Thanks Coyote.... That is a good price, and if I were not flush up right now I would jump all over
them.... Right now Remington has made a big run of 375 RUM... Between what I had on backorder for so many months, and what I have bought in addition, I have now about 3700 pieces or more....

Now we wait on 300 RUM and the rest of the RUM family, and Winchester WSM has gone too. So waiting on Remington and WInchester runs on that...

Speaking of 375 RUM and others, I have been busy making some 500 MDM brass. Normally in the past I have been blowing out with corn meal, and that has been very good, giving ready to load brass after sized and trimmed. The little ghost shoulder even looks good. But, this is a lot of trouble and work, so Sam being the pal that he is, made an entire set of forming punches for me. I am using a 3 step process to take the brass up from 375 to .500, then running it through the size die. While it is not quite as pretty as the corn meal brass, it is so much easier and more efficient. But like everything else there are a few little setbacks to this, not many, but a few... Let me explain...

New brass has to form the the chamber when fired. Some cartridges there is zero issue with this, and some cartridges do not do so well. Especially rimless like the RUMs. Of all the B&Ms the troublesome cartridges are 416 B&M, 475 B&M, and 500 MDM. Now any and all issues can be solved to 98-99% by under sizing the new brass, allowing that shoulder to bump when it goes in the chamber. This does not allow the brass to flow forward when fired. Now this is true with most any shoulder cartridges, even belted that have shoulders, they will also move forward to form in the chamber. Like the B&Ms, some are not an issue, some are. The 30/06 based cartridges also suffer some of these problems as well. Not really a problem, just a fact of life, brass flows when fired.

In forming the 500 MDM the last few weeks I have full length resized so it flops right in the chamber, without a bump or issue going in. While it is not really pretty cartridges, like the fire formed cases, it does work 100% feed and function, and could even be used on a hunt. But once and awhile a particular piece of brass will flow, and there is the problem. Most of the time not severe, but you can toss that piece of brass because it is going to separate, if it did not already do so. In the photo below you will see a few out of 200 pieces that were allowed to flow too much. You can see the ring around the case about 3/4 inch up from the base. This flowed forward, and stretched. Sometimes they even separate completely, as you see on the right. Now all these loads were actually low pressures, running 50000-52000 PSI. So high pressures do not cause this.




Now take a look at these primers! For someone that is not familiar with brass flow, one would SWEAR this was caused by an over pressure load. Well, its not, its the brass flowing forward, then slamming backward against the bolt face. During this flow forward, primer is allowed to back out some, and then slammed flat as it returns back to the bolt face. In this case, a tighter extractor hold would prevent some of this, but not always.... Regardless it was not high pressures that did this, just plain old brass flow.



Now here is one that literally blew..... This was a test load, would have been the same exact load I am taking to Australia, 335 gr #13 HP and 95/RL 7 for 2650 fps. This is 50000-52000 PSI load, not high pressure. I can't say 100% sure that this load was not actually a mistake I made, too much powder, too much something, I can't say. I did pull the second round, and it was dead on 95/RL 7. And, the biggest indicator of all, the rifle opened easy, and the case fell out of the chamber without any help or assistance, which does in fact indicate low pressure, and serious brass flow forward, allowing the primer to blow out as it was coming back...... This of course looks extremely serious, but it was not really...... One would think the rifle blew looking at this... LOL.....





Here is what formed brass left looks like compared to fired brass.....



Here you can just make a simple paper clip, run this inside the case, and you can feel where it is about to separate. You can also very easy see the outside ring around the case as well.....



One does not want to use this brass again, it will separate like in the extreme case above.... And if you were to be using a high pressure load, then it will just not simply fall out of the chamber and it will be a bitch to remove!

One more thing concerning some of this 375 RUM brass, I have found some of it with oversized primer cups, and somewhat beveled at the top. This allows the primer to flow into the bevel, and flattening out like a serious high pressure load, but not......

Next one some more of the same with 416 B&M...

Michael

I guess now it has been over a year since I discovered in 416 B&M that if we used a ball powder, such as AA2520, and did not allow that shoulder to bump a little with new brass, then we got brass flow, and head separation in a serious way. This we knew from the beginning, but a little over a year ago I discovered if we used a stick type powder, such as IMR 8208, and we full length resized making new brass easy to chamber on its first firing, that we only suffered very minor losses to head separation, just by using a stick powder, that for some reason did not allow for so much brass flow forward.

Just these last few weeks I have been working hard with New Brass, full length resized, and H-4198 with the 225 gr #13 HP, which I am taking to Australia.

And just the last few days this 180 gr CEB also with H-4198.

Well what I discovered here is that the lower pressure loads were giving me more brass flow than higher pressure loads, in particular with the 180 CEB. I started out with 68/H-4198, just under 3000 fps in the 18 inch 416 B&M and until I got up to 72/H-4198 all the brass showed head separation.....





