quote:

Originally posted by carpetman1:
Kabluey--Somewhere else you posted your wife left you. I fully believe that and figure he had all kinds of reasons to leave you.

okay, that's just personal and out of line.

Jessesso--Calling someone a liar is not personal and out of line? Kabluey did post his wife left him. I added my opinion the way he adds his false opinions to what others post.

CM,
is that a "he did it first" thing?
I stepped in on the part where he did NOT call anyone a liar, but did feel they stretched the truth.

we're texans.. tall tales is a way of life, but lying aint, right?

if we wish to be factual and on topic, he doesn't believe in shooting deer with a 223. Not likely anyone can convince him of that, and he's keeping to his opinion, in small bores, about 223, regards of others experience.

bringing his wife into it, and trying to draw a personal insult is way out of topicacality.

Jeffeosso--No it's not a he done it first. It is a he does it all the time. Not just with me, but several others. I make posts based on actual experience and what the actual results were and he calls me a liar. That's not personal? Read his tagline and his agenda is obvious. He in fact posted on another thread his wife ran off. I didn't post it as a quote but paraphrased him. He removed it from personal to public by posting it.

quote:

I would prefer to see people use a 243 or larger, but, until or unless states enact regulations specifying the size or power level of cartridges to be used for deer hunting, the 223 and 222 will remain a popular caliber with some folks and in some localities.

CrazyhorseC
having been on the board I can tell you our states reasons. It started because it allowed poor folks to use whatever they had. It comes up now and then over the years, but.... The state sees a drop in lisence sales almost every year. The push is to get more kids hooked on hunting to be able to continue things as is. This is a right to hunt state, any unposted land is open to hunting and fishing. If you dont get kids interested at a very young age, they are lost to the 1001 other things available now. you cant get kids interested if they get a rifle they cant shoot enough to be comfortable with. The board feels no more deer are lost to small calibers then by those that flinch, shoot to far out of their ability etc.

Whatever. I see things done in the political arena that make no sense - all the time. There is nothing that moves the hearts of a politician more than some whiner lobbying "let's do it for the kids, their future is at stake". Works every time.

You got a tripple whammy going - the children, the poor, and declining licensing. What politician could possibly say: "wait a minute, what about ethics?" I can't imagine a politician who will stand on an issue based on ethics, in the face of a tripple whammy whiner.

KB

My word KB, do you work at being a horses ass or does it come naturally? You are just one who if you cant have the last word you go off pouting. My reply was directed to CHC, and you just couldnt leave it.
I was going to write a PM to you and debate things all you wanted, instead, your going on ignore for the time being.

tb40,
Put me on ignore if you want to, but I'm not planning on putting you on ignore, so I can continue to respond to your posts for others to see. Heck, ya already got your head up yer arsh, so you won't miss much.

I think it's common knowledge that just because no law is passed doesn't mean chit, due to the fact that politicians want to look good, and get re-elected, so they pick their issues and fights very carefully. A few wounded deer mean nothing when votes are at stake. The vocal one - squeeky wheel syndrome - prevails every time. If responsible sportsmen showed up, and spoke out and made votes at stake, the outcome may be different. It's apathy, vs emotion.

KB

Not knocking bow hunting, I do find it very contradicting when a bow is legal and a .22 centerfire is not.

quote:

Originally posted by carpetman1:
Not knocking bow hunting, I do find it very contradicting when a bow is legal and a .22 centerfire is not.

If anyone but you, CM, said something like that, I would be shocked.

Let me remind you of a little history lesson:

“The bow and arrow are known to have been invented by the end of the Upper Paleolithic.” http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_archery


“The earliest potential arrow heads date from about sixty-four-thousand years ago in the South African Sibudu Cave. By 16,000 BCE flint points were being bound by sinews to split shafts. Fletching was being practiced, with feathers glued and bound to shafts.” http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bow_and_arrow


They say the stone age hunters wiped out the last of the mega fauna in N.A. The tools modern bow hunters have are so far advanced from that so it's hardly a comparison. I would say respectfully the hunters of olden times were real hunters. And modern bow-hunters follow in those ancient foot steps, only with modern technology.

