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I was pronghorn hunting with an Army buddy this weekend. I've helped him with reloading and this was his first hunt in 13 years. He was shooting his own reloads in .243 Win using the Hornady Interlock 100 grain BTSP. I don't know what muzzle velocity that these bullets were fired at as I never ran them over my chrony. My friend made two perfect broadside shots at 130 yards on his animal. The bullets never exited the offside but instead seperated from the jackets and went throught the paunch and I found one tiny piece of the BT core section of the bullet in the offside flank. I didn't weigh it but I'm guessing it was about 10-15 grains in weight. Yes the bullets did the job and killed the animal basicly where it stood. However I would have liked to see exits on a small pronghorn. Plus it made field dressing the animal a mess, luckily we were close to a water supply to rinse the animal out. Anyone had a similar experience with Hornady bullets in .243? I normally like them as they shoot well in most of my rifles. My experience with them on game is real limited having only taken deer with a 130 grian SP out of a .270 and 200 grain SP on pronghorn out of my .338-06. I recommended my buddy not to use that particular bullet on is up coming deer hunt in two weeks. I don't know if it was a bad lot, but I can't imagine a 100 grain bullet failing like that. I gave him a box of 95 grain NBT's to load up for that hunt as I've had good luck with them in the .243 before on game. I told him as well to find some factory ammo to shoot if he couldn't work up a decent load in such short time and stick with premium bullets if he had any doubts. | ||
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Have had this happen with RWS 100gn in 243. Bullet similar to hornady interlock. I have bullet blow up on shoulder of red hind, and also deflection off a rib. | |||
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Boat tails are more likely to do this than flat base bullets.....I like the boat tails for longer range shooting but in truth the advantage may not outweigh the drawbacks. /////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// "Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." Winston Churchill | |||
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 IMHO that bullet worked just fine. Exit isn't always the name of the game. In larger game , maybe. Did you ever have to track a cotton tail? Me thinks not.  rogerOld age is a high price to pay for maturity!!! Some never pay and some pay and never reap the reward. Wisdom comes with age! Sometimes age comes alone.. | |||
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How can you call it "bullet failure" when the animal was killed where it stood? I have killed quite a few antelope with that exact cartridge/bullet combination and am completely satisfied with the Hornady 100 BTSP .243 bullet. On the other hand, I have experienced a Nosler Partition 100 grain .243 failure to expand on a mule deer doe. She did die, but she went a little ways first. Based on my experience, I'd stay with the Hornady bullet. | |||
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The reason I called it a bullet failure is that it was a heavy for caliber bullet on thin skinned game that failed to exit. Hitting pronghorn in the slats isn't exactly a true test for most bullets especially one designed to "stay together" according to the manufacturer.
I didn't find anything about this particular bullet to match Hornady's description. Dead is dead, but I don't know any hunters who enjoy cleaning green ooze out of their animal. | |||
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Taylorce, bottom line is your "hunting" bullet performed like a varmit bullet. If you wanted varmeti bullet perforance, you would of chosen a varmit bullet. You experience is why I prefer something in the .277 and 130-140gr range for deer and antelope. | |||
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While I've used the .243 Win on pronghorn and mule deer this wasn't my bullet performance. I used 120 grain Sierra's out of a .25-06 to take my animal this year. | |||
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I've expierenced the same thing with the Hor. 129 SST in a 264 win. I chauck it up to too much speed. I think if he was 300 yds. out the bullet would have performed the way you expect. The Hor. gave me maybe 8" of penetration on an 80 yd. shot at an antelope. The goat died right there but I went to a stronger bullet. For hunting I use the Nosler Accubond or the Partision. I would also use a Sierra and be confident in the performance. | |||
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This is a statement that's hard to argue with.....but then the only time one can point to a bullet failure is when the bullet is found.....and that's almost exclusively in a dead animal..... For this reason I define a bullet failure as any time the jacket separates from the lead core, and regardless of the results it had on the game being hunted. To date I've experienced bullet failures with Sierra and Remington's core-lokt.....and not yet with a Hornady bullet.....but I almost always shoot flat base bullets. A bullet that fails to expand can also be viewed as a failure but often this bullet is never recovered.....one must surmise the result by examination of the carcass......such as a one caliber exit hole. /////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// "Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." Winston Churchill | |||
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Vapo, Why would it make any difference if the bullet is flat baced or a boat tail? | |||
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Yes i have used 100 grain /hornandys in my.243, and now YOU know why i switched to 100NP's in my .243! DM | |||
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I had the same thing happen using 180 grain interlocks out of a .300 Win Mag on a caribou. Shot him four times in the ribs at about 150 yards. The bullets fragmented and none of them made it into the offside lung. Made one hell of a mess. I love v-max's for varmints, but the only caliber I use the interlock on big game for is 6.5 Swede with the 160 grain RN bullet at a leisurely 2400 fps. Anything faster than that and I'd switch to a different bullet. Pete | |||