Once I got to 72/H-4198 and 50000 PSI the head separation disappeared and I had no issues up to 76/H-4198. I settled on 75/H-4198 that gave me 3330 fps in 20 inches and 3190 fps in 18 inches of 416 B&M........ And as you see on the terminal thread, excellent terminal performance as well.....



But with this 180 CEB which is not a BBW#13 Nose Profile, it has a long nose projection, and I had to trim the case back from 2.240 to 2.180 to allow it to fit in the WSM magazine...... Not a big deal, and the thing shoots great in this configuration. I made about 20 cases, what did not separate I will be using to take 10 of these loads to Australia and hit some cows with them.....

I also used some cut and trimmed 375 RUM brass for these 416 B&M loads... And again, because of brass flow you see some extremely flat primers, which the uneducated would believe to be extreme high pressure loads... But not so. Brass Flow again.....








Michael

Michael

Thats fascinating about the difference in powders- will be very useful.

I must say I a really looking forward to your results with the 416, esp the 225 gr., that looks like a sweet spot weight wise to me.

Good luck and have fun in OZ.

PS got my tusks on pedestals back from Jerry Huffacker today. the ones from the FIRST elle taken with the 416 B&M.

Very interesting, in the sense of the Chinese curse "May you live in interesting times."

Hypothetically:
If something allows the case to move forward on firing pin strike,
the case will be wedged into the shoulder/neck area as pressure builds,
then even a low peak pressure of 50K will make the case stretch backward/breechward.
If pressure is even lower, and case has minimum taper and grips chamber wall well,
then the fireformed case would end up with a primer standing proud not flush,
and the base to shoulder distance would be short on the fireformed case. Bad juju either way.

Hypothetical Solutions:
Make sure the cases are tightly headspacing.
Shoulder bumping on the .416 B&M for hard bolt closing on initial fireforming of new brass
with first sizing with FL die slightly backed out from full sizing position.
500 MDM: Seat the bullet firmly into the rifling lands for initial fire forming
with 50K load of slow powder that is slightly compressed,
so neither bullet nor case can move on firing pin strike.

Smoky necks do usually indicate a low pressure load.


Now I better shut up and learn before I remove all doubt that I am an idiot (like shootaway).

Sean

Yes, keep that in mind with your 416.... If using lighter bullets use 69/70 gr of H-4198 with the 225 and you can shoot new brass full length sized no issue, and for the heavier bullets use IMR 8208 new brass full sized, no issues. Use AA 2520 then bump the shoulder.

I like the 225 as well, and putting a lot of faith in it for Australia and cow buffalo. I have also been recommending it for bear, moose, elk, things like that as well. According to the tests here, 21 inches of penetration at 2900 fps, I think it will get the job done, I will know for a fact in a few weeks.

Excellent.. How about some photos of that Ivory? First Ivory taken with 416 B&M....



RIP......

You are correct, and I concur with both Hypothetical and Hypothetical Solutions....

We knew about the 416 from before and the change of powder from ball to stick. But I was some surprised at the brass flow forward with the lower pressure loads and light bullets with H-4198. I had been shooting a lot of brand new brass with the 225s and 69-70 gr of H-4198 and never lost a case, and pressures over 50000 PSI. But when I dropped to the 180 and 68/H-4198 pressures probably mid 40000 or so, then everyone of them showed head separation until I got to 72 gr H-4198 and pressures back up some. Strange things happen sometimes...??

The 500 MDM... Well, just a little lazy when forming and sizing brass. I think maybe I set that size die up a bit too and see what happens. This too is not so bad, lost those cases out of around 200 fired the last week or so. 6-8 cases total out of 200... Not terrible.

No man, will never ever even consider you in the same country as Shootaway, much less in the same thought process... No worries there for sure....... LOL.......

Hey, got my new rifle this week! 500 B&M.... 2.5 inch straight RUM case, long RUM action, short 18 inch barrel, light barrel contour, same as 50 B&M, lighter than heavy barrel contour of 500 MDM. No ghost shoulder, straight case like 50 B&M. Interesting.... Looking forward to playing with it. Have a major issue, there is no telling how long it will take Hornady to make a set of dies for it????? I have had 70 sets of various B&M dies on order for 9 MONTHS NOW...... And no one can tell us when they might be in???? In some cases, and some cartridges because of this we are now totally out of dies in some of the B&M cartridges, and its not our fault, we thought we were thinking ahead, we just did not realize Hornady had went from a 2 month schedule to a 9 month + whatever schedule?????????????????

Michael

RIP...

If you are still out there and paying attention, I wanted to show you a couple of things...

I just did a "Tech Support" page, on the B&M Website.. something I wanted to do for a long time, that basically just explains some of the bugs in new B&M rifles...

Well part of that page deals with the magazine spring jumping the hump in the bottom metal, as we have talked about before. So I was taking some photos to put on the website of some of my ugly fixes, you know, JB Welded mess, beat hell out of the spring and bottom metal with a punch, and such as that... I should not be allowed to have tools, especially tools that can destroy otherwise good stuff! Anyway......

