Reading this is so sad.

A hunter puts down a bunch of money and ends up not having an enjoyable experience. I hope this never happens to me.

Having said that, I have dealt with Mark for some time now (not very long by some of your standards, but long enough to get some serious money involved). I have always found him to be honest and helpful, and in the occasions when I have had issues, able to help out quickly before it gets to be a real mess.

I guess that this is the usual situation for a internet disagreement in that people say what looks like the worst thing that happened by their perception here. I'm not going to lie and say that if I had heard this in September of '07 when I was over in Zimbabwe, I wouldn't have wondered what I had gotten into- but I was there, and it ended up being a wonderful trip- to the point that I immediately rebooked for Leopard, and let Mark talk me into Lion this year. I would not deal with someone I felt was a thief, a liar, or being too pushy.

I hope that anything that was not settled between you and Adam Clements gets settled to your mutual satisfaction, but I have to say that the service I have received from them is a polar opposite from what you describe.

As for the Internet Judge and Jury, why not wait until Adam has something to say- I hope all of this is just a misunderstanding between you two- but I have to admit if what the original poster described happened to me I would be furious.

On the other hand, at least this time there is no talk of make up or women's underwear.

cb

This report is one of the reasons this forum is so valuable to me. When I read dukxdog's report I was reminded of a few experiences I had with outfitters, not hunting, but with fishing trips in Central America. I made eight trips there and two were not so great, but even those were not even close to this disaster if it is accurate as posted.

Mark says that the majority of posters seem to believe the worst. Well the majority of people don't post negative reports unless there is something negative. Mark's response up to this point is not what I would want to hear from my outfitter (Gee whiz). I am waiting to hear any responses.

The information provided here is one of the reasons this forum is so successful. We want to know who the good outfitters are. There are two sides to the story and not much time has passed since the posting, but there is another post here that does not reflect well on Mark and another negative one for Adam Clements Safari Trackers.

Time will tell if the other side of the story will change anything, so I plan to stay tuned to this forum with the hope that information provided here will increase my odds for an outstanding hunt when I am ready to go.

It is funny how some posters say 'wait until the other side of the story is told', yet, in the same breath you jump to Mark's defense; therefore, not following your own sound advice.

It is true that Adam and associates are probably in the bush hunting nasties, but at the same time the one who represents his company simply posts a report that states, "I'll leave adressing Bobby's comments one by one to Adam ..." One would think a booking agent would go to bat for one of the companies he represents, who knows? Which may reaffirm that "silence speaks volumes"?

It appears to me that Adam doesn't have first hand knowledge of what exactly happen in the bush either, but only what his employee, Paul, told him. So, why not believe what dukxdog has outlined?

quote:

Originally posted by graybird:
..................... who knows?....................

Couldn't agree more.

I don't doubt the hunter didn't enjoy his safari. I think that is really too bad. I hope the next one goes great for him.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
So if you think this report was not correct, both you and Adam are free to post your answers.

I absolutely agree with Saeed and look forward to Mark or Adam’s reply.

Dukxdog, sorry to hear about your experience.

After thinking it over, I was a harsh calling Mark a "liar". I'm sorry. He did tell us there were plenty of Impala and wildebeest in the area so there would be no problem getting either of them. That is what I was refering to. Paul and the Game scout both said there were no Impala or wildebeest there but were "plent" in the Selous. Our area was not good for either of them. Mark did tell us the buffalo we would see would be in the 36-38" class and that was fine with us.

Richard was 65. This hunt was his dream for many years. He probably won't be going back. All he wanted was a buff and an Impala. Due to the circumstances of the trip he never even fired a shot while there. He walked his butt off and did everything required of him to make it happen. He walked blisters on his feet and still kept going every day without any complaint. I told Paul to get him one first and then we would hunt for mine. We were within 75-100yds of Buffalo so many times but since PH Paul would not back out and approach downwind, as Anton suggested, the herds were spooked each time.

