With regards to a situation like this, all parties should come out and lay the facts down as they are, and from there reach an amicable solution

Being involved in the hunting scene, from aircharters, meet and greet services, to firearm import permits, and anything else associated with hunting we ourselves have had a hick up or two. In one instance an american client had booked a hunt in Zim and had contacted us to fly him into the concession. three days after being dropped off in the area I got a call late on saturday night asking us to come fetch him immediately, now unfortunately it takes 24 / 48 working hours to get clearances to go into zim and apon explaining this to my client he said not to worry, that he did not want to wait that long to get out and simply drove out on the back of the PH's landcruiser. In the end we refunded the client for his return leg of the trip. One could of said we were entitled to take a percentage for cancellations,etc seeing that we had already paid($1200) for the full flights clearances, passenger taxes, etc. but in the end we bit the bullet and paid 50% back to the client

No two instances / problems are the same and one should tread lightly into problem areas.

There are three truths to any story, yours - mine - and the truth.

I have nothing to add about this situation, just that I think that both parts involved are serious people that somehow the situation went out of their hands at some point.

So I will only give my opinion about the "business lesson" we see here:

A big safari company like this how much money spends in marketing every year ???

There was a $ 1,100 diference in the stolen equipment and a feeling that the ph doesn't was good enough.

A written apology, a check for the total of the stolen equipment, and a discount in a new buff hunt for the hunter who was not able to make a single shot, would have avoid this company all this internet bad mouthing and would have been a very good publicity for them.

Not because the client need that money, just to give him a good message that they were concerned about his bad experience with them.

A safari camp it's the "company house" for the client. If we invite someone to sleep at our house, or worst, if someone that is paying to stay at our house, is stolen, it's our responsability to buy the same items and give them back to our guest as a gift.

No company succeedd like this one if it is not really good in their business. This company is big because it's a good company, period, like it or not. So I think that it was just a bad decision taken in a bad day to allow an unhappy client to walk away for so little money.

Sometimes is better to hold money to fix problems like this one instead of spending it in magazines or shows promoting our business.

Sometimes the best marketing policies are small actions in the correct moment that cost very little money.

L

I'm waiting for Chester, the Harrisburg, PA attorney, to show up in this thread like the Sheephunter thread.

quote:

Originally posted by Russ Gould:

He states that there are plenty of buff in this area. As good as or better than K1 and K2 which adjoin. Last season, he took 40 with his clients, out of a quota of 45. However, this area used to be a citizen hunting area.

Wow, that is a scary statistic in itself! I have heard the quota of MN has been as high as 90 buff in a season. The lady that owns the concession leases time out and based on the requirements of the lesees, she obtains the desired quota from the game dpt.

I´m suprised one finds any shootable buff at all at this rate.

quote:

Originally posted by 458Lottfan:
My only experience with Mark and Adam is when I booked my first Africa hunt with them two years ago, for Nov 2008...When I informed Mark of my wish to change plans, he became pushy and rude. He tried to keep pushing hunts on me that cost the same or more than the Tanzania hunt. I only had the hunt booked for a few months and when I pulled out completely they insisted in keeping $1700.00 of my deposit for office and paperwork fees. I found it hard to believe they had that much into it; my hunt was still two years out.

What about this experience?

YUKON DELTA:
I dont think that is strange that they keep the deposit, or else every bozo on the planet that would like hunt africa would book a couple of years ahead to be sure to have a safari booked - and if they find a low priced offer under the time they would just cancel and book that instead ! I think that many of you guys that posted here dont have a company of your own, at least try to understand

FROM SAFARITRACKERS HOMEPAGE.
Reservations and Payments:
1. When you book a safari more than one year (365 days) in advance of its start date, a deposit of twenty five percent (25%) of the total safari cost is required. An additional twenty five percent (25%) of the total safari cost is due and payable on or before 12 months (365 days) prior to the start of your safari. The balance of your safari cost is due no later than ninety (90) days before the start of your safari. If the balance has not been received by that date, the Company shall be entitled to treat your reservation as cancelled.

2. When you book a safari one year (365 days) or less prior to the start of the safari but more than ninety (90) days prior to its start, a deposit of fifty percent (50%) of the safari cost is required. The balance of your safari cost is due no later than ninety (90) days before the start of your safari. If the balance has not been received by that date, the Company shall be entitled to treat your reservation as cancelled.

3. When you book a safari 90 days or less prior to the start of the safari full payment of the safari cost is required.

4. There shall be no binding contract until a deposit is paid and the company acknowledges receipt in writing of the deposit. It shall then be deemed accepted and a confirmed reservation.



Cancellations and refunds:
Any cancellation of a reservation must be in writing and shall only be effective after its acknowledged receipt by the company. Cancellation fees shall apply accordingly.


When a cancellation is effective one year (365 days) or more days prior to the start of the safari, the company will make a refund of your paid deposit less a cancellation fee of $3,500.
When a cancellation is effective 9 months (270 days) or more days prior to the start of the safari but less than one year (365 days), fifty percent (50%) of the deposit due and payable plus a $3,500 per hunting client and a $500 per non-hunting client will be charged as a cancellation fee. Your refund will be any deposit monies in excess of these cancellation fees.


When a cancellation is effective less than 9 months (270 days) prior to the start of the safari, the total cost of your safari will be charged as a cancellation fee and no refunds will be made.
4. If you (the client) are a “no show†Adam Clements Safari Trackers, Inc. will treat your reservation as cancelled and all payments made by you will be forfeited.