As a killing tool, the bow and arrow has proven itself for perhaps longer than 60,000 years. Given the longevity of its use, I think most likely it's the most significant weapon invention of all time, as it relates to its use by humanity and the course of history.

The 223 pales in comparison in its significance in history. Although the 223 is more effective in battle, because of its ease of use, rate of fire, and its ability to wound at much greater range, neither of those battle advantages is much use in hunting situations. A broad head in the vitals will kill a brown bear in seconds, where a 223 will merely piss him off.

There's little to argue about there, and little excuse for your bewilderment.

KB

if someone was talking about shooting deer with a judo point that would be the same as a 22.cal they are made for the same game.

quote:

Originally posted by MT:
if someone was talking about shooting deer with a judo point that would be the same as a 22.cal they are made for the same game.

May I add - with a 35lb bow.

KB

I get it, how long something has been around determines it potency. .25ACP came out 1905 so it is better elk gun than 30-06.

Now you're catching on.

KB

The 223 shooting the non con bullet is now a deer cart thanks to all involved on the terminal bullet performance thread and Cutting Edge Bullets Co. This was from a wssm but I'm sure similar performance from the 223.
This is a quote from that thread.

Quote


Not much time, you know it's dark here, and I am headed for the roost! But I had to relate another "Deer Murdering" reported to me just now by one of my close friends here. My buddy here shot a big 8 point this afternoon at 150 yards with his Winchester M70 223 WSSM. I had loaded some 55 gr BBW#13 NonCons for him at 3700 fps. It's another "Bang Flop" story. Dropped to the shot, never moved. Shot was behind the shoulder going through lungs. Seems there was about a 2 inch diameter hole through and through, everything in between totally destroyed, everything exploded inside, including heart. John told me the 8 point hit the dirt so quick that when he got to him his front legs did not fall as quick as his head and both front legs were up in his antlers! I reckon he dropped so quick his head fell faster than his legs! LOL............ He said it was incredible trauma inflicted. Stone cold before he could hit the dirt.

Excellent job to all!

Good Night!
Michael

http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html

Question:

Wouldn't a 62gr Barnes bullet at 3550 MV out of a 22-250 or 220 Swift produce similar results?

KB

In a word no.
If you read the terminal performance thread you will see. The brass petals tear up the vitals a lot more and almost guaranteed pass throughs.

quote:

CrazyhorseC
having been on the board I can tell you our states reasons. It started because it allowed poor folks to use whatever they had. It comes up now and then over the years, but.... The state sees a drop in lisence sales almost every year. The push is to get more kids hooked on hunting to be able to continue things as is. This is a right to hunt state, any unposted land is open to hunting and fishing. If you dont get kids interested at a very young age, they are lost to the 1001 other things available now. you cant get kids interested if they get a rifle they cant shoot enough to be comfortable with. The board feels no more deer are lost to small calibers then by those that flinch, shoot to far out of their ability etc.

Since I don't know what state you are from, I can only assume you know what you are talking. Sometimes it is difficult to know if a person is actually telling things the way they really are, are just posting Bull Shit. It is nice to know where a person is from so claims made can be checked out.

Here is Texas, a 22 Hornet is legal for hunting deer,m I have killed deer with a 22 hornet. In actuality a damn 25 ACP is legal for hunting deer in Texas because it is a centerfire cartridge. Really seems strange, a 56 Spencer which is a rimfire is not legal to hunt deer with in Texas.

I used to be a supporter of the 222/223 and trhe 22-250 for women and kids, but the more I have looked at the situation, the more I have realized that with todays guns and such things as reduced recoil loadings, muzzle brakes, and the various recoil reducing equipment that can be added to stocks, if a kid or a woman cannot handle the recoil of a 243, then they probably need a little more growing time or maybe deer hunting is not for them.

The problem with that Bull Shit arguement is that many of the folks using 223's and 22-250's are adult males. They do it because they want to, not because they cannot handle recoil, it is a stunt. You talked to these folks and they believe in head and neck shots only. If a person is good enough to do that, more power to them, but from my limited exreience over 40+ years, the 223 and the 22-250 are poor choices for heart-lung shots. At 100 yards or more I have rarely seen an exit wound on even doe white tails that were shot with a 223 or 22-250.

