RC,

My long distance prowess is as follows,

A Kaibab Strip mulie at 474 yards. (214 inch)

A kudu in RSA at 410 yards

A Javelina here in AZ at 497 with a 22-250.

I do not have specialty equipment, just good normal stuff that I use enough to understand. I am not a range rat, hate the damn place, to noisy. I live in the wide open spaces and go shoot where I can see 100 miles.

I've read your posts all over this forum and see you dig an argument, I don't. I understand your marksmanship is better than mine, your equipment is most likely better as well. I simply think shooting at valued critters beyond distances outside their normal personal space, where they feel no danger from an object at 1000 yards makes all animals fear any object and makes the rest of our pursuits more difficult.

I hunted in a GMA in NE Zambia once with a PH that used his cruiser to chase shit, the place was very very difficult to hunt because the game was conditioned to fear a vehicle at long long distances. This will result in the same thing, animals that evolve a "safety zone" of beyond todays technology allows.

Steve

quote:

Originally posted by rcamuglia:
Also,

It's amazing that the folks who naysay on this subject have never tried firing a shot at a target over 300 yards!

That should be a giant Red Flag!

Well, I do admit that there is plenty of space in this discussion for me to be wrong. I also admit that it's a pretty recent thing for me to be comfortable with 300 yds. Actually that was a big step. I'll try to be open minded about this, but I can't even imagine confidence with a 900 + yds shot. It just seems like a lark to me.

It's really not an easy thing for me to shoot in a manner to actually test loads and the rifle at ranges greater than 300 yds. That's the furtherest distance of the range available, with a bench. There's a big berm at the end. Besides, ranges 300 yds and more require a really steady rest to distinguish variances in the load from variances in my ability.

Also, there is another matter. Suppose I discover that it is possible to confidently take shots longer than 300 yds, in the right circumstances? That could be good or not so good. I'll have to upgrade a lot of stuff that I like, or let it sit, or trade it off. Such a problem is too much to bear.

BTW, at a recent range session, I could hit the 300 yd gong easily with my 458, after a few sighter shots. That is fun.

KB

First of all that was a good shot, but that firearm is no pistol.

Second, jpl, you do not make a good case comparing sniping in war to hunting. Everytime an American (or American ally) kills an enemy soldier it is a good thing. If he wounds one and has the opportunity to kill some of his buddies trying to rescue him that is even better. I believe that some of these long range hunters believe they are Carlos Hathcock or worse yet the fictional Bob Lee Swagger. So IMO to compare snipers to hunters hurts your ethical case. Hunting is not military sniping.

Third, I have met rcamuglia. He is not your average shooter. He has one or more national championships in a shotgun discipline. To say he is an intense shooter is an understatement. If he has not done it yet, I would be willing to bet he will be the first to clean the targets on the steel plate match he shoots. However not every long range shooter is like him. I do not believe that in general long range hunters are better at their trade than the averge 150 yard hunter is. Most of the guys shooting deer at 150 yards are using rifles capable of shooting much further. Long range shooters are pushing the limits of their equipment. It is not often anybody loses a deer where we hunt. Most of these guys are not dedicated shooters but are good hunters within their known limits.

I have shot enough long range to understand what it takes to make wind calls. Elevation is relatively easy, but wind is difficult. My dedicated 1000 yard match rifle pushes a 200 grain SMK at 3000 FPS. I have shot matches that require 12 or more minutes of windage at a 1000 yards. Mis-judge by 1 1/2 minutes you go from a X to an 8 or a kill to a miss or a gut shot animal. My "home" range is easy. I know what expect because I shoot there often. If I go to a new range it is a learning curve on reading the wind. That is where I struggle with the long range hunting. How do you make correct wind calls at 900 yards? We can watch the mirage, OK. No wind flags, very little chance of having shot there before. You know how the wind is blowing at the rifle but not downrange.

