Agreed Boom! I went back and read my very fisrt post about the poor mans 404....and look where its at now! Con I must also agree about your contribution, things really started to look most promising when you started giving insight and now an interest in building one yourself! Damn I cant wait to get some play around cash in the bank so I can get the ball rolling on at least picking up the action.

Guys,
When S&F logs on, he'll hopefully remember to post a picture of some dummies I made up ... made up a 423 'Taylor', 423/8mmRemMag (that looks damn nice too!), 423Express and the 404/375. Even S&F looked at the 404/375 and thought it looked like a minature Lott.
Cheers...
Con

Awesome Con/Short and Fat!
More skinny than mini but I know what you mean
35 thou more taper and less diameter.
In the case family of the Capstick and the lott of belt but no shoulder.
I thought there was just way too much coincidence of the 375 shoulder and the 404 neck to let it go by without noticing mixed with a itch MHS was trying to scratch add some good ol Ausie gun cranks and now we have another great AR collaberation
Eagerly awaiting pics!
Thanks again!

Ditto! Pics will be great!!

One comment on the 404/8mm...wouldnt that be nearly identical to the 424 OKH? Basically our 404-375 "improved"

Sure would make an even EASIER conversion though, rebore from a 416 Rem to 424 OKH...thats only a 1 step rebore, could be done for aroudn 250$

quote:

Originally posted by MileHighShooter:
Ditto! Pics will be great!!

One comment on the 404/8mm...wouldnt that be nearly identical to the 424 OKH? Basically our 404-375 "improved"

I just reckon it's a 423/416RemMag ... very impressive looking however! The 404/375 (I keep wanting to add "H&H") fits and feeds in my 8mmRemMag easy as ... but also looks perfect for the M17 sporter. I've PM'd S&F to hurry up, bet you he's forgotten his photobucket password too!
Cheers...
Con

Go ahead and add the H&H! I mean, its not based on a 375 Ruger, or Weatherby, or RUM... may as well include the H&H so people know where its spawned from.

Man....change the 8 or use the M17....thats a hard one con!!! I'd opt for the 1917 personally, there are far to few 8mmRM's in the world as it is One of the very few Rem carts I think highly of

That got me searching Con! I had been looking for "P17" and got very few hits. I'm finding loads of 1917's! Many in the 2-400$ range which I think is much more acceptable then the 5-900$ P17's are going for (and thats for eddystones too)

Would a 1917 30-06 be suitable to upgrade for this project? I mean, is it gonna have the length we need?

quote:

Originally posted by MileHighShooter:
Would a 1917 30-06 be suitable to upgrade for this project? I mean, is it gonna have the length we need?

Oh that is funny ... enough length in an M17!! Tomorrow I have a few hours free, I'll take some photos and show you how much you don't need to worry! Action is HUGE, magazine box is already long enough with space to spare infront of the 400gr Woodleigh seated at the cannelure. Won't feed through the 30/06 rails, but may go 4+1 once the magazine is widened if it's an original drop style and not a straightened sporter floorplate. Just had a 'DOH' moment ... I have a spare M17 bottom metal and magazine box somewhere ... I'll drop some in and take pictures. Guess I'll need another photobucket account.

Tell you what ... I think I will go with the M17, for starters I can set it up as a singleshot because the guy chambering (if he can do this chamber) hates feeding work, later on I can sort out the magazine box and rails. The M17 has the weight to soak up the recoil with ease.
Cheers...
Con

Oops ... action length huge, magazine box about 1mm short. I'll try posting pictures tomorrow.
Cheers...
Con

Sounds good Con! I'm excited to see what you can do with the 1917. If it works out, thats probably the absolute cheapest route for me.

Chomping at the bit...

Well, S&F must be busy in the shop. Just the one happy snap for starters as he has the rest of my dummy brass ... I'll do the other 423" 'cats mentioned tonight if the kids will go to bed early!!

Okay, lets try adding the photo.
Cheers...
Con

Well, there it is ... next time I'll resize a bit smaller ... still learning.

