Quite a while back Michael458 and myself did a 500 New Exploration. This was a work up of pressure and velocity data for the 500 Nitro Express in one of my double rifles. We wanted to do a whole range of loads to help understand what would be safe in a double both BPE and Nitro. We learned we could get some really amazing velocites out of the 500NE safely in a double. We developed along with Cutting Edge Bullets (CEB) some really neat lighter weight bullets for the 500 NE and other .510 bore rifles.

The time has come to do the same type of research with the 577 Nitro Express. Because I love the 577 and have several Nitro and BPE guns we plan on doing a full range of loads for both. Again with the help of Cutting Edge Bullets I worked with Dan to come up with a lighter weight 577 bullet. CEB can now offer you a 600 grain Safari Raptor and a 650 Safari Solid to go along with the current standard 700 and 750 grain bullets. I also had Dan make tips for the Raptors because of the increased down range velocity. I saw in my 500 NE than these made a BIG difference in killing effect on animals.

If any of you 577 NE or BPE shooters have a favorite load you would like tested I will be happy to do so. This test may not come very fast as both Micheal458 and myself will be testing many new things on live targets in the next few months. Also I'm still waiting on my new Heym 577 double which I hope to have in a week to 10 days. We plan on doing a full range of both pressure and penetration tests with any bullets we can get our hands on. Also we will use original Kynoch 577 ammo as a baseline for safe loads. There aren't many different factory 577 loads available so if any of you have some you don't mind parting with I would like to test every available factory load.

Here are photos of the CEB .585 bullets. Pictured are the 600 gr Safari Raptor both tipped and non tipped, 650 gr Safari Solid, 700 gr Safari Raptor tipped and non tipped plus the 750 gr Safari Solid. You will notice that the nose projection of the lighter bullets is shorter than the original 700 and 750 bullets. Dan and I talked about this quite a bit and it was decided that we would shorten the nose projection so these bullets could be used in some of the 577 bolt guns like T-REX with a tip added. Also because of the large diameter of these bullets the 600 gr and 650 grain are not the same length. To get everything to work out right the length had to be different. This was done to keep the hollow point and remaining base of the Raptor in the same ratio as the 700 gr Raptor. We didn't feel like this would effect POI as the bearing surfaces are the same for all four bullets.

Sam

This ought to be fun
May I post my ponderings?
The Raptors have been awesome taking what was a more traditional .3 SD to a .2 SD and in a 577 that would make one damn stubby bullet but the tip would help. To get a .2 SD in a 577 you have to go to 500 grains and that would leave you all bands and no bore rider portion but identical bearing surface but imagine the velocity! What a PG or pig round! To keep the same volume in the case you would need to load all the bands inside leaving just the 13 degree portion and tip exposed. Methinks you could get around 2,600 FPS with a 500 grain 577. That is 460 WBY territory. Granted the BC would be horrible but you would have a good 200 yards to play with before leaving the shear velocity envelope. You would need a scope on your 577

NO!!!!!! I don't need a 577, I don't need a 577, I don't need a 577..............

quote:

Originally posted by Biebs:
NO!!!!!! I don't need a 577, I don't need a 577, I don't need a 577..............

Mayb you can get a custom barrel made for your R8

quote:

Originally posted by Biebs:
NO!!!!!! I don't need a 577, I don't need a 577, I don't need a 577..............

Seriously??? When is the last time you bought a rifle based on need?????

I see a 577 in your future!

Yes, the 577s are awesome, for sure. You touch one off, you rock back, the barrel go skywards, and the dirt pile backstop looks like someone set off a grenade. Ahhh...love it! :-)

Biebs,

Yes you do! Yes you do! I'll give you a deal on the new VC I have. I'm about ready to let it go for a song.

Sam

Sam, I'm sitting here looking at a 600 NE Verney Carron double, with 100 cases, 300 bullets and dies. I told you I don't NEED a 577 :-)

biebs,
yes you do yes you do yes you do yes you do

I'm with Biebs on this one. He is waiting for a .600.
Cal

Cal, it's in my gunroom here...already got it :-)

Biebs,

The fact is YOU need a double in EVERY caliber,
including ED HUBEL's 499 HE!!! Well, you can go
from 600 NE to 8 Bore, skipping the 700 if you
want to.

I am going to read this thread completely as I am
a big 577 NE enthusiast.

DR, I'm not a huge fan of the DR for most hunting situations, but the one place it makes sense to me is up close with very large animals. My interest in them starts at 500 NE and probably stops at the 577, my favorite. I think the weight of the 600NE puts it outside the limit of a realistic hunting weapon.