5. In the event of a cancellation you are responsible for the full cancellation fee regardless of the amount of deposits you have made to your account.

This has been a most interesting conversation.

Just some opinions from my perspective.

I have a piddly little javelina hunting guide service, and I charge a Non Refundable $100.00 deposit to lock in hunt dates, it is part of the total hunt price.

As csxcs stated, if there was not some penalty to be paid, people would send deposits, and then if they found a cheaper hunt, they would want their money back, all their money.

While the figures that csxcs posted from the Safari Company seem really exorbitant, all outfitters/guides/safari companies have expenses, and when a client cancels those expenses have to be absorbed and the operator may not be able to find another hunter for those dates.

I do think it would be or would have been a good idea to have heard from both sides of the issue, in real time discussions about this particular hunt, not affadavits from former clients.

Something or many things went wrong on this hunt, much or all of it probably due to a complete breakdown in communications between the company and the clients, that took place BEFORE the hunt began.

One group was saying one thing and the other group was putting their own interpretation to what was being said. JMO.

The safari prices Safaritrackers take for a safari isnt 1000 USD it could be + 100 000 USD then the deposit cant be 100 USD IMO.

quote:

Originally posted by onefunzr2:
I'm waiting for Chester, the Harrisburg, PA attorney, to show up in this thread like the Sheephunter thread.

You sir, owe me a new keyboard. I spewed Diet Coke in mine.

I'm well aware of the deposit process required and what is normal and acceptable. This was neither. Someone kept their commission for a hunt that was cancelled 2 years out.

To be honest the retaining of the $1700.00 was not a huge issue for me. It did seem like a lot for no longer than I had the money down. I could not imagine any investment had been made on my hunt other than the contract and some conversation. I did not try to pull out because I found a better deal. I tried to work with Mark to find a less costly hunt that I could take my wife and kids with me on. I was directed to a couple of South African outfitters but the base price stayed high. I was told that I had to spend this much money to be guaranteed a good hunt. I did find Mark and Adams Company on this forum and they have a very impressive website.

It was Marks pushiness that turned me off. I understand that this is how he makes his living so that is why he pushed to keep the hunt price up. I am sure he gets commission on a % of the hunt. But my gut instinct told me to back out. I have learned long ago to always follow my instinct. It has saved my life twice for sure. The only time I spoke with Adam was when they agreed to send most of the money I had put down back and keep the $1700.00. He was polite.

I will be perfectly honest... this was my first venture in planning a hunt in Africa and I had never spent this much money on any kind of trip much less a hunt. I was getting cold feet and questioning my choices. I am an average guy with a good job and a young family. I am no where close to being rich. Now that I have been through the process once I know it will be much easier for my second trip.

I ended up booking thru Abed a friend of my brother that lives in Anchorage. I put up $2000.00 for the deposit. I was not expected to pay one red cent again until I finished the hunt. The people and trip were amazing and like Abed stated to me you don't have to pay huge amounts of money upfront or in total to have a great hunt. In reality, I think Mark and Adam are used to dealing with seasoned African hunters or individuals with much larger expendable cash resources. That being said, I still would not try to book thru them again. My biggest issue was Marks reaction when I wanted to change the hunt and then finally cancel; it was less than professional in my opinion. Much like the response he gave on this thread. That is why I chose to share my experience.

I really was not going to respond to this interesting post, as it really does not matter what I say or what my side of the story is. It is a no win situation! Almost everyone that has commented on this post has never booked a hunt with us and never will regardless, so they will never really know how we conduct business and are simply just being judge and jury behind their computer screens. There is some serious bashing going on here and some very nasty talk that I think is uncalled for by anyone who considers themselves decent. Some here talk about killing a PH and leaving him to the Lions? Some are stating comments about me that are not the facts and this simply is childish behavior. If you do not know the facts guys do not make accusations and do not start your own rumors just because you do not like me. It does not bother me that many of you do not like me or will never use my company for hunting. Bashing me or stating false comments does not make you any better of a person. You may not like me and that is fine however most of you do not even know me, so keep your personal issues to yourself and do not involve me in your rumors.

As mentioned early on in this saga of a post, there are always two sides to a story or in this case a complaint. I am in no way going to get involved in a pissing match with Bobby or anyone else on this forum, as I do not think it is the professional way of handling disagreements. Bobby obviously does not feel like he was treated fairly, however we did look into every matter of his safari and every complaint was addressed upon his return. It is just one of those facts in life when doing business with people, that we will never be able to please everyone.

Just a few comments/facts: Keep in mind that I was not on this safari and it is a matter of taking what I heard from the PH, the staff and Bobby and trying to decide what is fiction and what is fact.

We fired employees that he accused of misconduct just on his word, and we launched a full police investigation on his claim of stolen property, again only on his word. We did not drop the ball and did handle his complaints seriously. Bobby originally informed me on the phone that he had lost $2,000 worth of equipment, which is what he was refunded. Are bino’s that were reported stolen still seen around Bobby’s neck in his pictures?