At the end of the day there are guys that can make the shots. There plenty more who think they can but do not have ability nor the experience to know when not to shoot. That is why I belive there are more animals running around wounded than some people care to admit.

But each hunter must live with his own moral beliefs. I had a fellow hunter post I should be "hung" for hunting elephants. I guess each to his own.

Mike is right.

As everyone who shoots at "long range" knows, it is 100% about the wind. Load development is a crucial part of being able to succeed at long range. Developing a load that has little or no vertical is key. Once you have it, developing the drop data is pretty easy. You know the range then it's all about wind

As far as I'm concerned, this it where the "ethics" part of this discussion comes in applied to an accomplished, practiced, proven long range shooter.

In no wind situations and perfect still conditions, 1000 yard shots and longer are chip shots to the proven shooter.

When wind is present and the target is a protected valued big game animal, the "ethics" quadrant of the brain should be engaged. Like jpl says, every shooter has different abilities and this includes everything that goes into making the shot.

I too watched Ryan put 6 shots into a 6" circle at 600 yards on Sunday. What jpl didn't tell you is how amazing it really was.

The targets were stapled to a frame and presented to the shooter for maybe 15 seconds then lowered. The shooter dialed his dope and dealt with wind. The target was raised and 6 shots had to be fired in 30 seconds.

There is absolutely no feedback for the shooter in the way of the target coming down between shots and back up with a marker so an adjustment can be made. You do your best at calling the wind and fire the shots. What you get is what you get. His ability to call the wind is nothing short of remarkable. The mover was shot the same way. 6 of 6 on that in the wind we are talking about; up to 15 mph varying from 1 to 3 o'clock

If I was a mule deer and Ryan could see me in ANY conditions and distance, I wouldn't be safe.

Folks don't understand the work that accomplished shooters in ANY discipline put in. It's not luck, magic or anything else. I stayed after the match to work on some position shooting. I watched Ryan and Tate stay and shoot. They are two of the best in the country.

They worked on developing data with the rifle canted 90 degrees, port up. I watched them shoot many rounds at 330 without a hit until they figured it out. Then hits became regular. They move to 430 then 550 the same way.

Drive, dedication, and desire to master every aspect. Amazing to say the least

Oh yea, I forgot to mention another long range shooter that I knew when I lived in Eastern Colorado. This guy would brag, so that's how I knew about some of his exploits. He shot a 7mm STW, and had access to some of the land around Sterling, and in Nebraska too. His technique was to drive around looking with binoculars, and then a spotting scope. When he found a buck he liked he would shoot off a rest he made for the hood of his truck. Some got away, but those that didn't were nice animals. That's all mostly open country. That was "hunting" to him. He practiced on coyotes too.

But even that guy never mentioned 900 + yards. As I recall, 400-600 yds was his game.

He and the other guys in the flat tops are the ones who stick in my mind when I think of long range sniping at animals. Guys in the class of RC, and the few others mentioned, IMO, are not the norm, but they encourage the others.

KB

Call this whatever you want but it isn't hunting. I don't so much have a problem with the guys who have the skills and equipment and can pull it off consistently but I do have a problem with the videos and shows like "Beyond Belief" that do nothing but encourage those who have no business trying it. I find the militarization aspect of what is supposed to be hunting distasteful and I also believe that there is a lot of gutshot game out there resulting from this stuff that we never hear about.

I'll bet there are more crippled and lost animals due to "long Range" shots than have been recovered.That is true here in Wyoming on Antelope.F&G reports more Antelope will die from legs shot off than are recovered.
Folks make up for poor hunting skills with "long Range" shots. Thousands of dollars worth high tech rifles,scopes,range finders.
Learn to HUNT.It's hunting not shooting.
"Beat me up Snotty"

quote:

Originally posted by Randy Bohannon:
I'll bet there are more crippled and lost animals due to "long Range" shots than have been recovered.

Actually I'd take that bet.

