the wind has any effect. Now the 15 inch drift becomes 5 inches (or 20). If you can only fire a 20 inch group at that distance, and take only one shot, there is a reasonable chance that one bullet will hit five inches from center. It doesn’t mean there is no drift, it just means you cannot shoot a tight group. No matter how small or large your group, half of the bullets you fire will hit to the left of where you aim, and half to the right. But I believe you can shoot a group far smaller than 20 inches, so this is not the likely explanation. You measured the wind as 3 mph at your shooting location. What makes you think it was 3 mph all the way to the target? The impact of wind on a bullet is pure physics – that bullet you describe will drift about 5 inches per one mile of wind speed. Now maybe in North Dakota you can rub bull semen on that bullet and make it do things the rest of us can’t, but I doubt it. More likely the wind was blowing in a completely different direction between you and that 900 yard target. Maybe it died to 1 mph when you shot; the time of flight to 900 yards for your load is a bit over one second. Wind can easily change in one second. I do shoot at long ranges all the time; several times per week as a matter of fact. My “five inch rule” is something I have concluded after 30 years of doing this every week. Your post proves my point – using a ballistics program you would have dialed in 15 inches of drift – and missed by ten inches, wounding just about any animal walking. I don’t have any issues with shooters taking long range shots if the wind drift is within reason and they have practiced enough to know what they are doing. I just find it incomprehensible how anyone can think 900 yards is a “slam dunk.” The reason I quote my 1mph wind drift rule so often is that the wind always varies that amount within a one second period. How can you be sure you have it nailed? Yes, mirage is great – but I want to see the guy who can read mirage within 1 mph. And if they do shoot they call it quits after their first shot (assume they have wounded the animal –I mean, long range shooters NEVER miss, do they?). But I guarantee there isn’t a shooter out there that can hit an antelope nine of ten times at 900 yards, no matter what cartridge they use. But hey, at least with a .338 you stand a chance of eviscerating any animal you gut shoot. At 900 yards there are other issues, like mirage and temperature. I know when I go out during the middle of a summer day in AZ when it is 115 degrees I need to take off some clicks. How much is due to less air density? How much is due to mirage displacement? Try taking a scope and putting it in a vise in a cool shady spot. Aim it at a small object over a dark area like a road or the top of a large building. Hours later, in the middle of the afternoon, see if that scope is still on that small object. Often, it is not, because mirage has displaced it. On a windy day, mirage will displace the target in the direction of the wind, making it appear where it isn’t. We aren’t talking a lot, but there is no room for error at 900 yards. Finally, go out to a 1000 yard high power long range competition and see how many shooters plunk their first shots within 5 inches of their point of aim the first time, especially when sighters are limited. You will see 90 percent of the shooters cannot do it. So why do you think you are better than them? Some of you guys should shoot competitively – you would take home a lot of cups, trophies, and ribbons. As for your bet about taking a shot, you are correct that most hunters would take that shot. But let’s see the same bet in Africa – where if you merely wound you just bought the animal. Then let’s see who decides to fire. Between temperature, mirage, wind, and the animal moving during TOF, you just can’t tell me your odds of making that shot at 900 yards are higher than your odds of getting closer. And therein lies the difference between long range hunters and long range shooters. This yahoo shooting the pistol at an antelope is a perfect example: he admits he didn’t try getting closer. Why not just shoot at rocks? Does anyone think it peculiar that not a single guide has ever defended “extended” range shooting at big game? Why do you suppose that is? I mean, if it is so effective, wouldn’t it make their life so much easier? | |||
