The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Rifles Wildcats And Their Development 404-375 Now with pics!Go | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
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Hi Sid and welcome! You are an ideal candidate for this project it sounds like minus the donor gun in the safe... The reamer pitch in should be less than $50 I think the easiest way to be ahead is to find a 375 with sights that is cheap and fits you well and have it rebored. Having the same recoil as a 375 will be a big plus for a lot of folks just like you who like a larger bore and lower recoil but still could go full 404 power. As far as costs go... do you have a gunsmith you trust? Ask him for a quote on a rebore and rechamber. also make sure the rebore will have .125" left on the barrel thickness. 400 @ 2150 and 350 @ 2300 should be quite tollerable as far as recoil goes and if that is too much a mercury reducer should make it feel like a 30-06! 577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
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Looking into this a little more, it looks like the 425 Express is very close ballistically to this cartridge. The trade-off I see is an easier donor rifle source for the 425 Express versus the loss of the smooth tapered case (shouldered and belted 425 Express brass). For a riflesmith, I'm thinking it may be best to use a smith someone else is using. What riflesmiths will other people be using? Or, should I see if Pac-Nor will do a rebarrel or rebore? Best Regards, Sid All those who seek to destroy the liberties of a democratic nation ought to know that war is the surest and shortest means to accomplish it. Alexis de Tocqueville The American Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers that it can bribe the public with the public's money. Alexis de Tocqueville | |||
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The 425 express/404-375 is a good debate. The cost would be about the same if you look at a rebarrel vs rebore and to make a 425 express you most likely would need to rebarrel. The larger gun would cut down recoil but both could be made to weigh the same but the larger gun needs no mods. Performance would be about the same but the 404-375 has a capacity advantage. I like the idea of not fussing with a shoulder to form ect. you can buy 425 express brass from qual cart but you can pick up 375 and Lott brass in more places. If you wanted a more compact gun and that was a priority than the 425 Express is the winner but I would buy the 416 Ruger IMHO This wont be for everyone but it will be just the ticket for others. 577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
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I agree with Boom, if one had a standard length magnum they wanted to use and stay 30-06 length, the 416 Ruger/416 AR makes a better arguement. You're best bet would be to start with a 458 Win Mag, then no feeding mods would be needed. However, if you have the magazine length, the 375-404 is a good choice. Yes, you need a custom reamer and dies, but the dies are one time purchases, and I think a good reamer will get passed around here for a very minimal fee. The big saver here, is in the brass. With no shoulder forming, making cases is easy, and 375 H&H brass is a dime a dozen, VERY cheap and its everywhere. Ruger brass, once available will most likely be more expensive. Depending on who makes the brass in 375 you're using, it could be twice the price. If you think every possible niche has been filled already, thank a wildcatter! | |||
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Jeffe made me an expander... now all I need is some 375 brass and a bullets to make some dummies. Jeffeosso is a smart cat and figured out the "Gimp" way to do it is to use a drill. He figured out that you can use a 27/64ths drill to open up 375 dies. Use a removable pilot 375 reamer with a 423 neck throater and expand 375 dies... this can be pretty simple. 577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
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I'd send you some 375 brass if I had them, but all I have are about 10 300 H&H cases If you think every possible niche has been filled already, thank a wildcatter! | |||
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Small update, I think instead of using my current 300 Wby M70 and doing a switch barrel, I'm just going to build the 404-375 on another M70 PF action. They're dirt cheap and plentiful on the used racks here in 7RM (only this caliber though...odd) When I started looking at my rifle more, I would have had to bore out the barrel channel in the stock to get teh 404 barrel to fit properly, and it would have left an unsightly gap with the 300 barrel on it, seeing as its a light sporter contour. Plus, if this wild cat doesn't work out like we think it should...it would be just some minor work to open it up to a regular 404 J, which I've always wanted, so nothing lost but some time and a little money, but at least it would be fun trying if it doesnt work! If you think every possible niche has been filled already, thank a wildcatter! | |||
