Kabluey--You are correct that green stuff you spread all over your supper when you shoot em in the paunch, as in end to end which you brag of doing, is guacomole. You should get several quarts of it. Do you eat it room temp or chilled?

For years my only rifle was 30-06 which I used on everything to include moose and caribou in Alaska. I quit travelling and most of my hunting was in Texas so I dropped down to .243. I had plans of an antelope hunt in Wyoming this month, but health issues with my wife prevented it. I would have taken my .243, if it were an elk hunt would have been 30-06. Where I hunt here is land owned by my son in law and I know everyone that hunts there and what they use. We have used .243's for several years and with very good results. About 25 years ago my son in law wounded one we never found. Past several years many deer taken there with .222 and .223. Contrary to what I would have thought, they have dropped them on the spot with one shot. Changed my thinking and I'll use .223 myself if I shoot another deer.

KB - if you don't like reading about people killing deer with a 223, then don't read it.

cm, if you can kill deer, cleanly, with a 223, you are a better, cooler-headed shot than me.

now, both of you, give the slug-fest a REST

OK, jeffe, I'll be nice.

KB

kabluey,
in a month when deer season opens, I'll have some kids out with either a 223 with 64 grn win or a 6/223 with 80 grn Rem. Both bulk bullets.
They usually pass through unless a shoulderbone is hit. If one is stopped inside, I'll send you a nicely mushroomed bullet complete with blood and meat in the curls so you'll know it is real.

theback40--Sounds like you have been there done that. Doing it again must have had favorable results. What state you hunt in?

quote:

Originally posted by theback40:
kabluey,
In a month when deer season opens, I'll have some kids out with either a 223 with 64 grn win or a 6/223 with 80 grn Rem. Both bulk bullets.
They usually pass through unless a shoulderbone is hit. If one is stopped inside, I'll send you a nicely mushroomed bullet complete with blood and meat in the curls so you'll know it is real.

Posted pictures of such a spectacle would be a welcome sight.

You have focused the issue that I was making a point of. I have reason to believe that you may be able to do what you say regarding showing pictures of mushroomed bullets, and evidence of dead deer from the results of those bullets.

The reason I say that is because of the differences in the bullets you mentioned, compared to the 55gr Win varmint bullet CM uses. And in the case of the 80gr 6mm, due to the velocity from the wildcat. I would bet on different results with that 80gr bullet shot from a 6mm Rem.

There is a difference in what you are saying and what CM is saying, and that's the point I have always wanted to make clear in my posts. It's also the point that gets diffused and dismissed each and every time, by some, or just lost within the argument.

The point is that what CM says with such pride that he is using on deer is clearly a varmint bullet, by design. I will give him $20 for the first one he can produce that has the classic mushroom, shot into a deer inside 100yds from a 223 at std full muzzel vel. That's why I so much as said that I think he is not truthful when he says the 55gr Winchester 223 bullet fully penetrated a deer, because I don't think it's possible. I believe he is embellishing his story.

I'm obviously of the opinion that the 223 is not really adequate for deer, although it's equally obvious it will kill deer. I just think it's in the class of cartridge that can use all the help it can get, from precise shot placment, to a little luck, and most importantly by choosing the best bullets available. IMO, those best bullets will not be lighter than 60gr and will not be designed for match or target shooting or varmint bullets. I think the 64gr Winchester power point bullet qualifies, and the 62gr and 70gr TSX. I don't know about others, but the 55gr Win soft point certainly doesn't qualify.

I am also very much of the opinion that the 223 is not a youth cartridge for deer. IMO, it's an experts' cartridge, and for culling, etc. I would much rather see a youngster using a 30-30, or some of those managed recoil cartridges, or even the 8x57 with some of the downloaded cartridges made in the US, such as those 170gr round nose made by Rem, Win and Fed. They are IMO about the best youth managed recoil, yet very effective cartridges anywhere. If a kid can't handle the recoil of a 30-30 or those mild 8x57 cartridges, he or she has no business hunting deer. He or she isn't ready yet, and needs more practice or growing.

KB

It's obvious kabluey you dont have the experiance shooting and hunting with kids I do, or, you dont know how to make the right set up for the kids to not fail. I have a 100% success over the last 12-15 yrs of taking several kids a year deer hunting. you are going to tell me I'm not doing things right?
Not a single deer lost says I'm doing just fine.

quote:

Originally posted by theback40:
you are going to tell me I'm not doing things right?

