You are really pushing that OBUMMERCARE program with this exercise!!
Wishing you a speedy recovery...and some pictures!!
Cheers,

I loade up some 650 grain cast bullets today for practice loads. I used a 118 grains of H4831SC with a fiber wad on top of powder. This load shot great but left way too much unburnt powder in the barrels. Powder grains were all in the action after ejecting. This load will not work so back to the drawing board. Its a shame because boy did it shoot. Target was shot at 30 yards offhand standing no sticks.

This next target was shot a total of 16 times. Shots were from 30 yards standing offhand no sticks. I was shooting about as fast as I could but I had to blow powder grains out of action after each firing. Total of 12 practice 650 cast loads and the last four were full power 750 grain TSX loads.

Recoil on the 650 cast loads was just about perfect for practice loads. They kicked about like a 12 ga shotgun and were fun to shoot. The full power loads had more recoil than I want for extended practice shooting. The target is a 5.5 inch Shoot and C. I like this target because the front beads covers it at 50 yards.

Sam

I don't know how in the hell you could hold that damned thing up for that many shots without some assistance............ Thing must weigh in at 20-25 lbs... Feels like it anyway...

H-4831 was not burning? We only had one load we tested with with H-4831, and it held lots of promise
as for pressure/velocity??? Using cheap primers again????? HEH......

Hi Double rifle people....!

Look here, I have the data posted on the B&M site as always, under "Additional Research", scroll down to the bottom and you will see the pdf document, can download, or can open a new tab and view.

Here is the link to that page so you don't get lost.....

http://www.b-mriflesandcartrid...tional-Research.html


As we continue research on this I will keep the data updated... if you notice in the name of the document, 9112013.. that is the date posted, you see that change, then the data is updated..........

Michael

Michael its all relative, you carry a 6 lb single barrel and I carry a 12 lb double barrel.
The H4831 load shot well but those unburnt powder grains are a no no in a double. I will be trying some other powders today to see what I can come up with. Once you get back from OZ we can pressure test what I have. Since I have several black powder (BPE) guns in 577 I want to find the perfect powders to get the right velocity with low pressures. As we have found in other tests, velocity and pressure are relative too. It is hard to get those old English BPE velocities with modern powders without having too high of pressures. There are some interesting powders out there to be tried. Really interested in seeing what a case full of trailboss is going to do!

Sam

Sam:

Why not just work up a good load for the 750 grain CEB bullet and the 700 grain Raptor? Either one of those would work on a buffalo and the solid would be great elephant medicine.

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:

I don't know how in the hell you could hold that damned thing up for that many shots without some assistance............ Thing must weigh in at 20-25 lbs... Feels like it anyway...
Michael

Because he's not soft like you.

HTFU

Dave,

A couple of reasons. When I dropped down in weight of bullet in my 500NE I got a big increase in velocity and a reduction in recoil. With the Non Conventional CEB bullets there is no problem reducing weight. I found that the 510 grain solids actually out penetrated the 570 grain solids with a lot more trama. I am trying to do the same thing with the 577NE. I thought the 650 grain would be a good weight but now think I should have gone down to maybe 600 grains for the solid and 550 grains for the non con. Anyway a 650 grain solid going at 2160 fps is going to do just fine. Penetration tests will show if I am correct.
I do have good loads with the 750 grain CEB and I can fall back on them if I need to.

Sam

quote:

Originally posted by srose:
Dave,

A couple of reasons. When I dropped down in weight of bullet in my 500NE I got a big increase in velocity and a reduction in recoil. With the Non Conventional CEB bullets there is no problem reducing weight. I found that the 510 grain solids actually out penetrated the 570 grain solids with a lot more trama. I am trying to do the same thing with the 577NE. I thought the 650 grain would be a good weight but now think I should have gone down to maybe 600 grains for the solid and 550 grains for the non con. Anyway a 650 grain solid going at 2160 fps is going to do just fine. Penetration tests will show if I am correct.
I do have good loads with the 750 grain CEB and I can fall back on them if I need to.

Sam

Sam,

This is great stuff and I think you and Michael got a taste of the "lighter is better" when you tested various bullets in my 600OK.

Michael mentioned that he was surprised by the good penetratin of Robgunbuilders 733 grain "Crayola" bullet despite its tiny meplat and its lighter weight (compared to the traditional 900 grainier).

Looking forward to following your progesss.

Good stuff Sam, thank you.