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Boat tails can basically be separated into two kinds...here is one of them:.....notice that the inner core extends into the boat tail section and all the way to the end of the bullet base less the jacket thickness  Here's another kind.....notice that the boat tail extends far past the end of the core.....much like a flat base.  The tapered jacket of the first bullet don't provide any grip on the core but the last photo does.....seems like a very little but the evidence is that it does make a difference /////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// "Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." Winston Churchill | |||
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Thanks for the reply. I'll start looking at the cross sections of the boat tails I use and probably stay with the Partision for bigger game. | |||
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The first bullet is from Sierra and the second one is a Nosler accubond..... Partitions won't shed the rear core ever.....well almost never......I have read of it but it's darn rare. /////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// "Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." Winston Churchill | |||
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Maybe you can compare this situation: 6.5-06 Wildcat, with a 120 Sierra Game King, @ 3160fps, range 120 yards. While I only used one round to kill the antelope, the result was the same as you outlined for your 243 load. I hit him about 3 ribs back of the left shoulder. I did not think of this as "bullet failure" though, just a dead critter. Jerry NRA Benefactor Life Member | |||
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An 80gr TTSX or 85gr TSX will solve that problem. | |||
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Jerry, Are you sure that was a 120 Sierra Game King? I didn't think they made that in 6.5mm. They do make a 120 gr. Pro Hunter in that caliber, but not a Game King, last I checked. That's quibbling on my part, to be sure, but since the GK is a boat tail and the PH isn't I thought it might be relevant to this discussion. | |||
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Yep, as well as gain velocity and save bullet weight. That 80 grain pill performs better than any 100 grain bullet on the market. I was hesitant to even try the .243 on deer until I shot my first one with that bullet. After shooting three more with the same results, it was the performance I expected from at least a 7mm size bullet. | |||
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The problem with the "bullet failure" discussion is that some say if it killed the animal, it didn't fail. Others argue as Vapo did, which I agree with. Then there are "bullet failures" where the animal isn't recovered to examine the bullet. Many of the small caliber advocates just adjust their harp to the "bullet placment" tune, and mark it off as a bad hit. Many years ago, I witnessed this "bullet failure" with the 243 on several occasions, helping hunting buddies track down deer they shot, some recovered - some not. I had it happen to me once, a long tracking job that is. Eventually, I just traded off the 243 and have been using bigger cartridges since. Lately, I've been thinking of trying the small calibers again, namely the 6.5 Grendel, but I'll choose the bullet carefully. I bought a box of 100gr Barnes blue tip bullets for starters. The TTSX were out of stock, so I ordered the tactical look-alike instead. (TAC-TX) I hope to try them on some deer soon. Anyway, I still think the 243 is a good deer cartridge, but I also think the issues with bullet performance become more noticable, the smaller the caliber. We have better bullets today than were available when I was in college. KB ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ | |||
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Kabluey--Those long tracking jobs that were found--where were they hit? I bet not good spots. I'd suspect same results had a bigger gun been used. Those not found, we'll never know but I doubt it was in a good spot. | |||
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I would just modify this a little. If core separation occurs at the very end, I wouldn't consider that failure. If the core separated on quartering shot after penetrating 3 feet of animal, I would consider that fine performance. | |||
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Chalk up one more for the, "Even Though The Critter Died On The Spot, It Was Bullet Failure" crowd. The main reason I went to using Barne bullets for 90+% of my hunting was because of the performance of a couple of Hornady bullets out of two different caliber rifles, that went completely to pieces, one on a whitetail and one on a woodland caribou. I am also a member of the group that prefers having an exit wound with air and fluid going out both side of the critter. With my hunting style, I don't hav many "textbook" shots, I usually just try to make the best of what I am presented with and since I like to eat game meat, I don't want a lot of tissue destruction or blood shot meat to throw away. My experience with Barnes and uprisingly to some folks, some Remington core-locts, is that you can eat right up to the hole. The critter might run a littl way after the hit but at least I have a trail to follow. Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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I have never understood this type of logic. It is similiar to having a vehicle with "mushy" brakes that apply at 1/4" above the floor board. But the brakes are still stopping the vehicle....right? Taylorce, IMO you are correct in thinking it was a bullet failure. But, just what caused the failure? Speed or poor bullet construction? I have used the Hornady bullets in 277 cal. on deer without any problems (so far) but have also shot a great many of them into large hay bales during target shooting and found them starting to seperate from their jackets. I have since stopped using them for hunting on deer as I prefer to push the envelope re: velocity in my .277s. IMO the ballistic tips are also a poor choice for non-varmint hunting. I personally know of 2 complete failures with these bullets. One in 300WM and the other with a 7mmRM. The latter was a 140 gr. bullet at 3050 fps./@ muzzle on a boar hog hit in the shoulder. Hog was never found. "The right to bear arms" insures your right to freedom, free speech, religion, your choice of doctors, etc. ....etc. ....etc.... -----------------------------------one trillion seconds = 31,709 years------------------- | |||