I have a new 458 B&M for sale, and just popped open the bottom metal and noticed that Brian had applied a FIX for this gun.... Pretty neat.... He put a pin in it of some sort, no way that is going to move now....




Now, the biggest surprise that I have not paid one bit of attention to, is the NEW Winchester M70s out of South Carolina... They fixed it proper by new design bottom metal. Notice the sharp deep recess in the front, and damned if they didn't put tabs in the back. Spring will move some, but remains in the sweet spot and fluid for proper feeding.. This is on one of the 9.3s I had built......



Just FYI on something I noticed today........

Michael

Doc M, Professor Emeritus of Gunology,

Thanks for sharing the gunporn, in plumb gunecologically graphic detail, yet with redeeming social value, documenting the continuing technological improvements happening in SC.

I notice they have modified the follower also. Looks better, more solid, even from the side view only, underside must be improved also, eh?

You have contributed greatly to the field of gunology, much appreciated by all us lay riflecranks.

I can't pour you a Mason jar from over the internet, but I can post a naked Nikon pic or two. The big girl will have to go on a musket.
The petite one will be a nice backup on my .458 B&M M70SA with sub-20" barrel (19.75"): Great elephant hunting rig.







Nikon Buckmaster 1x20 Matte Nikoplex Scope (DISCONTINUED MODEL)

The Nikon Buckmaster 1x20 delivers amazing light transmission and a 20mm exit pupil for bright viewing at dawn, dusk or in poor weather. The Nikoplex reticle provides easy aiming and the low magnification creates a huge field of view. And it is legal in states where zero magnification is required.

The Nikon Buckmaster is famous among hunters – you simply won’t find a better combination of critical light transmission, must-have features, and rugged durability. With the Buckmasters riflescope family, there’s a perfect match for every hunter and every hunting style, whether it’s rifle, rimfire or blackpowder.

Long considered the standard hunting reticle, the plex design's heavy outer posts direct the eye toward the finer crosshairs at the reticle center for fast target acquisition.

Features:
Brightvue™ multicoating - Bright, multicoating optics deliver up to 92% light transmission.
Large exit pupils - Improved low light hunting at dawn or dusk, when the game is usually moving.
Quick focus eyepiece - Allows the shooter to instantly bring the reticle into sharp focus.
Waterproof, fogproof, shockproof - Nitrogen filled and O-ring sealed.
Precise, hand-turn 1/4-MOA click adjustments - Positive-click reticle adjustments get you zeroed-in quicker and maintain your setting even with heavy recoil.

Specifications:
Reticle: Nikoplex
Finish: Matte
Actual Magnification: 1x
Effective Objective Diameter: 20mm
Exit Pupil (mm): 20
Eye Relief (in.): 4.3-13.0 ............................. Like a scout scope, only better. Usable from 4.3" to 13" of eye relief.
FOV at 100 yds (ft.): 52.5**
Tube Diameter: 1 in.
Objective O.D. (mm/in): 25.4/1.0
Eyepiece O.D. (mm/in): 42.0/1.65
Length (in): 9.1
Weight (oz): 10.6
Adjustment Graduation (1 click): 1/2 MOA
Max. Internal Adjustment: 80 MOA
Parallax setting (yds): 75 **FOV @ 75 yds (ft.)

RIP....
That tiny little 1X20 is rather interesting..... I am not sure if I have seen that or not?

I can think of a few things that might be handy for.......

Michael

I had almost forgotten how handsome a fixed power scope can be. That little 1x20 is just beautiful!

NEW .500 Caliber..........

Finally got the 500 B&M rifle last week.... Let me explain..... This is a Long Winchester RUM action, it has the lighter 50 B&M barrel contour, 18 inches. The cartridge is a 2.5 inch RUM case, so in between the 500 MDM at 2.8 and the 50 B&M at 2.25. Now one asks "WHY"... Basically, Because I can and wanted to. Sure, the 500 MDM and 50 B&M take care of everything and anything, and both have done so from Elephant on down. Me, I just wanted to do something different is all. Advantages? A few, I elected to go with a straight case, like the 50 B&M. 50 B&M is such a easy loader, no brass issues, no case stretch, no nothing, and in these guns works like a charm, after many 1000s of rounds fired, zero issues. Hoping the 500 B&M will do the same we will see. Being 2.5 inches, and a 3.6 inch magazine, this leaves room to use the full nose projection BBW#13 Safari Raptors... WITH TALON TIP installed, and work through the magazine.... So even if I fall short of the 500 MDM by a 100 or so feet per second, I can still hit harder at 50 Yards than the 500 MDM with the same bullet, by using that Talon Tip. A rather nice little advantage with the HP Raptors.

