quote:

Originally posted by jens poulsen:
Sometimes we want the challenged of the hunt by getting close, sometimes we want to challenge our shootingskills when hunting.

While hunting is NOT the time to challenge one's shooting skills by shooting at excessive ranges, that should be left for inanimate targets. Every animal deserves a clean humane kill and the farther the distance the less the likelihood of that happening. I have to wonder if this about the sport of the hunt or simply bragging rights about how long the shot was.

I've seen my buddy completely miss a standing coyote at 50 yards

I've completely missed coyotes at 100 yards

I've seen coyotes gut shot at 100 yards run off, never to be found.

I've seen friends shoot prarie dogs that crawl off back into the hole. I've seen me shoot prarie dogs that run back into their hole.

I've watched a buddy completely miss a buck at 100 yards. I completely whiffed one at 200.

Conversely, I've dropped a coyote at 934 and 800. Antelope at 578. Hit steel at 1760 (one mile). Matched course records at the SRM Whittington.

One man's unethical shot is another's chip shot. Depends on practice and experience.

Shot targets today unsupported seated at 560 and attempted a 9" plate at 760 the same way. Pretty close. Watched two friends shoot steel to 560 with the gun canted 90 degrees port up to develop the data and see if they could. 15 mph winds too.

One man's unethical shot is another's chip shot.

Most shooters here are in awe that some actually have a place to shoot at over 100 yards. They use their scope as a glorified iron sight; sight in and shoot game or targets without ever touching it. No clue what a target knob is for. No opportunity to find out what it is for nor any desire to do so.

Rifles and bullets are effective at far longer ranges and are capable of hitting small targets at ranges that would boggle the minds of 90% of the "box a year" hunter.

Like getting a Jeep with Lockers, lifted, huge tires and never taking it off the pavement.

One man's unethical shot is another's chip shot....

quote:

Originally posted by rcamuglia:
One man's unethical shot is another's chip shot....

There are two possibilities in that statment. IMO, there is no such thing as a 926 yard chip shot. That leaves the remaining possibility.

KB

quote:

Originally posted by DC Roxby:
We never get to see the videos of the animals with their jaws blown off and their guts hanging out.

We don't -- particularly from those too embarrassed to admit it happens at a lot closer ranges. There are more hunters out there who dust their deer rifles off the day before opening day and simply go hunting. They are ill prepared. The long-range guys tend to take their craft seriously and put the time in on the trigger -- at least that has been my experience.

Yesterday I saw someone put 5 rounds within a stationary 6" circle at 600yds and then follow that up with putting another 5-6 shots in a right to left to right, moving man's torso-sized cardboard target also at 600yds all with an inconsistent 10-12 mph crosswind.

I believe that some people know their craft and if they are well-practiced and confident in their abilities and their equipment, then others should keep their ethical dilemmas to themselves about the length of someone's shot unless they're familiar with that shooter and his accoutrements.

I've never heard any remonstrations regarding the ethics of a sniper taking a 2000+ meter shot and successfully killing/maiming someone in a military operation. In fact such an occurance is met with applause and awe. Take it out of a military context and put a beautiful, unsuspecting, furry animal on the receiving end and a fervor about how morally objectionable it is crops up regardless of the shooter's skillset.

I know that I would not take a 1000 yard shot at an animal, my weapon and skills are not honed for that. But I also know that it's not my place to criticize someone else that I do not know. Personally, I think it's unethical to lure in an animal with a feeder and ambush it at 50 paces with an artillery piece it but I won't tell that to the person who posts their kill on a webforum.

The OP made a clean kill. Good on him.

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:

There are two possibilities in that statment. IMO, there is no such thing as a 926 yard chip shot. That leaves the remaining possibility.

KB

Therein lies the entire point.

To you, a 926 yard shot is not a chip shot. To someone who routinely shoots accurately at that range and beyond, it is.