This is why we wanted to have a full police investigation, which does take time in Tanzania. Regardless of this, we refunded Bobby his original quote. He also then decided that the amount “stolen†was more and faxed me a laundry list of what he thought was taken from his tent. When asked for receipts to go along with his list, he ignored the request. My question would be if someone goes into a tent and takes everything from bino’s, gun sling to batteries, why would they not just take the guns and the shaving kit as well? We have never had any problems with theft in our camps before, and do not know why we would all of sudden have one. We have always had security guards in camp to watch client’s tents as a precaution and safety, which should show that it would be very difficult for anyone to steal anything, let alone strangers. Bobby admitted that there was a guard behind his tent, yet this guard never saw anything. Staff were checked and we investigated the claim all the way to the villages. We did take responsibility and handled the claims accordingly. Theft is a possibility anywhere in this world and we highly recommend insurance.

Paul is not a lazy PH. I have seen him hunt and have had many compliments from clients on his ability to hunt. Even Bobby admits that they worked hard and walked so much they got blisters on their feet. How is this lazy? He admitted they saw and were in Buffalo daily. A good PH will not let a client just shoot a Buffalo just to make things easy or to avoid a client complaint. They work hard and hope that opportunities arise. We also cannot be responsible for the client’s ability.

Mark Young is part of my team with Adam Clements Safari Trackers Inc. and we are happy to have him with us. Mark has always been upfront and honest with me and we appreciate his honesty and loyalty.

There are other facts and issues that I will not express as I do not think it is proper to argue with anyone in public let alone the internet.

With regards to game in this area, we at no time “over sold†this area. How can you over sell a $6,500 hunt? Regardless of what some say about the game in the area, we did take Sable, Wildebeest, Impala, Leopard & Lion in this area and have pictures to prove it. Bobby himself admitted that they saw and were on Buffalo daily, but again this does not really matter and is beside the point for those who want to argue regardless. The area was sold cheap and everyone going there knew it was not a prime area.

There have also been comments on how we handle clients. Of course most of you have not booked with us and would not have a clue how we handle clients before, during or after a safari. The girls in my office do keep in very close contact with each client before their safari as well as their return and most clients compliment our professionalism. I would even say that we would be hard to beat when it comes to handling clients from A-Z. Of course as with this post, we will never be able to please every client and that is just a fact of life.

Just a comment with regards to some comments that Jeff H has stuck his neck out and stated against me. Jeff Haulbrook first opens his mouth about me firing Charley Horsley because he shot a Lion? This is a perfect example of someone who decides they do not like you, so they decide to make up false stories just for the hell of it, and shame on you Jeff for talking trash without any facts. Not that it is any of your business why he was fired as that is our personal business, but just so you know what the facts are, so you can correct your false bad mouthing of me, he was fired for allowing a client like you to shoot IMMATURE animals! He had been warned earlier and after your safari when I saw that you had shot a VERY immature Lesser Kudu, this was not the quality that we wanted any of our clients taking. Now, if I am wrong in trying to have high standards then so be it. You also badmouthed me about your hunt in Zimbabwe? We booked this hunt for you with Wayne Clark who owned the ranch you hunted on. We had no say or control over the PH or what happened on your hunt while you were there! Wayne was responsible for this hunt and if you did not like it then you should have addressed your issues with him directly. You apparently liked Wayne so much though that you sent him on vacation to Hawaii!!! Hmm, that’s how big your issue was, so big you sent him to Hawaii, very interesting!!!! Grow up and get your facts straight before you try to bash me.

I have already said more than I really wanted to as I refuse to get into an Internet pissing match, and this is all that I will mention or post on this post. Bobby stated what he wanted with his experience and so be it. We did deal with the complaints and accusations as fairly as possible, and I apologize if Bobby does not think we did enough. I did offer Bobby a chance at going back for a discounted price if he wanted to along with what we have already done FYI.

For those of you who do know me personally and who have dealt with my office know the real story on how reputable we are and how we handle our clients, not to mention the quality of hunts we do give our clients. Proof is in our brochures and on the website with our happy clients and quality trophies.

Glad you responded Adam.

I have not hunted with you, yet...but, I would not hesitate to. From what several of my SCI friends have shared with me is that you are a top notch operation. I can not speak to any personal experience, other than the few times I have met you, but if Mike Streetman and Zayne vouch for you....it is good enough for me.

Have any of these people seen the buffalo you are taking out of Tanzania?

A bad situation can happen to anyone. Have you not heard the expression, "That's Africa"?

Can we move on folks? Let us discuss real serious problems. If Obama and Biden get elected...that will be a real problem! Say good bye to your guns and everything sacred to the hunter/shooter!

IMHO!

TJB

In my post I said the company should:

1)Offer the hunter a discounted hunt..they have done it.

2)Offer him an apologize.. they have done it also.

3)Refund him the stolen items, they have refund what he ask them the first time.

Fair enough FOR ME.

And about Mark being pushy, let me tell one thing. Some months ago I was playing with the idea of booking a hunt with him but because one reason or another I never make up my mind what was the best thing for me. I offered Mark to send him money and that later in the future I can decide. I ask him his account number and he turned down my offer, he just told me to keep my money with me till I have decided what type of hunt I want.

I don't know exactly what the word pushy means but I know perfectly what the word honesty means..

For me this topic is closed

L

Adam,
Thank you for your response.

quote:

Originally posted by safari12:
Just a few comments/facts: Keep in mind that I was not on this safari and it is a matter of taking what I heard from the PH, the staff and Bobby and trying to decide what is fiction and what is fact.

We fired employees that he accused of misconduct just on his word, and we launched a full police investigation on his claim of stolen property, again only on his word. We did not drop the ball and did handle his complaints seriously. Bobby originally informed me on the phone that he had lost $2,000 worth of equipment, which is what he was refunded. The bino’s that were reported stolen are still seen around Bobby’s neck in his pictures?