Another thing I could not understand is that we kept after large herds of buffalo. We did track a group of 3 bulls and a group of 7 bulls for a little ways. The group of 7 were near camp when we crossed the tracks. We followed them into a dense thicket getting about 25yds from them but could only see a nose. Paul said we should back out without spooking them so we could try for them later but we never did. Going after the large herds didn't work out very well for us. I wish we would have tried more for the groups of bulls.

quote:

Originally posted by Scott King:

quote:

Originally posted by graybird:
..................... who knows?....................

Couldn't agree more.

I don't doubt the hunter didn't enjoy his safari. I think that is really too bad. I hope the next one goes great for him.

Well, horse manure. The TWO hunters know, they were there, and Mark Young hasn't said squat to dispute one statement the hunter has made. If anyone thinks this report is suddenly "news" to Mr. Young, then be sure to send the money for the treasure that Nigerian is holding for you.

quote:

Trial and execusion via internet. Gee whiz!

That's the way it is these days. You better get used to it. Unless there is a pretty detailed and convincing rebuttal I'll make sure I never hunt with this outfit.

I have a cartoon in my office from the New Yorker that I have had for several years. In my business it is helpful to look at it from time to time.

Two people are standing in front of a judge, the judge is looking down at them and the caption reads, "Since you have already been convicted by the media, I imagine we can wrap this up pretty quickly."

Before I pass judgment, I guess I will wait for both sides to weigh in.

quote:

We were within 75-100yds of Buffalo so many times but since PH Paul would not back out and approach downwind, as Anton suggested, the herds were spooked each time.

quote:

Paul and the Game scout both said there were no Impala or wildebeest there but were "plent" in the Selous. Our area was not good for either of them.

It would appear that while the "buffalo" problem was caused by the PH, the impala problem is another matter. Then there is the security issue.

It appears that the whole management team has failed the customer. A non existent product was sold, there was a failure to deliver on another, and when security failed, immediate action was not taken, and subsequent action was incomplete.

The big question is what is the path forward?

The prosecution has rested after presenting a very compelling case against the defendants. Now it is up to the defense to present their case. If they elect not to do so then I am sure most of us will find them guilty in our minds. Until then I believe most of us will be very reluctant to use their services. Mark and Adam, the ball is now in your court.

465H&H

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:
The prosecution has rested after presenting a very compelling case against the defendants. Now it is up to the defense to present their case. If they elect not to do so then I am sure most of us will find them guilty in our minds. Until then I believe most of us will be very reluctant to use their services. Mark and Adam, the ball is now in your court.

I ought to just leave this alone since I have no dog in the fight. First, I do not know dukxdog and have never booked a hunt with Mark or Adam Clements -- do not think I have even ever met either of them in person at one of the shows. That said, the foregoing seems to reflect a sort of tit-for-tat way of dealing with this that I think is difficult if you are the business owner. The difference and hence the difficulty -- in my mind -- is that Mark and Adam Clements are a business and dukxdog is their customer. The customer is obviously unhappy, so do most businesses respond with a lambasting of the customer? My point is that it is a bit difficult for a business owner to just wade right in and start to tear down a customer, even if the customer may be wrong (which I have no clue whether that is the case or not in this instance). So the business is in a damned if I do, damned if I do not position. If they ignore it, everyone assumes it must all be true. If they respond, some folks will say they are just being defensive and trying to save their arse, others will be offended that they aired the customer's dirty laundry and should have showed more respect for the customer. Bottom line, it is not quite as simple in my mind as just saying that the business owner should wade right in to what is already a no win situation.

Mjines,

I respectfully disagree. They do not have to shoot it out but I expect people to defend their integrity and stand up for what they believe in.

I would certainly hope a "no win situation" would not stop someone from doing what they believe is right. But maybe that is where we have got to in this society.

Remember the Alamo!

Mike,

I agree with you in principle. However, in this case,almost a year has passed. Seems to me that plenty of time has elapsed to put this issue to bed, which obviously has not been done.

It certainly isn't necessary to try the case in front of the Internet court, but the client apparently held off as long as he felt he could, and it seems to me a year is plenty.

Tom.