Exactly.

quote:

Originally posted by theback40:
It's obvious kabluey you dont know how to make the right set up for the kids to not fail. I have a 100% success over the last 12-15 yrs of taking several kids a year deer hunting.

Not a single deer lost says I'm doing just fine.

I don't want to go so far as to actually say that's not truthful, and that's simply because I wasn't there and can't prove it. But at the same time I find the above quote hard to believe, with the set up as stated. Nobody, regardless of cartridge used, over time and with a number of kids has that kind of success, and I consider it rediculous to think the odds are improved with the use of a marginal cartridge. Heck, from my observations, 100% success ratio by experienced adult hunters is unheard of, regardless of cartridge, but especially with the 223. To claim 100% success with kids is just over the top for me.

Youth and 223 aren't a good mix IMO, and for that to be a valid opinion, there has to be consequenses, and my bet is that's wounded and lost deer. If I'm wrong about this, so be it. Thanks for focusing the issue.

Now you have moved past my main point, as usual. Comment please on the use of varmint bullet specifically.

CM also said he had a high success ratio with the youth and 223 mix, and he's using an explosive varmint bullet. That's even more unbelievable to me. What the heck are you guys doing - staking these does out on a rope for the kids?

KB

Kabluey if you knew half as much as you think you do youd be a genius.
If you cant hunt or shoot thats not my problem, but dont try to tell others they dont know how too.
all my kids shoot alot, as they have a rifle that fits them well, is sighted in for them and they have no fear of. We have target practice, then move on to a 3-d deer target set at angles and are shown shoot and no shoot angles, then we practice on that 3-d target with the shooting sticks or a similar rest they will be useing. I am right beside the kids when we set up, either on trails I know, or on the way to feed&bedding grounds. Ranges are 100 yds or less, no shots allowed on moving deer. Where did I say they were does? many opt to wait for a buck. Most are between 140-160 pounds field dressed.
You sound like someone who makes excuses for not knowing your hunting grounds or taking a proper shot, why can you not wrap your thick head around the fact some of us know what we are doing? I dont do the picture posting thing, but I can round up some pictures and get some kids to write a short note on what they got and how and mail them to you, along with my offer to send a recovered bullet.
My word you can sound dumber then shit on this subject when you dont listen to the details of how I hunt. Ann Horsman that posts on AR has seen a number of photo's of my and other kids with their deer I have taken out. Ask her if I'm bullshitting .

theback40,
I applaud your diligence. Apparantly you are a fine, and might I add that I think unusual, example when it comes to dealing with kids.

I hope you understand my doubt, and I appreciate that you didn't come back all pissed off and defensive. With so much experience with kids, and such a high success rate, then you of all people should know what it takes. I have some idea, based on observations with my relative's kids, and friends kids. Goofy is a mild word.

Before we get too far with this, I remind you that you haven't said anything about my comment on the use of explosive 223 varmint bullets on deer.

KB

quote:

Before we get too far with this, I remind you that you haven't said anything about my comment on the use of explosive 223 varmint bullets on deer.

I havnt said anything because I have not ever used them myself. I know what works for me and I dont change it.
I find the kids that are willing to put the time in with me, in the woods and with the shooting are serious about hunting. They have to spend time learning tracks, trails etc before we even get to the shooting stage. The ones that dont have the intrest dont get as far as actually hunting.

Jeffesso--Why do you let a troll like Kabluey come in here in small cartridge section and call everyone a liar? It is most obvious by his taglines he is a troll looking for an arguement. He has NOTHING to offer about small cartridges. He admits to no experience--well in past he admitted and now comes up with he has some. Many people besides myself have posted favorable results from actual experience yet he calls us liars. Then you tell me to behave?

quote:

I'm obviously of the opinion that the 223 is not really adequate for deer, although it's equally obvious it will kill deer

if you changed 223 for NBT, you have my opinion, exactly.

Gentlemen, i suggest knocking your egos back to stun... perhaps even heavy stun.. and let things go.

can thet 223 kill X critter? hell, it's killed helocopters, i have no doubt that a perfectly placed bullet will kill anything as small as a texas whitetail... i've killed some decent sized pigs with it.

in fact, i have a gen 1 nightvision rig on one.

