quote:

Originally posted by capoward:
...Ok I understand. So the obvious choice is the 416 B&M - and I might add that I have fired this cartridge at 325yds...and it is a very accurate cartridge/rifle combo. There's also a great availability of various bullet weights.

Yep, pulled the trigger on the 416 B&M to complement the 500 MDM. AI has the stock order and is looking for another Bastogne stock to match the one that will be on the MDM. I should be able to source everything I need in regards to reloading supplies by the time the rifle gets completed.

quote:

Originally posted by tanks:

quote:

Originally posted by capoward:
...Ok I understand. So the obvious choice is the 416 B&M - and I might add that I have fired this cartridge at 325yds...and it is a very accurate cartridge/rifle combo. There's also a great availability of various bullet weights.

Yep, pulled the trigger on the 416 B&M to complement the 500 MDM. AI has the stock order and is looking for another Bastogne stock to match the one that will be on the MDM. I should be able to source everything I need in regards to reloading supplies by the time the rifle gets completed.

Very wise choice...

Definitely zero fleas on the 500 MDM - or the new 500 B&M - but my two favorites are still the 416 B&M and 50 B&M... Especially when wrapped up in really nice walnut AI stocks...

We will need pictures!!!

Have you tried the Barnes 350gr TTSX in your 416 B&M?

No

Using Barnes 300 gr TSX's @2650 fps---fun load for hogs.

quote:

Originally posted by tanks:
Have you tried the Barnes 350gr TTSX in your 416 B&M?

Tanks I don't own a B&M; I built a .423 caliber and a .500 caliber on the 338 Lapua case on my two FNH commercial M98 Mauser actions.

And I’ve not shot the 350gr .416 TTSX bullet. That said, I have shot both the 300 TSX and 350 TSX from one of Michael's 416 B&M (great piece of walnut on an AI stock) at 325yds across canyon which is pretty ‘real world’ in Western USA hunting. Both loads were very accurate but the 300gr TSX was somewhat easier to mentally deduce the appropriate holdover and drift with a 1x4 power scope.

What you’re asking is a conundrum without addressing the velocity impact point where expansion with the Barnes monometal bullet becomes problematic (and I don’t recollect where that point is).
Here are three comparisons to demonstrate this – Using QuickLOAD data in QuickTARGET…
At 300yds:
300gr TSX @ 2642fps MV & 4650ft-lbs = 1817fps & 3245ft-lbs / 33.47” drop & 7.32” drift
350gr TTSX @ 2376fps MV & 4686ft-lbs = 1847fps & 3464ft-lbs / 32.79” drop & 7.61” drift
At 325yds:
300gr TSX @ 2642fps MV & 4650ft-lbs = 1764fps & 3151ft-lbs / 34.91” drop & 12.23” drift
350gr TSX @ 2414fps MV & 4547ft-lbs = 1677fps & 3226ft-lbs / 40.91” drop & 11.81” drift
350gr TTSX @ 2376fps MV & 4386ft-lbs = 1793fps & 3362ft-lbs / 39.58” drop & 8.90” drift
At 350yds:
300gr TSX @ 2642fps MV & 4650ft-lbs = 1701fps & 3038ft-lbs / 42.60” drop & 14.30” drift
350gr TTSX @ 2376fps MV & 4386ft-lbs = 1766fps & 3311ft-lbs / 47.06” drop & 10.70” drift

Just find the most accurate loading in your individual rifle and go with it...

It would be "real world" Western USA hunting for sure. The outfitter for my upcoming October Elk hunt did tell me that the average shot would be around 300 yards or so.

The .416 B&M would be ready with several months to spare, and I was looking at either the 235gr CEB or the 350gr TTSX for that.

Now, the bullet length for the 350gr TTSX is 1.603", and I don't know whether that would feed through the magazine of 416 B&M.

The 235gr CEB with @2900fps & 4389ft/lbs at the muzzle gives 1946fps and 1976ft/lbs at 300 yards. More than enough for Elk, I think.

Tanks,

Using the Win M70 WSM action you have an internal magazine length right at, or just under, 3.100” length. You can measure to verify your exact capable COAL but I’m sure you can go to at least 3.040” with a spitzer nose profile.

