The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Rifles Big Bores 416-458-50 SS-50 B&M Series Cartridges/RiflesGo | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
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Handloaders around the globe have learned much from MIB experiments.  That is why the 400 Whelen-B has a new brass maximum length specification per RIP.  The 400 Whelen-B headspaces on shoulder, extractor, and case mouth: Double backup.  | |||
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Horrible accuracy might have something to do with a +0.950" parallel-sided two-stage freebore (0.600" @ .522" followed by .350" @ .501" and short bullets - not a good combination... Jim  "Life's hard; it's harder if you're stupid" John Wayne | |||
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tanks....my 50 B&B SS has a plastic stock straight comb easy to shoot right or left just the bolt is on the right side...its also a WSSM action... I think only Browning made left hand WSSM guns | |||
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Figured, I'd put my reply here. SSK is building a 500MDM and 416B&M for me (ready in 3 weeks  ). The "standard" barrel for these calibers are actually different manufacturers, Shilen and Douglas I believe.So, as Coyote Wacker said in the other thread call Brian at SSK and ask. I'd also recommend getting Accurate Innovations to build your stock for it. Those guys are a joy to work with and sensitive to scheduling requirements. | |||
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I'm not sure which manufacturer SSK uses below the .500 caliber - but unless they've changed manufacturers PacNor supplies the .500 caliber barrels. Reason I know that is that Michael spoke to Brian for me to identify the barrel profile and manufacturer used on the 500 MDM. Afterwards I ordered one of their Super Match grade 8-groove 1:12" twist CM barrels (still have it uncut). I later ordered a a Super Match grade with 3-groove 1:9" twist CM barrel which I used in my Mauser build. Jim "Life's hard; it's harder if you're stupid" John Wayne | |||
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Saw you were selling it. What's the mag capacity for the 50B&M SS in your Winchester? And what's the recoil like? I've never shot one. Thanks. "Only accurate rifles are interesting." | |||
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How is that 3-groove working out for you? 9" twist! That's a pretty snug twist. I've often wanted to play with fast twist barrels and see how it affects penetration with solids. Sent from my iPhone | |||
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If I recall correctly both my 416 B&M and my 458 B&M SS have Douglas match grade barrels. "The rule is perfect: in all matters of opinion our adversaries are insane." Mark Twain TANSTAAFL www.savannagems.com A unique way to own a piece of Africa. DSC Life NRA Life | |||
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Yep. Now, I remember. It is PacNor for .500 and Douglas for the 416B&M. It was Shilen for my McMillan rifles. | |||
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The cartridge used is a .500/338 Lapua Magnum wildcat which has a bit more capacity than the 500 MDM. The rifle is raw metal finish right now but the few stock fitting issues will be finished shortly and load workup (although RIP – the cartridge originator – has a treasure trove of loading information posted on the AR Forums and AmmoGuide Interactive) will be accomplished in July. Regarding the ‘snug twist’… RIP uses a 12” twist in his .500/338 Lapua Magnum rifle; Michael uses the same in all but the very early .500 caliber B&M & MDM rifles. I don’t believe there’ll be any stability issues with the 9” twist and 430gr or heavier weight monometal bullets and the 350gr and 400gr ESP Raptors love higher twist rates so again no perceived problems. Traditionally faster twist rates are a bit slower velocity wise than slower twist rates – but 3-groove barrels are traditionally faster than 5+ groove barrels so perhaps I’ll see a wash velocity wise. But we’ll see, I already know the accuracy and velocity RIP’s rifle delivers – which is superb w/24” barrel (as opposed to my 21 ½” barrel)… Excerpt from: Cutting Edge Bullets: 49-Bore/.500-Caliber/.338LM Improved of 2010 ... 12.7x68Magnum http://forums.accuratereloadin...043/m/5931027531/p/7
Regarding the ‘penetration of solids’… I’ve already made a deal with Michael to send my rifle with loaded ammo (my accurate loads) to the lab for pressure and velocity testing - timeframe TBD by Michael. There’ll be a sufficient amount of ammo to also run solids at my velocities and velocities matching the various .500 caliber B&Ms to determine what impact, if any, the 9” twist will have on within-mass straight-line penetration and stability. Jim "Life's hard; it's harder if you're stupid" John Wayne | |||
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Nick....You can put 3 in the mag plus 1 down the tube....recoil about like a 30-06 with 180 gr. bullets. | |||