Can the 223 and 22-250 kill deer, yes they can, is it the best choice, not in my opinion. I have no use whatsoever for the 243, but I think the 243 should be the minimum legal round for deer hunting.

Why in the Sam hell has this thread turned into a 223 versus deer thread?

The OP gave his first-hand account of what he saw/observed. Just so happens, I was with him during his/our observations.

The fact is the .243 Hornady bullet during this particular application failed within all of our collective expectations. Which were,

quote:

InterLock®


Features:
Aerodynamic secant ogive delivers flat trajectories and great accuracy.
Tapered jacket for deep penetration and controlled expansion.
InterLock ring locks core and jacket together.
Lead alloy core is tough enough for any game.

#1 I'll give them aerodynamic, flat trajectories and great accuracy, who knows?

#2 tapered jacket for deep penetration and controlled expansion ...... umm NO!!!!! Unless, you call less than 12 inches deep penetration and controlled expansion. You might have your wife convinced what 12 inches is, but certainly not me!!!! It’s likely about 2/3rds of your actual length!!!

#3 Exactly where were the rings to lock the core and jacket together???? We found the boat tail of one bullet. Where did the other one go?

#4 Lead alloy core is tough enough for any game ... BWAHAHAHAHA what is your definition of "tough enough for any game"? Technically, this load is within regulation to hunt elk within the state of CO!!!

So, if it blows up like it did on this antelope, not once but twice!, is it a proper bullet to use for elk within the same state? A different bullet construction, I'd say yes! This particular bullet that failed to provide deep penetration, controlled expansion, locking rings to hold the core and jacket together and a lead alloy core "tough enough for any game" on an antelope as described by the manufacturer of the bullet? I'd say not so fast!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You boys go start your own pissing contest on the virtues of a 223 bullet for hunting. This thread is about a particular 243 bullet not performing up to expected standards as considered by the manufacturer; therefore, resulting in a bullet failure!!!!!!!

By the way, my 22-250 with a 55 grain soft point from Sellier & Bellot is my go to white-tail round when I'm hunting deer back home in Oklahoma!!!!!!!!!

quote:

Why in the Sam hell has this thread turned into a 223 versus deer thread?

Why in the Sam Hell do so many threads jump off topic and go in a completely different direction, Because it is an open forum and people say shit other people don't agree with and the arguement goes in that direction.

As to your comments about the Hornady Interlock failure, that is exactly why I went to using Barnes bullets for all my hunting. Except in my case,. it wasn't a Pronghorn or a .243. It was a Woodland Caribou and a 250 grain Hornady bullet out of a .340 Weatherby Mag.. Approximately 250 yard shot, high shoulder shot, clipping the spine just enough to paralyse the animal and put it on the ground. Required a second shot to finish it off. Bullet basically entered the left shoulder and on contact with the shoulder blade the bullet fragmenmted, jacket and core both.

I don't push my handloads that hot, in fact I start at the bottom of the loading tables and work my way up, if neccessary. I can usually get the type accuracy I want with the starting load.

To finish using up the Hornady's I did my sighting in with them.

CHC, I just sent you a PM with some data/info for you. I've e-mailed you before when talking of moose hunting and thought youd remembered me.
At no place have you seen where I recomended shots over 100 yds for anyone starting their hunting, prefer half that for them. I have gutted only two deer shot with reduced load 243's and the lung damage was less then with the 64 grn win 223 load I recomend/use. Remember, when win came out with the bullet it was developed and marketed as a deer bullet.
Pretty easy really, if you put it where it should be, it works, gut shoot it, it doesnt. I remember when so many fellows would use 220 grn roundnose 30-06's and could never figure out why they hit deer and couldnt find them. Where'd you hit them? "Dont matter with a 220 grn!"

back40 you are right there is a time and place for a 223 on deer. Under 100 yards with the right bullet it will work.