A 300yd average shot for Western elk hunting…
My closest Colorado mule deer shot was 25yds in the trees back in 1975 with a 264 WinMag. It however bordered on an open area 450yd or so across in one direction to 1,000yd (or so) across in the other. I just happened to be in a lucky spot…

The only reason I brought that mule deer up is that your Western US elk country 300avg shot could easily range 50-100yds either side of the 300yds… So go with the bullet that the boys at CEB recommend (because they shoot really long range) and then practice with your most accurate loading until a 350yd shot is a simple chip shot for you.

Good luck… And hunt pictures required!!!

I can't say much about shooting 300 yards, I can't see much past 25 anyway.... There have been several chaps doing some wild ass shooting with some of the B&Ms however. Writer Aaron Carter had one of my 50 Super Shorts for deer season a few years ago, shot a deer at a measured 230 yards with a 385 Remington at 2100 fps, deer did not go anywhere.. LOL..... Recently good friend of mine was supposed to use my 458 Super Short on a pig hunt, pig hunt did not happen, he and some friends were at a range somewhere and did some 400 yard shooting with the 250 Socom at 2600 fps, after the first shot they got the holdover, after that it become boring according to him, hitting 10 inch steel plate every time at 400 yards...... I am quite sure the 225 Raptor at 2900 fps or so would do what is needed at 300 yards.....

In 2008 I took my boys to South Africa for a shoot. 416 B&M was along, and at that time we were using the 350 TSX, I think at 2450 fps or so as I recall... Terminal performance was fantastic on kudu, oryx and such as that the boys used the rifle for. In fact, Andrew and Matthew took off on a kudu trail, I stayed with the truck. I heard a shot, and a few seconds later here come a kudu trotting towards us at the truck. I grabbed my rifle, I thought it might have been wounded, and jumped off the truck and by the time I threw the rifle up the kudu fell over stone cold dead! Well, problem was, there was no sign of a entrance or exit anywhere on that Kudu?????? No blood, no nothing? What the hell, heart attack or something? LOL... Matthew and Andrew came up a minute or so later, and that is when they informed me that Andrew had Matt do a "Texas Heart Shot" on the kudu! Something I poopoo'ed both of them over. Come to find out the 350 TSX had traveled from the rear, into the vitals clipping lungs, but not the heart, and appeared the kudu only went 60 yards or so...... Can't argue with that.... too much anyway.....

The TSX are superb bullets, and I reckon had we not discovered the NonCons, and worked so close with them and the North Fork boys as well, we might be using TSX bullets today, especially in common calibers, 458 and 416 that are available, and not a bad choice at all.......

But for the long range work, I will leave that to those that are far more capable than I.... Ya'll know me, if the blood don't splatter on my face at the shot, then its too far.......... I might miss if it were much further than that.... HEH HEH..........
M

Has anyone tried any of the EOTech's HOLOgraphic sights?

http://www.eotechinc.com/holog...pon-sights/model-552

I used it this past weekend on a friend's gun. It was impressive.

Jim

have a ballistic question for you if I can impose-

Lets take a 416 400 gr. @ 2150---- project Flbs of energy.

What velocity would it take to equal that ftlb number with a 416 350 gr bullet?

quote:

Originally posted by tanks:
Has anyone tried any of the EOTech's HOLOgraphic sights?

[url=http://www.eotechinc.com/holographic-weapon-sights/model-552]http://www.eotechinc.com/holog...pon-sights/model-552[/ur

I used it this past weekend on a friend's gun. It was impressive.

Yes. I have used them on AR platforms and on my large bore revolvers - .500 & .480. They are excellent and have worked in Africa on my handguns. The USMC has been using them for years and they have even mounted them on M2 .50 caliber machine guns. They never seem to be affected by recoil. They will work even if the screen is damaged or covered in mud, just as long as you can find the dot in even a corner of the screen.

I have considered mounting one on my DR but went with the smaller Burris FastFire red-dot. One may still find its' way onto a DR.

quote:

Originally posted by Sean Russell:
...Lets take a 416 400 gr. @ 2150---- project Flbs of energy.

What velocity would it take to equal that ftlb number with a 416 350 gr bullet?

The 400gr bullet @2130 gives 4106ft/lbs at the muzzle.
The 350gr bullet @2300 gives 4111 ft/lbs at the muzzle.

