In a dispute with an unhappy hunter how much of the blame goes to the booking agent if he misrepresented the hunt and how much goes to the Safari company.
Say they were going to refund $10,000 dollars to the client, how much should the booking agent be responsible for and how much should the Safari company be responsible for??

quote:

Originally posted by butchloc:
whats the deal where the outfitter should be responsible for stolen items? if your car gets stolen out of your driveway should the guy who made the driveway be responsible?? I've had many things stolen in and out of camps. I'd tell the PH or outfitter about it, but never expected that some black guy would admit to it. Its called employee theft. We have a big problem with it in this country. If theft really worries you - go buy insurance. I do and they pay the bill

what's the deal? IT'S THE OUTFITTERS CAMP, THE OUTFITTERS EMPLOYEES, AND THE OUTFITTER'S RESPONSIBILITY!! why should i have to buy insurance to cover his screw-ups?

I'd like to know who decides the worth of the alleged stolen items and on what basis? The list of items provided in the post does not appear to me to total $3100. JMO

I talked with Bobby at length, some months after his trip, and could tell it was still a fresh and painful memory for him. I know he was bothered by the events of the trip, and was trying to work things out. If anything, it helped me ask more questions in Reno and narrow my choices down even further.

If I stayed in your home or someone else's,on a hunting trip, and had the same stuff stolen - would you feel like it was my just tough luck? I certainly hope some of the posters here would feel some responsibility. Obviously, others wouldn't.

quote:

Originally posted by robncolorado:

quote:

Originally posted by chopper12:
Do booking agents not follow up with clients after the hunts to see how things went?
In an earlier post it mentioned being in business and asking a dissatisfied customer how can we fix the problem.I think if booking agents did follow ups and tended to problems befor they got out of hand things would be a lot easier for everyone.Still doesn't fix a screwed up hunt but a least lets the client know that the booking agent didn't just take his money and run out to find the next client.

In my experience with several booking agents, I have never had one follow up with a call or e-mail to see how the hunt went. With my business, we always make follow up calls and send out a 3 page questionaire to see how we can do better. Thats just how we run our business.

I have used a booking agent twice for safaris and both times he called and emailed to see how things went. He was very itnerested in how things went and how the PH and outfitter performed, how camp was, etc.

I also left Africa both times owing money to the outfitter that the booking agent was holding for trophy fees, etc. On that issue, one of the booking agent's staff called and emailed to get the OK and sign off to send the money the outfitter was due.

The booking agent was Keith Atcheson, btw.

Also used a booking agent for an international Marlin fishing trip. He called to see how things went and how the fishing was as well. The agency was FishingSouth, IIRC, can't recall the fellow's name though.

JPK

Mark, for me, your attempt at a "middle ground" approach does not work.

I have to call them as I see them, and your reply is a non-answer masquerading as an answer, and is unfortunately rather insinuating at that, although perhaps unintentionally.

You imply strongly by quoting MJines's post (with which I disagree), and by your lack of a direct answer, that you are declining to criticize the hunter notwithstanding that he deserves it.

In this kind of situation, you need to answer straight up on the substance of the charges or suffer the consequences, which will surely be negative.

Few are comfortable with anyone who remains silent in the face of damning accusations. That is just a fact of life, on or off the internet.

For the record, I have booked twice with Mark and have no complaints about his services.

I suggest that interested parties should get the "Hunt Report" on this event and decide for themselves based on what was submitted by the folks involved.

Perhaps the two reports could be intered here?

Just a thought!

quote:

Originally posted by JPK:

quote:

Originally posted by robncolorado:

quote:

Originally posted by chopper12:
Do booking agents not follow up with clients after the hunts to see how things went?
In an earlier post it mentioned being in business and asking a dissatisfied customer how can we fix the problem.I think if booking agents did follow ups and tended to problems befor they got out of hand things would be a lot easier for everyone.Still doesn't fix a screwed up hunt but a least lets the client know that the booking agent didn't just take his money and run out to find the next client.