PM'ed you back, Sorry for not remembering our dicussions about the moose hunting. I have terminal CRS(can't remember shit) and I do agree with you on the concept of bullet placemenmt regardless of the caliber or weight of the bullet. If it is not placed in the right spot it ain't gonna do the job.

Don’t usually get to the small caliber Forum because I don’t shoot them any more save the 223 for hogs. Have killed the nasty critters with the 223 to the 338 Slowpoke (Lapua Imp) inc 6.5, 7, .30 and soon the .375. By far the most were killed with the 223 using 55gr fmj’s. At night catch them in a tank then hit them very low where the shoulder ends and there is no armor there lol. Usually try and shoot twice but have never had one go more than 200 yards when struck in the lungs before it falls over blowing large amounts of blood from the nose like a pump up yard sprayer.

It is much more important where you shoot an animal than what you shoot it with within reason of course. Feral hogs are vermin to us and we just want them dead period so when you jump a group in a tank at night accurate and rapid follow up shots are important to get lead in as many as possible. On the other hand put 3 55gr rounds into a huge sows butt running away at 50 to 75 yards and we found her the next day by watching for buzzards.

Have had 1 hog run 200 yards with a softball size wound on the exit side of the middle of the shoulder where a 250 SMK out of the AI AWM 338 Lapua impacting at 275 yards. When we followed the blood trail and finally found her we all agreed that if we had not seen the damage for ourselves we would not have believed that she ran that far with a hole that big.

What does this have to do with the 243? The first rifle I used to hunt deer with was a 243 and never had a 100 gr Nosler FB (no longer made I still have 300 from 30 years ago) fail to penetrate both sides albeit shoulder (poor shot) to the lungs with impact between 75 and 150 yards. Have also killed deer with a 6PPC 70 gr BT and a 220 Swift in my younger years. Now that I know a little more and have the ability to choose a more powerful round always assume worst case because there is nothing worse than attempting a marginal shot with a underpowered cartridge when all you needed to do was grab the 7mag and it would have been a sure thing.

Once when I was 24 watching a very large deer walk across the far end of an oat field all I could do is watch because my Super Duper Sako 6 PPC USA I had loaded with 70gr BT’s (brand new) would not reach out 450 yards to make that shot! My fault because I took the wrong gun and in fact realized then that the deer hunting days for that rifle were over for me. What can I say about youth and inexperience lol..

quote:

Originally posted by theback40:
I have gutted only two deer shot with reduced load 243's

Why would someone shoot a deer with a 243 reduced load?

Also, at what age do you start these children hunting deer?

KB

Kids can start hunting in Texas at 6 years old if they and their parents agree on it.

Rules and regulations concerning concerning what is and is not legal are not the same everywhere.

Maybe those 2 deer back40 cleaned with the reduced load 243 were the only two deer he ever dealt with that had been shot with that round.

He did not say anything about how many deer he had seen shot and lost by folks using reduced loads in a 243 now did he?

I still say that I don't agree with the use of the 222 and 223 or the 22-250 for hunting deer, but many states allow it, and thousands of deer are killed yearly with those rounds.

The pissing contest is about the use of the 223 for deer, the Original Post howevr concerned someone considering a bullet that went to pieces, even though the animal was killed as bullet failure, and had nothing whatsoever to do with whether the 223 is a deer cartridge or not.

quote:

Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:

The Original Post howevr concerned someone considering a bullet that went to pieces, even though the animal was killed as bullet failure, and had nothing whatsoever to do with whether the 223 is a deer cartridge or not.

The way I looked at it, CHC, is that it was concerning a bullet that went to pieces, and the OP just happened to be using a 243, and he considered the bullet to have failed even though the deer died. Limiting the conversation to the 243 is IMO just a way to avoid what some consider a pissing contest about the 223, but the conversation is as much about bullet failure as it is the 243, and bullet failure isn't just the domain of the 243. It could apply to the 308 for example, if a varmint bullet was used.

It just so happens that the kind of bullet failure being discussed is far more common with the 223 due to the design of many bullets used, and IMO, the 223 users would rather not discuss it, and use the claim of a pissing contest to shut it down. It's a pissing contest because of the denial and defensive shut down talk, rather than the issue of bullets exploding to pieces.