Sam- how is the recoil with the 650 gr at that speed??
I was interested in your comments about the 500NE and recoil reduction ,,,how much, maybe 10%, 20%??
Have you done any work like this with the 470??
You gave me one of the 470 bullets you were working with at SCI in Reno at one of the AR cocktail parties several years ago....still sits in a prominent place, I see it every day...don't know what it weighs??
Interesting work!!
Cheers,

CCMDoc, Thanks and Yes that beast of your's was impressive. The shape of the nose of a bullet has a lot to do with penetration as well as the meplat dia. Some bullets go straight even with a smaller meplat but some go crazy.

470EDDY, Recoil is lighter than with the 750's but I have no way of saying 10% or 30% just easier to handle.
I never went very far with the 470 after our first tests. Michael and I didn't have any lighter bullets for it at that time. Remember the bullet you have was one of the first BBW#13s made. Your bullet is probably a 500 grain. Now that there are some lighter .474 bullets I no longer own a 470 so I have not tested them. Go to bigger and better things I guess.

Sam

quote:

Originally posted by 505G:

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:

I don't know how in the hell you could hold that damned thing up for that many shots without some assistance............ Thing must weigh in at 20-25 lbs... Feels like it anyway...
Michael

Because he's not soft like you.

HTFU

I am older than he is too..........

Sam, since you're doing all this work with doubles I have a real itch to get a lighter CEB to regulate in my 500. I tried the 510 briefly but at 2200+ it crossed by 4 inches at 50 yds. I was using RL 15. Short of sending the gun to be re regulated by a competent smith with that kind of experience any ideas? I can't imagine since regulation seems to be bullet weight,barrel time and velocity. Anyone have a hidden trick I'm missing? Sorry if this is a bit off topic(near miss like my shooting) Jim

Jim,

It all depends on how well regulated the gun is to start with. Some guns do cross with lighter bullets and if you can't gain velocity with the lighter bullet then you might as well stick with the heavy bullet. I've had great luck with the 475 and 510 gr CEBs in my Heym and Sabatti 500s. If you are crossing you need more recoil or less velocity. I was able to get 2288 fps out of 24 inch barrels with the 510 gr solid and low pressures. You might try a slower powder than RL-15 to give you more recoil. Michael and I worked up some great loads with W760. Michael shot them perfect where I was shooting wide with them so I went back to RL-15. Michael holds a gun like a gorilla and I hold one kind of relaxed. Play with some different powders and see what happens.

Sam

Sam, Thanks for the ideas. I'll try some 760. Have some and 510s on hand. Would love to push a 510 at 2300 or more if I can get a load that will regulate. Factory Federal with 570 Barnes regulate very well( but where's the fun in that? 570s with 93 gr RL15 work great(hammered an elephant quite well). But I'd like to try a the lighter, quicker bullets. I'll let you know how it works. Thanks. Jim

quote:

Originally posted by srose:
Michael holds a gun like a gorilla...

Well I'm about ready to do some more testing. Had to send my Heym to JJ Perodeau to have the firing pins adjusted and chambers recut. The chambers were very tight to the point that I didn't even have to resize the cases. A bullet could not be pressed into a fired case by hand. I'm sure this added pressure and may be why my old standby loads seemed a little hot. JJ did a great job and got the gun back to me quickly. Chris at Heym made it happen and I'm thankful to have my gun back. Have a hunt coming up shortly and really want to use this 577.

I got my peep sight made today. I made it a little longer than I normally do to get the aperature closer to my eye. Wow this made a big difference in how much more field of view I have. Still have a little finish work left to do on the sight and then I'll bead blast it. Blue it up and I'm ready. Also made a blank to fill the rear sight dovetail slot. Here is a photo of the sight.

I sent srose a pm and wanted to bring something up for future testing, I am not well versed in doubles but do enjoy them and its on the list!

I know when Michael and Sam conducted the 500 exploration they did some BP loads with triple 7 and and others, and for my self these have been my go to powders in my 54 cal percussion guns, though recently I picked up some of Alliants Black MZ, to give it a try.

Well this is were it get interesting I saw my velocities stay consistent within 20-30 fps of each shot, accuracy was fantastic, all very similar to the other substitutes besides one thing cleaning. BP is dirty and can be down right a pain in the ass, well with all of this Black MZ we shot over 80 shots (110 grains) without patching once,and could have kept going. The barrel patched out with 4 patched, 2 wet, a dry and an Essox soaked patch, it was visual inspected with a bore scope and it was spotless. No hard fouling like triple 7, just was extremely impress-pressed, all shots were fired with 420 grain full caliber slug, so fouling normally is an issue after 3 or 4 shots.