Having the lighter barrel contour of the 50 B&M makes it a lighter gun, along the same weight as a 50 B&M depending on the wood. It currently resides in one of the CHEAP and totally useless plastic stocks from Winchester, we don't have anything else to put it in. It leaves today to Accurate Innovations, and Wes will be making measurements for a new AI stock for it. When I return from Australia, he will have those measurements he needs, send the rifle back, and I will put it in a 500 MDM stock to start shooting until the new stock is finished. Thanks to Sam for making a size die for me, I don't even have to wait 6-9 months for Hornady dies.. I figure the rifle should come in at 8 lbs with the new stock. Stock will be for long action, but standard B&M specs, which means it has been shortened to look proper on an 18 inch gun, and barrel channel to fit the 50 B&M contour. I think its going to be very neat.......










I am rather excited about it........

Michael

Michael,
I've been waiting for you to unveil the 500 B&M One of my Winchester 300 RUM's will be heading to SSK, I think it's a better choice than a 500 MDM.

The rifle I'am going to use is blued-wood stocked, I don't think the factory wood stock will hold up to the recoil of a 500 B&M ?

I noticed that the caliber designation looks like it was stamped not engraved, did SSK change to stamped ?

Coyote....

I think its going to be an interesting cartridge when all said and done. It will be more than the 50 B&M, but weigh in and be very close to the same size as the 50. So you have some room in that magazine to work with. 500 MDM is still a small gun for what it is capable of, but even at 19-20 inches, add a scope, and one of those come in at 9-9.5 lbs. I can tell the difference carrying a 500 MDM as compared to a standard B&M, even though it may only be 1-1.5 lbs, and an inch or two. The 500 MDM good as it is, it can be a little hateful making brass... Always easier to go down, than to go up.
Being completely straight, no ghost shoulder, then I think it will load and work as easy as the 50 B&M too.... We will see....

Yes, sometimes on that gunkote finish, Brian actually stamps it somehow. I like the stamping better than the engraved. But its not a standard thing and they have not changed the other engraving....

You are correct on the stock. We would bust the crap out of anything but the AI stocks I believe. Damn, I did not manage to get the rifle out today, have to get it out tomorrow......

Michael

Very nice Michael, glad to see the 500 B&M finally hit the compound.

I’ll have to send you a box, or so, of the .500 CEB 430gr MTH copper spitzer bullets to shoot from your new rifle, they ought to work from the magazine with that combo. Then you’ll have a few options to use; Safari Raptor with Safari Solid (both machined brass) or CEB MTH with NF FPS (both machined copper).

I think the perfect M70 to house the 500 B&M is the M70 Extreme Weather Stainless, with the Bell and Carlson stock (with full-length aluminum bedding block) - factory chambered in either 25-06 Remington or 270 Winchester. Slightly more work to the rifle; open bolt face, replace the magazine box with the RUM box, but it’ll allow Brian to properly tweak the rail angles for perfect feeding of the straight 2.5” RUM case – plus they’ve greater availability (including new SC rifles) than the M70 RUM which can be kept aside for the full-length 500 MDM cartridge…

And - in case I'm offline for some reason (or flat just forget before hand) here's an early - Have a safe and productive hunting trip Michael!!!

Yeah Cappy, I think its gonna do very well this 500 B&M.... It will sure work in the magazine with most any of the pointy bullets that have come down the line the last couple of years.

I think the M70s that house the smaller 06 cartridges would never work proper in the magazine. Just too narrow for that big fat RUM case.......

But I have a plan (no, I did not say "I have a Dream), I said "I have a Plan"... HEH........

I have two Montana RUM actions that I should have here when I return... Actually one is a "LEFT" hand Montana RUM action. Its just a new Winchester as far as I am concerned, so I think I will approve of it, when thought of in that light. Currently that is a better option than trying to find a Win RUM gun, which I have not looked in quite awhile for any Win M70 RUM rifles, I have 7 Win M70 RUM rifles on the rack ready to build now. I can't wait to see how the Montana RUMs look and work.

Michael

Fellas I just want to take another moment to sing the praises of the little super short rifles. Mine is a slight bit different from the standard super short, but only in theory, not really much in the real world. I have WSM action rather than a WSSM and am using rem ultra brass instead of winc wsm. It was an experiment that we are not done with.
Point is though they are just such wonderfully fun rifles to shoot. And carry all day, freaking awesome. I just returned form 10 day hunt in Zim. After the ele and buff were down this is all I carried. so small and light. Shooting a 250 grain non con it smoked my hyena from front to back. Of course all blade existed on the impala. Zebra went about 40 yds after a double lung with no heart, and wildebeest went straight down on a high heart/lung shot.
If you do not own one of these I can not tell you how much you are missing out, you need to "make a plan" and get one.

New 500!? While I know you get bored and are more freaking inquisitive than a mouse, you just simply can not better the 500 MDM!! Too late for me to be thinking of switching now, I truly love this rifle I stole from you I have had quite a number of custom built rifles over my days, but this 500 MDM was made for me without a doubt. Question is what were you doing with my rifle all that time?? Even taking it hunting for crying out loud.

quote:

Fellas I just want to take another moment to sing the praises of the little super short rifles. Mine is a slight bit different from the standard super short, but only in theory, not really much in the real world. I have WSM action rather than a WSSM and am using rem ultra brass instead of winc wsm. It was an experiment that we are not done with.