In my experience with several booking agents, I have never had one follow up with a call or e-mail to see how the hunt went. With my business, we always make follow up calls and send out a 3 page questionaire to see how we can do better. Thats just how we run our business.

I have used a booking agent twice for safaris and both times he called and emailed to see how things went. He was very itnerested in how things went and how the PH and outfitter performed, how camp was, etc.

I also left Africa both times owing money to the outfitter that the booking agent was holding for trophy fees, etc. On that issue, one of the booking agent's staff called and emailed to get the OK and sign off to send the money the outfitter was due.

The booking agent was Keith Atcheson, btw.

Also used a booking agent for an international Marlin fishing trip. He called to see how things went and how the fishing was as well. The agency was FishingSouth, IIRC, can't recall the fellow's name though.

JPK

Good to know that the Atchesons do that. I should consider them in the future. I in fact have to correct my earlier post, I did in fact get 1 e-mail from an agent this year asking how the hunt went.

Perhaps I missed this but how was it concluded that it was the safari company's employees that stole the equipment?

Seems like more than one person has had a less than satisfactory hunt in that area. That adds credibility to the claim in my opinion.

I hunted with Paul's brother David last year. He knew what he was doing and did put forth the effort. However, I did not trust him. It was hysterical to me when the blacks called him "mzugu." He didn't handle it well.

quote:

Originally posted by Gatogordo:

quote:

Originally posted by 458Lottfan:
My only experience with Mark and Adam is when I booked my first Africa hunt with them two years ago, for Nov 2008. When I decided that my savings plan was not keeping pace as I had planed. I also decided that I wanted my kids to come with me. So I started to look in to a less expensive plains game hunt. When I informed Mark of my wish to change plans, he became pushy and rude. He tried to keep pushing hunts on me that cost the same or more than the Tanzania hunt. I only had the hunt booked for a few months and when I pulled out completely they insisted in keeping $1700.00 of my deposit for office and paperwork fees. I found it hard to believe they had that much into it; my hunt was still two years out. But I let it go and moved on.

That's enough for me. I think that's outrageous.

And me. I've heard plenty bad things over the years here about certain 'outfitters', and while some are to be taken with a grain of salt, I really appreciate the heads-up from fellow hunters, especially on bad outfits.

Conclusion: the last person on Earth I'd go to looking for help with a hunt would be Mr. Young.

KG

quote:

It is frankly amazing -- and sad at some level -- that so many folks posting have quite simply just assumed the absolute truth and veracity of all of the elements of the original complaint and then based all of their "heartfelt" conclusions on that "fact". Reality is that only two people on this thread know all the facts.

Mike

Mike,

Maybe if Mark had addressed the particulars head on and dealt with the hunt in question instead of quoting board members opinions and a report from another hunt, folks would respond differently.

Mark,

It is too bad you wouldn't address the issue and the details of that hunt directly. Posting another hunt report doesn't cut it.

I guess this makes my decision on future booking easier. Things happen. How you respond to and handle them is what counts, not how things worked out great on someone else's hunt.

Bob

I was raised to judge folks based on the body of their work, not single or isolated incidents that may be out of keeping with how they generally perform. To me it is very relevant that if 100 people have hunted with Adam Clements and 99 report having had good experiences, then frankly I am prepared to give them the benefit of the doubt if one person says that they did not have a positive experience. Fact is that no business pleases every client all the time no matter how hard they try.

Every one of the commentators on this thread shops at a retail establishment that they trust and have confidence in -- but to think that that retailer has never, ever, had a customer that came away with a different opinion is naive. The view expressed by others here is that if that one customer went away disappointed, justified or unjustified, the business is not worth patronizing. Even though the vast majority of the establishment's customers have a different view. You may love Ruger rifles, do you believe that every person that has ever owned a Ruger rifle has the same opinion, do you think that there are no customers out there that may feel legitimately screwed by Ruger, so why continue to buy Ruger rifles? You do because the vast majority of folks that buy them report no problems and enjoy the rifles.