I think this may be a viable option for the BPE rifles and the 577, gives you all the smoke of real BP about 30% less flame and the least temperature sensitive powder out there, along with being the cleanest I have shot

Well I got my peep sight finished and after a little tweeking of loads got it about like I want it. The target shown has 8 shots in it at 25 yards and four different weights of bullets. These were 600 grain CEB Safari Raptor, 650 grain Safari Solid, 700 grain Safari Raptor and the 750 grain Safari Solid. The two wide shots are the 750 grain CEB Safari Solids. Got to do a little more work on that load. Overall I'm starting to like this gun! HEE HEE I also worked up a 650 grain cast load that will touch each other dead center of the bull. I will be pressure testing agian this coming week and will post load data then. Also when I sent this gun off to have it worked on it came back with strain gage torn off. So its back to the drawing board with all the first data. I will have to shoot all that over to be sure I have good data with the new gage.
After shooting 38 rounds today I'm a little beat. I shoot my doubles!
Sam

Sam,

I bet you'd be nearly if not just as accurate if you screwed out the peep and sighted through the resulting hole in the mount.

CCMDoc, I'm way ahead of you. I use the aperature for load work and screw it out for hunting. I used this same setup in Australia last year and it worked perfect. So much faster and more accurate than express sights. I know it doesn't look as good but it makes my poor eyes see the front sight clearly.

Sam

quote:

Originally posted by srose:
CCMDoc, I'm way ahead of you. I use the aperature for load work and screw it out for hunting. I used this same setup in Australia last year and it worked perfect. So much faster and more accurate than express sights. I know it doesn't look as good but it makes my poor eyes see the front sight clearly.

Sam

Come to think of it, it may have been you who suggested it to me!

All good my friend and I like that setup much better than some of the electronic/fiber optic sights I've seen. Not criticizing those who use them - I just like your solution better.

HEH HEH Doc! I tried a Doctor reflex on this 577 and it lasted a few rounds. Not for me and I was sick putting that thing on a double. The peep sight really works great!

Did a lot of testing today at Michael's lab. Shot another 80 rounds or so of 577. We basicly had to start all over because my chambers when I got the gun were too tight and I had to send it to JJ to be recut. Our original strain gage didn't make it through the operation so I attached another and we started over. We had our baseline load of 117 grains of RL-15 with a 750 grain Woodleigh and one original Kynoch cordite load to calibrate the new gage. We started with the RL-15 ammo that we had loaded for the other test work so we had good data on that load to compare. Now I knew as tight as my other chambers were that we were going to lose a little pressure and velocity with the new larger chambers. After firing the first few rounds I was telling Michael we had a bad gage, screwed up computer or wet ammo. WOW what a difference a few thousanths of an inch make. I couldn't not believe what we were seeing. So I had some new baseline ammo I had load a couple of days ago with the very same RL-15 and Woodleigh bullets. Let's try this I said. Same thing, same velocity and pressures but not even close to the original data. Now what do we do? We set up PT1 (Pressure Trace 1) that we both know is accurate. Shoot again same thing. OK this isn't right something is wrong. Hook back up to PT2 and fire the remaining original Kynoch cordite load that always shows me how good that ammo was. It is always spot on with pressure and velocity. Pressure was a tad higher than the tight chamber gun but velocity was within 6 fps of the other four rounds we had fired on our first test. Now I'm really screwed up, I know the gage and computer are right or as close as you can get it. Here is why I can't figure this out. Now I am not looking at the finished data but I'm going to give you the approx difference in the RL-15 loads fired in the same gun but with slightly different chambers and I do mean slight. The only change is chamber diameter and throat length but we have the same barrel. The original 117 gr charge of RL-15 with a 750 gr Woodleigh soft gave us 1982 fps and 40208 psi in the original chamber now gave use 1750 fps and mid 20000 psi. WHAT! Oh and the Kynoch load was 2050 fps give or take a few and around 50000 psi. We shot it over and over and started going up in charge to see what it would take to get back to the original velocity of 1982 fps. Yes we use foam fillers, fiber fillers and different seating detphs to see what was going on. The 117 gr RL-15 load with a 28 ga fiber wad had given us higher pressures and velocity in the original test 2031 fps with 44158 psi and 2091 fps and 51622 psi, but now it didn't seem to matter what we did we just could get it beyond 1950 fps. You remember our saying "your powder isn't my powder" well now even more than I ever thought "Your chamber isn't my chamber" and "Your gun isn't my gun". I am still having a hard time with all of this but I will say that without the Pressure Trace system I surely wouldn't have a clue. Just a chrono doesn't let you see what is really happening. Like we have said before filers cause lots of issues and you can really see this on the pressure curves. Loose powder does the same thing. I'm saying that I really believe that you need a powder that fills the case to compression with no filler of any kind to get very consistant loads. Not that you can't get a good shooting load using the other methods. After all this back and forth mind numbing shoulder banging stuff we did end up coming up with some good loads but we will not post the data because I see now why most reloading manuals show max charges that are lower than what most of us know can be increased in some guns. Seeing how much difference was in my gun by just a slight chamber size difference I do not want to post any data that might be way over pressure for some other gun. None of the loads we tested today or in the first test went over what the original Kynoch ammo did so I feel good about what we have done. We didn't get around to testing all of what I wanted to today but we did find some really good stuff especially for cast bullets and possible BPE loads. I've got a real ringer with a 650 grain cast LBT bullet using Rl-15 that regulates perfectly in my gun. It is very mild and gives below BP pressures with good velocity. I now also have my gun shooting 600, 650, 700, and 750 grain bullets in a tight wad at 25 yards plus the light practice cast loads still in the same wad.
I know all of this is a lot to take in and Michael and I will post what we feel is good data for you after we have gotten it all figured out.