Now, down range the BC of the bullets come into play as well as weight in regards to velocity/energy. The heavier bullet at lower velocity will also shed energy faster even if both have the same BC. For example with the above velocities and same BC the 400gr will have 2588 ft/lbs compared to 2623 ft/lbs for the 350gr bullet at 100 yards.

quote:

Originally posted by Sean Russell:
Jim

have a ballistic question for you if I can impose-

Lets take a 416 400 gr. @ 2150---- project Flbs of energy.

What velocity would it take to equal that ftlb number with a 416 350 gr bullet?

Hey Sean,

Just noticed your request – also that Tanks has partially answered it…

Since you didn’t specify I used the Swift A-Frame for softs and Barnes BND SLD RN for solids…
So here goes – using Swift A-Frame bullets:
At 100yds:
350gr SAF @ 2298fps MV & 4104ft-lbs = 2046fps & 3838ft-lbs / 3.74” drop & 0.87” drift
400gr SAF @ 2150fps MV & 4104ft-lbs = 1934fps & 3957ft-lbs / 4.45” drop & 0.60” drift
At 150yds:
350gr SAF @ 2298fps MV & 4104ft-lbs = 1920fps & 3600ft-lbs / 9.02” drop & 2.16” drift
400gr SAF @ 2150fps MV & 4104ft-lbs = 1834fps & 3753ft-lbs / 9.89” drop & 1.85” drift
At 200yds:
350gr SAF @ 2298fps MV & 4104ft-lbs = 1811fps & 3396ft-lbs / 15.89” drop & 4.60” drift
400gr SAF @ 2150fps MV & 4104ft-lbs = 1735fps & 3549ft-lbs / 18.04” drop & 4.43” drift
At 250yds:
350gr SAF @ 2298fps MV & 4104ft-lbs = 1693fps & 3175ft-lbs / 25.92” drop & 7.61” drift
400gr SAF @ 2150fps MV & 4104ft-lbs = 1643fps & 33345ft-lbs / 29.81” drop & 7.04” drift
At 300yds:
350gr SAF @ 2298fps MV & 4104ft-lbs = 1593fps & 3989ft-lbs / 39.19” drop & 11.34” drift
400gr SAF @ 2150fps MV & 4104ft-lbs = 1735fps & 3549ft-lbs / 43.40” drop & 10.57” drift
And here goes – using Barnes BND SLD RN bullets (QL v3.6 has eliminated the Barnes BND SLD FN in favor of their RN and I haven’t figured out how to recover the FN specs yet):
At 100yds:
350gr BBS @ 2298fps MV & 4104ft-lbs = 2073fps & 3889ft-lbs / 4.26” drop & 0.90” drift
400gr BBS @ 2150fps MV & 4104ft-lbs = 1959fps & 4008ft-lbs / 4.72” drop & 0.82” drift
At 150yds:
350gr BBS @ 2298fps MV & 4104ft-lbs = 1974fps & 3702ft-lbs / 9.02” drop & 1.98” drift
400gr BBS @ 2150fps MV & 4104ft-lbs = 1851fps & 3787ft-lbs / 9.25” drop & 1.98” drift

Hope this helps…

Andy,
Finally saw your PM and have responded…

Michael....I went to the B&M web site the 458 B&M SA and 50 B&M SA are no longer listed ?

I was wondering what the length of the cases were ?

Coyote...
Yes, those are no longer on being Semi, I did not want the attention......

Case is a 2 inch RUM case for both.....

M

quote:

Originally posted by coyote wacker:
Michael....I went to the B&M web site the 458 B&M SA and 50 B&M SA are no longer listed ?

I was wondering what the length of the cases were ?

They'll work great in anything originally chambered for one of the RSAUM cartridges; same 2" case length.

Here in Michigan's Southern lower peninsula they are going to be changing the law concerning legal firearms for deer hunting, from muzzleloaders 44 cal. or larger, shotguns, handguns 358 cal. or larger straight wall.

To the 44 cal. muzzleloaders, shotguns and 358 cal. or larger straight wall no longer than 1.8" handgun or rifle.

I was hoping the 50 B&M SA was 1.8", I could used a left hand WSM action and shoot 300 gr. CEB with tips no problem.

That would make the 50 B&M SS legal, at 1.65"

Coyote........