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Why don’t you ask John Porter or Mike Eastman to name a couple, if they like the advantage of being able to shoot game at long range since no guide has ever said they like long range hunting? Have you fired a 338 250gr Accubond at my 3100fps at my shooting location which is in my front yard by the way? Or are you going by my point that you are sitting there telling me how it drifts using a ballistic calc which is a guide. To answer some of your questions I never said people don’t miss that happens at any range I am sure you never have botched a shot at 100 yards or less right?  I have. I also suppose you are going to tell me the same rule applies with your 1 MPH to a 338-416, 338 Snipetac, and a 408 cheytac right? I took my wind reading where I was and used the speed cotton floating in front of me all the way to the target as a guide. This is in an open field with not much to change the wind from me to the target and I shoot this range 4 times a week since it is in my front yard so I think I know what happens on it a little better then you. Even if I was off by a 1 MPH I should be farther off the target and the way the rifle shoots I am not worried about your theory of how it groups since I have real world experience shooting it not keyboard experience. You can try mix words and be a smart ass to make your point I really don’t care. The Another thing I am not going to get into how well I can shoot because I really don’t care what you think but I never said I called my one shot at 954 good. I used that as an example that your 1 MPH is not correct. Yes you have to dope the scope for wind obviously since I said I have been shooting up to 30 mph winds on and off the last month. If you were not so busy enjoying seeing yourself type and read that in my post you would have seen that. Your 1 MPH 5 inch rule for every projectile is not correct period. Try and tell me you are going to see the same wind drift at sea level as you are at 10,000ft and I will tell you that you obviously have never spent much time shooting at 10,000ft because the shooting game up there is much different even from my house which is 865ft. I also don't need to pound round after round in a 5 inch circle I need to put my first round from a cold bore in the kill zone and that is what I have been spending most my time working on in the last year. I also said if I don't like the setup I won’t take the shot. You like most people just assume (I am sure you know what assume stands for) that long range shooters are going to take the shot no matter what. I would say 95% of the true long range shooters not that mall ninja's that we get lumped in with will pass if they feel the conditions are not right. I really don’t care if I paid X amount of dollars for a tag if I like the conditions and the range of the shot I will take it. I never said I would not try and get closer if possible I believe I gave that example already and I don’t walk away from animals to make it a longer shot. I don’t need to go out and prove if I can shoot or not in a comp I have no interest or the time. You also made the statement no one can hit a antelope at 900 yards 9 out of 10 times which I think is funny because if the shooter gets to call the shot or pass it can be done. | |||
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 Good Post AZ! ...but you left out the part about the scope being slightly turned in the rings because of a bailing wire and duct tape imprecise scope mounting job. Scope cant or whole rifle cant affects bullet impact (windage) at the ranges your talking about a bunch. | |||
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Rcamulia, Yep I am just a dumb ND hick with a Tasco and a Wal-Mart special shooting with duct tape and gum holding it together. Why don't you try being in the league a little longer before disrespecting people who you know nothing about? My point is his 5 inch MPH theory is flawed big time and a ballistic calculator is a close guide not dead on. Go to JBM and run the ballistics on a 308 win using a 190smk with a bc of .533 at 2700fps, a 338 using a 300 Berger with a bc of .820 at 3000fps and a 408 using a 400gr 1.2 bc bullet at 3000fps and tell us if they all drift exactly 5 inches at 1mph cross wind at any range from 0 to 1000 yards. You can post this since you wanted to insult me. I already know the answer. Mr. AZ writer also has not mentioned spin drift which does start coming into play and being I have a right twist barrel and the wind was coming from the right that would be one reason the shot was 5 inches off to the left instead of 15. So again that blows his theory out of the water again because a left twist barrel would have drifted more left then what the wind should have pushed it. The other reason would be some bullets cut the wind better in the air then on paper plain and simple. That is why you take a note book to the range and take notes because every day is different even in the back wood hick world of ND. I would bet if all three of us were at the range together face to face you would not be trying to insult me but being there are miles between us and a computer screen it is sure easy to act like an adolescent. God forbid if you ever make it up to the bull semen state of ND maybe you should stop in for a visit. The range is always open and maybe you might have a good time and learn something in the process. | |||
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Hey Hitman! Do you have any idea about how hard I'm biting my tongue?!?! (keyboard)   Easy, there dakor! My reply had nothing to do with insulting you.