Let me see if I can state the issue in the form of a question. You are getting ready to book your next hunt. You are talking to two outfitters. Costs, etc. are essentially a push. One outfitter has one hunt report and it was positive. The other outfitter has a hundred hunt reports over many years and all are positive but one, who are you going to book with? Then tell me that other experiences are not relevant.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
Let me see if I can state the issue in the form of a question. You are getting ready to book your next hunt. You are talking to two outfitters. Costs, etc. are essentially a push. One outfitter has one hunt report and it was positive. The other outfitter has a hundred hunt reports over many years and all are positive but one, who are you going to book with? Then tell me that other experiences are not relevant.

You're trying to compare apples and oranges here with 1 vs 100. Actually, if you want to play this game, one has a 100% track record with the other at 99%, so if you're going to base your decision with a % then you would choose the one with only one report; however, I would venture to guess there is statistically NO difference.

I truly believe that if things would have been handled/addressed differently on the booking agent and outfitters part, this topic would look vastly different. I'm not saying calling the hunter out or arguing this and that. An explaination or 'the other side of the story' would have made a huge difference. As it stands now, things don't look so good for one side!

Be it unfair, unrealistic, over reacting, not logical, etc., in any professional endeavor it often takes only one bad performance to destroy or greatly damage that professsional reputation or how well you are percieved by not only your peers, but clients as well. As any profession, your opportunity to earn greater income than so called wages/salaries requires that you perform and deliver goods and services far beyond average. (Hence the big bucks.)

See no reason to doubt the honesty of the negative report on this particular hunt and again, it only takes one serious negative to offset the numerous good ones. One can obviously take the good reports as a plus, but in all reality they are supposed to be "good ones." In fact there is no excuse for the bad ones and if they do occur compensation of some form had better come quickly and fairly. There is no choice regardless of the pain and suffering it takes to rectify the problem. As to who is to blame for stolen property, it happened on the outfitter's watch, in his camp, on his hunt, etc. Certainly not the client's fault unless he carelessly left his belongings lying about exposed or unsecure. If indeed he did that, again it is the outfitters responsiblity to protect the client and inform him of the proper manner to protect his gear.
A common approach to seeking new employees is to contact former employers and ask the simple question as to whether they would rehire the individual. If you are given a no, probably would not hire.

quote:

Let me see if I can state the issue in the form of a question. You are getting ready to book your next hunt. You are talking to two outfitters. Costs, etc. are essentially a push. One outfitter has one hunt report and it was positive. The other outfitter has a hundred hunt reports over many years and all are positive but one, who are you going to book with? Then tell me that other experiences are not relevant

Let me see if I can sum up my feelings. Just suppose that I book a hunt over two years in advance with a booking agent and pay him a reasonable deposit. Now picture how much actual paper work he does for the next month or three. Try near zero, he probably emails the outfitter and says, "We've got x dates scheduled for two plus years out." Now, let's say I change my mind and ask for my money back in a few months with two years to go prior to the actual hunt dates and the booking agent decides to keep $1700 of my deposit for "paperwork" expenses. Would I or anyone reasonable person think that is fair and would I or any reasonable person use that booking agent again, EVER? I don't think so. That's what is relevant to me.

Why would Mark open his mouth...he would be fired! As for the POS PH, he would have been found on the roadside...dead with a bullet wound, never mind the lions. The thieves...well there was a hell of a tracker there...why not use him to find the thieves and deal with them accordingly...the same way as the POS PH. I can tell you this, I hunted with a first rate PH in SA and it was WELL KNOWN that if ANY employee would resort to stealing from a client they would never be heard from again. Thats a fact! That PH was the owner of Madubula Safaris...truely one of the best there is anywhere and I had a wonderful PG hunt with him on the DeBeers Estate in SA. I was thinking of...but now VERY doubtful of booking a hunt thru Mark. Its just too bad a man can't stand up for saving his own name, much less his boss' name...unless what has been stated cannot be refuted. Just a very sad situation and if it is true...someone needs to leave the AR site ashamed!