Brent Ebling and I did a 458 B&M Super Short on a WSM action, 1.65 inch case..... We did not suffer any feeding or function issues at all, we thought we might gain some by seating out further and playing with case capacity, but we did not gain enough to take notice of.

I sent it back, had it rechambered in 458 B&M SA, 2 inch case. Jury is still out, but in the end, I think we might have just been as well off doing a 16 inch standard 458 B&M for the purposes that we were doing it in the first place... There is still some things to explore, like shooting some of the longer nose profile #13s with tips...working through the magazine.

But, point being, we did have a WSM in the 1.65 inch Super Short, and it worked fine, never an issue. And to, with the 1.65 inch case, longer nose profile bullet, using long nose Talon Tips.... ??? Maybe.....

Or the 50 Super Short and even the 475 Super Short.......??????

M

quote:

Originally posted by coyote wacker:
Here in Michigan's Southern lower peninsula they are going to be changing the law concerning legal firearms for deer hunting, from muzzleloaders 44 cal. or larger, shotguns, handguns 358 cal. or larger straight wall.

To the 44 cal. muzzleloaders, shotguns and 358 cal. or larger straight wall no longer than 1.8" handgun or rifle.

I was hoping the 50 B&M SA was 1.8", I could used a left hand WSM action and shoot 300 gr. CEB with tips no problem.

That would make the 50 B&M SS legal, at 1.65"

CW,

As an FYI, Michael developed the original cartridge for a DPMS Semi-Auto rifle so the nomenclature stood for 50 B&M S(emi)-A(uto). I always thought a more appropriate nomenclature would have been 50 B&M S(hort)-A(ction) as it’s the perfect length to fit in factory Short Action rifles such as the Ruger M77 SA.

Anyway, I’ve played with the 50 B&M SS in QD and QL for a few years now and the Talon Tip’d Raptor Lever Gun or ESP Raptor bullets will work just fine from a M77 Ruger SA rifle (the rifle I checked was chambered for the 300 SAUM) which has an internal magazine length just under 3.0” – so it’ll definitely work in the slightly longer M70 Winchester WSM actioned rifle which has a magazine just short of 3.1” internal length.

Anyway back to the 50 B&M SA vs the 50 B&M SS cartridges…

quote:

Michigan Senate bill 775 has been introduced to allow the following cartridges to be used in our Zone III for deer: A .35 caliber or larger rifle loaded with straight-walled cartridges with a minimum case length of 1.16 inches and a maximum case length of 1.80 inches.

Ok so the actual requirement is a case length specification without regard for overall chamber length.

So the 50 B&M SS is lawful with its 1.65” case length.

I recommend you have Brian chamber your LH M70 WSM for the existing 50 B&M SA finish reamer. Then have Brian add ‘MI’ after the 50 B&M SA on the barrel so that the barrel would read 50 B&M SA-MI, and use a brass maximum-trim-to-length of 1.8” for Michigan. The shorter case with the longer chamber length shouldn’t affect accuracy as the combined ‘total practical freebore’ will only be slightly longer than a single caliber length.

Develop your loading for the 1.8” case length, post the information on AmmoGuide Interactive for the 50 B&M SA-MI, which in this case would relate to 50 B&M S(hort)A(ction)-MI(chigan), which will solidify the legality of the cartridge and perhaps also increase its popularity. For hunting outside Michigan you can use either your 1.8” SA-MI case length or the 2.0” SA case length.

Regardless of case length used, the brass headstamp will show 50 B&M ‘cause I don’t recollect Quality Cartridge producing any with the 50 B&M SA headstamp – but that should not be an issue as you’ll likely be using .300 RUM brass cut down for your cases anyway.

Just a thought…

Perhaps I am being to simplistic, but what about just going with the 50 SS in the WSSM action, and 325 gr Barnes----would kill any deer , wolf or moose on earth?

If you need more power at short range, then move on to the CEB rounds--which even with out Talon Tiop are fantastic.

quote:

Originally posted by Sean Russell:
Perhaps I am being to simplistic, but what about just going with the 50 SS in the WSSM action, and 325 gr Barnes----would kill any deer , wolf or moose on earth?