This is why we wanted to have a full police investigation, which does take time in Tanzania. Regardless of this, we refunded Bobby his original quote. He also then decided that the amount “stolen†was more and faxed me a laundry list of what he thought was taken from his tent. When asked for receipts to go along with his list, he ignored the request. My question would be if someone goes into a tent and takes everything from bino’s, gun sling to batteries, why would they not just take the guns and the shaving kit as well? We have never had any problems with theft in our camps before, and do not know why we would all of sudden have one. We have always had security guards in camp to watch client’s tents as a precaution and safety, which should show that it would be very difficult for anyone to steal anything, let alone strangers. Bobby admitted that there was a guard behind his tent, yet this guard never saw anything. Staff were checked and we investigated the claim all the way to the villages. We did take responsibility and handled the claims accordingly. Theft is a possibility anywhere in this world and we highly recommend insurance.

Paul is not a lazy PH. I have seen him hunt and have had many compliments from clients on his ability to hunt. Even Bobby admits that they worked hard and walked so much they got blisters on their feet. How is this lazy? He admitted they saw and were in Buffalo daily. A good PH will not let a client just shoot a Buffalo just to make things easy or to avoid a client complaint. They work hard and hope that opportunities arise. We also cannot be responsible for the client’s ability.

With regards to game in this area, we at no time “over sold†this area. How can you over sell a $6,500 hunt? Regardless of what some say about the game in the area, we did take Sable, Wildebeest, Impala, Leopard & Lion in this area and have pictures to prove it. Bobby himself admitted that they saw and were on Buffalo daily, but again this does not really matter and is beside the point for those who want to argue regardless. The area was sold cheap and everyone going there knew it was not a prime area.

Adam- First of all I never quoted you $2000 over the phone for the items which were stolen. I faxed you the list of items and the values of each as YOU requested.

All of the "laundry list" were in ONE BAG which I took to the truck with me each of the two days before this occured. The theives took one bag! They did not rummage around the tent looking for items or being selective over what they took. I had everything organized in one bag so that I would not have to gather my items every morning. I had my Redd Oxx bag filled with Sony Digital camcorder in Tamrac camera bag with extra batteries, all of my extra camera memory cards with batteries for my still camera, Leica 1200 Scan rangefinder, Leitz 10x25 BCA binoculars, fanny pack, one half of all my ammo for my 375 and 416, shell holders, sling, knife, etc. I had my cameras, binos, etc. all listed on my Form 4457 which the Game Scout looked at and took down serial numbers, etc. You never asked to see my 4457 Forms NOR did you ever request receipts from me. What you told me two months later was that several of my items were recovered and you were waiting to see how many of the items showed up! That wasn't true because none of the items "found" were returned to me.

More than likely the Guard was one of the perpetrators.

You mention here that I had my binoculars "still around my neck". Those were my green armour Zeiss 8x30B binoculars which are in the photos! You are insinuating that I was lying about the items stolen. My compact binos were the stolen ones!

I also listed the money Matthew scammed me out of over the ammo when we arrived at the airport and the bribe he gave the SAA ticket counter Which he told me he gave more money to the agent than he did. By that point I just wanted out of there.

You also make it sound like I was the reason you wanted a "full police investigation". You had nothing to do with it. The game scout left camp with all of the info to bring to his headquarters. He thought it was a serious matter and he never questioned me like I was pulling something as you are now.

Also I did NOT get blisters on my feet. Richard did. Sure we saw buffalo every day but Paul was not competent enough to get us to where we could get shots. We could not even get close enough to tell if there were any shootable bulls. Since he approached the herds from the wrong way we constantly spooked the herds. That is why we had to walk so much. Hey I'm not complaining about the walking. I darn sure wasn't staying with Paul to wait for the vehicle when I was given the OPTION of walking to camp with Anton. Paul has some nerve to say the clients couldn't hack it after he chose to wait for the vehicle to pick him up! The only reason I got a buffalo was because the herd was laying out in an open meadow. I shot mine at 150 yards like an antelope. Neither Richard or myself cared how big the buffalo were so long as they were mature bulls. We had no expectations of size at all. I didn't like that Paul did not gut my buffalo so it spoiled. The Game Scout didn't like that either when he tried to take off a hind quarter.

I now have an understanding of what you think. "How could you oversell a $6,500 hunt" and "The area was sold cheap and everyone going there knew it was not a prime area." What we were told by Mark is that you needed to sell a minimum of 40% of your buffalo quota to keep the area so you were offering a discounted price to fill the permits. The normal price was like $11,000(1X1) but the discount price was (1x1) $7,900 and (2x1) was $6,500. https://forums.accuratereloading.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/...=370109475#370109475
Sure we were told the buffalo were not going to be huge and that was not a factor since it was our first buffalo hunt. What we didn't like was that there were NO IMPALA and NO WILDEBEEST(6 cows, no bulls) after you told us there were lots of each. We did see a good number Kongoni. We saw some elephants, a group of Sable, 2 zebra and a few warthogs. Just because this was a $6,500 hunt and not a $70,000 hunt does not mean we should be told things which weren't true then be happy about it just because it was "cheap".

Your arrogant attitude in your post here is just the same as you handled our problems. Like it's no big deal and somehow it is our fault.