Why is it that when discussing bullet failure (as defined herein) is not offensive to most 243 users, and is a real concern which many wish to avoid, but when the same conversation enters the 223 domain, a bunch of advocates get their shorts in a wad?

If I want bullet failure, as defined by the OP, and much of this thread, I could push a Speer or Rem 400 or 405gr flat nose .458 (or worse - a 300gr Rem hollow point) to the max vel I could get, and blast a deer with that. I don't plan on doing that, but I would bet the bullet breaking to pieces even in a deer would have dramatic results, great bloodshot meat, and one heck of an exit hole. So bullet failure, defined as breaking up into pieces isn't limited to the 243.

KB

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:
If I want bullet failure, as defined by the OP, and much of this thread, I could push a Speer or Rem 400 or 405gr flat nose .458 to the max vel I could get, and blast a deer with that. I don't plan on doing that, KB

no exit hole.. and a huge CRATER at entry..

at least with 458 winmag, rem 405s, and 2600 fps more or less...

at least with texas pigs

Not mine.

Too ugly.

quote:

Maybe those 2 deer back40 cleaned with the reduced load 243 were the only two deer he ever dealt with that had been shot with that round.

CHC, that is exactly right. The round worked fine, both deer were broadside shots at 40-60 yds. They ran maybe 50 yds with a small, but visable blood trail. Not one thing wrong with them, but, it didnt do anything that I wasn't already getting with the 80 grn 6/223 or 223/64 grn win.

The 6x45 is almost the 6mmPPC ballistically. Both are interesting little target cartridges, if one wanted to devote the money to such limited use chamberings. They do get some pretty good velocity with 80gr bullets and usable velocity even with 100gr bullets, if the twist rate is sufficient. IMO, they are just another lark, when deer hunting is considered.

As I said earlier, I'm planning on using a 6.5 Grendel for deer, with at least 100gr bullets. Faster twist, and a little more velocity. Should be interesting.

Also, I just bought a 243 in a Winchester featherweight, for the action. But I'm considering shooting it for a while with the factory 243 barrel. I might like it. Why not, it's paid for and may be very accurate, and the best part is it's paid for already.

KB

quote:

IMO, they are just another lark, when deer hunting is considered.

It all depends upon the conditions you hunt under. Here in Texas 99% of the shooting is done from basically a covered shooting bench at deer that are feeding under a timed feeder at 100 yards or less. In many ways, not a lot different than sighting on a paper target at the same distance. Shots are made from a good solid rest, at calm animals. That is why folks use calibers that might not be the best choice or might not even be legal in another state.

I have heard people talk about killing deer with the .204 Ruger and the 17 Remington, spectacular one shot kills. As I have said a couple of times, I have killed a white tail with a 22 Hornet. My second attempt at that resulted in a lost deer and the last time I tried using the hornet on deer.

Getting back to the point I made in my last post on this subject, non of this has anything to do with the Original Post which was about, basically defining bullet failure.

From whatv I have seen over the time I have been on this site, bullet failure means different things to different people. Some folks feel that a bullet that exits an animal is too powerful or too well constructed and that enough energy was not generated to kill the animal. The animal is dead, ran maybe 20 or 30 yards but to some it was still a failure. There are a lot of folks out in the real world that are once a year hunters. They only shoot their guns just enough to know where it is hitting at that moment. Yet they spend all year talking crap with their peers about the "hunts" they have done, and they listen to all the BS their once a year hunting buddies put out and then of course they watch all the latest hunting shows, peddling all the latest gadgets.

The average shooter/hunter does not spend enough time at the range or in the field tro know what works and what don't. As I said in one of my first responses on this thread, I too am in the group that feels that even though the pronghorn died, the bullet failed. Had it been an elk, and yes some people hunt elk with .243, the results would have been truly disasterous, and the elk would possibly been lost.

quote:

Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:
It all depends upon the conditions you hunt under. Here in Texas 99% of the shooting is done from basically a covered shooting bench at deer that are feeding under a timed feeder at 100 yards or less. In many ways, not a lot different than sighting on a paper target at the same distance. Shots are made from a good solid rest, at calm animals. That is why folks use calibers that might not be the best choice or might not even be legal in another state.