KB, this is the small bore forum. i expect you'll see a bit of using small bores to legally kill animals.

my OPINION is that, for the most part, NBTs, Long range, and 223s aren't MY CHOICE for most hunting scenerios.

my opinion, and 3 bucks, just MIGHT get you a cup of coffee at starbucks.

it won't get you pancakes at waffle house, nor will trying to force it down other folks throats.

I saw a funny sign.. it said
"opinions are like a penis.. about half of the people have one, its okay to have one, but it is not okay to whip it out in public and try to force it down someelse's throat"

if one gets bent about deer hunting with a 223, you'll likely be happier not reading the small bore forum.


I don't like long range HUNTING, and therefore stay out of that forum. not my cup of tea... but i don't have to go to that party and insult the other guests.

quote:

Originally posted by carpetman1:
It is most obvious by his taglines he is a troll looking for an arguement.

Many people besides myself have posted favorable results from actual experience yet he calls us liars.

Jeffe,
To me this isn't about my ego, but it's certainly about CM's ego. I'm willing to be wrong about this. CM is not willing to be wrong.

CM,
I'm not necessarily looking for an argument, but I am looking for a know-it-all BS artist to discredit, especially when you claim the stuff you've claimed, using an explosive varmint bullet on deer. Think of the influence you have on the less knowledgable, such as your grandchildren. IMO, you are exactly the kind of 223 user who makes the rest of them look bad. There are those who use a 223 with success, but I think varmint bullets on deer can't possibly equal success in a predictable way. Success sometimes, on head shots, when conditions are just right, maybe, but that's not predictable.

You say there are others with favorable experience. I would like to see confirmation of that from those who actually use 55gr varmint bullets on deer. Tell me that you get one shot kills, show me the exit holes, or the mushroomed bullet if it didn't exit.

Well, never mind, I probably wouldn't believe them anyway, just as I don't believe you. What I do believe is that those who use 223s on deer are in some kind of denial zone, and don't acknowledge the failures, and claim outrageous stuff that can't be true, as you have done with the 55gr bullet.

This is exactly why in some reasonable states it's illegal, and IMO it should be illegal nationally. There are some who will argue this till hell melts, so IMO they simply need to be told what's right, just like running a stop sign is against the law.

KB

I think the new brass hollowpoint Cutting Edge Bullet in 22 should be the deadliest legal 22 bullet there ever was. Check out the performance in the terminal bullet performance test in the big bores forum.

KB,
25-20 or 22 hornet ... same class of stuff.. and has been there, done that...

walk away from it... i usualy have to do the same for NBT threads...

Kabluey--Somewhere else you posted your wife left you. I fully believe that and figure he had all kinds of reasons to leave you.

OK, Jeffe, I'm trying to walk away. Its difficult, you know. Once I get the weasel cornered, it's tough to let him duck away. I think my points have been adequately made anyway, and all that's left are useless off-subject personal insults.
KB

PS: I went back and did a little more research, and found the following links; one I posted before, but the 55 gr TSX is a surprise. I believe these reviews mostly because the posters don't appear to have an agenda to prove something.

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewP...productNumber=569746

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewP...uctNumber=1390244488

These are reviews on the two bullets, different design pupose, same weight, much different results. The point is that those using the 223 should have sense enough to know the differences in bullet structure and what it's likely to do before making claims of it doing something that's highly unlikely. I'm a bit surprised that the 55gr TSX did what those guys said it did, but it's believable, because it's not outrageous. If I had to use a 223 for deer or hogs, and had to use a light bullet because of twist rate, I'm sure it would be the TSX. Given a choice, of course I wouldn't use a 223, and I always have a choice.

I have shot one deer with a 223 and one of those 55gn soft pionts it was what I had in the truck at the time deer was DRT but when i walked up to it there was a 5 inch hole going in no hole out. I think a rib bone shattered and took out the vitals . Never again no matter the size of the deer now I leave a 17 fireball and a 450 marlin in the tuck.

quote:

Originally posted by carpetman1:
Kabluey--Somewhere else you posted your wife left you. I fully believe that and figure he had all kinds of reasons to leave you.

Oh, sweetheart, don't you runn oft too.