I didn't get on here warning everyone that they would have a bad hunt if they booked with you. All I told was of MY experience and how you chose to handle bad situations which arose. If you had paid me in full for my stolen items I would have just chalked it up to another experience. I didn't post anything for a year and I didn't start posting after you sent me the $2000 check six months ago. I haven't submitted a hunt report to SCI or the the Hunt Reports. You conduct your business how you want to. I've said my part. I personally don't feel like you handled the situation well at all.

hmmm....

quote:

Every thing I saw of Paul he was honest back in 05. I never hunted with him. I think the world of his brother Charley.

Didn't know Charley had a brother. As you say, I'd hunt with Charley any time. I found him to be an expert at his craft, and an all-around good guy.

The lessons here are

1. Check references from hunters that have been to the area recently (last season or this season). Don't take the agent's word (and yes I am an agent and I tell my clients the same thing). Conditions change from year to year, and agents have not necessarily hunted every area personally (something I try to do but not always possible/affordable, or sometimes, as in the case of MN, something that's in the plan but hasn't happened yet.) We add new outfitters and new areas each year. The PH's word is more informed, but again, you should check references.

2. Take out travel insurance. On my last trip to Zim, a Sony HD cam that I bought for Russell Caldecott was stolen from my checked baggage. When I received the bag in Vic Falls (a day late) the TSA lock was still locked and there was a TSA inspection slip in the bag. Therefore, I am assuming that TSA either mislaid it, or one of their employees stole it. I got paid out, partially, by AIG. BTW, SAA won't pay for electronics, jewelry, or cash that is stolen from baggage. When in camp, it's a good idea to have a lockable guncase and to put your valuables in it. Remember, you are dealing with people to whom a camera or even a pair of nice boots is a year's pay. You wouldn't leave stuff lying around in a hotel room even in the USA, let alone Africa. Same in camp, esp on "public" land eg in communal areas or concessions.

3. Understand that hunting is hunting, there is no guarantee and there are a lot of things that can go wrong, esp. in Africa. When hunting buffalo, from my experience, you have to do a lot of tracking to get a good shot. You will make many approaches before the stars align. Too often, the buff wind you, or hear you, or see you, and leave in haste; or there is no good bull; or there is a good bull and no clear shot; or lions spook the buff and they keep going etc. This is especially true late in the season when the buff have been chased and shot for months. That is why a buff hunt is normally 10 days. This is the MINIMUM if you expect to shoot some PG as well. If it were as simple as following the first track you find, and shooting the buff, it wouldn't be necessary to book 10 days, and it wouldn't be hunting either. Note, the reason the industry charges a trophy fee (unlike Alaska where you pay whether you shoot or not), is that sometimes you don't get the trophy. The question you should ask, in deciding whether you were taken or not, is whether you are seeing mature animals, not whether you got one on the ground. It takes hard work, some luck, and considerable skill to take quality trophies, even in Africa. Ask the guys who hunt Leopard or even Kudu.

4. If there are problems in the field, table them immediately. Sometimes, the hunter says nothing, perhaps hoping that things will turn around, or perhaps in hindsight the hunt wasn't as much fun as it seemed at the time, esp. when he books a hunt he can't really afford, and then complains weeks or months after the hunt is over. This is like eating your meal at the restaurant and then telling the chef the next day, the meat was tough and overcooked and the vegetables were tasteless, so can I please have my money back? If it's crap, send it back to the kitchen. If the PH is lazy, request another one. If the area is devoid of animals, request another area if not now, then next year and go back to town.

5. Understand that hunting in true concessions is not the same as hunting in South African "Concessions". The animals move around vast areas according to the rains, there are no water troughs and there is no supplemental feeding and there are predators. An area that was great last year may not be as good this year. An area that hunts well early in the season may be devoid of game late in the season.

Regarding quota, I don't know what's reasonable for this area but I can tell you, the quota in Dande N, said to be the best area in all of Zim, is over 60 buff per season. The poster above who expressed horror because the quota was 45 buff is a little out on a limb, unless he is a bioligist in Tanzania.

I can't comment too much on this particular case as I don't know what actually happened. It sounds like Bobby did OK in the end. He didn't have a great hunt and he got robbed. That makes anyone mad as a snake. But he got paid, Adam says in full, he says partially, for items that were stolen. I don't know of any safari company that indemnifies clients against bad things happening, including theft. Worse things have happened to clients. He got a buffalo and a hartebeest. He didn't get two buff or an impala or a wildebeest, but hey, he didn't pay for them either. If anyone has any beef, it's his buddy Richard and I don't see any posts from that gent in this thread. I would have liked to hear his take on the hunt. It sounds like they were hunting 2x1 so if they were in buff every day, then Richard presumably was as well.

My final thought: as I have said before, if there is a dispute and it is settled, then both parties keep their mouths shut. It's not ethical to take a settlement payment, and then to bad-mouth the other party after the fact. And as some have pointed out, the PH/Outfitter is not really at liberty to tell the whole story because they have to maintain a code of silence when it comes to client behaviour/ability/skill/attitude on a hunt. If they break this code, few will book with them ever again, as we all have our failings. So this whole trial by internet thing is not a fair trial at all.

quote:

Originally posted by Russ Gould:
4. If there are problems in the field, table them immediately. Sometimes, the hunter says nothing, perhaps hoping that things will turn around, or perhaps in hindsight the hunt wasn't as much fun as it seemed at the time, esp. when he books a hunt he can't really afford, and then complains weeks or months after the hunt is over. If the PH is lazy, request another one. If the area is devoid of animals, request another area if not now, then next year and go back to town.[QUOTE]


This scenario is not realistic. Leave camp with NO approval from the outfitter expecting to go on a hunt at a later date? In reality the hunter would just be SOL.