Brent is correct, you simply must lay hands on one to understand how easy these guns are to work with. We first started with this rifle in the standard 458 Super Short based on the 1.65 inch WSM case. We thought we were going to get more than what we did, but we did not. I can't figure why I did not think of it before we started, but we should have chambered this rifle with the 2 inch RUM 458 case, or the 458 B&M SA.. Which I had that done to it. Well, currently the chamber is a little too tight, and Brent was supposed to send it back to Brian to polish and loosen it up a bit, but he did not. When we had it here it was not reaching its full potential in my opinion because of this. I think it has potential beyond what we have done with it so far. With the severe shortage now of the WSSM actions, this may be the way to go in the future. Control feed Win M70s WSSMs are hard to come by, and getting somewhat expensive. With the 458 B&M SA, one has enough room in the magazine of a WSM action to run Talon Tips on most all the lighter 458 bullets we have from CEB.... A 125-150 fps advantage at 50 yard impacts, and work through the magazine..... We just need to sort a few bugs out of this particular gun to gain its full potential I think.....

All Blades Exited on broadside Impala, with the 250 #13 HP.... This was something I wanted to study when I was there in July, and I thought that the blades might exit, but never got the chance to find out! Good Show....

quote:

New 500!? While I know you get bored and are more freaking inquisitive than a mouse, you just simply can not better the 500 MDM!!

What can I say? Right on all counts... Yes, there is a new 500 B&M, but not a replacement for the mighty 500 MDM by any stretch. Like your 458 B&M SA, its a new experiment. Primary, Talon Tips on even the longest nose projection #13 HPs, and work in the magazine. 2.5 inch RUM case, and it cannot churn the power of the 500 MDM, but it can be a really beefed up 50 B&M, in almost exactly the same package, maybe an inch longer at the max. Whatever that 3.6 inch action is as opposed to the WSM action is the extra length, and I don't know what that is just off top of my head. It will come in some lighter than the 500 MDM mainly because of the lighter barrel contour. The 500 MDM is like .820 at the muzzle, the 500 B&M at .785 or so....

quote:

I truly love this rifle I stole from you I have had quite a number of custom built rifles over my days, but this 500 MDM was made for me without a doubt. Question is what were you doing with my rifle all that time?? Even taking it hunting for crying out loud.

Your rifle my ass! That was my damned rifle! And yes, you did steal it, I am glad you finally fessed up to that! From the day you took that rifle with you, I have been trying to replace it. I have now taken TWO of the 3 500 MDMs I have, and shortened both from 21 to 19 inches, same as your gun. I even took my English/Stainless one, that I used with such success in 2011, and shortened that barrel to 19 as well! That one is still HEAVY, about 8.5 lbs, because of that heavy English wood! But it is shorter, and handles better.

I am really enjoying the Mrytle Gun. It was 21 inches, hi polish blue, AI stock that was done in South Dakota, not by the boys in NC, this was before Wes took over AI. This myrtle turned an ugly orange brown, and was so ugly, I did not want to even look at it. When Wes was here back last december, he took it with him and refinished it and had it hand checkered. Shortened the tip, and stock. During this time, I sent it to Brian, and he shortened the barrel to 19 inches, and I had the rifle refinished in black matte gunkote, becoming my favorite finish right now. I am very pleased with this gun. This gun was the #1 500 MDM, first one made, and the one that busted a few stocks before I had the AI stock made. It is going with me today on its second trip to Australia for buffalo. 500 MDM is very impressive, but like all the B&Ms its a package deal, not the cartridge in and of itself, its the cartridge, platform, and the bullet combination that brings it all together. I have more powerful rifles and cartridges, 510 Wells for instance, but that bitch has a 24 inch barrel, weighs 11 lbs, and I would not take it further than the shooting range for test work, much less have to tote that beast in the bush... Never happen!

I may bitch and complain about the 500 MDM from time to time because its not as easy to load as most of the other B&M cartridges, but none the less, it is a hammer of a cartridge, caliber, on the platform, or rifle that it was designed for. It exceeds anything I have ever carried in the bush, and its no wonder that Andrew Schoeman in Africa, and Paul Truccolo in Australia have chosen the 500 MDM as their backup rifles, both of them have seen the 500 MDM do its intended job many many times over. Andrew has seen it down elephant, smash buffalo and many other things, Paul has seen it absolutely put Australian buff in the dirt, even the big bruiser bulls. Even now I am helping a PH in Zimbabwe get his 500 MDM by next hunting season. It works, and everyone that has been around it knows what it is.....

I like this gun alot, and look forward to working with it in it's new configuration.......



Michael

quote:

I truly love this rifle I stole from you I have had quite a number of custom built rifles over my days, but this 500 MDM was made for me without a doubt. Question is what were you doing with my rifle all that time?? Even taking it hunting for crying out loud.