There are a lot of folks out in the real world that are once a year hunters.

The average shooter/hunter does not spend enough time at the range or in the field tro know what works and what don't.

That's a good explanation, and my opinion too. That's also part of the benefit of these discussions, IMO; to put things in perspective. Deer hunting in Texas isn't really hunting after all; it's mostly just shooting at deer from a nice steady rest, over bait.

KB

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:

quote:

Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:
It all depends upon the conditions you hunt under. Here in Texas 99% of the shooting is done from basically a covered shooting bench at deer that are feeding under a timed feeder at 100 yards or less. In many ways, not a lot different than sighting on a paper target at the same distance. Shots are made from a good solid rest, at calm animals. That is why folks use calibers that might not be the best choice or might not even be legal in another state.

There are a lot of folks out in the real world that are once a year hunters.

The average shooter/hunter does not spend enough time at the range or in the field tro know what works and what don't.

That's a good explanation, and my opinion too. That's also part of the benefit of these discussions, IMO; to put things in perspective. Deer hunting in Texas isn't really hunting after all; it's mostly just shooting at deer from a nice steady rest, over bait.

KB

Are you kidding we hunt hard? That box blind can get cold, the chairs are never very comfortable. If it wasn't for my IPOD it would be unbearable.

quote:

Originally posted by scottfromdallas:
That box blind can get cold, the chairs are never very comfortable.

The box blinds I hunted from in TX each had a little buddy heater, and padded office swivel chairs on wheels, with arm rests. In camp we had several insulated containers to carry extra coffee or coco to the stand.

I didn't see any IPODs around.

I understand how you may want to rough it somewhat, to keep from falling asleep on the stand, and to simulate hunting.

KB

quote:

Are you kidding we hunt hard? That box blind can get cold, the chairs are never very comfortable. If it wasn't for my IPOD it would be unbearable.

Regards,

Scott

It is crap like your response that causes people to want to move to Texas and take up hunting!!!!!

When it's all said and done; it looks like some of us have expierenced the same results with Hor. bullets. My solution was to use a diffrent bullet. Your solution may be different. Good luck on the deer hunt and let us know what the results are.

Hunting over bait isnt allowed here, but you can figure out what trails are used when and where and shooting sticks, a padded tree branch of the right height, or stretched out prone all provide a good stable platform for a shot. thats something I'm all for.

Oh the twists and turns............

Yes, the .243 bullet in question failed.

Yes, larger caliber varmint type frangible bullets do work on big game and can work effectively but I am not of that school.

Yes, a .22 cal. high velocity bullet will kill a deer. Really nothing wrong with a .22-250 head/neck shot. I can't think of any good argument against that combination for that shot (the choice not the hunter). If you are out culling your heard and/or meat hunting I actually like the idea even better than a .270.

I remember getting chastised as a young man for shooting a doe in the rib cage with a .270 "son look how much meat ya wasted." Never again- does, spikes and culls get it high neck/head.

Now for general deer hunting- No. But if you are competent enough and plan on head/neck shots exclusively I'd not argue with you but would recommend something bigger to cover all bases.

Like BH my hog rig is a .223. A Bushmaster match rifle with Gen 3 night vision and going to get suppressed one of these days. Fk those bastards. Gut shoot em all I say, they ain't worth the drops of gas to drag em off!!!!!

quote:

Originally posted by theback40:
Hunting over bait isnt allowed here, but you can figure out what trails are used when and where and shooting sticks, a padded tree branch of the right height, or stretched out prone all provide a good stable platform for a shot. thats something I'm all for.

At the ranges appropriate for those little cartridges you're using, it should be a chip shot off-hand, unless of course the kid ain't old enough to hold the gun up, or doesn't have enough experience in aligning his/her face with the scope without the rifle supported somehow.

I can see a 6 yr old needing shooting sticks for his trusty 223, or 243 with reduced loads, at 40 yds. Don't forget to bring along hearing protection, and have him put it on while the deer stands there.

KB