[QUOTE]I can't comment too much on this particular case as I don't know what actually happened. It sounds like Bobby did OK in the end. He didn't have a great hunt and he got robbed. That makes anyone mad as a snake. But he got paid, Adam says in full, he says partially, for items that were stolen. I don't know of any safari company that indemnifies clients against bad things happening, including theft. Worse things have happened to clients. He got a buffalo and a hartebeest. He didn't get two buff or an impala or a wildebeest, but hey, he didn't pay for them either. If anyone has any beef, it's his buddy Richard and I don't see any posts from that gent in this thread. I would have liked to hear his take on the hunt. It sounds like they were hunting 2x1 so if they were in buff every day, then Richard presumably was as well.[QUOTE]


There was NO negotioations about the amount which paid to me. Adam just said $2000 is what we are willing to do.
Richard will be posting his experience on here soon.


[QUOTE]My final thought: as I have said before, if there is a dispute and it is settled, then both parties keep their mouths shut. It's not ethical to take a settlement payment, and then to bad-mouth the other party after the fact. And as some have pointed out, the PH/Outfitter is not really at liberty to tell the whole story because they have to maintain a code of silence when it comes to client behaviour/ability/skill/attitude on a hunt. If they break this code, few will book with them ever again, as we all have our failings. So this whole trial by internet thing is not a fair trial at all.[QUOTE]

I don't agree with this last statement at all.

Again...I personally do not care who chooses to book hunts with Adam or Mark. Or who wants PH Paul to guide them. All I have reported here is MY experience and how things were handled in this situation. I did get a couple animals on the hunt. I did have things stolen which I was not fully compensated for. If something like this happens again in their camp perhaps they will remember this situation and step up to make things right which they did not do in this case.

quote:

We fired employees that he accused of misconduct just on his word, and we launched a full police investigation on his claim of stolen property, again only on his word. We did not drop the ball and did handle his complaints seriously. Bobby originally informed me on the phone that he had lost $2,000 worth of equipment, which is what he was refunded. Are bino’s that were reported stolen still seen around Bobby’s neck in his pictures?

Adam:

Truth with verification. Post the "full police investigation." The documentation from the police will confirm the truth.


Question: Has Saeed ever terminated anyone access to AR website for being dishonest or unethical?

I see now it was a seven day hunt, 2x1. In other words, the lone PH was expected to deliver 3 buffalo and 3 species of plains game on top of that in 7 days. Probably 6 days if they count days in Tanz like they do in other places. This is just not realistic, unless you are in a zoo, not a concession.

If Mark stated that this was guaranteed or even likely doable, then I think there was some overselling involved. A lot of PHs I know won't commit to a buff plus PG one on one unless you book 10 days. On a 7 day hunt, the normal expectation is one buff 1x1.

I am not defending Mark or Adam or the PH, never met or had dealings with any of them or duxdog for that matter, just providing a bystander's perspective. I think the realistic sell on this hunt should have been one buff each, anything else (second buff or PG) is a bonus.

For the record, for those who haven't read the whole post, we are offering a hunt in this area this season, with Con van Wyk (different operator/different PH) 10 days for buff/PG. So hear this, people, esp those of you whose experience in Africa is limited to ranch hunting! Don't book 2x1 if you expect two 40" buff each plus the entire list of PG. Probably not going to happen. On a 2x1, expect a 38" buff each and hope/pray for anything beyond that. Or book 1x1 to improve your odds.

This is free advice, applicable to any hunt, and if you disagree with it go ahead and ignore it, it won't hurt my feelings.

I was reading through some older threads looking for more Namibia information and ran across this one....

link

"Hunters who were not able to connect last year were disattisfied. So assuming responsibility we have offered these hunters in addition to the discounts of last year to return at a minimal cost and atleast one of them will return this year and hopefully submit a report here."


I found Mr. Fultons approach to addressing some questions about hunt success and trophy delivery to be more along the lines that I would expect a reputable outfitter to offer.

Just a comment with regards to some comments that Jeff H has stuck his neck out and stated against me. Jeff Haulbrook first opens his mouth about me firing Charley Horsley because he shot a Lion? This is a perfect example of someone who decides they do not like you, so they decide to make up false stories just for the hell of it, and shame on you Jeff for talking trash without any facts. Not that it is any of your business why he was fired as that is our personal business, but just so you know what the facts are, so you can correct your false bad mouthing of me, he was fired for allowing a client like you to shoot IMMATURE animals! He had been warned earlier and after your safari when I saw that you had shot a VERY immature Lesser Kudu, this was not the quality that we wanted any of our clients taking. Now, if I am wrong in trying to have high standards then so be it. You also badmouthed me about your hunt in Zimbabwe? We booked this hunt for you with Wayne Clark who owned the ranch you hunted on. We had no say or control over the PH or what happened on your hunt while you were there! Wayne was responsible for this hunt and if you did not like it then you should have addressed your issues with him directly. You apparently liked Wayne so much though that you sent him on vacation to Hawaii!!! Hmm, that’s how big your issue was, so big you sent him to Hawaii, very interesting!!!! Grow up and get your facts straight before you try to bash me.