There are more hunters who don't shoot enough to become proficient. There are more hunters like I describe who have no idea how far their target is.

It is precisely because they don't have the right equipment and skill because they are indifferent to practice.

It's the greater percentage of "Gomers" out there, not the amount of serious shooters perfecting their skill, that greatly increases the amount of wounded and never recovered game. And that applies to any range at which the shot is attempted

RC,

I am a very serious cyclist (bicycles), I've raced on and off for 20 some years at various levels of skill and competition. I meet people new into the sport almost every time Im out, I welcome the nube's into my sport, I ask them if they care if I ride along behind them. They without exception will say something like... you'll blow me away I can't keep up with you. I tell them, thats not the drill here, its to help you fall in love with cycling, I simply want to help you.

It seems to me that you beat a person to death with your credentials, distances and buzz words that are meaningless to the novice to prove your high level in this dicipline. You intimidate a new shooter....promise.

If I read you wrong my apology.

Steve

You read me wrong and apology accepted.

I'm merely stating my opinion that is formed from what I've seen and experienced.

You've never seen animals wounded at ranges under 200 yards? Ranges at which the vast majority of game is shot? I would conservatively estimate that 90% of big game is taken at that range. For ballpark figures let's say 1 million head of big game are shot per season, say 900,000 head of big game under 200 yards and 100,000 over 200 yards.

I believe that the schooled long range shooters shooting game at over 200 result in a fewer number of wounded animals than the other 900,000 shot by Joe Hunter who pulls his rifle out of the closet once a year, shoots enough to sight in (that's another whole story), and goes hunting.

Sure Joe limits his range, but couldn't tell you how far a target is within 50 yards. He also knows little about his rifle and how to even sight it in. He is even unfamiliar on how to adjust the scope for POI. He does so little shooting that hitting a paper plate at 100 yards is acceptable before the hunt.

An outfitter I know uses the "paper plate" test for his clients. I've seen these things myself.

You're telling me that Joe Hunter doesn't wound more than an accomplished rifleman regardless of range?

RC,
OK, I do understand. But, these shows....you know the ones, they IMHO do in fact make people believe that they can .....670..895...whatever, just dial-a-critter, dope the scope and squeeeeeze the trigger and you too can be a hero.

And yes, you are correct, there are those that no matter the equipment, range, practice there will be blood to be followed.

I've had those days, if you hunt long enough every single one of us will as well. BUT, the many heads of game I've killed, I try to close the distance to minimize any error, nerves or excitement that may make the difference in miss or worse yet a wound. We are in fact only human.

Our goals are the same, just different ways of achieving them.

Steve

I know the shows and we are in agreement about how to hunt. I never have gone into the field with a distance in mind at which to kill something. It just worked out the way it did for all the reasons in hunting.

The long range shows I used to have negative feelings about for the reasons you state. They are trying to sell a product package.

As far as going afield with a distance goal in mind, I have no problems doing so on coyotes and prarie dogs. If I see a giant mule deer or elk and it's way out there, at least I know I have the experience, equipment and ability to take it if I can't get closer.

As far as this thread and gasgunner's video and goal, it's obvious from the video and results that he has done the work to accomplish what he set out to do.

BTW, the biggest mule deer I've killed was with a .300 Winchester Magnum, 180 grain accubonds, and a drop data table hanging off the scope equipped with target knobs.

I shot him at 25 yards.

Savage action...not the prettiest, but the best.

Albatross.

quote:

Originally posted by Randy Bohannon:
I'll bet there are more crippled and lost animals due to "long Range" shots than have been recovered.That is true here in Wyoming on Antelope.F&G reports more Antelope will die from legs shot off than are recovered.
Folks make up for poor hunting skills with "long Range" shots. Thousands of dollars worth high tech rifles,scopes,range finders.
Learn to HUNT.It's hunting not shooting.
"Beat me up Snotty"

And you know, what about long range hunting? But you sure make a lot of wrong claims.