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I will be very interested to see the results. I seem to recall Michael testing a two different 416's and he made note that the one with the faster twist, was getting better penetration. I believe this was pre #13 profile projectiles. I'd often wanted to experiment with different twists to see if the twist rate did have an effect. Bartlein offers "gain twist" rifling, it which you could have a barrel start with a twist rate of 1:30 at the throat and end up at 1:7 at the muzzle. They can do any combo you want. This would help combat the velocity loss and pressure increases that can become present with a tighter twist. Lower pressure spikes too maybe? I dunno. I wouldn't think over stabilization would be an issue unless the bullet has excessive run-out(i.e. out of balance). Hmm, I'm feeling inspired to get going on my 458 B&M build... Sent from my iPhone | |||
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Templar IIRC the difference was in stabilizing the 400 gr bullets. They are much longer, the 350s stabilize great in a 1-14. The 416 1-12 stabilized bothy bullets. The take away is these new 4th gen bullets require some different thinking. Monometals are longer than traditional bullets- this requires either a faster twist or----as I contend, you get the same results with a lighter bullet. Sectional density and some other old parameters are no long the same. The above, coupled with what Michael, CAPO , RIP et al; have done with the nose stabilization and fragmentation of the BBW #13 series bullets has truly changed the game( pun intended) All that being said--if I were building another 416 B&M I would go with the 1-12 twist instead of the 1-14. "The rule is perfect: in all matters of opinion our adversaries are insane." Mark Twain TANSTAAFL www.savannagems.com A unique way to own a piece of Africa. DSC Life NRA Life | |||
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I just checked the status of my orders with SSK, and verified the twists while I was at it. 500MDM is 1:12, and 416B&M is 1:14. Now, Michael has been testing and using heavier bullets on all of his B&Ms and I would surmise the 400gr bullets in the 416 do stabilize in 1:14 seeing that is the standard. Otherwise, I would have expected him to change it to 1:12 for the builds. | |||
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Way back in "Terminals" Michael said that 14" marginally worked in 416 but that 12" was better. +-+-+-+-+-+-+ "A well-rounded hunting battery might include: 500 AccRel Nyati, 416 Rigby or 416 Ruger, 375Ruger or 338WM, 308 or 270, 243, 223" -- Conserving creation, hunting the harvest. | |||
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Interesting... I thought Michael was going to talk to Brian about moving to 1:12" twist for the .416 and .458 B&Ms. I believe the .470 B&M is using the Capstick standard 1:10" twist rate. There's no way a 1:10" twist rate is going to overspin a .416 or .458 caliber rifle bullet, even the cheap non-bonded C&C bullets, at B&M cartridge velocities so really zero reason to not adopt even a 1:10" twist for the .416 and .458 calibers. The PacNor #5 Sporter is equivalent of the Shilen #5 Lightweight Varmint contour and PacNor offers a 10" twist rate in both .416 and .458 calibers. Costs are very similar as well. Jim "Life's hard; it's harder if you're stupid" John Wayne | |||
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Good Morning guys, from Pretoria. We have made it back to the RSA now from a very successful trip to Zimbabwe. I won't go into such detail here, but suffice it to say, the 475 B&M Super Short really showed off on this trip in the hands of my son Mark David......... I personally did not do much shooting at all, in fact, 4 rounds total, 2 sighters, and 2 rounds on a cow buffalo with the 500 B&M is it. This turned out to be Mark Davids Safari with his 475 B&M Super Short in which he took hippo, a real B&M Buffalo, and to top it all off, Elephant..... More detail on this in the terminal thread concerning bullet performance, which exceeds anything one could imagine, as long as my internet stays up anyway......... Now, for the pressing matter of twist rates, and in particular the 416s....... As noted already, all of the .500s are 1:12 PacNor Barrels. This was done very early on as the older 1:18 twist rates were just not doing what I wanted and WE all needed with terminal performance of bullets we had on hand in 2006-2007 for .500 caliber. Much of that has changed now of course, but 1:12 is and will remain standard on all the .500s........ The 458 B&Ms are 1:14, and have been from day one. With the various proper designed bullets we use in the 458 B&Ms 1:14 has never ever been any issue, so I never saw a real need to change anything. We have never had a proper designed solid drive off course at 1:14. 