I have been standing on the sidelines watching this and I will continue to do so. All I'm going to say is that there is more to the story than this...and none of it is good for Mark or Adam. There IS more to come. It's every bit (and more) as bad as some of you think it is. Shame on Mark and Adam.

I'd still like to know who decides the worth of the alleged stolen items and on what basis? The list of items provided in the post does not appear to me to total $3100.

Well.....

we still have yet to hear any form of rebuttal from Mark or Adam other than Mark's post which says, "...the matter is closed...",

and,

Yukon has implied that there is, in fact, more to this story, and whatever it may be is unfavorable to Mark and Adam,

and,

I just had dinner last night with a former and current client of Adam, who says Adam is in-country, and that he recently spoke to him by telephone, and that therefore, Adam is most likey aware of this thread.

Yes, it's noble to say there are two sides to this story. And yes it's noble to judge one on his "body of work".

But, IN THIS CASE, something smells.

Adam's silence has a distinct odor, enhanced ever so slightly by Mark's not so subtle attempt at subterfuge.

What say you, Noble Gentlemen?

quote:

Originally posted by gotogirl3:
I'd still like to know who decides the worth of the alleged stolen items and on what basis? The list of items provided in the post does not appear to me to total $3100.

I obviously don't know the exact list but it doesn't take much in the way of Leica binos and the RF to add up to $2000 plus, if they're the upper end of Ultra or Geovids then make that about $2500. How much the rest of it is or was worth I don't know but I have no reason to think he was jabbing them on the value. Are you implying that he is lying?

quote:

Originally posted by Gatogordo:

quote:

Let me see if I can state the issue in the form of a question. You are getting ready to book your next hunt. You are talking to two outfitters. Costs, etc. are essentially a push. One outfitter has one hunt report and it was positive. The other outfitter has a hundred hunt reports over many years and all are positive but one, who are you going to book with? Then tell me that other experiences are not relevant

Let me see if I can sum up my feelings. Just suppose that I book a hunt over two years in advance with a booking agent and pay him a reasonable deposit. Now picture how much actual paper work he does for the next month or three. Try near zero, he probably emails the outfitter and says, "We've got x dates scheduled for two plus years out." Now, let's say I change my mind and ask for my money back in a few months with two years to go prior to the actual hunt dates and the booking agent decides to keep $1700 of my deposit for "paperwork" expenses. Would I or anyone reasonable person think that is fair and would I or any reasonable person use that booking agent again, EVER? I don't think so. That's what is relevant to me.

I have seen an "agreement" from a well known America compnay that runs safaris in Tanzania.

It basically absolves them from ANY responssibity if anything goes wrong.

I cannot remember the exact details.

But, things such as changing concession, altering dates, not being responssible for any theft or injury are clearly mentioned.

They have not forgotten to mention how muc it would cost, and details of refunds were included.

It was such as that if you cancelled or altered your dates in advance by X dates, you will loose X% of your payment. It was on a sliding scale.

Of course, if THEY do it, it toug luck, as there was no mention of any refunds.

They basically say give us your money months in advance, and we will TRY to provide you with a safari.

If anything goes wrong, tough luck mate!

quote:

Originally posted by yukon delta:
I have been standing on the sidelines watching this and I will continue to do so............................. Shame on Mark and Adam.

So from the "sidelines," you throw an empty beer bottle?

Whatever Dude. You're just another "Internet Hero"

Regale us some more with your roll eyes icon and lines about the 500 Jeffery or what ever you just bought being the elephant gun for you.

Remind us, how many safaris have you been on and how many animals have you taken? One and one if I remember your story correctly.

quote:

Originally posted by Woodrow S:
As for the POS PH, he would have been found on the roadside...dead with a bullet wound, never mind the lions.