The reason for my reply was to add a third principal reason for windage error at long range; imprecise scope mounting (cant in the rings) and rifle cant itself. I think it's hilarious when guys say that they don't see wind, spin drift, or coriolis effect that is actually there. I'm sure it's due to their scope being mounted in a shop envirnonment and not precisely mounted. IE. Vertical centerline of the Scope to the vertical centerline of the bore within .001" at 6" | |||
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Rick, It is why I use levels on my long range guns. I once wrote a story in which mounted two scope levels such that I could perfectly the cant the gun and see the impacts right/left. Dakor, Trust me, I shoot several times a week at long ranges. I don't think you are understanding what I am saying. Maybe you are and you just don't write very well. I am not saying every bullet drifts 5 inches at 1000 yards. What I am saying is that once that bullet begins to drift that much in a one mph wind, it becomes impossible to park 90 percent of your bullets in a 10 inch circle. By the way, a 300 SMK at 3100 fps drifts a mere 3.5 inches at 900 yards. But the bullet you describe has a BC of .575, which means it is going to drift about 5 inches in a 1 mph wind at 900 yards. It is pure math. Think about it: what is more likely to be the rationale for your observation: that your bullets are some how much more efficient or maybe some other factor (like wind speed) changed? A 300 SMK at 4600 fps drifts more than 6 inches in a 3 mph wind. So how does yours do so much better? I can hold an anemometer anywhere and see the wind change 1 mph every second or two, unless of course, it is dead calm. As range increases, your group increases as well as your uncertainty due to wind and a host of other factors. Would I bet I can hit an antelope at 900 yards in a calm wind? Yea, I would take that bet and i would take the shot sitting, not laying on my belly. But I also know the odds of missing as little as 5 inches is high enough to miss 10% of the time. PS: I have never missed anything less than 100 yards. As for real world experience, I don't think you want to compare what I have shot vs you. If you want, I would be happy to do that as well as count the shooting trophies in trophy room. I find it hilarious that some posters here claim long range shooting is a pure numbers game - except when the numbers don't agree with their opinions. Anyway, I am in Florida on business but the beach is much more inviting that hanging out here. | |||
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Just keep on biting; discussion can get lively and no one has to agree. It's just gonna stay civil. If ignorance is bliss; there are some blissful sonofaguns around here. We know who you are, so no reason to point yourselves out. | |||
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Now is a good time you explain in detail how this is done. I'm listening. ________________________________________________ Maker of The Frankenstud Sling Keeper Proudly made in the USA Acepting all forms of payment | |||
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I must be lucky in the way I mount my scope, because I am not seeing any spin drift with my 300 win or my 338 Laupa David Tubbs cants his rifle but levels the reticle, I am rather sure that Tubbs isn't wrong since he beats most others _____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
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Just like jwp, you can get "lucky" | |||
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Now you have showed just how arrogant and ignorant you really are. So your whole hunting career you have never missed a shot at less than 100 yards? You also want to brag about a trophy room and shooting trophy’s to try and put me down. Why don’t you take your theory over to snipers hide, long range hunting and high country shooting and see if you opinion on what can and can’t be done and what math adds up. My point is you think that you have it nailed and you don’t every rifle bullet combo is different if it was simple math everyone could shoot that far and have no issues. Also this 90% rule is funny because 90% of hunters in the world could not pin the shots they take at game every year 9 out of 10 times at x range. But anytime a gentleman makes a shot like in this post all the trolls seem to rear their ugly head and chime in. Anytime you want to shoot you let me know. Do I have to wear special sun glasses in your presents just so I don’t go blind since I will be standing to the second coming of Jesus Christ? How many of those so called trophy’s were DIY on public land during a General season? Anyone with lots of money and a guide can shoot a trophy class animal. Does it look like I have a problem shooting oh great one? All targets below are shot off a bipod with a rear support with no walk in shots. 5-10 mph wind with a custom 7mm stw.  3 shots at 600 yards with factory Tikka T3 lite 300 wsm with 1 to 5 mph winds and 5 above zero.  First test group at 1000 yards with a Factory Rem 700 SPS 7mm mag bedded in a Hi-tech stock. Bull was used as a reference shooting for group. Geez look at that 3-5mph wind that night and they are in a nice group impossible I say. My wind meter must have been broken because we all know it is just simple math that it is not possible.   