Adam not to highjack this tread with my problems with the 2 hunts I booked with you. Some facts
Charlie Horsley is a fine person, a honorable person and one of the best PH's I have had the pleasure to hunt with. He did tell me to shoot a small lessor. It was a mistake many Ph's have made. I do know that the hunt I bought through Wendell before you took over booking for this area. I know if I had not shot a lion you would have had another one to sell. I know you told Charlie not to take the truck off the roads. I know you made Charlie and myself drive almost 2 hours back to camp for lunch so you could inspect the truck to make sure we had not been off the roads. It wasted almost a day of MY HUNTING TIME!
As far a Wayne, It was my very first leopard hunt, I believed you when you said Oct. in Zim was a good time and no problem you will shoot a leopard and your ph is Yada, yada, yada.
Worst possible time of the year to hunt in Zim, Did not get the first Ph or the second but a PH that worked in a tire store in town.
Trip number two your words to me rebook and if you don't get a leopard you don't pay. Problem you never told Wayne. Yes you made no commission but Wayne would have lost much more. We had no luck but he worked hard. I let him use my condo in Hawaii for a tip. I give you one thing you can sell sand to the Saudis.
Both Charlie and Wayne are very honorable people and will back up my version of this story. Who will back you up??
Again My apologies to those on this tread for this post. This is my last post on this tread cause I AM HEADING TO BOTSWANA THURSDAY!!!

quote:

Originally posted by daleW:
[QUOTE]We fired employees that he accused of misconduct just on his word, and we launched a full police investigation on his claim of stolen property, again only on his word. We did not drop the ball and did handle his complaints seriously. Bobby originally informed me on the phone that he had lost $2,000 worth of equipment, which is what he was refunded. Are bino’s that were reported stolen still seen around Bobby’s neck in his pictures?

Adam:

Truth with verification. Post the "full police investigation." The documentation from the police will confirm the truth.


Question: Has Saeed ever terminated anyone access to AR website for being dishonest or unethical?[/QUOTE]

Yes, on a number of past occasions.

But, those individuals went out of their way to repeatedly tell out right lies, and continued doing so despite me asking them not too.

I don't see anything dishonest or unethical in this thread.

We have a disagreement between two individuals, who as far as I am concerned are stating their position from the circumstances as they see them.

And from what I have seen so far I have no way of doubting either gentleman's word.

Bobby and his friend had a hunt they were not quite happy with, due to several facts Bobby has posted.

I am not aware of any past hunts that Bobby has been on that have turned sour.

I am saying this because we had quite a heated discussion of a past member who had a problem on his hunt, and it was revealed that he had a habit of making his hunts a misery for himself and others.

Adam and Mark have had a lot more positive reports from other hunters who have hunted with them, with full recommendations.

So I don't think any of us are in a position to draw a final conclusion on who might be at fault. I certainly cannot.

Saeed,

I don't think this is one of those situations where someone bought a silk purse and expected it to be made of silk. Bobby bought a cheap hunt and expected it to be more than a cheap hunt.

Cheap hunts are usually just that cheap!

A lot of folks on this website lie, but you are pretty fair with everyone as always.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
So I don't think any of us are in a position to draw a final conclusion on who might be at fault. I certainly cannot.

Saeed, with all respect, you are a party pooper.

quote:

Originally posted by Scott King:

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
So I don't think any of us are in a position to draw a final conclusion on who might be at fault. I certainly cannot.

Saeed, with all respect, you are a party pooper.

Walter agrees with you, and adds that I am a "benevelant dictator" too!

I humbly defer.

quote:

Originally posted by Duckear:

quote:

Originally posted by onefunzr2:
I'm waiting for Chester, the Harrisburg, PA attorney, to show up in this thread like the Sheephunter thread.

You sir, owe me a new keyboard. I spewed Diet Coke in mine.

Consider yourself lucky. Duckear cost me a mouthful of 25 year old single malt, the rat bastard!

KG

KG, that is WAY to funny!

Mad Dog

Wasting good single malt is never funny!

That includes putting ice in it!

What a mess.
A good outfit and a good guy get cross-ways.
A couple of thoughts -
1. You get what you pay for - and that applies to discounted hunts. That was clear from Mr. Clements response.

2. $1100 is a small price to pay to avoid this sort of fiasco.

3. Do your homework on agents and areas. I have yet to see one that did not have a problem at some point. Most work it out to avoid this type of public trial. Same goes for areas - do your homework and check references. I did that when this hunt came up a long time back. It did not fit what I was looking for.

Hope Mr. Clements gets this sorted.

I have been reading this post for a few days now and really am disgusted by the bashing being done over the internet. From everything I have seen and read about Mr. Clements Tanzania operations they are nothing but First rate and I have exchange private emails with some of past clients. I hope to get to Tanzania someday soon and I will be calling Adam to set the hunt up for my family.

I understand that hunts do go awry from time to time but some guys who go on these hunts as clients can be the biggest jack-off's ever. I had the " divine right " to share a boar hunting camp one night in Calif. with a former Weatherby award winner. The other clients in camp were starstruck by this piece of shit. The owner of the ranch and I just sat there next to each other elbowing each other and drinking our vodka tonics.

But to get back on point--- don't bash people on the internet. Use private email or some other form of communication to solve this one on one. Public forums arguments just make all the idiots come out of the woodwork. I know I used to do the same thing and I regret ever doing it.

Paul C

quote:

Public forums arguments just make all the idiots come out of the woodwork. Paul C

Hey! I resemble that remark!

