Welcome to the club oscar
Nice pics!
Glad you see the benefits of this idea.
More proof that forming is easy as pie.
Yes a regular reamer can be ordered or open up 375 dies and use a 404 neck/throater.
MileHighShooter. Did you want to order a regular reamer and we will chip in?
I am a little conflicted as to what the best brass length will be.
The 404 Jeffery case is 2.86" long
The Lott 2.8"
The 375 HH 2.85"
Questions as to what length is best or if any OAL issues.
Is there a problem going to 2.85" like the 375 HH?
Are most 404 bullets shorter tip to canalure?
Forming brass from Lott brass will be easy but shorter right? What is the length of untrimmed Lott brass?
Since most of these made will be rebores of the 375 will there be an oal issues if 2.85"
Will feeding be better because of the non spitzer bullets with a 2.80" case?

Thanks for the input.

Boom

Oscar, what's the COAL on that dummy you made?

I think the shorter OAL might better, 2.80 like the Lott, 400gr 404 bullets look rather long. Plus there are the 450 woodleighs now too!
Boom, the cannelure depends on if you're buying 404J bullets or 10.75x68 bullets. The 10.75 have a short tip to cannelure to fit in the stubby cartridge, but 350gr Jeff bullets are a lot longer. Plus I see a lot of FPS bullets being used, so going 2.85 may run into feeding probs....but I'm not the person to ask lol.

I think it would be wise to chip in on a normal reamer, so that we standardize the dimensions and don't have anything differ between the different chambers by how the smith opened up the neck/throat. If we do that, then we can have dies made that won't differe either.

Earlier in the thread someone said they were qouted what, like 145$ and 4-6 weeks? Split a few ways that's cheap, and its consistent if we are all using the same actual reamer. Then we really get to see the differences between the rifles/loading between all of us. I still want a shorter barrel, in the 21-22.5" range as that fits me better...but maybe Oscar wants 25 and Boom wants 24?

Testing barrels for ballistics seem to be 26" but I think after 22" the return on length is minimal. Being that this would have less powder to burn than the 404 Jeffery I don't know why you would need over 22" but in a rebore I would leave the barrel the same length as the original 375.

quote:

Earlier in the thread someone said they were qouted what, like 145$ and 4-6 weeks? Split a few ways that's cheap, and its consistent if we are all using the same actual reamer.

Con
What length are you trimming to?
Need a consensus on the 2.8" or 2.85" for the reamer but if the reamer is 2.85" both lengths will chamber.
2.85" reamer will also allow less brass trimming.

Hello Gentlemen,

Thankyou for the welcome,I am loving it here.

As far as length, I would go for 2.80". I would think that most people would go for the cheaper 375 brass and neck up.Going with Lott brass and necking down to .423 would tend to lengthen it a bit.For those needing headstamped we may be able to get a group buy,I would think 50-100 pieces each would give good duty for "official use". Standard necked up 375's would do yeoman's duty at home and cheap to buy in comparison.

I also feel that when considering a conversion most would just take a factory 375 and rebore the existing barrel,that would be the less complicated way of doing it as getting a new barrel from start to finish with contouring,threading,chambering,new sights & bluing can cost as much as a new rifle.Also those rifles will most likely have 24" Bbls.

If we do get a number of people to chip in it would be nice to get the best quality reamer we could find,I'd rather spend a few bucks more and have a top notch chamber.

As for bullets, I have been looking at the Northfork 340 Gr Spitzer for general work and the Woodleigh & Hornady 400 gr. solids. If and when I start working up loads the longer shank on the solids is going to take up a lot of space considering the cannelure positions especially on Woodleighs 450 solid ( I really like that one ). I am hoping after this takes off maybe Wooldleigh can take an order for these bullets with the cannelure moved down a bit or add a second lower down.

I agree with you fellows in that I would like to get this started.I would like to have a rifle ready before next winter if possible and try to do some preliminary load testing.

Have a good one, Oscar.

P.S. I think I saw a thread that stated CDNN is selling Rem's old CRF .458's & .375's for 599.00 each ?? that & a rebore would probably keep you in the 1100-1200 range if no problems arise with feeding.