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A 404-375 you say ... custom reamers and dies? I must be missing something, but why can't a 375H&H reamer with removable pilot be chased by an appropriate 423cal neck/throater? Lee dies are easily opened. Cheers... Con | |||
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which is exactly what i told boomie should be done... an endmill would probably go right through the dies opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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Absolutely right jeffe, and much more in-line with the 'poor man's magnum' theme! Cheers... Con | |||
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exactly what jeffe said! and con you got the idea right, it fits best with the poor man theme. if i had a 375 handy, or if i manage to find one cheap enough....ill go that route to keep to the cheap path. as its looking now though, i either have to spend 800$ on a Rem 798, or 1000$ on a cz just to rebore. a cheap donor action and rebarrel probably come out to about the same cost as a new rifle and rebore. we may get a few guys together on the cost of a reamer however, and i think 375 dies can be opened up easily. i also found this place newlonprecision.com that sells solid dies for 60$ that can be set up with the chamber reamer. everythings still in progress and planning at the moment If you think every possible niche has been filled already, thank a wildcatter! | |||
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Yes Con... Using all off the shelf stuff and some slightly modified to go from medium 375 bore to the medium big bore is the way to go. It seems the largest cost is the barrel swap or rebore. With the donor gun and 375 dies in hand you might be able to get away with the whole project under $400 and the money you save in cheap brass will be a great savings over time. 577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
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Man...wish I already had a 375 donor in hand! Its going to up the cost for me, but for other people I see on the BB forum always wanting to convert their rilfes into a larger caliber...this is perfect! I just wish the cheapest options for actions right now didn't make me cringe....B5HQ has a R700 375 H&H for like 550$, and Gander has a Savage 110 7RM for 220$. If you think every possible niche has been filled already, thank a wildcatter! | |||
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I'm in the same situation. If I found a good donor at a good price, the choice would be much easier. Best Regards, Sid All those who seek to destroy the liberties of a democratic nation ought to know that war is the surest and shortest means to accomplish it. Alexis de Tocqueville The American Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers that it can bribe the public with the public's money. Alexis de Tocqueville | |||
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I found belted mag basic brass cheaper then 375 brass.... do you guys think it would be easier to start like this, or go with the 375 brass? Midway doesnt have the 1x fired 375s in stock right now so this seems to be cheapest. 34$ for 50 and its Hornady brass. If you think every possible niche has been filled already, thank a wildcatter! | |||
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6 of one 1/2 dozen...Form from basic or expand up... either is fine but I think the basic will look better formed due to not having a wave in the neck where the shoulder was but I dont think it will be bad at all or might not even be noticeable due to the shallow angle of the 375 shoulder. I am eager to expand some 375 cases if anyone has a few old used up 375 brass cases that wont be missed  577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
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Then we have to find someone with a few extra .423 bullets they are willing to donate  If you think every possible niche has been filled already, thank a wildcatter! | |||
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Lads, Just been thinking regarding the dies. CH/4D made a 2 die set for the 470Capstick that just didn't work forcing them to go to a 3 die set like other straight cases. This 'cat really needs a 3 die set in my opinion as you need to bell the mouth a touch to get the fresh projectile in ... so add a Lee Universal expander for cast pills into the poor man's basket to flare the case mouth a touch. Used with care and gently ... I wonder if a 44Magnum or 44/40 seater would seat projectiles well enough?? Now ... it wont be kind to brass, but the 'ghost shoulder' will be over a calibre long, so if the 375H&H dies are bored out to make the necks a smidgin' tight, and then the case flared gently and projectile seated, it will result in a visible reduction below the projectile's base ... lets call it the 'poor man's crimp' as it allows you to avoid a custom die set to get a crimper happening.  You know, this bugger (404/375MHS) may actually be quite an interesting little wildcat! It should feed sweeter than sweet and a 450gr Woodleigh at 2150fps would make an interesting 'intermediate' DGR cartridge. I'm almost tempted to suggest it be called the '423 HillBilly Long', because getting it up and running will be like the trailer trash coming home to stay compared to the work H&H must have put into their 40cal.  Looking forward to hearing more on its progress. Cheers... Con | |||