I see 3 issues here. The first being the lack of game. Do you have a sense of how successful the hunters in that area were immediately before and after you were? Given this is "wild Africa" the outfitter/PH cannot control where the game is and is not. Don't get me wrong, I would be discouraged and pissed if I did not have the opportutnity to at least hear my gun off other than when zeroing. At the same time, this may (emphasis added) have been out of the control of the outfitter/ph. If it was known that the area was void of game / overshot then alternative plans should have been made.

The second issue pertains to the theft of your gear. Again, I would be pissed. Upon arrival in camp last year, I put my passport, travel documents and money in the camp safe. I left thousands of dollars of comupters and satellite equipment in my chalet and never gave it a second thought. Did they offer a safe? Even then, I do believe that given the circumstances (in a remote camp controlled/operated by the safari company) that you should be made whole on the theft of your property (no applicable insurance?).

Lastly is the issue of whether this should be discussed here or not and if/how the outfitter/agent should respond. The former is easy, ABSOLUTELY, the latter is more complex. Hunt reports both good and bad are critical pieces of information and this one was presented without all of the frills (pun intended) of some negative reports, straight and to the point. It is even more appropriate given that the agent/outfitter was probably discovered on this site, thus the forum/"jurisdiction" is appropriate. I agree with Mike that the agent/outfitter are virtually in a position of damned if you do and damned if you dont. However, we have seen good examples of how an agent can correctly deal with negative reports (Wendell for example) and how an agent can completely screw up the handling of a bad situation (Ray Atkinson as the model here). These guys taking advantage of the free marketing here on AR have to understand that selling hunts here is a dual edged sword and must be willing to take the good with the bad.

In the end, I am just sorry that you and you friend did not have a great African experience.

I have dealt with Mark for over two years. I have found him honest and honorable in his dealings. I also had a less than satisfactory hunt in Mahenge North in 06. George

I don't know any of the parties here.

Purchasing a hunt doesn't guarantee success. A bit like buying a car I suppose. Buyer beware. Theft occurs everywhere. Travel Insurance should have covered that. Sounds like there was a lack of control in the camp. Sorry the hunt didn't end up as planned. I'd hate to have been in the shoes of the hunter.

If you guys recall, there was a report of a bad hunt with a PH not conducting himself in a professional manner. The hunter brought it to the companies attention and a full refund was produced. The hunt was with HHK and as I recall, Graham Hingston stepped up big time and refunded the hunters money. I for one considered that when I booked for 09. I hope a rebuttal is made soon. Certainly the agent should be given the opportunity to share his side of the story.

i had a hunt schedules for this area but canceled it when tanz went nuts. it was booked with adam through mark. 1st i've use mark and adam several times and while not the cheapest outfitter out there they have always been honest - exuberant perhaps but honest with me. when i had booked this hunt mark told me upfront that i would seen buff., but little else. The cost of the hunt was 7000. a fraction of the price of most tanz hunts. Now when i buy something for a fraction of the price i'd better go in the front door realizing that its super cheap for a reason. Such is my take on the matter. I does take 2 to fight, and in this case its only one. if i were mark i'd keep my mouth shut until i had all the facts too.

Integrity calls for total reimbursement of the cost of stolen items or replace them and offer dissatified client a future discount buffalo hunt. Make it right.

Anything else is dishonest....or foolish business. I hope it is the latter, that at least can be corrected and rectified.


dale

Folks,

Mike Jines assessment below of the situation between Bobby Lowe and Adam Clements Safari Trackers is spot on and I have borrowed it because I could not have said it better. We have dealt with Bobby as fairly as we know how and the matter is closed as far as we are concerned. We are always sad when a client is unhappy and we are sorry that Bobby and his friend found their expereince disappointing.

Below Mike's comments I have attached a hunt report much differnet than Bobby's just so you folks could read it for comparison.

BTW If anyone would like to check I think Don Causey has 29 reports on us and 28 are positive. Fairly good track record there.