Couple of things ... the 404-375 dummies where made up using 'failed' fireforming brass I was trying to make into 458Lott. They're hence a bit wonky, it didnt help that I used a tapered expander to open to 0.416", then a Lee flare tool to flare the mouth, then seated as straight as I could with a 416Taylor seater. The Winchester brass is thin ... I'm measuring 0.446" across the necks with projectile seated, hence a touch of the shoulder remains. If I used Hornady basic brass I'd say the shoulder will disappear as that should be spot on 0.453". I'm currently chasing up a set of Lee 375H&H dies and 44/40 die ... I think the 44/40 will work as a neck sizer and seater!!

The M17 magazine box is shown and you can see its just slightly too short. In the photo it looks like it'll fit, but the base of the cartridge is even with the table, not rear of the magazine box. It's close though. I'll check width later and see how it goes for width.

The 470Capstick case ... see the 'interuption line' where the CH/4D expander used to strike the case wall internally. That was the 'dimensional error' CH/4D made when they tried to go 2 die set for the 470Capstick, now they do 3 die sets.

Now, hopefully S&F will end up posting pictures with the comparison cases ... I tell you the 423/8mmRemMag looks bloody good too!! I think I better understand why Ray is a 423" lover ... side to side ... the 400gr 0.423" somehow looks 'gooder' than a 400gr 0.416". The 423Ruger would be an awesome beast!
Cheers...
Con

Just to add, next week I'll be making the call to the 'smith to see whether he can cut a chamber into one of his 0.423" barrels. What I'll be asking for is the 375H&H reamer to be used and followed by a necker to produce a parallel neck for a 0.423"calibre. If I use Hornady brass at 0.015" per side, that'll make outside neck diameter on the case equal to 0.453", plus 0.005" clearance as its a big game rifle ... I think I'll be asking for a chamber neck cut at 0.457". Winchester brass will be looser due to thin necks but I'll live with that! Do those numbers sound right or am I over-thinking this??

You know ... whatever the 400H&H will do, this should equal.
Cheers...
Con

Thanks Con!

Isnt it a simple beauty!

Glad to see it next to the Capstick.

Thanks again for your help.

I think .015 + .005 is about right.

Great debut!

Razzed up S&F, he's flat-out so comparison pictures to the 423 'Taylor', 425Express and 423/8mmRemMag will be forthcoming. Nice bonus is the cannelure position of the 400gr Woodleigh is at the right spot to maintain a length just short of 3.6" ... the 450gr will go back into the powder space, but will not impact on length as cannelure I believe is at the same spot. Just need to see 2150fps with a 450gr for me to deem it worthwhile. Hornady's 0.429" 265gr sized down as plinkers, plus the cheapest 240gr I can find.

Got a quote of $150 to get the M17 feeding this if the guy that cuts the chamber doesn't want to do the feed work ... which he probably will as it shouldn't be a thing of great difficulty.
I suppose I'd better start reinforcing the M17 sporter stock, just in case?!

If it goes to hell ... a 416Rem reamer will be judiciously applied to make a 423 Remington Magnum.
Cheers...
Con

Con - simply amazing mate! I can not believe the amount of work done by you on this cartridge in such a short time. I love it! Looks fabulous and makes a perfect lil buddy next to that capstick. Maybe someday we can get a pic of the 404-375, 458 Lott and 470 Capstick with a nice caption "shoulders? who needs em?!"

Man that 1917 magazine is juuuuuuust short. Looks like just a tiny bit of shaving and its good to go. Might have to round up a P14 magazine to see if it would work. I have seen them online fairly cheap, if it works it would be cheaper then having it opened up possibly.

Did you have the 1917 bolt opened up to .532 or did you use a P14 bolt?

I have a good feeling 2150 with the 450s will be hit.....real good feeling!

Again Con, Bravo!!!

If the 404-375 don't make make 450@ 2,150 I will stop wildcatting for a week

MHS,
The P14 bolt is the right boltface size already unlike the M17. The 'smith I spoke with today suggested using a P14 bolt, but seriously, I'd rather they open the original. The P14 magazine box is shorter again, but angled at rear, using the M17 box makes sense as its relatively easy to find the extra litte bit of length from it.

boom stick,
I'll keep you to that promise! First bottle-neck is to find a 'smith with appropriate reamers, if we get past that ... after that its just a matter of saving a little $$$.
Cheers...
Con

Boom-Milehigh-Con

All should be commended highly for putting this together. I have been following along, but have made no comments until now.