I saw that thread too, but I can't find any info. Its not on their webpage, it was a customer email special. Gander Mountain was closing the 798's out as well, but my 2 local stores ran out of the african models long before they went on sale.

I am really falling in love with M70's lol thats why I'm tempted to just pay the cash for the safari model...plus, you get the dual cross bolts, an already slicked up action, the front swivel band, and good sights. Picking up a cheapo 798 would save money on the rifle, but those actions are R O U G H to say the least, and add in some NECG sights, a barrel band fitted on, adding some more strength with cross bolts or an extra recoil lug (another feature its supposed to have) plus personally, I would want the M70 safety conversion. and we're talking about what, 700-1000$+ more additional work? That puts you right back at the new M70 price

Oscar,

I checked out cutrifle.com, looks like a good company! And cheaper then some other rebore places I have looked at. If everything worked out right (which would be a task upon itself!) it would be great to get a few rebores done at the same time with the same reamer, maybe they would give us a break on having several same rebores done at the same time?

Hi MileHighShooter,

Your idea is good and may be possible,but it may be difficult to get several people lined up at the same time for a group rebore. We can always try...

If I'm not mistaken you would have to call CDNN for the rifles.They are a little on the rough side but if someone wants a Bigbore at a good price,and if they desire to upgrade it later due to funds its not to bad...Oscar

Hello Gentlemen,

Just out of plain curiosity I made up a 404-375 Short.Made from .458 Win brass and necked down to accept a .423 bullet just like the standard model.
Case length is 2.5" and it has a .4" neck length with a outside neck Dia. of .453", to make the neck any longer would impinge into the case body excessively.

I really have no intention of making one,just wanted to see what one would look like.It is in the same vein as the .458 Win to the Lott. Oscar.

OK...If I have a 375 barrel rebored (which is already stamped 375 H&H) and form the 404-375 from 375 H&H cases (which is already stamped 375 H&H) what's the chances of getting in and out of Johannesburg's airport w/o questions???

Hi RaySendero,
Take a look at my picture above of the M70 that is marked 375 WBY. That used to show H&H. Any good gunsmith can take care of the text on a barrel.

As far as headstamped brass,if we could get a group buy together we could have correct headstamp brass made to our specs. Oscar

ray,

just have "404-" engraved in front of the 375! That was part of the beauty of this cartridge...simpl step away from being correctly headstamped

quote:

Originally posted by MileHighShooter:
ray,

just have "404-" engraved in front of the 375! That was part of the beauty of this cartridge...simpl step away from being correctly headstamped

MHS,

OK - I get it now. That is a good idea!

PS: oscar, I saw the pic - Like it - Innovative simple solution!

Quote "OK - I get it now. That is a good idea!"
________________________________________________________

Thanks

yes just add the 404- to the barrel and the headstamp to be 100% legit
just make sure the muzzle tip is more than .625" Cut the barrel back if needed.
This is as easy as it gets.

Man how did I miss the shorty?? I kind of like the looks of that bad boy too....What kind of numbers do you think we would be talking about with the straight taper 458 case? Almost wondering if that would be a better idea then a 10.75x68, for a lower velocity but lower recoil version of 404-375.

Its close to the 425 express, but if you look back at page 3 with the pics S&F put up, you can see its still different, there is a sharp shoulder on the express version.

Do we forge on with a short AND long version? Very tempting, should be a simple neck down from 458 Win brass, and thats just as available as 375 brass.

What say ye? I WAS strongly thinking about going the 10.75 route to work my way up to the big bore recoil (total noob on that!) but this is tempting as well. Besides, it could always be punched out later, yes? And since it head spaces on the belt...could I safely fire the 2.5" in the 2.8" chamber?

A short version would work swimmingly since the functional impact velocities of the bullets would be fine @ 2,150FPS but if it has the same taper there would be a verrrry short neck tension area. the same chamber would work for both.

Hello Again,

The short version was done out of curiosity.Although it might indeed make a interesting cartridge.Forming was very simple,just run a .458 case into a .375 sizing die,the case then has the full taper of the .375 case with as Boom Stick stated almost no neck.