At my Range there are steel IPSC targets out to 760 yards. They are 12" tall and 9" wide. Me and my fellow competitive shooters routinely use them. It never fails just about any day I'm at the range, someone who is a club member will show up and scratch their head in bewilderment while asking what we are shooting at. They don't even know targets exist past what they can see with their naked eyes.

A couple of guys were shooting their deer rifles the other day. I was letting the barrel cool so I walked over to their bench for a chat. I asked them how it was going. One guy said, "We're shooting that steel gong out there at 300 yards."

I asked them where that was and they pointed to the 150 meter burm.

That describes about 90% of hunters, I'm sure.

So obviously only a small percentage of hunters know how to use their equipment to make a 926 yard shot. They have done the work and the shooting to make such a shot in the right conditions.

At the Sporting Rifle Match we have a station with a 875 yard plate on the side of a mountain across a valley and ravine. There are also plates at 260, 390, 420, 540, and 625 on that station. The targets must be engaged with one shot each in a 4 minute span.

Last month was the first month in 3 years that I missed that 875 yard plate. Wind call.

Apparantly there are those who have the skill and equipment to do it, and it seems the guy in the video is one. It looks to be a little more than simply a lucky shot.

It's one thing to be shooting steel gongs, and paper targets, and another shooting game animals at those long ranges. So what if you gut shoot a gong? Following up at the long range on a bad hit is near impossible. The probablility of a bad hit increases as the range increases.

Also, suppose there is a percentage of shooter who can do it most of the time. What percent? I don't know, but I'm sure it's small. Then there's Bubba, who need only slight encouragment to try it with his 30-30.

I just don't see the merit/satisfaction or whatever one gets from whacking some game animal at ridiculous ranges. I think it's just to kill something - ratchet up the gong thing a notch. It's the video game syndrome thingy to me. It's also likewise meaningless in the context of sport hunting. It crosses a line, which is rather intangable and hard to define, but I feel that whatever that line is, that it's crossed.

The first time I witnessed long range crap, shooting at game, was in the flat tops, in Colorado, after a good snowfall in the high country. We were able to get in the elk migration zone with my friend's Toyota, all four wheels chained. There were other guys ahead of us, shooting from the back of their pickup. We rounded the corner just as they were shooting at a herd of elk at least 800 yds out there, running of course. They shot maybe 25 times altogether, until the herd ran over the ridge out of sight. Nothing fell, so they drove on to stay ahead of us. We went to a good spot and walked over a ridge to watch and hopefully get a reasonable shot, at a reasonable distance. We could hear them shooting again and again on up the road.

So, you see, I have a very low opinion of the majority of so-called long range shooters of valuable game critters. They are not hunters in my way of seeing it. IMO, the frequency of the types I saw in Colorado far outnumber the marginally ethical persons, as you are trying to convince us exist.

KB

What jpl said.

KB,

What you saw was not a "long range" shooter or hunter, it was a Slob hunter and, yes, they outnumber all ethical hunters unfortunately. If you've never seen what jpl and I are describing, you really need to get out more

RC, I tend to agree with your last post, more than not, especially the getting out part. I would like to see and develop the skill, and have some equipment to make decent shots out there, say 400 to 500 yds. Maybe that doesn't seem very ambitious to you, but to me, at this time, maybe I'm more like some of the guys you described. Even though I currently have a rifle or two or three that can shoot MOA groups at 300 yds, I'm still not of the opinion that I -- personally -- should take up that sport -- on game. I would have to become very comfortable with it at the range, over a period of time, before trying it in the field, and then only in the right conditions.

With practice, I might try it for example, on hogs from a stand overlooking a powerline right-of-way, or other longshot possibility, with a good rest, with my 300 mag. However, I really doubt that I will ever be OK with 900 + yds shots at any game. That's what I mean - at some point it's no longer about the hunt or the game, it's all about the shot and the gear.

I am progressing - perhaps. A few years ago, I would have limited myself to 200 yds. Sometimes, I am actually surprised that the 300 yd range doesn't look as far away as it used to. Things change, and an accurate 300 WM has a tendency to bring about change in attitude, and perhaps confidence, but only so far.