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Grenadier... Take time to consider all the aspects before such dismissal. Vanilla is great... But some people want rocky road extra nuts. Double pun there... If you like vanilla and I do... There is the 30-06 and the Lott This 404-375 has quite a few merrits and will be quite the gentlemans hunting cart. If you don't like mixing belts and shoulders along with a neat tapered feeding hound case to get an easy cheap 404 alternative this is way cool IMHO. To thine self be true. Con... Thanks for your advice and input  577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
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No worries Boomster, I'll be making up some dummies of this case in the next few weeks (need to get some 0.423" projectiles) just to have a good look. Also the big Wby case opened to 50cal but shortened to 2.5" and straight walled with lots of taper ... holidays are good for dreaming and fiddling and I have a sporter M17 in 30/06 that's a bit boring. Cheers... Con | |||
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silly? maybe, i mean there are other factory options....but thats not what this particular forum is about. no one here takes the easy way....now we are trying to make this "easy" as far as a wild cat goes. and you really have to look past the hoops that will jumped through to get the end result, and look at the end result. 404 J numbers without the price. the cheapest option right now for a new 404 is a CZ safari classic, starts at 2400$. even the cheapest custom route is well over 1500 when you consider a 300 rum M70 classic, then add a new barrel, action work, any feed work....heck the rifle alone will cost you 1200 avg. now i do like the 400, but, its my opinion that they did it all wrong. too short a body, too long a neck. and brass is expensive. just remember, without wildcatters pioneering the way, the vast majority of cartridges we all love, wouldnt exist! If you think every possible niche has been filled already, thank a wildcatter! | |||
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con - always love your imput! lol but i cant take credit with putting mhs on the moniker, i simply proposed a question and idea, boomy really deserves the credit by answering that question. i can tell you, i cant get this darn cat off my mind! i am constantly searching for cheap solutions to get this rolling. heck even for just a first starter project im starting to think the unthinkable and pick up a savage 110 at my LGS for 200$ that has the proper mag and bolt. i found a 423 barrel for 230$.....just gotta find a smith who wants to tackle the chambering without the custom reamer. other option is a rebore of *gasp* a rem 700 (i know i know......) because im finding the basic sps for 550$ in the H&H. i have found a rebore and rechamber for 395$ so that still puts the rifle done under a grand, maybe even spend a tiny bit more for an ar15 extractor just to be safe during testing. once we have 1x fired brass....a chamber reamer and actual dies are just a step away. now if i were to take one over "there", itll be on a better action, but a test rifle needs to be finished. this is getting interesting  If you think every possible niche has been filled already, thank a wildcatter! | |||
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Well you do have part of it right...we ARE duplicating something, but you gotta see the reasons why. Cost, plain and simple. As I said earlier, getting a 404 Jeff is a very expensive proposition, not matter if its factory or custom. Now, I would love to have one, but dropping 2500$ or more, seriously eats up into saving up for a safari. Now imagine if you could get that same performance, in a rifle that cost half, or even less? Lets say you take the rebore route, and start with a CZ550 375 H&H. A rebore/rechamber could be done with off the shelf reamers, and thats about 400$ Now lets say 100$ to buy 375 dies and have them opened up. 1500$ and you hit the ground running. 375 H&H brass can have a 404- engraved in rather easy, and same with your barrel. And by doing the rebore, you get to keep the sights, so thats another cost saved over a custom rebarrel. You now have classic 404J performance, and you can put that 1000$+ into your safari fund! Heck thats your PH's tip right there. Another idea that came up with this project is possibly being able to pull the bullets from a 375 H&H and use some sort of hand expander to seat 404 bullets in....now if you can find 404 bullets, you can deffinetly find 375 ammo in the same place. Out of ammo? you just solved that hiccup right there and can continue hunting. Again, theory that will be tested. Increase in recoil should be very slight, so you avoid the typical heavy recoil of the 40cal+ calibers. What we strived for here, is for the avergae joe to be able to attain whats usually in the league of those better off. If you think every possible niche has been filled already, thank a wildcatter! | |||