And I just found Brent's "Hunting Report" upstairs as well........ Very Excellent buddy.... I look very much forward to your visit in a few weeks after I return.....

Everyone go up and take a look at the Hunting Report... With great photos..

http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/4351065291


Here is Brents 500 MDM... He STOLE from me! Was my damned gun!

quote:

cnm123
one of us
posted Aug 26, 2013 10:22 AM Hide Post
Leaving Wednesday for 3weeks with SSG in Zimbabwe after Elephant and multiple Buffalo
Looking forward to using my 50 B&M with North Fork solids and CEB safari raptors
Thanks to Michael,Brian at SSK and Ken at Ceb for helping me sort out my rifle and this thread for all the great information
Will post my report when I get back
Chris

We still have a B&M family member in the field. According to my calculations, 3 weeks is TODAY.....

We are always thoughtful of our B&M family members when they are in the field. We are hoping they are safe, and that they are successful in their endeavors. We are hoping they shoot straight, and that the gods are working with them to keep good luck on their side. No matter how much we might try, sometimes things happen in the field that we cannot account for. Sometimes a stick gets in our way, other times it is something else. We can hone our skills, we can make sure our equipment is ready, we can prepare for every contingency conceivable, but the field tends to throw things at us that we can't account for always. So, we are always thoughtful of our family members when they are in the field.

I was hoping to hear of Chris before leaving today, but as time ticks down, in about 3.5 hours from now, I will be out of touch for two weeks myself. Chris has a tendency to break things, the only man I know that can break more things than I can. Chris, we are hoping for a safe return, and stories of great success.......................

Michael

michael you be safe as well, no bugs in the bed! Check out the new area as Dana is still keen to go over and meet the "local" doctors. Shoot straight and keep your powder dry.

After seeing the 500MDM work on the ele, giraffe, and buff, Terry Anders is now another Zimbo keen on getting one. Good for me as I can just stock pile ammo up there!

I made up a dummy 500 B&M round from some 7mm RUM brass I had that I use for my 50 B&M.

I annealed it after trimming, necked it up and ran it through my 50 B&M die to iron out the kinks in the neck, trimmed to length. I seated a North Fork 50cal 450gr FPS and tried it in my 375/404 JS.

This rifle was built by Rusty Magee on a M70 300WM with an Ultra Mag follower/ magazine box and no rail work. He opened up the bolt face just a little for the 404 case.

The dummy round fed and ejected from both the right-hand and left-hand sides of the action just as nice and slick as you please , very nice.

I realize this is just a sample of one, but it appears that a standard M70 with a magnum bolt face is a viable donor action to build one of these on. The M70 All Weather rifle has the added advantage of using the Bell & Carlson stock with the full length aluminum bedding chassis.

quote:

Originally posted by Head Trauma:
I made up a dummy 500 B&M round from some 7mm RUM brass I had that I use for my 50 B&M.

I annealed it after trimming, necked it up and ran it through my 50 B&M die to iron out the kinks in the neck, trimmed to length. I seated a North Fork 50cal 450gr FPS and tried it in my 375/404 JS.

This rifle was built by Rusty Magee on a M70 300WM with an Ultra Mag follower/ magazine box and no rail work. He opened up the bolt face just a little for the 404 case.

The dummy round fed and ejected from both the right-hand and left-hand sides of the action just as nice and slick as you please , very nice.

I realize this is just a sample of one, but it appears that a standard M70 with a magnum bolt face is a viable donor action to build one of these on. The M70 All Weather rifle has the added advantage of using the Bell & Carlson stock with the full length aluminum bedding chassis.

That is very good to know!

As all of you know, I have returned from Australia, and everything was a great success. Using my favorite 416 B&M.. Little tiny 18 inch gun, weighs a bit over 7 lbs with a 2X7 Nikon, it was great to work with. It did a credible job with the light 225 #13 HPs I was working with, just a tad under 2900 fps. The 300 ESP Raptor did excellent on buffalo, both tipped and solid..... Shot two pigs with the 225s and it destroyed the pigs on the spot. While I am not a great fan of 416 caliber, I really love this little gun, and think its great for anything thin skinned.

The mighty 500 MDM Myrtle gun did great as well, especially considering I used mostly 335s, 350s, 365 Raptors at 2600-2700 fps. Gun handled great, had tiny issue with loading 4 and the extractor snapping over the 1st round loaded manually. Extractor just a tiny bit too loose and a couple of times did not snap over the rim. A slight push on the extractor side with my finger made it click over the couple of times it did not. I believe a simple little bend will tighten that up, if I don't break it....

In all cases I loaded 3 down, and inserted 4th in the tube, both guns ran perfect with that........ And believe me, I used all 4 nearly every time... I do like to put bullet to flesh.............

But that is not why I am on this thread this morning at all. I want to show you the latest B&M rifle that I have added to my racks....