Sean,

I believe part of the issue is that CW currently possesses a LH M70 WSM action. I'm not sure if LH M70 WSSM actions were manufactured, or if so are readily available today.

ah Thanks Jim, I missed the LH part---

MY Bad

quote:

Originally posted by Sean Russell:
ah Thanks Jim, I missed the LH part---

MY Bad

No Bad Sean. The 50 B&M SS would have been perfect had it not been for the LH requirement.

Yeah, us lefties do have problems in finding stuff.

I wonder how the State legislatures come up with these regulations on case sizes etc.. If they had to legislate effectiveness it would make more sense to use ft/lbs at the muzzle.

quote:

If they had to legislate effectiveness it would make more sense to use ft/lbs at the muzzle.

That would presume they have an idea of what they're doing. LOL...

I have a 50 B&M SS built on a Winchester 70 WSSM action, that has been my go to gun for the past couple years. Not only is it fun to shoot, it's a hammer on game. But the bolt is on the wrong side for me know.

This winter I switched to shooting left handed due to a vision problem. I have for years practiced shooting all my guns from the right and left side so the change wasn't that bad.

capoward....50 B&M SA MI would be a logical choice for a old farmboy like me.

tanks....being a south paw choices are limited, but much larger than it was in the late 60's when I started hunting.

quote:

Originally posted by tanks:
Yeah, us lefties do have problems in finding stuff.

I wonder how the State legislatures come up with these regulations on case sizes etc.. If they had to legislate effectiveness it would make more sense to use ft/lbs at the muzzle.

Same as your email about your CWP....... LOL.............. Same as USFW banning import of elephant ivory for legal sportsman to prevent poaching.... Yeah, makes a lot of sense.......

Our governments at their best........

quote:

50 B&M SA MI would be a logical choice for a old farmboy like me.

Coyote.... I think we can make a plan if you want, along the lines of what Cappy expands on.....

The only issue I can think of is the thickness of the brass at 1.8......?????

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:

quote:

50 B&M SA MI would be a logical choice for a old farmboy like me.

The only issue I can think of is the thickness of the brass at 1.8......?????

Wall thickness might be an issue; might require a second seating die for the SA-MI to accommodate the wall thickness.

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:

The only issue I can think of is the thickness of the brass at 1.8......?????

Michael....I went and cut 300 RUM brass to 2" and 1.8". The 1.8" one ended up with a .001" thicker wall. That could be a normal tolerance in cases ?

Just might need to be inside reamed.

When I first started to work cutting and forming brass for my 50 B&M SS, I had a mix of WSM brass brands. Federal brass was to thick use, the bolt wouldn't close on a loaded round, you could see the case was bulged from the bullet.

Coyote.........

After having the experience with the WSM that Brent and I messed with, 458 B&M Super Short on WSM action, and it worked 100% with no issues, then that is obviously the most simple thing to do... One of the Super Shorts on the WSM action.....

As for as ballistics there would be little or no appreciable difference in going to 1.8 RUM case, and might get a slight bulge, and I hate a bulge, drives me insane.....

When I was lucky enough to get some 50 B&M head stamped brass, I took 100 pieces of that brass and cut it to 1.65 inches for the 50 B&M Super Short..... It was RUM basic, but so thick at 1.65 that I got a BIG bulge, ugly, and had trouble chambering as well.... So my guy took it to a lathe, cut and reamed the inside until we removed the bulge... I have been saving that, have not shot but a few of them to test....

So yes, if we have a bulge at 1.8, and I bet we would, then it could be reamed down inside and made to work...

We will tinker with whatever you want to do, just a thing to sort out is all...... We can speak to Brian this week about it if you want.....

M

CW,

You might contact Kathy Greenhaw, Office Manager for Captech International, they own Jamison head stamped brass, at (605) 791-1974 and ask if they'll offer a basic version of their 300 SAUM or 300 WSM brass when they do a brass run.

If they do, or will, it'll be fairly easy to form your 1.8" SA-MI cases without a doughnut along the case with a bullet seated.

Ron Berry contacted them regarding 338 Lapua Magnum brass and they now offer a basic run when they do a LM brass. They maintain a 'need list' so when they're ready to do a commercial run you'll be contacted to determine if you still need the basic brass.

Just a thought, definitely worth a phone call...