1:12 or faster will not hurt anything of course............. From all the terminals I have done 458 is the breaking point at which a proper designed solid will come very close to self stabilization regardless of twist rate, as we see excellent terminal performance in .458 in nearly all cartridges and rifles designed to shoot .458 caliber, and we are talking CEB #13s, North Fork Solids, and the older barnes FN as well...... Each of these having a proper meplat size to stabilize. .416 is another matter, even with a proper designed solid, if twist rate is not fast enough, bullets will loose stability. I believe we enter a slightly different set of rules now at .416, and the actual size of the meplat, regardless of percentage of caliber, comes to play. Specifically concerning the 416 B&Ms, they have been and unless requested are 1:14 twist rates. In 2011 Sam and I did tests with 416 B&Ms, his rifle being a 1:12 twist, and mine of course 1:14 twist rate. Using the 400 gr BBW#13 Solid, 67% Meplat, velocity 2270-2280 fps in both rifles, the 1:14 managed 65-68 inches total penetration. The 65 inch penetration was 2.5 inches off course and started moving at 60 inches. The 68 inch penetration was dead straight. This told us that 1:14 was very very close with this bullet. Sam's 1:12 twist rate barrel gave 69 inches dead straight in the tests. None going off course at all, so with a 400 #13 there is no doubt 1:12 is better than 1:14. There was discussion between Brian and I at that time concerning this matter. In the end, I did not make a major change to 1:12 for the following reasons. 1. Case capacity of the 416 B&M is more suited to the 350 #13 Solid, and the 370 North Fork, both dead stable during terminals with the 1:14 twist rates. Being able to be driven to 2450 fps in 20 inches of barrel these would penetrate to 61-65 inches. The older nose profile of the North Forks would drive to 56 inches at 2370 fps. Both providing more than enough penetration for any mission asked of them, and on top of that, more velocity for hitting hard up front. While I have not tested the new 370 North Fork with the New Profile and 68% meplat, I have no doubt at all that this bullet at 2350 fps or so will drive to well beyond 60 inches dead straight, and hit hard up front as well. 2. Even with the 400 #13 Solid in 1:14 at 60 inches + being stable, it is still more than enough penetration to accomplish any mission asked of it. In the field you would never have a problem with this, bullet would be long out of the animal before then under most any normal circumstance, with the exception of rear enders on the heavies, and even then the bullet is going to do and make it to where it needs to be. At 60 inches, ADD 35% penetration to that as a "Rule Of Thumb" in animal tissue..... I freely admit, that my opinion and goals for the 416 B&M did influence the decision not to change to 1:12. With the advances made in bullet tech over the last few years, and taking into account the capabilities of the 416 B&M with the 350 #13s and 370 North Forks, I just did not see a big reason for concerns. I would also recommend that if ones objectives with the 416 B&M are 400 gr bullets, then 1:12 is for sure the way to play that game, and would not be a really big hairy deal to do. I know SSK keeps barrels on hand for all the B&Ms, as much as possible, but I don't think 1:12 is hard to come by....... I strongly suspect one would encounter these same issues with lesser calibers as well, but I think most lesser calibers come with faster twist rates to begin with. Many 416s other than the B&Ms come with 1:16 twist rates or maybe even slower, now there is a real issue with trying to stabilize 400s of any design. If one does not change that barrel out, then you best be shooting the 350-370s. I am no history buff with firearms, but these old time twist rates should be done away with in todays tech. I have worked with 1:10 in .474, and zero issues there, so in the larger calibers, .458+ anything from 1:10-1:14 is dandy. I suppose if one wanted to increase the performance of less than desirable designs of other solids, a faster twist rate would lend some assistance, but I have zero intentions of ever using less than desirable designs for any field work, so that does not enter the equation with me. We know for a fact that with less than desirable meplat sizes that faster twist rates and both velocity increase straight line performance, we have done this several times, but with the availability of proper designs from CEB and North Fork, there is just no point to it in cases of .458 or larger. M http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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Congratulations to Mark David on what sounds like a super Safari With the penetration of my 458 SS I am sure the 475 did a bang-up job on elle- Just don't know how Mark David stole Michaels quota----- 416 B&M-2012- I got length of buffalo penetration with the BBW#13 solid and a 1-14 twist--entered at tail-head, broke pelvis, broke backbone in withers and ended up in skin in the neck---good enough for me "The rule is perfect: in all matters of opinion our adversaries are insane." Mark Twain TANSTAAFL www.savannagems.com A unique way to own a piece of Africa. DSC Life NRA Life | |||
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Michael congradulations to you and Mark David for your successful hunts. Very nice performance from both the 475 B&M SS and the new 500 B&M. Love how the .500s drive straight through the trees AND the game hiding behind it! Jim "Life's hard; it's harder if you're stupid" John Wayne | |||
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Yep, I can't use any of raptors (copper or brass) heavier than 135gr for my .308 from CEB as all the other bullets require faster than the 1:12 twist that is on my gun. | |||
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So that is why he kept giving me another beer!!!!! 