Many years ago, 1999 in fact, Ruger had it's 50th Anniversary. They came out with an absolutely gorgeous little light Ruger #1 in 45/70. Well, I do have an affection for single shots, and a #1 is one of them, while I personally like a 1885 better, I do love a #1 as well. But only larger bores, small bores I care nothing for at all, in fact, don't even look at them if bore size goes under 416. I had to have one of these little guns. So I picked one up, don't remember how or where, but it has been put away for years and never fired. Not that I care about shooting it, I just never really had a reason to mess with it. And since 2005 been so tied up with all the B&Ms I never give it much thought until earlier this year I believe. I had an 1885 and this #1 sitting around doing nothing in 45/70, and figured I would make something real out of them, perfect candidate, 50 B&M Alaskan............. So both went off to Brian to convert.......

Received the 1885 actually some time ago, and we are still having issues with it. These new model 1885s have some problems with the hammer following, and now on it's second return back to SSK to see if Brian can sort it out. I actually had an AD on the range with it because of this before leaving for Australia... Not good!

This week, the little Ruger #1 made it back home. With it's 20 inch barrel it is tiny, and incredibly handy, weighing in at 6.5 lbs................ I had Brian mount a special T'SOB rail just in front of the receiver, and have now installed a XS Ghost ring in the rear slot. Later I will put a scope on it and start seeing how far I can take the 50 B&M AK in a #1. It really turned out great.











Michael

Michael

finally received the 225 gr safari's for my 416 and found some(8lbs) of H-4198.

my question is-you are showing 70 grs H-4198 as a top load, is that also an accuracy load?

The week after Thanksgiving I am going on a cropping shoot for Axis -8-head and unlimited hogs so want to test PG loads---promise report and pics. I am gonna put a 3x9 on the 416 and am wondering, as I said, if you had found a specific accuracy load.

In the 350-325 BBW#13 combo -in my rifle- the max loads were the most accurate--is that a CEB/BBW#13 characteristic?

SSR

Sean.....

I used 69/H-4198 in Australia, gives me 2850 or so in that 18 inch gun. I actually slowed it down a bit so I could match closer POI with 300 ESP Raptor.

Just the last couple of days I was helping Lou set up his 416 B&M with the 225s and used 70/RL 7 with good results, Sam also used RL 7 in his with good results.

Either H-4198 or RL 7 will give you one hole groups at 50 yds, every load I have used...

I helped Lou set up his 416 B&M and 50 B&M for upcoming trip to Zim... He is using the 416 for possible leopard, hyena, anything thin, and I talked him into using it for croc as well.... All with the 225 Raptors.......

I think about any load you pick should shoot one hole.........

M

Michael

hehehe tell him the 416 works great on buff and elle also---just ask me--



SSR

PS found a nice M-70 300 RUM for $950--is that decent price for donor rifle?

Sean

Yep, $950 is not bad on those Win M70 RUM guns. I have bought several myself in that same price range, and even a tad more......

I have two Montana RUM actions ordered, one has been sent, still with my FFL guy, the other has not been sent yet. New Montana RUMs are cheaper than the Win M70 by a $100 or so. I have one left hand and right hand action on the way, just to check out and see how they are....

Wes at Accurate Innovations has my 500 B&M Stock in the works, maybe 2-3 weeks it will be finished. Set the rifle up today in a 500 MDM AI Stock, barrel channel is of course too big, but everything else fits, I hope to be shooting this week soon......... Will probably hook up a strain gage and go ahead and do pressures too........

With this 225 gr Raptor in 416, I will never carry anything less than 416 to the field again for anything... Maybe rats I will shoot 223... But everything else, 416 +

M

Michael

Now how did you know I was thinking about the new 500 B&M when I asked about a RUM action?

Hmm have heard good and bad about the Montana action--great design but sometimes rough manufacturing. Hope for the best, but we know what the Winchester RUM actions are---now you are making me think------NO fair---

Sean do your self a favor and never log onto this sub forum again!!! Conversation like you are having with the evel Dr will only serve to drain your bank account. Soon you will justifying a need for each of the B&M cartridges and wearing b&M clothing and caps. Run man run!!

Brent--

I am the texas B&M connection--lol already lost a wife and a ranch---

but have some neat monogramed B&M shirts---

Brent... You see, Sean Knows what his priorities are, get with the program Pal....


Well I got an excellent start on 500 B&M Load Data early this morning......

I was on the range at 6:30 am this morning, Using PT 1 I fired two different loads, twice, with the 450 #13 Solids, using IMR 8208 and H-322 to begin with. In both cases on PT 1 I got 41000 PSI and 2150 fps with IMR 8208 and 49000 PSI and 2200 fps with H-322.

I took this over to PT 2 for calibration, and was able to match those numbers, and I actually added 500 PSI to it just for the hell of it, and going beyond normal safe practices a bit.....

PT 2 is up and running, and numbers look great, I am very satisfied with the results thus far.