But don't you like collecting them, and shooting
them at the range with like minded fellows?

Most folks that are "Like-Minded" as me were institutionalized years ago :-)

Uh Oh!

Any chance for a lighter BBW #13 solid?

Sure all you have to do is call Dan at Cutting Edge Bullets. He will make anything you want for a price.

quote:

Originally posted by Biebs:
I'm not a huge fan of the DR for most hunting situations,

An interesting statement considering that the DOUBLE RIFLE is the one and only action type that was designed specifically as a HUNTING weapon from the start; all other types being originally designed as fighting weapons and later modified to the purpose of hunting!

There's no hope for you Biebs!

You do at least know that the "Proper" calibers for DG DRs starts with 500NE!!

quote:

An interesting statement considering that the DOUBLE RIFLE is the one and only action type that was designed specifically as a HUNTING weapon f

Yes, and well over 100 years ago at that :-) How's your horse and buggy running these days, Toddster? :-)

How long ago was the bolt action designed? Well over 100 years ago wasn't it?

Biebs,
We now have the upper hand on Todd. There is a picture of him SHOOTING AN R8!!

There are a few of us still at large and heavily medicated

quote:

Originally posted by pagosawingnut:
Biebs,
We now have the upper hand on Todd. There is a picture of him SHOOTING AN R8!!

I only did that because of Jines being the big mean tough dude he is, twisted my arm until it hurt. Really, it hurt real bad!



But ... I'm happy to report that I haven't changed my opinion of the Blaser. Obviously, just as with the double rifles, my opinion was well grounded in fact!

Must have been a bit embarrassing having that lowly Blaser outshooting all those other big-dollar shootin' irons! :-)

quote:

How long ago was the bolt action designed? Well over 100 years ago wasn't it?

Yes, it was...when the Germans discovered there were better ways to make repeating rifles rather than welding two single shot rifles together, like the British :-)

quote:

Originally posted by Biebs:
Must have been a bit embarrassing having that lowly Blaser outshooting all those other big-dollar shootin' irons! :-)

Who says the Blaser outshot the doubles?

I think it's time to face facts Beibs. The double gun design is just too much for you to handle!

Biebs are you selling. The 577?

Looking forward to this Sam.

Whatever you find with the 577 will certainly translate to the 600.

Thanks Sam and Michael

577NE. The king of double rifle calibers!

I suspect double rifles got their share of martial use in Kenya in the early '50's. And I bet they worked rather well.

Picked up the 577 today. I almost hate to glue that strain gage to it. The 577 is on top and my 500 is on the bottom. Already installed peep sight to the 500 and the 577 will have one soon.

Here are the first two shots out of the 577. Standard 750 gr SP at factory velocity. Target was shot at 30 yards standing offhand no rest,sticks or any support. The target is 5.5 inches in diameter. I think this baby is going to shoot.

Today Michael458 and I started the testing for this thread. We starting with the PT1 (Pressure Trace 1) and a baseline ammo to make sure we had a good strain gage and hook up. Both Michael and Myself have faith in the PT1 as being accurate and consistant. After verifying PT! we calibrated PT2 to give use very close readings to PT1. We used a baseline load of a 750 grain Woodleigh weldcore softpoint and a charge of 117 grains of RL-15. We used a wad made of foam backer rod to fill airspace in case. We also fired some original Kynoch cordite ammo to verify what we believe is the safe working pressure of a double. Any load going over 45000 psi we believe is above the original ammo used in doubles. I am not saying modern doubles aren't much stronger and can handle heavier loads than the early doubles but I believe that if we are going to post data it should be at or below original factory ammo for the caliber we are working with. Every original cordite loaded round we have tested with PT1 or PT2 has had a pressure of 44000 to 46000 psi. It doesn't matter if it was loaded in 1900 or 1920 or 1940 they all fall right in there. Even with hang fires from this old ammo the pressures were still right there at the 45000 psi mark. I think everone would feel safe shooting factory Kynoch ammo that looked like it had been stored correctly. There is a lot of this old ammo being used for dangerous game by PHs that have old period doubles.