Woodrow, seriously man, if you go to Africa again, make sure and get so crosswise with your PH that he gets found, ".....dead with a bullet wound," take lots of pictures, careful notes, you know, meticulously document your manlyness and savagery. Post a detailed Hunt Report on AR. Many will be dying to know how that works out for you.

The old saying comes to mind on this: a couple have a great meal at a restaurant, they will tell 5 people. Same couple has an extraordinarily bad meal, they tell 20 people. Such is the nature of the beast, methinks. Back to the peanut gallery...

KG

Interesting reply Scott but your friend Mark has already tried those tactics of diverting the subject without success. Maybe you're confused but this topic isn't about what gun I shoot or how many safaris I have been on or what emoticon I like to use (what a strange comment).

Mark, if you're going to send someone to answer for you, at least give them some skills. Better yet, just do your own work. You and Adam have used this free forum to advertise hundreds of thousands of dollars in business. You like to toot your own horn on any and every topic and you're not very subtle about it (note...you should work on that). The truth is that your high pressure sales tactics, heavy reliance on Adam for marketing info and poor customer service are costing you. Your poor people skills aren't helping either. You said Adam would respond. Send Adam out...

quote:

As for the POS PH, he would have been found on the roadside...dead with a bullet wound, never mind the lions

So you would Murder your PH for being lazy????

Some companys and people continue on the straight and narrow for a lenghty time building up good will and repeat customers. Then sometimes they quite suddenly change. It can be for many reasons but it does happen. That is a fact that makes older favorable reports so unreliable. If this is one of the circumstances where a business is or has been changing its moral position so to speak, it may be just the first of an ever increasing number of bad experiences leading to the end. As a consumer of safari products I will not accept this risk (on top of all the other risks) to my hard earned fun money. There is no reason to. They do not have the market cornered in any african country. I am thankful that by luck or skill I chose some other outfit for my Cameroon hunts although who knows how they will shake out in the end.

quote:

Originally posted by Woodrow S:
Why would Mark open his mouth...he would be fired! As for the POS PH, he would have been found on the roadside...dead with a bullet wound, never mind the lions. The thieves...well there was a hell of a tracker there...why not use him to find the thieves and deal with them accordingly...the same way as the POS PH.

I haven't been Posting here a long time but I have read through every thread on this and several other Forums and I gotta say that's the single stupidest thing I've ever seen here.

I'm just assuming Woodrow was very drunk when he Posted that, but sure as hell if I ever find myself hunting any area where I know this guy is I'll stay behind him, he might take exception to my aftershave or something.

As for the subject of the thread, from what I gather Mark represents some top-notch outfits, but I guess nobody has all winners. His handling of what seem to be legitimate complaints in this case will undoubtedly cost him business.

quote:

Originally posted by yukon delta:
Interesting reply Scott but your friend Mark has already tried those tactics of diverting the subject without success. Maybe you're confused but this topic isn't about what gun I shoot or how many safaris I have been on or what emoticon I like to use (what a strange comment).

Mark, if you're going to send someone to answer for you, at least give them some skills. Better yet, just do your own work. You and Adam have used this free forum to advertise hundreds of thousands of dollars in business. You like to toot your own horn on any and every topic and you're not very subtle about it (note...you should work on that). The truth is that your high pressure sales tactics, heavy reliance on Adam for marketing info and poor customer service are costing you. Your poor people skills aren't helping either. You said Adam would respond. Send Adam out...

Sorry, I did post off topic. I suppose I should take my "Bryan, (aka Yukon Delta,) doesn't know what he's talking about." thread to the Misc forum.

Yes Mark! Send out Adam! (you do tell him what to do don't you?) Adam need to lower himself down into the un winnable "He said, She said,..." of the internet.

quote:

Originally posted by mrlexma:


First, yours is not the first extremely negative report on that particular PH that I have read on these forums and otherwise heard about. One bad report I can attribute to personality conflict. Multiple reports and I start thinking the guy's a loser. I would not hunt with him, I know that.

x2

I have been in camps where theft was a concern but I was warned.
Theft on Safari has always been an issue so be warned .