Michael...For this season I'am going to use my 50 B&M SS, I was going to let my wife use it but she told me yesterday not to buy her any hunting tags this year. So there is no urgency to try to get this project for late September hunt. So I have time to try to find a left hand Winchester 70 WSM or....?

A thought I had would a Ruger 300 RMC action work for a 50 B&M SA ? When you talk to Brian would you ask him ?..... I've seen them for less than half the price of a left hand Winchester 70 WSM.... I would like to not use my Winchester 300 WSM.

capoward....Thanks for all the information on options for brass... but whats on a head stamp will mean nothing to any DNR officer here in Michigan, most of them are ex-State cops not the sharpest knives in the drawer when it comes to game, fish and guns.... Just what they can write a ticket for....

I took a couple pieces of brass and inside turned them on the lathe, it only took a minute after setting up.

Coyete wacker,

I don't know if it will work, but if the Hawkeye does work, they have lefty versions on clearance at CDNN:
http://www.cdnnsports.com/fire...8&caliber=239&cat=14

New Hawkeye M77, about $570 RH, $590LH, before shipping and FFL work.
Ruger usually needs a good recoil pad added, but the LOP is so short that extra adjustment is not often necessary. Just find the Limbsaver that fits and screw it on.

CW, A M77 SA LH Ruger in 300 RCM will definitely work for the 50 B&M SA, the same action was previously offered the in the SAUM cartridges which have the same case profile as the B&M SA cartridges. I’m not sure if Ruger uses the same magazine box for the RCM and SAUM cartridges, if not you can install the SAUM magazine box to eliminate any potential stacking issue.

No problems on the brass. Though if a headstamp becomes an issue, the Basic Brass has no headstamp… LOL…

While I am a die hard M-70 fan, the Ruger would seem to be the solution for a left handed rifle.

And a lot less expensive--

Talked to Brian yesterday, and we are in agreement... No real problem we don't think with the Ruger. We built a 50 B&M on a Ruger Alaskan, held 2 down, works fine. But, I don't want to build a 2 inch chamber on one using a 1.8 inch case, in .500... While the Extractor does the job, I don't want to push that issue without some backup head space..... I still think we should do one of the Super Shorts at 1.65 and keep it at that. I know we are not gaining much if any going to the slightly longer 1.8 RUM... Not enough to make a big difference anyway.......

But we have some time to sort it out too.....

M

Michael.... Thanks for talking to Brian....I was taking for granted that the extractor would for head space....then I remembered a Winchester 70 pre-64 257 Roberts Ackley Improved I had in the 70's I tried firing some Remington factory ammo in it and experienced the flaw in the pre-64's gas coming back in my face the primer sticking out of the pocket black soot covering most of the case....I figured out I needed to have the bullet touch the rifling and everything was fine forming cases.

Coyote.......

quote:

I was taking for granted that the extractor would for head space...

Well, we all know I believe strongly in the extractor doing its job, and it most likely would in this case as well, a slight mistake in case length makes no big difference and has never been an issue, but to purposely go that much shorter for 100% of the time, I would bet that at one point or another, a case out of spec, or something such, might cause an issue. Difference in extractor? Not all are equal... So just don't want you to spend that sort of $$ and MAYBE have a problem.........

I know most of you know this, but I once took 100 pieces of 50 Super Short Ammo... 1.65 inch case... Fired 100 of them in a 50 B&M.. 2.25 inch chamber... 100% success... Accuracy was HORRIBLE, but they fired. I have shot 50 B&M in 500 MDM, not many, but just to see, worked... and that shows alone how much the extractor is in control... But I would not want to rely on that 100%.... A little backup is good....

Left hand is a hard go..... In your case, I would be WAY more happy and comfortable doing a Super Short, any of them, on a WSM Left hand gun, or try one on the Ruger..... But I would stay with the Super Short to keep you under 1.8....
That one we did with Brent worked like a charm, funny looking in the magazine, but it worked, feed and functioned 100%......

M

CW,
Have you thought about getting a left handed stock for your right handed 50 S&S?

In other words, a stock where the cheekpiece is on the right hand side for left handed shooting.

With a shorter rifle barrel it shouldn't take much practice to get comfortable with the bolt on the right hand side while shooting as a lefty.

I have done it both ways either reaching over with the left hand or using my right hand to get to the bolt. It is still pretty fast enough.