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Yes I like the idea of the 450 grain Woodleigh @ 2150 but the 1 in 12 twist barrel would be a must. If the 416 Taylor is being pushed to 400@ 2350 than there is no reason this cant do 400 @ 2400 for those who need it. Grenadier... Wildcats are fun and this is not a typical one based on ego, max performance and silk purse/sows ear (Well, maybe a little of the latter) but on previous said qualities. If this is a bad idea then we all must be having the same delusion but if the idea has merrit it will live and thrive. Time will tell. This should be a lot of fun and already is. This IS the WILDCAT board 577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
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I think this is the fact that rather makes it stand out from the typical wildcat! Bigger, better, faster....all been done, and its been beaten to death numerous times. And like Grenadier said...not always to gain anything except notoriety. I like keeping the name 404-375 H&H for the simplicity of saying here is exactly what it is, and the previously mentioned ease of "properly headstamped" brass. Thats why I in know way want anyones name attached to it! No ego's here! Just proven raw performance without going overboard (overbore? lol) If you think every possible niche has been filled already, thank a wildcatter! | |||
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Boomstick I need to check case capacity, but I'm not sure it'll hit these speeds ... the 416Rem is a 400gr at 2400fps comfortably type cartridge, I don't believe the Taylor is. With the case taper and straight case, case capacity is going to have to be less than the 416Rem. But a 450gr at 2150fps should be manageable ... kind of a new and improved 'suped up 450/400NE'. I think the 435PH (416Rem case at 435") hit 2250fps with 450gr, if this can get to 2150fps there's your heavy stopper load, 400gr and 347gr projectiles for regular duties, sized down 429" for plinking!! MHS, I've got two actions ... M17 sporter or a Rem700 ... its almost in enough 'bad taste' to be worthy of the Rem700!  Having said that it'll really feed smooth through a Rem700, plus I already have an extended mag box so may go 4+1. Once the holiday season is over I'll contact a local 'smith here in Oz that I'm sure will be able to do this easily and get his thoughts about throwing a 423" barrel on my Rem700. Will cost though as to fulfill the 'poor taste' theme, I'll have to buy an SPS stock for $80, paint the metal work and fit Rem open sights. Cheers... Con | |||
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Con you are cracking me up! Maybe a mud flap girl too! Well as far as capacity goes Winchester 375 brass has almost 97 grains capacity so this will be pushing 100. The 425 Express has just above 90 and it is being pushed to 400 @ 2400. I am not thinking hyper performance like you I think 450@ 2150 is a great benchmark. It is great to have Gun Cranks like you here Con. I was thinking about the "Bubba crimp" idea of yours and thought it would be great for resized pistol bullets where the canalure would be in the wrong place. 300 grain pistol bullets @ 2500+ is a great idea. I wonder how heavy Speer gold dots are... Hmmmm. 577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
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boomstick, On the bright side, if it all went to hell, the barrel would be an ideal candidate for rechambering to 404Stalker (423WSM), 423RUM, 404Jeffery, 425Express and shortened a bit and placed on a 30/06 action, 10.75x68 ... so there's even a viable exit strategy!! It's just a set of rebored dies and your education that you've got invested! Cheers... Con | |||
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Con - those are my thoughts exactly! Leave the barrel rather unfinished at first, and at 24" to see what we'll be capable of actually hitting numbers wise. If it doesn't work out, or looks like it'll lose a lot of velocity with a shorter barrel (I'd like to have 20-22" idealy) then just rechamber to 404J and call it a day If you think every possible niche has been filled already, thank a wildcatter! | |||
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Yes I thought about the flexibility of all the rechambers since cleaning up the chamber is not an issue. Speer makes a 270 grain gold dot. Gold dots are AWESOME at higher velocities. Could not keep them inside a pig after 7 tries. They hold together and do some great damage. Yes it is not an expensive "experiment" and that is appealing. 577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
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Con - I've been looking for a P17/14 locally, but the prices have really gone up lately, about to the point that I may as well spend a few hundred more on a better action and go from there. I have a good feeling something will fall in my lap very soon out of nowhere though! I do like your idea of using a R700 LOL I mean, it IS the poor mans 404, and with all the other cost saving measures, its almost fitting to be housed in the most loathed of all big bore actions hahahaha. Shit, that savage 110 is looking reeeeeaaaaal sweet right now....I could even try my hand at refinishing the crap wood stock. Hmmm If you think every possible niche has been filled already, thank a wildcatter! | |||