Sean... Exactly why I never got overly concerned about moving to 1:12 in the 416.... I think that same bullet also did rather well on that big elephant you shot as well???
Ain't it the truth Cappy.... Incredible performance........ from both......
Tanks, I have forgot about the little rat rifles, but I have a 1:12 308 that does not do good with the 130 ESP Raptors, but with the 100 ESP Raptors it is a 1/4 inch group at 50 yards with 5 rounds. I moved to the 100 ESP Raptor in 308 as standard. Anything I would, or any of my guys with 308s would do can be done with the 100..... The two new PTR's in 308 run the 100 at 2950 and 3000 in those 18 inch barrels, 1:10 twist.... We will play with those when you visit...... and some other things too...HEH.... M http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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Yeah, their web site does say 1:11 or better required for the 130gr ESP raptor in .308. It is the Copper Raptor at 135gr that is supposed to stabilize in .308 for 1:12. However, even that one they do not recommend for 1:12 twist for longer ranges. | |||
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Tanks... Yes I would say that 1:11 would be correct for the 130 ESPs... I have never messed with the copper raptors, for my purposes just never really needed. I won't be doing much of anything with the .308 calibers other than what I can do with that 100 ESP Raptor anyway. In addition I mess with the .224s, and that 50 Raptor is just the most wicked thing one can put in a 223. I had two old Win M70 bolt guns, I think they must have been 1:14s, I had Brian change barrels on both those guns to 1:8 match barrels he had on hand, and those guns are incredible now. One was sporter the other heavy, I kept the same contours, did not want new stocks, made the sporter a 20 inch and the varmint 22 inch...... these guns, and others I have in 223 shoot far better than I can shoot...... Faster twists rule the day with all these bullets in the rat guns and most of the bigger bores too up to 416 and the heavy 400s. To me, if I am serious about a cartridge/rifle in rat guns, I will change the barrel for these bullets, its worth the effort in the end. Mark and his hippo...... 475 Super Short  475 Super Short and Buffalo.......  475 Super Short and Elephant........  http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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Very nice. Jim "Life's hard; it's harder if you're stupid" John Wayne | |||
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Congratulations Mark David....I bet you are still smiling after a great safari..  ..475 B&M SS it's a power house way beyond it's size | |||
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Hey Michael, I just remembered, you were going to show us your new 'flat bottomed' bolt handle(s) when you returned. I know you're busy with your 'real work' - but when you get a chance the peanut gallery would appreciate a photo... Jim "Life's hard; it's harder if you're stupid" John Wayne | |||
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The guy who runs Duane Wiebes CNC mill is a friend of mine and I've been talking to him about B&M bottom metal. Price would probably be about $500 depending on what technical solution is used, they'd hold four down without a drop box and the quality of Custom Gun and Rifle bottom metal is of course no secret. They'd need to do thirty to justify it but I only need to pay up front for a couple of them to cover the cost of tooling and then you guys can buy them off the shelf after they are run. I want to gauge interest so post here or message me if you want an extra round or (much) better than factory bottom metal. When the numbers make sense I will break open the piggy bank and get the ball rolling. Thanks guys, and if I stepped on anyone's toes posting it here and now I apologize. | |||
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Matthew is going to be SOOOOO pissed- Super congrats Mark, can't wait to hear the stories at DSC next year. "The rule is perfect: in all matters of opinion our adversaries are insane." Mark Twain TANSTAAFL www.savannagems.com A unique way to own a piece of Africa. DSC Life NRA Life | |||