Job well done, I am 100% positive the cartridge will do anything you would like to do and be easy to make, load, and shoot.

However, if you don't put this on a Winchester M70 don't talk to me anymore about it! You see, I am having a vision--Classic Winchester M70-fine piece of wood-slick as butter! In fact so slick that you can't even feel the bolt pick up the cartridge when you start to chamber!

Shame on all of you for thinking anything else! You can't put this fine cartridge on something common!

Michael

Ya know Michael...the 2nd one I build I could see be really nice and fancy on a M70! But the first couple HAVE to be done on the cheap, thats the whole purpose of the poor mans 404! Of course if Con builds his on the cheap and it works out great, I guess I could always do mine on a CRF M70 lol But dang....1917's are just so cheap and available....it could still be made pretty

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
Boom-Milehigh-Con

All should be commended highly for putting this together. I have been following along, but have made no comments until now.

Job well done, I am 100% positive the cartridge will do anything you would like to do and be easy to make, load, and shoot.

However, if you don't put this on a Winchester M70 don't talk to me anymore about it! You see, I am having a vision--Classic Winchester M70-fine piece of wood-slick as butter! In fact so slick that you can't even feel the bolt pick up the cartridge when you start to chamber!

Shame on all of you for thinking anything else! You can't put this fine cartridge on something common!

Michael

Thanks M458...

We just dont have any high dollar makers right now but all are doing what they can and then some. I concur a slick feeding cart needs a slick action soon!
If you want to do the slick research we would be happy to have you on team 404-375!

You guys are teasing me! Milehigh already knows I have nearly half dozen Winchesters sitting around! I have probably 500 pieces of NEW Winchester 375 brass here (don't have, never owned a 375-used to make 458 Lott-358 STA-470 Capstick out of it). It would be a fairly easy jump for me.

Will consider for sure.

Boom
Still asking this question-off thread-your 500 Kill All-on another thread you say it is .510--Jeffe says .500???? We are working close-I have a 2.8 inch ultra-.500 caliber-500MDM.

Michael

Come on Michael....you know you want one LOL

Besides, if you and Con are the first ones to build rifles, I think it would be cool to see the opposite ends of the spectrum! Con on his sporterized cheap milsurp, you on a classy refined slick action.

My budget falls somewhere in between HAHA....I really like the 1917, but I also liked your suggestions of the M70 we spoke of. Maybe I'll have to go my original intention and stick to a PF M70 as the inbetweeny-weenie

Sorry Michael...
Did not know the question was still open. The original concept was to go to 510 but after cases were made it was evident that 505 and 500 were the best we could do without making cases that measure 555. At the casehead. So the 500 Kill All is a .500" for now and maybe a 505 down the road to duplicate original 505 performance. Going 510 on the ultra will have to be a casemouth headspace option for now.

]Originally posted by michael458:
You guys are teasing me! Milehigh already knows I have nearly half dozen Winchesters sitting around! I have probably 500 pieces of NEW Winchester 375 brass here (don't have, never owned a 375-used to make 458 Lott-358 STA-470 Capstick out of it). It would be a fairly easy jump for me.

Will consider for sure.

Boom
Still asking this question-off thread-your 500 Kill All-on another thread you say it is .510--Jeffe says .500???? We are working close-I have a 2.8 inch ultra-.500 caliber-500MDM.

Michael[/QUOTE]

Boom - you should talk to Michael about some high quality .500 bullets, he might have something you'd enjoy

Boom

I think we must talk. But I don't want to hi jack this thread about the .500s. I have 5 .500 caliber cartridges, one similar to yours-no belt the 500 MDM.

Drop me a line michael458@earthlink.net if you want. We have developed some real .500 rifle bullets. Might find useful.

Milehigh

Well maybe, but you know I am dead in to these little shortys-and While I have thousands of 510-.500-458-416 bullets on the shelves-I don't have the first .423! Plenty of brass-plenty of rifles plenty of everything else.

??????