KB

I can't believe three pages. This is a non post. That projectile performed perfectly.

Some people spend waaaay too much time navel gazing about crap.

Kabluey, your problem is, when ever you get onto your soapbox you start painting everyone with the same brush. it doesnt work that way.
you like to report your success and failures and your opinion on them, but anyone with a contrary opinion it's "hearsay". Guess what? that goes both ways.

How did a report of a .243 bullet failure on antelope turn into another can't kill deer with a .223 post!
You guys need to call each other at home and quit interrupting everyones threads with this crap.
You both are sounding like old women.

I figured that it mattered somehow, to respectable hunters, when someone spouts the virtues of varmint bullets on deer.

Sorry to waste your time. However, often the advice to me in situations like this is that if you don't like it, don't read it.

KB

quote:

Originally posted by theback40:
Kabluey, your problem is, when ever you get onto your soapbox you start painting everyone with the same brush. it doesnt work that way.
you like to report your success and failures and your opinion on them, but anyone with a contrary opinion it's "hearsay". Guess what? that goes both ways.

Where do you come up with this stuff? Where did I paint you and the other BS artist with the same brush? Also, I don't confuse words often, "hearsay" isn't the same as "bullshit".

KB

quote:

Originally posted by Snellstrom:
How did a report of a .243 bullet failure on antelope turn into another can't kill deer with a .223 post!

You obviously can't write and think at the same time. Hopefully the same isn't true about your reading as well. And you are burdened with presuppositions. What makes you think that any of my posts are about "can't kill deer with a 223 post"?

The failure of the 243 bullet as described and concluded by the author was because it came apart. then CM got on board, spouting as usual the virtues of varmint bullets which are designed to come apart. Get the connection? come apart = failure in the opinion of many in this thread. that's different compared to those who usually participate in 223 threads, who it seems make no distinctions about bullets holding together or blowing up. They love to say things like dead deer, what bullet failure?

In this thread there is meaningful discussion of distinctions between the different bullet performances, among gentlemen who think such things matter.

I think it's relevant.

The problem, I think, is the emotionalism of the 223 BS artists, and Aficionado, who can't stand it when someone points out the basic flaw of their hunting tool. Actually it's plural - the word is flaws - one is the tool and the other is in the head.

Can't we have a decent and civilized discussion about 243 bullets holding together or not without the 223 varmint bullet shooters butting in?

KB

quote:

Where do you come up with this stuff? Where did I paint you and the other BS artist with the same brush?

Only that you do alot of generalization when you get onto your pet subject, and can easyly be construed that way.

Generalizations are better than making it personal, and personal attacks. I try to avoid that, but sometimes it's very difficult to avoid it and make the point sufficiently.

I know I'm a hard head, but there are others here with even harder heads, and they only begin to relate, when it becomes personal. I don't like it, but it's sometimes either that, or drop it - they win.

KB

quote:

. I don't like it, but it's sometimes either that, or drop it - they win.

Ahhh, I think that is called ego
You told Jeffe you were going to drop it a few posts back didnt you?

You drop it, and I'll drop it?

Better yet, stay on subject, and let's have a real discussion. Bet ya can't do it.

I never said that I don't have ego. I said it isn't about my ego, and I try to keep it that way by not making it personal. That's where the trap is, and I can fall into it pretty darn easy, especially when others run out of argument or meaningful discussion and the only thing left is to make it personal. I think it's definately about your ego, and CM's ego. The first clue is when you start making personal attacks with off-subject info gleaned from other posts.

KB

Not much else I can add kabluey, but I'd be more then happy to go to PM and debate my use of small bores for deer. Send me a PM with where a differant set up will do better then what I have, I'll listen.

Kabtrolley---When you start calling people liars you can expect personal attacks.

quote:

Originally posted by theback40:
Not much else I can add kabluey, but I'd be more then happy to go to PM and debate my use of small bores for deer. Send me a PM with where a differant set up will do better then what I have, I'll listen.

I already suggested a better set-up, IMO, which is the controlled recoil factory ammo, 30-30 or the US made 8x57 ammo, for examples. Practically anything is better than a 223 IMO. First it weeds out the kids that aren't ready to hunt, and secondly it provides a rifle/ammo combo that without a doubt is adequate for the job. It's a set-up for success.