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If one was to read folks by their deeds and not their words.....one will notice that almost all of the bullet manufacturers have introduced bonded bullets designed to not allow the jacket to separate from the core.....even Nosler who owns the partition design has bought out the accubond.....and folks are buying them. Faster cartridges may contribute to the reasons for the bonded bullets but when I read here of folks using premiums in standard older rounds it seems that quite a few folks are willing to belly up a bit more cash for the "premium" bullets..... We read every year about the multitudes of wild game taken with "target" type bullets and it generates a lot of hard posting on these forums because folks see the world through different eyes..... It's one thing to say that the deer died regardless of the bullet's terminal performance....it's totally another to say that the probability favors that type of terminal bullet performance.....so it often becomes not so much the outcome of a single event....it's the probability of outcomes people are looking for. /////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// "Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." Winston Churchill | |||
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Vapo, I have a friend who hunts Africa a fair amount. He told me one year he took his brother who is a benchrest shooter. His brother shot a plains antelope of some type or another with his 300WM and Sierra MatchKing bullet. He said they spent the next 2 days looking for the antelope. "The right to bear arms" insures your right to freedom, free speech, religion, your choice of doctors, etc. ....etc. ....etc.... -----------------------------------one trillion seconds = 31,709 years------------------- | |||
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A bullet ending up penetrating the paunch and found in the offside flank on a "perfect broadside shot" is not what I would call a "perfect" broadside shotshot. The paunch is a long ways from the heart/lung area, even on an antelope. Yes I do use that very bullet in the 243 Win loaded to right at 3000 fps. It is a very good bullets and has always exited on antelope when shot broadside in the heart/lung area, even after penetrating a leg bone. Poor shot placement should not be blamed on the bullet. I also agree that even with the excellent performance penetrating the paunch though the jacket core sperated the antelop was DRT. That is hardly "bullet failure". Larry Gibson | |||
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Thanks for that post.....we seem to always get the post that says he was successful using the matchking or A-max...rarely do we get a post about the other way around. /////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// "Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." Winston Churchill | |||
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I'm guessing it was speed and bullet construction both. Now if it had been a 300 yard shot would the bullet have performed the same? I think it would have held together better had some of the velocity bled off. That said I do think that the bullet didn't live up to Hornady's description of its performance. As far as NBT's go for hunting I like them. I've had nothing but good luck with them, but of course I'm not driving them much above the 3000 fps mark with my rifles. I've never had one come apart like the Hornady did in this case. | |||
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I once shot an antelope (Pronghorn) at about 100 yards with a .270 win. I used a sierra 130 grain boat tail and sent the bullet through the central portion of the chest cavity as the pronghorn was standing broadside. The animal run about 75 yards and turned back to look at me .....as though he was never touched....I couldn't believe I missed that shot and crammed a second round in the chamber to shoot again.....and as I was about to shoot the second shot, the animal leaped skwyard and fell to the ground dead as a door nail. Upon inspection he was hit where I aimed on the first shot......the bullet passed through and never opened as the exit wound was one bullet diameter. I used a federal premium ammo and wrote to Federal about it and they replied that they will not use a Sierra boattail again as a "premium" bullet as my experience had been related to them many times. The pronghorn died.....but I'm still going to call it a bullet failure....had the pronghorn run somewhere that I couldn't find it.....I might have lost it. /////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// "Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." Winston Churchill | |||
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I know this wasn't what you had, but Sierra themselves tell hunters not to use their Match Kings in place of their Game Kings. My good friend won't listen and uses the 168 Match King in his 30-06. Fortunately he has had great success with it. I'm a 7mm fan, especially the 7mm-08 and I use the old plain Hornady 139 grain flat base and it has been an exceptional bullet for me. | |||
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Well then Larry, if you do in fact believe in a bullet failure, can you define what it is in your mind? /////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// "Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." Winston Churchill | |||