I then ran it for .4 in. into a .40 S&W carbide die,any further and it would "dig" into the case creating a shoulder.I then re-expanded the neck to accept .423 bullets.

As far as ballistics my guess would be about 2100-2150 FPS. for a 350-400 Gr. bullet in a 24 in. barrel, But this is just an assumption.You could feasibly shoot it in a standard .404-.375 chamber but you also have to take into account the shorts neck,it would have to re-expand in the standards chamber.If you were to fire a short in a standard chamber the bullet from the short would be aligned in the standards chamber neck then have to jump from there into the free bore.I am not saying it would not work, it might work well but most likely you may have accuracy issues and a fair amount of velocity loss.

If you did not have to apply a neck to the short it would be a similar case as the .458 WM to the Lott.But unfortunately the case taper will not allow it.

I just received a new digital caliper,Last one broke, and hope to take some accurate measurements of a few formed .404-.375 cases.I will post the measurements as soon as I can get to it.

Just waiting for Winchester to sell me a new .375 H&H to get started. Oscar

Do you have a 375 on order?

Hi Boom Stick,

My dealer is going to pick me up a .458 & .375 as soon as he can get hold of them. As of right now we are both waiting. Oscar

Cool...
Should not be too hard to find on gunbroker ect

so more or less, in the short chamber, we would basically be creating a 10.75x68, but with a belt and easier to find, cheaper brass? I very much like that idea....except it was more or less already done by Bent with his 425 Fossdal, and his has plenty of neck tension, plus it'll fit more down the magazine.

MileHighShooter,

I agree on all counts,The only advantage the short would have is the ease of acquiring brass.For a round used in a standard action I would probably go with a .425 Express or Bent's round which I also think is a wonderful idea and an ideal use for belted '06 brass.

The real advantage to the long is the ease in making cases from .375 H&H brass and being able to turn a standard .375 into a real Big Bore with a simple re-bore and chamber,and having a rifle that would be a little more svelte than your traditional heavy.

Its true that you can re-bore to any number of rounds,such as the Lott, or .416 Rem. but you just can't get past the ease and availability of .375 brass and not having to fire form brass to get the round you want.You can buy ready made brass in these caliber's but they are expensive and in some cases difficult to get.The .375 is everywhere and one simple pass through a die and your ready to go.Very cost effective. Oscar

True on all accounts Oscar!

Did your buddy give any hints about when we might start seeing the Safari's show up? I know it doesn't quite fit the "poor man" theme with an outright 1000$ rifle purchase price...but when I started thinking about stuff like the extra big recoil lug, the barrel band, the sights, the dual cross bolts....it DOES turn into quite a deal.

As soon as I start seeing them become available I'm going to head over to Gander Mountain and order one up.

One other temptation however...GM has a Ruger No 1 in 375 thats been sitting there for almost a month now. Its VERY tempting to pick it up for 900 and have a single shot done up in 404-375.....tempting.

Hello All,

I was able to take some measurements of a newly formed case.So far using Winchester .375 H&H brass after being sized in a RCBS die I measured at the shoulder .4415 in.,this is a sized case,the books show .4478 in. at the shoulder.

After expanding, the case gave a length of 2.830 in. this was then trimmed to 2.800 in. Neck Dia. showed .4430 in. with a neck length of .4170 in. At the base of the neck the normal taper of the original case proceeds from there.

Cases made from cylindrical brass will most likely show a slightly larger outside neck diameter due to the compression of the brass at sizing.These numbers are just for casual observation in that an expert reamer specialist will know what tolerances are needed to create a functional reamer.

Over all I think this cartridge will work as advertised with little in the way of problems. It looks like it is just one of those things that happen to fall into place just right every once in a while.

Good job MileHighShooter & BoomStick I really think you may have a winner here. Oscar.

Another picture showing the .404-.375, the one I just measured flanked by The Lott & H&H.