KB

quote:

Originally posted by carpetman1:
Kabtrolley---When you start calling people liars you can expect personal attacks.

quote:

Originally posted by carpetman1:
My nephew is a pharmacist and works long hours. This past week-end he got a needed break and came down and we hunted deer. Saturday we only got a glimpse of one running away. Sunday he shot a small yearling buck. Texas whitetail are known for being small and this one would have only gone about 80 pounds(young deer). He took out the liver and the deer dropped on spot. Was kicking when we arrived and nephew used pistol for finishing shot. He was using his sons CZ rifle in .223 and my reload. The reload is a 55 grain Win bulk packed. We found the base of the bulet in the off side. First time we didn't get complete pass through. This base had formed a perfect mushroom and weighed 40 grains which would be 72.7% of original weight. This bullet and the same bullet in 100 grain for .243 has taken many many deer by me, friends and family.

quote:

Originally posted by carpetman1:
Gotcha. It was really an eight point Texas whitetail--about 125 pound range. I offended someone by using the title "Another deer with a .223" and was accused of being in your face bragging etc, thus the thread title. This was shot by my nephew (same one that shot the one on the other thread). The deer was hit high on the shoulder and dropped on the spot. This was with .223 using Winchester bulk packed(cheap--not premium) bullet. Deer went down in his tracks but required finishing shot to head with pistol. This deer like the last one, we recovered the base of the bullet on the off side--perfect mushroom.

CM, what's with these finishing shots with a pistol, if as you say the initial shot was perfect?

BTW, I think it's a great idea to tote a pistol along for the finishing shot, if one stoops to using a marginal cartridge for deer, and especially if using varmint bullets in said marginal cartridge.

You have been made an offer to redeem yourself, somewhat. All you have to do is post a real picture of one of those 55gr Win varmint bullets showing the perfect mushroom, and I'll send you $20, and eat crow to boot.

KB

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:
I am also very much of the opinion that the 223 is not a youth cartridge for deer. IMO, it's an experts' cartridge, and for culling, etc. I would much rather see a youngster using a 30-30, or some of those managed recoil cartridges, or even the 8x57 with some of the downloaded cartridges made in the US, such as those 170gr round nose made by Rem, Win and Fed. They are IMO about the best youth managed recoil, yet very effective cartridges anywhere. If a kid can't handle the recoil of a 30-30 or those mild 8x57 cartridges, he or she has no business hunting deer. He or she isn't ready yet, and needs more practice or growing.

If one is considering youth-sized rifles, a good hard look should also be taken at (in no particular order) 243 Winchester, 257 Roberts, 260 Remington, and 7mm-08 Remington. IMHO, those are 4 of the best recoil-sensitive deer cartridges around (common to NA).

Just my $.02.

Davis

quote:

I already suggested a better set-up, IMO, which is the controlled recoil factory ammo, 30-30 or the US made 8x57 ammo, for examples. Practically anything is better than a 223 IMO. First it weeds out the kids that aren't ready to hunt, and secondly it provides a rifle/ammo combo that without a doubt is adequate for the job. It's a set-up for success.

And, you are wrong, I have proof in the pudding. you have.... well, I dont know what, but a desire for everyone to think like you. When the bullets I use exit 80+% of the time, what on earth am I going to gain? What I have are very happy kids that shoot until they have absolute confidence. When you can prove what you offer through actuall kids use and compare it to mine, I'll consider it. I've started putting together some photos of the kids deer if you want me to send them as proof.

While I am not a fan of using the 223 or 222 for that matter for hunting deer, the fact cannot be ignored that thousands of deer yearly, are killed with the 223 and the 222, in Texas alone.

I would prefer to see people use a 243 or larger, but, until or unless states enact regulations specifying the size or power level of cartridges to be used for deer hunting, the 223 and 222 will remain a popular caliber with some folks and in some localities.

What's with the finishing shot? Lots of people wait awhile before approaching. We approached right after shot and if animal still showing signs of life, use finishing shot. This has been true with larger cals possibly more so than with smaller.

quote:

Originally posted by carpetman1:
This has been true with larger cals possibly more so than with smaller.

You live in la-la land, man. Have you checked your nose lately to see if it's growing. Maybe you should check your pants to see if they are on fire.

KB