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"Bullet Failure" ??? Let's take it out of the field, and into the lab, using ballistic jello. Say the bullet fragments, or explodes within inches of penetration? Is that failure? Not if it is being used for what it was designed for, such as varmints, with a 223. Is that result likely to indicate failure on deer or hogs? It is in my opinion, regardless of whether it resulted in a kill. It's also a failure in judgment of the shooter to use such a bullet, IMO. Say the bullet seperates jacket from core, doesn't penetrate far enough to likely exit? Is that failure? I say it depends on one's expectations. If seperation is acceptable, then it didn't fail. If the hunter expects exit, then it failed. Say a bullet tumbles or veeres off course, from straight line penetration? Is that bullet failure? Is is to me, for a hunting bullet. The answers lie in the expectations of the hunter. The variables are always present, but it's the probabilities that can be predicted pretty good by just looking at the design and purpose and specs of the bullet. Say you take a 175gr 8mm Sierra shot from the 8x57, compared to 100 gr Sierra shot from the 243. Both are likely to seperate, but the 8mm is far more likely to exit a deer or hog than the 243. It's simply a matter of initial bullet weight, and impact velocity. The design of each bullet may likely be relatively the same, but different results can be predicted. The 223 Sierras are not even in the same league with the 243 or the 8mm, but all can drop a deer under the right conditions. Those who say the bullet didn't fail simply because it killed the deer or hog are intentionally denying certain important info. KB ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ | |||
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Well I don't have any pictures to prove it, but the shot was a perfect broadside shot. My friend put two shots throught the rib cage within 1/2" of each other right in the heart lung area. The bullet seperated from jacket and deflected off of the rib cage. There was no damage to the off side ribs. The only piece of bullet I was able to dig out was the piece in the flank. Heart, lungs, liver, and the stomach and intestines were all destroyed or lacerated from the bullet fragments. That is why I consider this to be a true bullet failure. | |||
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KB....good point....if one uses a varmint bullet as a hunting bullet then it's the hunter that has failed and not the bullet. In the case of this thread however this is not the case....the hunter is using a commonly accepted hunting bullet! /////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// "Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." Winston Churchill | |||
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That's also a good point Vapodog. "A commonly accepted hunting bullet". More specifically - for deer. Used to be that seperation or fragmentation at high vel was common and perhaps accepted. Seems that expectations are achangin. I for one like the bonded bullets such as Accubonds and interbonds, etc. They meet my expectations in two ways - they don't fragment and they usually exit. But frankly I haven't had that problem with anything I've shot in several years, but again, I'm not shooting a 243. I'm writing quickly and can't make all my points, but one is, for example: if I used the old fashioned cup n core bullets, which I still do, and one failed to exit a deer, broadside, I would consider something went wrong. Part of what I'm saying is that I think the old fashioned bullets are still as good (or bad) as they always were, but the issues are more noticed, the smaller the caliber. That's why the 243 is considered by many to be the minimum for deer and hogs. Shooting a mono bullet or bonded bullet in the 243 will likely show some real noticable improvment, IMO; the kind of "improvment" that won't be as noticable on the same game, by switching to premium bullets in the 308 or 8x57. KB ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ | |||
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With GX2 (or is it GX3) bullets for thin skinned medium size game that I intend to find and take home for consumption/trophy mounting, I expect the bullet to make an as shot caliber size hole where I aim AND make a quarter size exit wound on the far side of the entrance hole and in basically the same line of trajectory of the entrance hole. Even if it has to go through shoulder bone. This is with the "non-ultra" cartridge rifles that I own. I think most here expect the same thing. The Nosler Accubonds and Partitions have done just that for me as well as the Remington Corlok and the old original Winchester Silvertips although I don't recall the Silvertips having had to break any shoulder bones. Havn't tried any Barnes on game yet and not sure I will. "The right to bear arms" insures your right to freedom, free speech, religion, your choice of doctors, etc. ....etc. ....etc.... -----------------------------------one trillion seconds = 31,709 years------------------- | |||
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At what point of the animal dying did the bullet fail? A bullet failure to me is two things... inaccurcy and a wounded animal,hit in the killing zone, that is NOT found I pray for mud on my boots the day I die... Go see the nights of Africa..... | |||
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We are all products (victims?) of our own experiences. What works for one of us may not for another. If, after a properly placed shot, the animal is "dead right there" it is hard for me to call it bullet failure even though the bullet fragmented. Something went right. Enough vital tissue was sufficiently disrupted to result in a quick kill. On the other hand, if after a well placed shot the animal runs off and leads one on a long distance chase because of insufficient tissue disruption, then we are looking at bullet failure. I have seen an antelope hit with a 243 using the Hornady 100 BTSP at 400 yards literally flip over and land on its back dead. I have also seen an antelope hit twice at 125 yards with a 270 using a Hornady 130 Interlock take nearly a minute (it seemed like hours at the time) to realize it was dead and fall over. It never moved, but... If I place my shot properly and the animal dies quickly (even if the bullet did not perform "perfectly"), than my feeling is: "you can't argue with success". | |||
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