6mm-284 710 yards wind 5 to 10mph  Rcamulia I thought the wire shot was at me if it was not I am sorry. If you feel you need to say something by all means say it AZ has already said he is so much better then I. Now with the following posted I am not trying to brag but I am not going to get talked down to by someone who thinks they are better then me when they have no clue about what I have done or can do what shots I have made on game or on targets. I also do not consider myself a good shot. AZ if you are that much better then me only way to know is to prove it and the range here never closes. We can also prove it in the field. No guides wyoming general Elk season on foot in unit 56 or 59. I will even help point you in the right direction before we split off and see who comes out with what since you are the great white hunter you should be walking out with a 350 bull the first day on your back.  | |||
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Dakor: You accused me of being a “keyboard” killer, more or less. I only pointed out I have plenty or real world experience killing stuff and winning trophies. You are the one who brought it up, not me. As for stuff I shot on my own, without a guide, I count five bull elk (two 6 pt or better), five sheep, 13 caribou, a moose, a grizzly bear, five black bears, two mule deer, and a bunch of whitetails and antelope. All of the western game I shot while I was a MN resident, so it wasn’t in my backyard. The Alaska stuff I shot while I lived in Alaska while stationed in the Army, as well as trips back since. Today I do hire guides and have added to the totals above in addition to species you have to hire a guide to hunt. After all, you can’t shoot lions in Africa unguided. As for having money, well, if you really like to hunt, you find a way to make more. Or you do DIY hunts for the rest of your life. Your choice. | |||
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Rick, That is a cool jig for sure. With three point adj. to level the base plate a "v" block held in a drill press vise and a precision level. However I am a 25 year injection mold maker/toolmaker and when sombody states .001 in 6" on something that "bolts" on I ask "How?" I still don't know. I see the cocept but nee/want more. Crude but this is how I do it... The tools are the long plumb bob tool I use to allign the front ring with the rifles center line. The others are trivial except the power lapp tool. Putting the rifle in a vice I first level the ring top  This puts the rifle level with the black grid lines on the wall that are also level. I use these to square the cross hairs later.  This is the jig that I use to allign the front ring to the bore centerline. It is a long length of 1" CRS drilled and tapped for a hollow 1/4 20 set screw into a nylon line and a brass plumb bob is inserted  Here you can see the front is now on bore centerline  The pointed rear of the long centerline jig makes checking in the rear easy also.  Then align the rear ring with the front I like to use the flat ends of my point jigs as this gives me far more eyeball area  Then lap the rings in with a drill and 220 compound  The lap is just 1" CRS with a groove I cut in my lathe to hold the lapping compound. Drilled and tapped 3/8 16 with a long drill shank I made from welding a bolt to drillrod.  I then clean up the rings,oil the inside and drop in the scope aligning the scope with the level grid on the far wall. Tourqe up screws to german specifications (Goodantight) and your done. ________________________________________________ Maker of The Frankenstud Sling Keeper Proudly made in the USA Acepting all forms of payment | |||
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AZ nice trophy collection good for you. I have one more thing to say since my two suggestions for a challenge were dismissed. This is a long range forum if you don't like it don't come in here and if you have nothing positive or knowledgeable to say that can help a person out don't post. We don't care about what you think of long range hunting or what you think is possible or impossible. We will continue to hunt how we hunt and shoot how we shoot. As to the comment made several posts back for giving the anti's more ammo I find that funny because most bunny huggers don’t know the difference between hunting at 50 ft or 1000 yards they just know it is hunting. Notice the poster has not said much since he was flamed by a few? He built a specialized weapon and practiced then made a great shot and was hung out to dry one of the reasons I left this site for a while and went to long range sites where I didn’t have to hear what someone’s opinion on what possible or impossible was. Maybe worry about getting yourself in shape for your up and coming hunt and worry about getting your own shooting up to par. We will worry about us. Also AZ please pm me or post what magazine you write for so I make sure I never buy a copy or if I belong to one I can cancel it. Thank you. GA Sixgunner I think you should join www.highcountryshooters.com It is a nice site with a small town feel that us ND bull semen hicks like. Which I feel is hilarious being called from an old MN resident my guess is he lived around the cities because he sure has that cities I am better than you attitude and he is probably a Gopher fan to boot. | |||
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