Thanks for the accurate measurements!
It would be good to measure all the major brass neck and "shoulder" junction measurements to be sure of flawless function when considering the reamer.
We want to get this right the first time.
Seems th. 375 was just meant to be necked up to .423" 404 bullet.

I am curious to see just how shootable thus cart will be from 2150 to 2400 with 350 to 450 grain pills

I am very interested in 2 bullets, the Northfork 340 gr. spitzer & Woodleighs 450 gr. solid and soft. If a crimp groove could be placed in a position to allow full use of a long magazine this round will really shine.

I am getting the feeling it may have the punch of a .458 WM and the reach of a .416 Rem.

I like that thinking of the punch and reach.
One of my favorite advantages of the 404 is the lower functional impact velocities for downloading if desired.
That and the recoil similar to the 375 but larger heavier bullet all the way up to a projected 400@ 2400 hammer.

Ya gotta admit this thing if started 100 years ago would be as popular as any major big bore today... Maybe in 30 years this might be as popular as the lott if picked up by the PH's in Africa.

It seems the OAL is the same as the factory 375.

One thing I am looking forward to is seeing the reports of the feeding. From what I gather it should be an excellent feeder with minimal issues in a 375 conversion. A CZ 550 with FIVE in the magazine and one in the pipe is quite the firepower. One more than the 404.

It would be great to get some PH feedback on this. I think I will link this in the African hunting forum to get some opinions.

quote:

Originally posted by oscar:
Hello All,

I was able to take some measurements of a newly formed case.So far using Winchester .375 H&H brass after being sized in a RCBS die I measured at the shoulder .4415 in.,this is a sized case,the books show .4478 in. at the shoulder.

After expanding, the case gave a length of 2.830 in. this was then trimmed to 2.800 in. Neck Dia. showed .4430 in. with a neck length of .4170 in. At the base of the neck the normal taper of the original case proceeds from there.

Cases made from cylindrical brass will most likely show a slightly larger outside neck diameter due to the compression of the brass at sizing.These numbers are just for casual observation in that an expert reamer specialist will know what tolerances are needed to create a functional reamer.

Over all I think this cartridge will work as advertised with little in the way of problems. It looks like it is just one of those things that happen to fall into place just right every once in a while.

Good job MileHighShooter & BoomStick I really think you may have a winner here. Oscar.

Another picture showing the .404-.375, the one I just measured flanked by The Lott & H&H.

Some positive responses so far...

http://forums.accuratereloadin...1411043/m/2521058521

Hello,

Just a few thoughts on case length for any interested but specifically for MileHighShooter & BoomStick.

At first I was leaning towards the overall case length of 2.80 in.I am now reconsidering that the case length should be set at 2.85 in.

I would think that most individuals will, including those that are in more remote areas with less access to the appropriate tools needed to adjust and square a case mouth or just cannot find the time to do so will simply expand a .375 case and load up.Now with the case and chamber set for 2.80 in. with a heavy load and stout bullet in high temperatures this case if not trimmed correctly will be at approximately 2.83 in. possibly causing a drastic increase in pressure and locking up the action after the first shot.I would not like to hear of a worst case scenario if this occurred.

From what I have been able to see a .375 expanded to .423 averages its length from 2.85 to 2.83 when expanded.A trim to even it out if desired although not necessary will give about 2.82 in. If case are made professionally for us we could stipulate 2.85 in. case length and the matter of 2-3 hundredth's of an in. for an expanded .375 case in a 2.85 in. chamber will not matter.

This would not only lengthen the neck area slightly but give us a little more of a safety factor. What do you think? Oscar

Expert opinions welcome...
I would like the chamber to be 2.85" so that brass made from 458 Lott to 375 to unformed basic would work. I agree that most will neck up 375 brass and get a 2.82" case but will stretch out further with a few firings so you might never need to trim the brass.
If loaded to the same oal there is no issue in terms of accuracy and pressure. Pressure would only be an issue when considering top loads anyway.
If crimped to a slightly shorter oal that will act as a kind of freebore and will add little in terms of pressure until the rifling is engaged.
To be true to it's nomenclature being 2.85" is needed.
I think all loads should be loaded to the same 2.85" brass length OAL crimp or not for uniformity.
Considering this to be a DG round there has to be no room for error. A 2.85" chamber will work for all lengths 2.80" to 2.85" since this is headspacing on the belt and all we are talking here is neck lenfth. All that is needed is deciding on max OAL of 3.65"