Actually I believe that Bobby is being very kind in his description of the problems we had on this hunt. I do feel bad about not getting a buffalo, and still have a hard time explaining to my friends how I could hunt in Africa for a week and never fire a shot. By the way, Adam told me to tell them that it was because my legs gave out and I couldn't keep up! My legs didn't keep me from getting a buffalo. I went on every stalk when it was my turn to shoot and we got close to herds of buffalo many times during the week. However, the only time a shootable bull was in the herd or in the open it was Bobby's turn to shoot. All the other times the herd either didn't contain a mature bull, or there was only one or two (actually one time there appeared to be three in the herd), and since they were as wild as spooked elk, the bulls either stayed in very thick brush, or behind cows. We never had a long time to wait for them because they always ended up thundering off in a cloud of dust. It seemed to me that we just didn't manage the wind very well. It seemed obvious to me pretty early in the week that we wern't going to have much luck because there wern't many bulls, they were very spooky, I don't think we hunted them very wisely, and they were in very heavy brush.

There were other aspects of the hunt that bothered me more however. Prior to the hunt I was told by both Adam and Mark that there were so many buffalo there that we would all get two each (at that time four of us were planning to go). They said we would get them early in the week and could spend the rest of the time either shooting other game, or visiting nearby game parks. The words, "Don't even think about each of you not getting two buffalo, you will get them early", and "you can shoot all of the Impalla and other planes game you want, just keep shooting", still ring in my ears. When we got there Paul told us there were no Impalla in that area and that they see maybe one per year just passing through. And of course anything else we saw was either running flat out into the brush, or wasn't available on a seven day hunt.

The business of Bobby having his equipment stollen out of our tent was particularly disturbing because after it happened Paul said that he thought someone was around because the night before, someone had taken three bottles of liquor out of the dining room. Had my bag not been placed behind the gun rack they would have gotten cash, my passport, and medicine that I need to take daily! Just a very bad deal all the way around.

On arival we were met at the airport by a company representative who took us to our hotel. He told us that we had a "little problem with our ammo" and had to pay a $100 fine. He said that he had paid it with his own personnal money and that we needed to reinburse him. We each had the number of rounds that Adam had told us to bring, and were under the airline weight limit on ammo, so really didn't understand the problem. On checking in for my flight home I asked the airline agent if I had to much ammo (remember, I had only fired two sighting rounds)and she said, "No, you're fine".

We had also been told by one of Adam's employees what appropriate tips would be and told to give all of them to the PH and that he would distribute them to the staff in an appropriate manner. The morning we left camp, Bobby and I divided the tips into two envelops, one for Paul, and one for him to distribute to his staff. They contained cash, and travlers checks. I watched Bobby seal them. After I got home I received an e-mail from Paul claiming that there was no cash in the envelopes! I personally put it in, and watched Bobby seal them and hand them to Paul. This is just another example of the kind of experience we had.

I could go on and on about what I percive as a very much less than adequate African hunting experience. I have read about and dreamed of hunting in Africa since I was a small child and this hunt was kind of a reward to myself as I prepared to retire from my career as an engineer/physicist. There were some positive aspects of the trip as I saw and experienced things I had only dreamed of. However, these experiences, and others not mentioned, have caused me to rethink African hunting. I am not sure I would go again, and certainly not to Tanzania.

Thanks for listening,

Richard

quote:

There were some positive aspects of the trip as I saw and experienced things I had only dreamed of. However, these experiences, and others not mentioned, have caused me to rethink African hunting. I am not sure I would go again, and certainly not to Tanzania.

Welcome to the board and be sure to visit again.

I know how you feel. If my first trip to Africa had been a bad one, I probably wouldn't want to go again either.

If you decide to go again, you need to do a bit more research. A forum like this is a good place to start in finding recommended outfitters but there are other hunting forums as well you can inquire on.

If possible, talk to someone who actually hunted with an outfitter. Hopefully, they'll give you an honest evaluation of their experience. By the same token, when someone asks you about an outfitter, be sure to give them an honest evaluation; both the good and the bad (this thread has been quite useful in this regard by the way).

You can also infer a lot of information about a company by looking at their web site. It is pretty common to, among other things, indicate that tips aren't included in the cost of the hunt but if recommended tip amounts are listed for everyone from the cook to the bottle washer, stay away. With the poor experience you had, in my opinion, you should have paid no tip at all. You were ripped off from beginning to end.

It it also very useful to talk in person to an outfitter or his representatives. Things come through that you don't necessarily pick up on a phone conversation.

In the last Reno, NV SCI convention, my wife and I spoke with an outfitter about an Africa hunt. He hauled out a price list but told us that if we booked then, he could give us a great discount. We must look very young because he apparently thought we were born yesterday. The prices for animals were about twice what many others were charging but, miracle of miracles, with the "discount" the prices were about like every one else's. Then he hauled out a form he wanted me to sign. We left. A couple of months later, he called to see if I wanted to hunt Africa. When I told him I was going but with someone else, he abruptly hung up without so much as a "have a good time."

quote:

The morning we left camp, Bobby and I divided the tips into two envelops, one for Paul, and one for him to distribute to his staff.

Again, If it was so bad and the PH was a lazy jerk why the hell would you give him a tip?

quote:

But to get back on point--- don't bash people on the internet. Use private email or some other form of communication to solve this one on one. Public forums arguments just make all the idiots come out of the woodwork. I know I used to do the same thing and I regret ever doing it.

Seems to me like the poster spent the better part of a year trying to work this out in private and only posted the report when the concession showed up in the "Hunt's Offered" board.