Today I fired 68 rounds and Michael fired 8 or 10 rounds in my Heym 577 double with 26 inch barrels during our testing. I didn't plan on doing that much shooting but we were learning so much we just kept going and going. We did mostly pressure testing and load developement. We did shoot a few of the final loads for regulation checking and all loads shot very good. I have planned on putting a peep sight on this double like I have done on many of my doubles. The way I make peep sights I have to have a final regulating load before I make the sight because it is non adjustable. Knowing this and as bad as my eyes are getting I had purchased a Doctor reflex sight and got a mount from Chris at Heym for the sight. Now let me say I HATE putting a reflex sight or a scope on a double. I almost throw up when I see one on a beautiful double. Since I glued a strain gage to the barrels of my brand new Heym I figured in the interest of science I could live with a reflex sight for testing. After getting it sighted in with 3 or 4 shots I was impressed. The first 20 shots or so had made a ragged hole in the target. Boy there my be something to these sights I'm thinking, I felt bad actually liking it. Well went left the gun and went to load more ammo. When we came back the gun started shoot in a different place. Maybe it was just getting loose so I took it off and put it back on. Sight it in and sure enough it started walking on me again. So much for a reflex sight on a 577 or at least a Doctor. I went back to iron sights for the rest of the tests.

Now I have been shooting a 577NE double for several years and have many loads I felt were perfectly safe in my guns. From all the other tests Michael and I have done I felt the way I was loading the 577 was fine. NOT! This new Heym of mine has really tight chambers and are a little sticky and scratch the brass a little. They would not accept brass that had been fired in my other doubles even full length sized. We found that at about 42000 psi my Heym was holding the cases a little. Not hard to open but you could feel the stick of the brass. In my other doubles the brass would full from the chambers after being fired with the same loads we were using for tests. The Kynoch cordite loads didn't have this sticky feeling even though they were over the 42000 psi mark. This brass was smaller than the Jamison brass I was using. We used new Jamison for all our first test loads and then sized and reused it as I didn't have enough new brass for all the loads we tried.

I have always hated any kind of filler and our tests have shown that it is best to not use a filler if possible. The 577 has to have the powder against the primer for proper ignition. I have used Dacron, Foam backer rod and 28 ga fiber wads in the past with good results I thought. Right now I do not think I will use wads of any kind for anything other than reduced loads and don't want to use them then. Fillers, wads are not very consistant and we have shown this in other tests we have done. Foam backer rod seems to be the best of the bunch and the easiest to use.

My main hunting load that I have used for years was 120 grains of RL-15 behind a 750 grain bullet and one 28 ga fiber wad. This load shot really well in my 577s and never showed any issues of any kind. That load is too hot in my opinion. We found that the 117 grain load was right at the top. If you are pushing a 750 grain bullet out of 26 inch barrel more than 2050 fps I'd be very careful. No two guns are alike but in what we found I think this is about the limit for the 577NE in a double. This is about what the old English ammo makers said too.

The 577 NE is a wonderful weapon for dangerous game and at the velocity of 2050 fps with a 750 grain bullet it hammers the big stuff. So how do we improve of it with safe pressures. We design a bullet to increase the performance. When we did the 500 NE Exploration I wanted to improve the performance of that caliber and did by making a lighter bullet and increasing velocity way above what we thought was possible with a 500 NE at safe pressures. So knowing this I had Dan at CEB design a lighter BBW#13 nose profile bullet to see if we could get the same results we got from the 500 NE. I chose a 600 grain Safari Raptor and a 650 grain Safari Solid. I shortened the nose profile from the 750 grain bullet so we could take up as much of the case capacity as we could to limit the need for a filler. These bullets turned out very nice but did not give me quite what I wanted. I think they will work great and the loads we came up with regulate right with the 750 grain loads. Velocity was disappointing but nothing to stick your nose up at. Michael is working on all the data and I hope he will get most of it posted soon. We got a tremendous amount of data todat so it may take some time to post it all. I can't remember all the figures especially after being punched 68 times today by a 577.

We also tested some reduced load today that a lot of people use in black powder guns. I think you will be interested in seeing how high some of those pressures are and I think are beyond the limit of a BPE gun. I plan on developing some safe BPE load during these tests. Agian I want to offer that if any of you are using a load you like or have something you want tested please let me know. I would also like to test any factory loads you might have. I'll be glad to buy any factory ammo that you can spare a couple of rounds of.

I hope you enjoy the coming information.

Sam

Thanks Sam,
that's fabulous information!
Look forward to the next chapter,
Peter

Have any target pictures of your test loads?

Sorry no target photos yet. I hope to have peep sight made soon and I will shoot some groups.

68 rounds from a 577 nitro over a bench....

Sam, you are a man of steel

Looking forward to the results of your testing.

Alittle punch drunk too!

quote:

Originally posted by srose:
Alittle punch drunk too!

You sure that's not from the 150 proof blueberry juice?