KB

[QUOTE]

A couple of guys were shooting their deer rifles the other day. I was letting the barrel cool so I walked over to their bench for a chat.

I asked them where that was and they pointed to the 150 meter burm.

That describes about 90% of hunters, I'm sure.

QUOTE]

So you make a judgement simply because of their equipment and how far they were shooting?

How do you know that maybe their hunting accomplisments don't rival Marc Watts? or Craig Boddington? or Jack Oconnor?

Elitism at it's finest,

quote:

Originally posted by rcamuglia:
What you saw was not a "long range" shooter or hunter, it was a Slob hunter and, yes, they outnumber all ethical hunters unfortunately.

On second thought, I'm not so sure that I do agree with what you said there, about the ethical hunter. I think it depends on whether we are talking about hunters in general or so called long range hunters. Of course I don't have solid stats to prove it, but I think that the majority of "hunters" are ethical, by far a majority.

I also think that the precentage changes as the more extreme techniques are utilized. IMO, that applies to the use of sub-243 calibers and long range shooting for big game - deer size and bigger. It's a function of seeing what one can do to push the limits, rather than self-restricting to something near a sure thing. It all about rationalizations.

It's simple in a way to me. The more one gets his thrills out of pushing the edges, the more liklely to cross ethical lines, and rationalize it, especially when we are discussing the concept of "hunting", as opposed to simply "shooting" a critter as far out there as possible. With success at 926 yds, what's to stop the guy from trying a 1500 yd shot next time? And failure will mean little to nothing, except maybe a revisit to the tech dept at the gunsmith, and better gear. At what point does it stop occuring to guys like that, the old fashioned idea of get closer?

KB

quote:

So you make a judgement simply because of their equipment and how far they were shooting?

Not at all. You seem to have not gleaned the important part of that post.

I make the judgement not on their equipment or how far they were shooting.

The crux is that they said they were shooting the 300 yard gong and promptly pointed to it.

It was 150 meters.

So you know how far that is in yards?

Stupidity at it's finest....


KB,

It is a skill. It comes with the realization of what a rifle is capable of. You'll never come to that realization if you limit yourself to shooting at 300 yards. It's like anything; finding the limits entails pushing them in practice.

In no way am I recommending shooting at game at 700 yards if the longest inanimate target you've attempted is 300 yards. That should go without saying to anyone with a functioning brain.

Would the person I speak of attempt a climb of Eiger if the most difficult hike he'd ever completed was a stroll around his local park?

The same goes with long range shooting. Especially when a valued game animal is involved. The due diligence has to be done and it's labor of love.

Have the right equipment, learn shooting skills, load development, drop and wind data development and lots of trigger time and bullets downrange.

Also,

It's amazing that the folks who naysay on this subject have never tried firing a shot at a target over 300 yards!

That should be a giant Red Flag similar to this one to signal to anyone reading this about who posting here knows anything of which they're posting about!

quote:

Originally posted by Nganga:
[QUOTE]

A couple of guys were shooting their deer rifles the other day. I was letting the barrel cool so I walked over to their bench for a chat.

I asked them where that was and they pointed to the 150 meter burm.

That describes about 90% of hunters, I'm sure.

[QUOTE]

So you make a judgement simply because of their equipment and how far they were shooting?

How do you know that maybe their hunting accomplisments don't rival Marc Watts? or Craig Boddington? or Jack Oconnor?

Elitism at it's finest,

.

Quite convenient to edit out the original point of the post, huh naganga?

Here is my original post:

quote:

A couple of guys were shooting their deer rifles the other day. I was letting the barrel cool so I walked over to their bench for a chat. I asked them how it was going. One guy said, " We're shooting that steel gong out there at 300 yards. "

I asked them where that was and they pointed to the 150 meter burm.

That describes about 90% of hunters, I'm sure.

Pathetic!

Nope, I missed it.. I can admit my errors 300 yards vs 150 meters yep I did miss the point..

BTW....its BERM not BURM, pathetic