Sam

The one target was not changed thru the tests, that's a lot of shots.

Here are a few of the loads that I found interesting.
78 grains of IMR4198 a 650 grain Woodleigh BPE bullet and dacron filler gave us 36258 psi and a velocity of 1799 fps. This is a load many people use in BPE guns and I think it is very high pressure for those guns. Velocity is about right and probably why it shoots good. Pressure using Dacron was almost 6000 psi over using a fiber wad filler with the same load.
I also tried a load of 100 grains of IMR7383 which is a military surplus powder with a lot of bulk to it and fills the cases nicely. This was aslo with a 650 Woodleigh BPE bullet and we missed the velocity on this load but pressure was 23933 psi which is right in the black powder range. It shot a little wide so velocity was a little low. This powder was very dirty and smelled awful after firing. Still might work for practice loads in a nitro gun but probably will be too high of a pressure for BPE guns unless a lighter bullet is used. Its still worht looking into a little more.
The ringer load which shot perfect in my gun was 82 grains of RL-15 with two 28 gauge dry fiber wads and a 650 LBT cast bullet. Velocity was 1500 fps and pressure 18633 psi. Now for years I've used a fiber wad soaked in melted bullet lube to back my cast bullets so I tried this too. I use a thin cardboard wad made from milk cartons between the bullet and the grease wad to prevent the grease wad from sticking to the bullet. This kills accuracy if it happens. OK so using a dry fiber wad on top of powder then a lubed fiber wad with a milk carton wad on top of that gave a pressure of 15777 psi but we missed the velocity. These lubed wads make leading also non exsistant. I did not shoot the lubed wad load for regulation but the two dry wad load shoots perfect. Wonderful practice load.

quote:

Originally posted by srose:

(1) I'm saying that I really believe that you need a powder that fills the case to compression with no filler of any kind to get very consistant loads.

(2) Pressure using Dacron was almost 6000 psi over using a fiber wad filler with the same load.

+1

I poured a chamber cast today and I think I know why the pressure and velocity dropped so much after recutting the chambers. The throat is now about .500 long and the throat of my other 577 I had was .250 long. I wish I would have poured a chamber cast of my Heym chambers before sending it off to have it rechambered. I'm not sure what the standard length is and if someone knows I'd like to know. Most chambers have a throat length a caliber long but that may have changed over the years. Usually big bores aren't effected too much by small changes but this throat length really changed this gun.

Sam

Great stuff! By the way, I DON'T need a 577, I DON'T need a 577, I DON'T need a 577.......

Biebs I'll give you a deal on a real pretty one!

No!!!!!!! I DON'T need a 577, I DON'T need a 577, I DON'T need a 577......

quote:

Originally posted by srose:
I poured a chamber cast today and I think I know why the pressure and velocity dropped so much after recutting the chambers. The throat is now about .500 long and the throat of my other 577 I had was .250 long. I wish I would have poured a chamber cast of my Heym chambers before sending it off to have it rechambered. I'm not sure what the standard length is and if someone knows I'd like to know. Most chambers have a throat length a caliber long but that may have changed over the years. Usually big bores aren't effected too much by small changes but this throat length really changed this gun.

Sam

Sam,

Is it too long now or is it just the way you wanted it?

BTW - that's some mighty fine shooting!