Michael

Milehigh

Our last posts crossed at the same time-just telling boom same thing about bullets.

Michael

Great minds all think alike eh? I think those .500s you spoke of would fit Booms KA just perfect. I have also been thinking about those bullets and the fella you were talking about....now if he could mill out a hole in the back and we could put some lead....

I think this would be a bit refreshing for you lol you DO have so many short mags and like you said....there is no .423....yet

Milehigh

Yep, great minds! If boom or you send me an email I will send you some photos of the bullets. I tried that photobucket thing, took me a half day to figure it out, now I have forgot how.

Thinking about putting tungsten in the rear to begin with, but the cost was astronomical! We got it now however and they work like a champ. For the 500 MDM I have 550 gr bullets-plus all the others that we designed for the 50s.

Well long is good-but I just come off the long kick 3 yrs ago with 416 Rem-458 Lott-470 Capstick-510 Wells-358 STA-358 Ultra and so forth. On the short end now for awhile. But I still have these long rifles and long brass?

????????
Michael

Michael,
Does it make you feel better that the M17 is a Winchester? That smooth feed feel is evident in the Rem700 as well, but I decided against that as to fit the 'poor man's magnum' theme it's best placed in a $250 M17 sporter. I think that for another $650 local pesos, she'll be barrelled, chambered, feeding, fitted with a set of Rem open sights and ready to Boom!

Given the weight inherent in the M17 action ... you guys have any thoughts on a barrel length and contour? Thinking 23" with a contour that gives around 0.650" to 0.700" at the muzzle.
Cheers...
Con

Con... I think you should be able to get your goal with a 20" barrel but a 23" and a medium weight profile will make this thing kick closer to a 30-06

Con

If a M17 is a Winchester then it is just peachy! Don't say "R" in my company please. Don't matter to me as long as you stamp Winchester on it somewhere I be happy!

With boom, if you can get what you want in 20 inches that would be great.

I think I will leave this one to you guys, I am going to work on the next B&M cartridge in 9.3. I am on a 9.3 kick right this minute.

Boom
Got the email, gonna go take some pics of the 500 MDM and send with some various bullet pics to you.

Michael

Have to agree with Con on the whole theme of the poor mans Jeff by using a 1917. Even better, since the Enfields were English design, as were both of our starting parent cartridges...but the design is American, might as well use an American made Enfield too lol. Just FITS!

I'm shooting for 20-22" as longer tubes just feel akward to me. Most of my hunting rifles have 24" but I almost always shoot in the field from a sitting position so its a moot point there. For this, I see standing shots being a goal so I'll go for stubby. But I may go with a slightly heavier barrel profile to keep the weight up.

Sorry Con took a little while o get these PICS up

As Con mentioned here's a few wildcats to get the mind ticking over

enjoy



regards
S&F

Looks great! I was kind of wondering what the difference between the 423 Taylor and 425 Express was..now I see the Taylor is "improved"

Many thanks S&F!!

MHS,
The 'Taylor' cartridge is a once fired 416Taylor, the 425Express is a once fored (I think) 300WinMag just necked straight up. Its tough getting 458WinMag brass in Australia at the moment so it was a double experiment to see whether we can make 416Taylor brass for S&F from 300WinMags. I think with a trim and a bit of shoulder bumping ... she'll be apples. The picture is a bit deceptive in that the Express has a shoulder well ahead of the Taylor!!

The 300WinMag necked to 0.411" ...would be sweet!! With the choice of a 300gr spitzer plus heavy-weights, a true all-rounder! Just another off topic observation, Lee 416Taylor dies with the expander removed resize cases to hold a 0.411" rather nicely!
Cheers...
Con

Con - you speak of the 411 KDF As in the same KDF who makes muzzle brakes. They did the 300 Win Mag/.411 a few years back. I think there are some members here who have one. Pretty much on par with the 416 Taylor as far as weight/velocity go. I mean they're only .005" difference lol

Thanks to RIP for finding and posting this pic

Here we see the short and long OKH and the shoulders.

I must say that I love how repeatable anywhere in the world this is due to using altered or right off the shelf stuff to reproduce this idea. Can be done without special reamers, dies or hard to get brass ect.