What matters most is feeding and firing reliably. Part of what makes this great is the simplicity and being to use any brass adds to that theme. The 375 donor gun should already be designed to feed this round well so having the chamber neck length to fire new unformed brass, used 375 brass, new 375 brass, fired or new Lott brass just keeps making this more desirable to more people. If you have a bunch of used 375 brass or Lott brass you might just say "Hey... I'll give this a shot"

What is the harm in having a 2.85" chamber?
What is the harm in having dies set up for 2.85"?

Also what is the opinion on two or 3 die sets for this?

quote:

Originally posted by oscar:
Hello,

Just a few thoughts on case length for any interested but specifically for MileHighShooter & BoomStick.

At first I was leaning towards the overall case length of 2.80 in.I am now reconsidering that the case length should be set at 2.85 in.

I would think that most individuals will, including those that are in more remote areas with less access to the appropriate tools needed to adjust and square a case mouth or just cannot find the time to do so will simply expand a .375 case and load up.Now with the case and chamber set for 2.80 in. with a heavy load and stout bullet in high temperatures this case if not trimmed correctly will be at approximately 2.83 in. possibly causing a drastic increase in pressure and locking up the action after the first shot.I would not like to hear of a worst case scenario if this occurred.

From what I have been able to see a .375 expanded to .423 averages its length from 2.85 to 2.83 when expanded.A trim to even it out if desired although not necessary will give about 2.82 in. If case are made professionally for us we could stipulate 2.85 in. case length and the matter of 2-3 hundredth's of an in. for an expanded .375 case in a 2.85 in. chamber will not matter.

This would not only lengthen the neck area slightly but give us a little more of a safety factor. What do you think? Oscar

Hello Gentlemen,

Just a heads up, I am going to contact Pacific Tool & Gauge this upcoming week to explain what is desired for the .404-.375 and request a official print be made.

As soon as I receive the drawing I will post it on the board so that all may consider it and see if any changes should be made.I will also be requesting that it be a 2.85" version. Oscar.

Sounds good Oscar!

You can go shorter in longer but not in reverse.

quote:

Originally posted by oscar:
Hello Gentlemen,

Just a heads up, I am going to contact Pacific Tool & Gauge this upcoming week to explain what is desired for the .404-.375 and request a official print be made.

As soon as I receive the drawing I will post it on the board so that all may consider it and see if any changes should be made.I will also be requesting that it be a 2.85" version. Oscar.

valid points, thumbs up from here!

Sounds like you had a back operation. What Happened?

Thank you Oscar! At least I think so. I have a commercial FN Mauser action that is a 375 IMP at the moment. This could be fun, if we could get enough support to get brass made.
Now, to get my lovely wife to increase my allowance...

Rich

Rich...All that is needed is to get basic brass stamped or stamp 404- on 375 brass.

Would you set back and rebore your 375 imp?

Hello,

I sent a preliminary E-Mail with general specifics about what we would want Sunday evening. I requested a approximate price for a reamer and prints to be made up prior to the reamer being formed so that we may look it over first.

When I receive his reply, I will send him more detailed instructions of what we desire so that the print can be made.I will update as soon as anything happens.

Oscar.

OK tire kickers; here's the deal.
1. We should have reamer prints to drool over this week.
2. I spoke with Dave at CH4D today. He thinks the cartridge is a winner. Six people commit to buy dies and he will make them.
3. We split the cost of a two reamer set, and this whole thing can happen before I have to leave April 8th for SA.

You can buy a new CZ six-shot 375H&H for less than a grand if you shop around a little. If everybody can get lined out, we send all of them to be bored and rerifled at the same time.
The chambering can be done at the same time. The rough (slightly undersize) reamer can be used to make the FL sizer die.

Time to get past talking and start doing.

Rich