Sam- call Chris at Heym USA and I am sure he can tell you or find out. Might want to tell him what year rifle was built in case they have changed the specs??
Surprised at this difference, almost seems too low!!
Man, I don't know how you take the pounding from that 577!!
I only know one other guy that does that....Ben Pearson from Atlanta with his H&H Royal....and now his 600 Nitro too!!
Cheers,

CCMDoc, The problem with the longer throat is that I lost so much velocity but the chambers were way too tight from the start so I had to do something.

470EDDY, the gun was built for me this year and I just got it. The chambers were too tight so I had to send it to JJ for repair. Chris is fully aware of it because he is the one who helped me get it fixed in a hurry. Leaving for Africa in a few weeks. Oh I'd rather shoot my 577 than a 470 anyday.

Sam

GO FOT IT....HAVE A GREAT SAFARI!!

Cheers,

Did a little more testing today and we were able to find some really good loads for the 750 grain CEB Safari Solids. I was a little unhappy after recutting the chambers of my gun and then losing so much velocity. Now I'm much happier with what we came up with today. There are some really outstanding powders for this cartridge. One standout was RL-22, it filled the case so no filler was needed and gave proper velocity with a nice safe pressure. IMR 4350, IMR 4831 and H4831SC show some results but I think H4831SC shined over the other two. We also did something I want to try with RL-15 and got great results. I had an old load that worked really well in my other 577s but in the new chambered Heym it was very low velocity and pressure. Well as we know if you compress a powder you get more pressure and better ignition so I put 5 nitro card wads on top of this powder charge and crammded the heck out of it. It just goes to show again that loose powder doesn't work too good. My velocity came right back up to what it was in the other guns or really close. This should let you know that you better be careful going from loose powder to putting a wad or different bullet on top of it.
Another powder I really have been wanting to try was Hybrid 100 V and it took the show. Having no data for it we started low and worked up slowly. This powder probably gave us the best results yet of any powder tested. We aren't finished with it either. Again loose powder verses compressed powder made a difference. This powder does not compress easily and I buldged several cases. It a fine line between loose and compressed with this one. You have to have you wad collum right. Pressure curves with this powder were really nice and ES was tight. More to come on this powder.

Sam

If the 650 grain CEB solids plow into the skulls
of elephant as well as, or better than, 750 grain
Woodleigh solids, I'd say we have a winner!

Srose,

Reloder 22 is one of my favorites for all the reasons you stated. I hate adding extra stuff. Primer, powder, bullet. That's it for me.

Try Accurate (not IMR or Hodgdon) 4350. I promise you'll like that too.

Like Sam, I was very very pleased with yesterdays results..... We are learning quite a bit about these big cases, and just exactly what needs to be done to get good results. I like consistency, and 577 NE is very sensitive to this, finding we have to get some compression to get consistency between rounds. It is just not acceptable to me to have 4000 PSI difference or more at these low pressures, 35000-45000.... just don't work for me. Yesterday we had some extremely good results with RL 15 commpressed, H-4831 no fill, IMR 4350 with 2 card wads, RL 22 no fill, Hybrid 100 showing excellent potential. Data gathered yesterday is suitable for published use as well. I will be inputting this data into the data sheets today. In addition there are some very interesting Pressure traces I want to show you guys, but I have to get them off of the PT2 computer and onto a computer I can print the reports out, then scan them back into a jpg to post..... So a bit of effort to get them out..... PT 2 is not set up to print.

Doing data like this is very time consuming, however it can be extremely rewarding on some days, and very enlightening as well. Yesterday was one of those very rewarding days I think...........

Congrats Sammy, I think we are onto the magic formula now............... Of course, we can always do some "Blending" if you want??
HEH HEH............

Michael

CCMDoc, Accurate XMR 4350 is a good powder and it is a lot slower than either H4350 or IMR 4350 so it should work well. I've got a bunch of it and may try it later in the 577. I've got some really good loads to hunt with now so not going to do much more testing before the gage comes off. If anyone has a load you want tested get it to me soon because week will be it for testing. After I get back from my hunt I may put another gage on to try some more of the BPE loads.

Sam

Srose,

I take it you're liking the light-for-caliber bullets in your big bore doubles.

What would you suggest in terms of weight for the 600?

As an aside, I just picked up some Trail Boss. I am grinning just thinking about how much fun that will be in the 600.

CCMDoc,

I would think a 600 to 700 grain would be just about right for the 600NE. I'd probably go to the lighter side as I wasn't able to do in the 577 that I did in the 500. I'm thinking I may go down to a 500 and 575 grain in the 577NE to get those velocities on up to 2300 or better. Still a lot of thump.

Sam