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MHS, Does Savage make an economical 375H&H length action? I suppose they have released their stainless/synthetic 375H&H but its over $1000 new here. Be easy to do a swap barrel on a Savage though! The Rem700s are ideal as all the standard length chamberings are in magnum length actions ... why make it hard on yourself? I've owned x2 375H&Hs and a 470Capstick on a Rem700 ... they do the job well. At high recoil levels though, my knuckle wears the bolt handle so I think a mid calibre big bore is as large as I'd take it these days. I note that the late George Hoffman had no issues with building 416Hoffman's on PF actions. Regarding the 'bubba crimp' ... the neck may end up long enough to hold onto projectiles quite well and resist setback ... couldn't find any 404Jeffery projectiles today so couldn't make dummies to try through a Rem700 action. Cheers... Con | |||
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the 375 shoulder starts 2.4" up the case so the ghost shoulder should start right there too so we are looking at about a .45" long "Neck" or tension area as to have a tad over cal length. 577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
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Con - I do believe the magazine situation on a Savage is like the R700 and M70, one length. I know they have made RUMs and the H&H on the 110/116. Old 110s are a dime a dozen here right around the 300$ mark and often times under. Pitty i dont have extra spending money, went to the gunshow today and there was Mark x 375 for 550$! Ugh!! I have no hangups about using a PF, heck I would rather prefer to use a cheap PF M70! I have thought about using the one i have now....but then Id have to get another M70 to put my 300 Wby barrel on, so it would be a bit superflous. Saw one for 395....I know if when Im ready I can almost always find one for around 400 or under. Just a matter of being in the right place at the right time If you think every possible niche has been filled already, thank a wildcatter! | |||
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Found some old Winchester 375H&H brass that I'd unsuccessfully tried fireforming to 458Lott many years ago. Ran a 416 expander into them and it leaves only a slight shoulder bulge. Necks are measuring at 0.011-0.012" per side, so 0.022-0.024" total or 0.444-0.446" theoretically with a seated projectile. I think a 44/40 Lee die will make a suitable neck sizer/expander and possibly bullet seater. Cheers... Con | |||
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The Winchester brass is known for being the thinnest... We will eventualy need to get a measurement on all the major manufacturers necked up brass but we can guess within a couple thou. With a 423 bullet in it it will be interesting to see the affect of necking up the brass. Thanks for the update Con. 577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
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I was planning on using the Hornady basic belted, I'll let you guys know the weights and measurements once I get them. Are we going to want to stick to the thinner stuff Boom? If so that means no Norma or Lapua or Nosler If you think every possible niche has been filled already, thank a wildcatter! | |||
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Guys, Hornady basic is running closer to 0.015" per side, I'll have to track down the old Norma 375H&H brass I have here for a look. To be honest I dont care if there's a bit of slop in the neck region due to brass variations ... this isn't a varminter. Going to visit a friend today that hopefully has a 44/40 die set ... lets see if it'll seat a projectile. If that works, I'll post some pictures and then send the dummy to a 'smith to see whether it can proceed. Cheers... Con | |||
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Well I am just curious to see how all the necked up brass looks like to see how well the necking up gets rid of the shoulder and how much of a ring it leaves and case capacity. Winchester brass will probably neck up better and have the greatest capacity. We will probably be right at 100 grains I predict or a tad shy but whatever it is it will be enough for the goal of reproducing the 404 ballistics. 577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
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Con... Thanks again for all your great contributions to the development to this latest AR cat Yes... a little slop is ideal here for fitting all brass and to keep it feeding like the grand ol' 375. This cat is about function, cost, duplicate performance and shits & grins This is comming along better than I had hoped thanks to Y'all  577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
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