On all the safaris I have been on, in many different camps, with different outfitters, we have NEVER had anything go astray.

Funny enough, we have had no "security guards" in our camp at Mahenge North, and nothing went wrong.

We have had sesurity guards in camps we hunted in the Selous.

Again, nothing ever went astray.

The security of the camp is the absolute responsibility of the outfitter running it.

Anytime an outfitter tells me otherwise, he can take a hike, and I will hunt with some one else.

And the beat goes on. Where is Mark? Where is Adam? ???????

Based upon the foregoing, who in their right minds would book with these guys?

Noble Gentlemen. We are waiting.....

?

I really would like to hear the other side of this story.

But I guess they employ crickets, though, because that is all I hear.

It is interesting how this has gone. Like so many F*ckups the real Sh*t hits the fan in the follow up be it a cover up or a refusal to deal with the matter. Hate to bring or reference politics but you all know Watergate, Monica etc.

quote:

Originally posted by Die Ou Jagter:
It is interesting how this has gone. Like so many F*ckups the real Sh*t hits the fan in the follow up be it a cover up or a refusal to deal with the matter. Hate to bring or reference politics but you all know Watergate, Monica etc.

People will forgive mistakes, but will crucify you for a cover-up.

Ain't that the truth? If Nixon had just done what he was initially thinking about doing, no one would even remember the name of that hotel. Funny how letting things fester have a way of eventually biting you in the a$$.

Since we book for Con Van Wyk who now hunts in this area, I asked him for his take on this report and in particular regarding the number of buffalo.

He states that there are plenty of buff in this area. As good as or better than K1 and K2 which adjoin. Last season, he took 40 with his clients, out of a quota of 45. However, this area used to be a citizen hunting area. At that time, a lot of shooting was done from vehicles. So in order to be successful here, you have to get out of the vehicle and track. The animals are quite vehicle-shy. This makes some sense reading JJ Miller's report of some time ago, where the problem appeared to be too much vehicle time. However, the hunters in this post report doing a lot of walking, but no luck. It appears their problem wasn't lack of buffalo, but rather lack of zeal/skill on the part of the PH concerned.

I haven't hunted this area personally and am currently looking for a partner so I can do just that. He has a really good deal on a 2x1 for the balance of this season, either one buff each or two each.

This may just be outfitter-speak but I doubt it. Con is a straight shooter.

I didn't ask him about the PG situation directly, but in response to a question from a potential client, he did state that there are no Lesser Kudu, Thompsons, or Gerenuk in this area. Frankly, the PG trophy fees are quite steep comparatively speaking, so I would/will concentrate my efforts on buffalo. You can take 2 on a 10 day licence in this area.

Regarding his hunting rights in this area, it's my understanding that he had this area before Bundu got it, and the way he puts it, he has now "got it back" so I am not sure what if anything Bundu is doing in this area. Mark says Adam "lets Con hunt" in the area. That's an aside but we will find out.

Mahenge North has relatively few plains game animals when we hunted there.

Animals like lesser kudu, Thompson and Grants are only found in the Northern parts of Tanzania, and certainly at at Mahenge North.

We did not see a single impala, wildebeest, sable or kudu while there.

There were plenty of kongoni, and even zebra were rather scarce.

We had no problems shooting all our quota of buffalo though.

I don't mind hunting the same area again, but I don't think I want to hunt Mahenge North again.

The main reason is I prefer to have a camp by the river.

This is not possible in Mahenge North.

Hi Saeed,

I did read your report from ?2006 on this area, and it seems you guys did very well on buff. Thanks for the clarification regarding PG, it's consistent with other info. Seems like Hartebeest and Zebra and Warthog are all you can count on. 10 day licence doesn't allow kudu or sable anyway.

I plan to go out myself to MN later this year, if plans work out, so I can be more informed. I don't like to sell a hunt I haven't done myself. The offer from Con seemed very good so I did pass it along on the forum.