Mark


I ought to just leave this alone since I have no dog in the fight. First, I do not know dukxdog and have never booked a hunt with Mark or Adam Clements -- do not think I have even ever met either of them in person at one of the shows. That said, the foregoing seems to reflect a sort of tit-for-tat way of dealing with this that I think is difficult if you are the business owner. The difference and hence the difficulty -- in my mind -- is that Mark and Adam Clements are a business and dukxdog is their customer. The customer is obviously unhappy, so do most businesses respond with a lambasting of the customer? My point is that it is a bit difficult for a business owner to just wade right in and start to tear down a customer, even if the customer may be wrong (which I have no clue whether that is the case or not in this instance). So the business is in a damned if I do, damned if I do not position. If they ignore it, everyone assumes it must all be true. If they respond, some folks will say they are just being defensive and trying to save their arse, others will be offended that they aired the customer's dirty laundry and should have showed more respect for the customer. Bottom line, it is not quite as simple in my mind as just saying that the business owner should wade right in to what is already a no win situation.

Mike


Adam,

I am not an AR member and I recently read the commentary on a members Mahenge North hunt with Paul Horsley. If you feel it is appropriate please post this letter complete and unedited so that AR readers may benefit from another view.

Chet

AR Readers,
I am not an AR member but in reading the recent discussion on Mahenge North I thought it may be helpful if I shared my experience. I hunted Mahenge North in 2006 1x1 with Paul Horsley and booked through Safari Trackers. My concern is that parts of the post are intended to reflect poorly on Paul Horsley, his work ethnic, his honesty and his professionalism. As my experience in hunting with Paul has been quite the opposite I feel a another view should be shared. It is also important to note that Paul Horsley cannot rebut, or would he, as a professional PH one does not discuss his clients.

Safety at the Mahenge North Camp – My mindset in traveling to Africa is that what ever you take Africa could possibly stay there. I was told when booking that the camp was guarded. I did not feel at risk at any time, or that the camp needed to be guarded but in Africa it truly seems every precaution is necessary.

Hunting with Paul Horsley - Hunting with Paul and Anton was unique in the fact that they spoke Swahili in discussing the hunt strategies so I did know first hand the discussion they had until Paul translated. What I came to understand is that Anton’s job was to get us to the buffalo then Paul was to identify the trophy, position the client and have the bull shot safely. We did not continuously push the buffalo after bumping them because the odds for getting a quality shot were drastically reduced. I viewed Paul’s decision when to and not to push buffalo as smart and experienced not lazy.

On one occasion, we tracked buffalo deep into bush and got twisted around (trackers included). Paul and I walked at least seven hours non stop to the truck. My only point is that Paul is more than fit and capable of walking to what ever extent your safari requires.

I was fortunate to shoot two buffalo on my hunt and enjoy the experience of the post kill carcass loading. Buffalo are not gutted as we gut deer , but cut in half (with an ax) and pulled apart by the trackers, the guts “fall†out and the two halves are loaded in the truck. I would not open up a buffalo in the wilds of Africa until the truck and the trackers were available to load it.

Both of my buffalo were hard boss and Paul was very selective on shoot able bulls and we passed at least one soft bull that was probably 40 inches.

I also watched Paul on the recent TV show where his client failed to shoot a buffalo. It has been my experience with Paul that if he puts the sticks up there is a bull to shoot.

Tipping- Paul’s handling of tipping was also handled very professionally. He brought in the trackers, scout and camp manager and I handed out the tips we discussed. It was appreciated and a good experience for everyone. The drivers to and from camp were not viewed as part of the camp or part of the camp tipping process. Right or wrong I did not tip them as they were part of the normal camp supply runs and I did not expect Paul to tip them out of the camp staff pot. Paul and his staff were very reasonable in their tipping expectations. My handling at the airport was uneventful.

Mahenge North Hunting Area – In my opinion this hunt area can be challenging as it is very much like whitetails in the woods in the US. These buffalo are hunted and they are wary, sorting out a bull can be difficult. But there are plenty of buffalo. There is plains game there and it is usually more difficult to hunt than buffalo. This is due to high grass, thick cover and more difficult tracking. One of he best thing about this area is it is truly Africa complete with lions and elephant. I saw at least 12 different species of big game in seven days.