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    http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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Ryan............. Count me for TWO of these....... Also, happy to send a rifle or two for fit and finish....... Michael http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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Some photos of Tanks new 500 MDM............ Montana LEFT hand Action, 20 inch barrel, GunKote matt black finish, red fiber optic front sight and NECG Barrel band, NECG Rear adjustable, Tanks wanted the top rail mounted, and last, but most certainly NOT LEAST, Accurate Innovactions Stock... Bastogne?? I forget?? Anyway, very nice looking gun and Tanks and I will start shooting it on Thursday--Saturday +++, along with several other projects we have going, another is Tanks 416 B&M which has not arrived as of yet, Lionhunters 458 B&M to check POI with some of his loads, some pressure work and other things we may be doing, so it is going to be a very busy upcoming week from Thursday forward................ Apologies for the sorry ass photos.... both my little cameras have give up the ghost, using Momma's big Cannon, and I have not versed myself proper in its use just yet...............      http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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Purty!!! | |||
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Thanks for the photos Michael. Very nice solution to the finger barking dilemma. Tanks - Great stock buddy! Very nice looking rig, just not sure why you're using a 6-24x50 tactical scope on that little 50. Jim "Life's hard; it's harder if you're stupid" John Wayne | |||
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A straight bolt handle would also reduce the injury to the trigger finger I think. So why not use both on our B/Hs? (See two pics below)  D/R Hunter Correct bullet placement, combined with the required depth of bullet penetration, results in an anchored animal... | |||
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Michael, How does the Montana action compare to Model 70's as far as fit and function goes? I love how smooth my Winchester's are, just wondering if the Montana's are in the ball park. Thanks! Sent from my iPhone | |||
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DR....... The only time that the bolt on a Win M70 and B&M becomes any issue at all is with 458 B&M to 50 B&M in one of the very light Ultimate stocks, as shown on the modified bolt. Shooting lighter bullets, 400 or less, its no issue. When going to the 450+ in one of the light guns (6.5 lbs) then the bolt knob hits the back of your trigger finger behind the knuckle and knocks the bark off of it. The flattened bolt knob solves that issue, and is FAR FAR easier than trying to straighten a M70 bolt handle, which runs into all sorts of issues and possible failures of the bolt handle in the future. Not to mention STOCK issues too....... The bolt knob is only a issue in that exact scenario. Not an issue at all in 416 less in Ultimate stocks, nor any issue with a wood stock......... For the most part, its a non-issue. I have several B&Ms set up in the Ultimate stocks, the larger calibers set up for Alaska (458B&M) one does not need the heavier bullets for that work at all anyway....... Michael http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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Templar..... Right now I don't have the answer to that. With Tanks rifle it has the GunKote finish on it, and the bolt has not been worked in yet. In addition to that, being left handed I personally can't manipulate the bolt as smoothly as I can a right hand gun. I THINK, once the GunKote has been worked in that it will be just fine. I had Sam handle the rifle, and I had my buddy John handle the rifle this week, and both said it felt very good and will be great......... Once Tanks arrives this coming Thursday and we begin to work with the gun then we will have a much better idea about this..... This is also something I am interested in as well, feed, function, retaining of the Montana's. Right now, it seems to be doing all of that what little bit I have messed with it. So far, so good, but you can believe Tanks and I are going to put it through the ringer........... Michael http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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Thanks for the discussion on bolts hitting the trigger finger. My 500 AccRel in a Ruger action did the same thing until I got the stock to lay back in more of a rifle grip than a pistol grip. The next time I'm with the rifle I will check to see if some bolt filing would help, too. +-+-+-+-+-+-+ "A well-rounded hunting battery might include: 500 AccRel Nyati, 416 Rigby or 416 Ruger, 375Ruger or 338WM, 308 or 270, 243, 223" -- Conserving creation, hunting the harvest. | |||
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Curious, why not just replace the bolt handle with a straight bolt instead of an angled bolt? Mike | |||
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That would cause more issues than it solves..........
http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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