Running these 450 #13 Solids out now with the following powders, all giving excellent results so far... IMR 8208, H-322, TAC, X-Terminator, and RL 10X. I tried these in the beginning IMR 4198 and H-4198 did not care for how they behaved, but not over a PT yet. Tried RL 15 and it is just way too slow, only giving around 1850 fps with 85 grs. Case won't hold much more than 92-95 compressed with this bullet... So no way to get velocity up. The first 5 powders look very promising and I am pretty sure can reach peak velocity of what the cartridge is going to be capable of with those powders. Remember, this is an 18 inch tube............. Currently at 2220 fps and got 15000 PSI to go.............

I might even do some more in the morning....... I love doing pressure data........ Extremely interesting to watch.....

Michael

Steady up there Mike, your getting dangerously close to MDM territory !

quote:

Using PT 1 I fired two different loads, twice, with the 450 #13 Solids, using IMR 8208 and H-322 to begin with. In both cases on PT 1 I got 41000 PSI and 2150 fps with IMR 8208 and 49000 PSI and 2200 fps with H-322.

Hey Michael,

I've modeled a 450gr .500 Safari Solid and the 500 B&M in QuickDESIGN and am working to model your loadings in QuickLOAD. Could you share the amount of powder used in your 8208 and 322 loadings please? Just trying to keep on top of things and play some 'what ifs'.

Thanks,

Looks like Norma 200 works well with the 450gr Safari Solid, at least simulated in QL in a 'non-fine tuned setting'...
- 78.0grs, 95.7 Fill, 100% burn, 2278 fps & 5187 ft-lbs @ 54250 psi.
- 82.0grs, 100.6 Fill, 100% burn, 2384 fps & 5680 ft-lbs @ 64481 psi.

quote:

Originally posted by capoward:

quote:

Using PT 1 I fired two different loads, twice, with the 450 #13 Solids, using IMR 8208 and H-322 to begin with. In both cases on PT 1 I got 41000 PSI and 2150 fps with IMR 8208 and 49000 PSI and 2200 fps with H-322.

Hey Michael,

I've modeled a 450gr .500 Safari Solid and the 500 B&M in QuickDESIGN and am working to model your loadings in QuickLOAD. Could you share the amount of powder used in your 8208 and 322 loadings please? Just trying to keep on top of things and play some 'what ifs'.

Thanks,

Cappy See how these play out on your QUickLoad program......... Most of these are starting points and 1st Generation loads. I have loaded already 2cd Gen loads to test, which I might do this morning....... Case Capacity is reaching max and serious compression, depending on powder, 91-95 grs....... Some of these powders won't make full potential.

450 #13 Solid
85/IMR 8208.......2152 fps 41799 PSI
88/IMR 8208.......2220 fps 45511 PSI

80/H-322..........2204 fps 49299 PSI
85/TAC............2219 fps 51367 PSI
80/X-Term.........2183 fps 48456 PSI
75/RL 10X.........2123 fps 45390 PSI

I have went up 3 grs on everything to see where we are on 2cd Gen Loads. I also have now a few loads with 500 #13 Solid for 1st Generation to try. Of course some things can expedite because of knowing where some of the 450s are.

Of course these are powders I have on hand for other B&Ms and MDM...... no Norma 200 on hand.... Normally ball powders such as TAC and X-Term don't do so well in these near straight .500s, such as the 500 MDM, and 50 B&M.. But they are looking pretty good in this 2.5 inch case. I tell you, it is so interesting to study these things. Neither the best powder for the 50 B&M nor the best for 500 MDM are going to be the best in the 500 B&M.....

Michael

So far it's not playing well in QL either - reckon some further tweaking of specifics are needed.

Case:
Any chance of identifying the overflow water capacity of a fired case after you've resized it for loading?
And your 'trim to length'

Bullet:
If I recollect correctly, the 450gr .500 Safari Solid has the longer seated bullet projection? Something like 0.778" from center of the upper seating groove to the meplat?

Thanks,

Jim

105 gr water Capacity.... 2.495..... 450 #13 Solid 1.188 Length... .480 in the case.....

Shot 3 generations forward this morning... PT 2 is on the blink.... Calling Oehler in the morning....

94/IMR 8208.....2369 fps 53443 PSI
88/H-322........2355 fps 55635 PSI
92/TAC..........2309 fps 52823 PSI
88/X-Terminator.2315 fps 52524 PSI
83/RL 10X.......2302 fps 52553 PSI
74/IMR 4198.....2241 fps 52895 PSI

500 #13 Solid...
72/IMR 4198.....2162 fps 59046 PSI
87/IMR 8208.....2220 fps 55723 PSI
83/H-322........2214 fps 58292 PSI

Michael

Thanks for the specifications.
I'm running into the 'straight case' issue with my QL. I can get within 5psi/5fps for a single loading but it won't hold that tolerance when switching powders. I'll have to put some thought into this tomorrow...

New Toy on the way..... Oehler System 83 does Pressures, and a lot more, but I did not get chrono or acoustic target options right now... just the System 83 to do pressures..........

Awesome. Will be interesting to see how it compares to PT1 performance wise...