Random thoughts – I would hunt Mahenge North again if it was priced appropriately. If I could afford to pay 30% more I would probably choose a different area in Selous. I would definitely hunt with Paul Horsley again and probably will. I hunted 1x1 and would never hunt buffalo 2x1. TZ Bundu Safaris runs a fine camp and made a significant investment to offer a quality buffalo hunt at a price point I could afford.

This is the extent of my comment on the matter.

Thanks, Chet

Having my own business, you from time to time will have a customer that is not happy with your service or product. It happens. I always try to look at those as opportunity. You can really hit a home run with your customer if you handle the problem correctly. Just saying your sorry is not enough. I usually begin by letting the customer vent and then tell them "I am sorry for the problem, I am willing to do anything you would like to correct it."
Completely disarms them and they have always come up with a reasonable request. You can will the battle with the customer and lose the war.
I wonder if the hunter had been taken care of, would he have hunting again with Adam's company?? May never know. I think Adam won this battle, but because of this fourm, lost the war with this hunter and many others...

Posting a positive hunt report, does not nullify the problem hunt. Mark has know about this hunt for almost a year and you have nothing to say, but that you consider it closed?

Bad hunts are going to happen, not much can be done with that...what is done after that speaks volumes!

quote:

Posting a positive hunt report, does not nullify the problem hunt. Mark has know about this hunt for almost a year and you have nothing to say, but that you consider it closed?

Actually, posting a positive hunt report rather than than addressing the problem hunt seems a lot like stonewalling.

But just think;

For a mere 30% more,you could be successful,and probably not have your stuff stolen....

and,on another thread(africa hunting)seen 40 lions(!) (same outfitter of course)

The more I do this,the more you know that this is just like the used car buisness;

All the promises,no accountability.Cause that's exactly what this is,a buisness;don't fool yourselves,we are just sheep looking to survive the wolves for just a bite of grass.Someone will look at the handfull of supplied references,and think I'll hunt with these guys,cause they are lookin' out for me.

Look at that letter,even says the client in this case screwed up for hunting 2 on 1,in its not so subtle way.What did you ask the guy "put something in there about 2 on 1 hunting,and thats its bad too"

What a crock of dog doo....

Does anyone here think its ironic that this agent is posting about camp security on another thread?

This one here was from a little old lady who always had the oil changed......


dan

Howdy,

Ya gotta love it - the good ole American Business Solution - shut up, divert, discredit, take no responsibility and eventually it will all just go away.

Adios and this is one booking agent/firm that I will just laugh at when I see the advertisements in SCI and other journals along with the bullshit posts at this web site.

Adios

Sport

Invariably, along about page 2 on these forums directed at "issues" things begin to deteriote from reasonable discussion and points of view to sniping.
Mr Woodman Dan, please read Chet's hunt report pasted above as well as mine on page one. Unless you have something constructive to add at this point, shots across the bow will only beget more tirades and armchair quaterbacking.

The tone of your comments is exactly the reason why Adam Clements isn't likely to get into point - counterpoint on this matter. read that as pissing match. Other contributors above have more eloquently stated the dangers inherint to this type of public participation.

Extracting that pound of flesh is first and foremost between client and company. Cheap shots contribute nothing, especially if you don't know of which you speak.

Do booking agents not follow up with clients after the hunts to see how things went?
In an earlier post it mentioned being in business and asking a dissatisfied customer how can we fix the problem.I think if booking agents did follow ups and tended to problems befor they got out of hand things would be a lot easier for everyone.Still doesn't fix a screwed up hunt but a least lets the client know that the booking agent didn't just take his money and run out to find the next client.

it seems to me if things went as stated it would be prudent to give the guy the money for his stolen stuff and take both clients on a free buffalo hunt. I would also let my staff know if anything at all was ever stolen from camp the money would come from their tips so they better police each other.Now on the other hand if things did not happen as descibed i think an explaination of the outfitters side of the story would surely do no harm.

MARK H. YOUNG posted 19 August 2008 20:38

quote:

We have dealt with Bobby as fairly as we know how and the matter is closed as far as we are concerned.

Wow.

so i guess the hunter is just SOL for his stolen items. strange concept of " camp security". oops, i guess $2000 for $3100 worth of equipment is fair compensation. even on a discounted rate, Tz. buff hunts aren't cheap and it is a bit hard to imagine an area in Tz. that can't offer at least a shot at one. i know one thing- if i ever am told that i will be hunting with Paul Horsley, i am taking my money and going elsewhere. there are way too many negative comments here to ever suit me and way to many companies/PH's to chose from to take such a risk.

I am sure Mark/Adam have lost some possible clients, maybe they have enough and do not care. I wonder if Mark/Adam depreciated the clients items for use and that is why they gave him $2k for $3.1k.

I am amazed on how the outfitters love to put their hunts for sale, love to put their pictures of happy clients with pictures of great trophies. They tell you how wonderul they are and how great their areas are, and then there is a problem and a clinet posts a horror story aand you get this well thought out POS of a response. "We have dealt with Bobby as fairly as we know how and the matter is closed as far as we are concerned"

Mark/Adam really need to reply with their side of the story and then drop it.

A rip off with the agent's tacit approval. Get a rope.

whats the deal where the outfitter should be responsible for stolen items? if your car gets stolen out of your driveway should the guy who made the driveway be responsible?? I've had many things stolen in and out of camps. I'd tell the PH or outfitter about it, but never expected that some black guy would admit to it. Its called employee theft. We have a big problem with it in this country. If theft really worries you - go buy insurance. I do and they pay the bill

I totally disagree with butchoc. Security in camp is a function of camp management. There is another thread about security that is a good read.

I will not hunt in a camp where security is an issue.

Participating in an internet discussion forum as "one of the guys" AND doing business at the same time with the same guys is a tricky situation to say the least. Live by the net and die by the net so to speak. Folks may or not may not be what they seem or the same as the internet persona they create.

How do you handle it? I don't know. but if I was in a safari related business, I sure as heck would separate my business from my pleasure. If I wanted to 'be one of the guys' and chat, I sure wouldn't post under the same name, heck I would try to make sure the avg member didn't know I was the same person! I think the problem is that a lot of business is done as "one of the guys", but when there is a problem, it is handled as 'business'.

How many darlings of AR are going to stumble? Who knows, but when a high post count outfitter fiasco like this rears its ugly head, I am reminded of the Ray disaster as well as JBelk. This wont be the first or the last debacle.

Caveat emptor and all that. AR seems to be a good start to finding a hunt, but when shelling out $15K+ (as is coming more common), sole source research is not enough.

Good luck to all the involved parties and hopefully a mutually agreeable solution is still possible.

quote:

I am sure Mark/Adam have lost some possible clients, maybe they have enough and do not care.

Maybe they don't appreciate how pissed off; no I'll say enraged, it makes other hunters when they find out one of their fellow hunters has been treated that way. If they were smart, they would take what little dignity they have left and make things right.

quote:

Originally posted by chopper12:
Do booking agents not follow up with clients after the hunts to see how things went?
In an earlier post it mentioned being in business and asking a dissatisfied customer how can we fix the problem.I think if booking agents did follow ups and tended to problems befor they got out of hand things would be a lot easier for everyone.Still doesn't fix a screwed up hunt but a least lets the client know that the booking agent didn't just take his money and run out to find the next client.

In my experience with several booking agents, I have never had one follow up with a call or e-mail to see how the hunt went. With my business, we always make follow up calls and send out a 3 page questionaire to see how we can do better. Thats just how we run our business.

It is frankly amazing -- and sad at some level -- that so many folks posting have quite simply just assumed the absolute truth and veracity of all of the elements of the original complaint and then based all of their "heartfelt" conclusions on that "fact". Reality is that only two people on this thread know all the facts.

mJINES

I think the fact that the hunter in question waited a year to post this makes me belive he truly tried to work this out with the outfitter.
Someone trying to hurt someone else would not have waited that long. I have been in many camps and was told just leave your stuff it will be fine. The hunting company has to see that the employee's they hire don't steal. If my employees stole something I would have to make it good. That's why we make the big bucks


You have to listen to both side and make up your mind. I belive the hunter based on what I have heard.