Johnny

In measuring several rim dimensions on several pieces of brass you can flip a coin between the two rims, pretty much the same, some on both smaller than .532. Bodies at .545-.550 on the RUM and WSM cases. You are correct. In this run of brass that Quality Cartridge did for the 500 MDM I actually had Pete go with a little larger rim around .534 so that the brass would fit a little tighter in the bolt face and be more positive in the extractor. It works well and is super good brass.

No offense at all. I welcome the questions, and I promise that I don't have all the answers! As for feeding of the various B&M cartridges there is not a problem. At times with some rifles there is an issue of retaining the cartridges in the magazine! What happens is that the magazine was designed for 7mmWSM to 325WSM or in the case of the 50 Super Short 223WSSM to 25WSSM. So when you throw a case like the B&Ms in the magazine it carries a much heavier bullet up front. The weight of that bullet will throw the front of the cartridge up and out of the magazine on some of the rifles. This is a very easy fix (not by me of course-they don't let me have tools like that!) but Brian at SSK sorts that out in short order. One of my main issues is that very thing. Brian most of the time sorts this out before I get the rifle, I keep them in dummy rounds for this reason. When I get the rifle I put 3 down and close the bolt! Then I slam that bolt back with some authority and make sure all rounds retain in the magazine! If not-send it back to Brian for some adjustments. During all test work I do this to make sure the rifle is 100% reliable, feeds, functions, retains the works. This is the only issue I have ever had with the rifles. With the 50s you will have some rifles that won't feed some of the available bullets in .500 caliber. One of my favorites is the 500 gr Hornady. It has a big flat lead exposed nose on it. Some of the 50s will feed it, but most will not. The exposed lead gets caught on the bottom lip of the feed ramp. This bullet is superb at up to 2100 fps and holds together at that velocity! Hit's like the hammer of Thor too! If I use it in the bolt guns I normally round off the edges of the meplat which allows it to feed proper. One can always find a bullet of some sort that any rifle or handgun does not like to feed. All the designs of the solids & HPs for the 50s that David Fricke does feed perfect in all the rifles. The 458s and 416s feed all normal bullets for those calibers just fine. I have not shot much cast bullets in the 458s or 416s, but I am sure some of those large cast meplats would not feed in them either. The barnes flat nose solids feed slick and smooth thru them.

Oh I really like the concept of the scout scope! Jeff Cooper is and will always be one of my great heros! In fact just before he passed away I had sent him a letter along with many photos of the rifles set up as scouts. Two weeks before he passed he sent a nice note back to me. I think he would have liked the guns a lot had he been around a little longer! What I learned about the scout scopes was that the field of view for things up close--10 yds or so--is very very poor. Of course both eyes open, but still I did not care for it much and don't use it much on these sort of rifles. For me personally up close I do much better with the Aimpoints-or the 1.5X5 Leupolds. If things are close--inside 25 yds I do ok with the iron sights too. But beyond 25 my eyes are not so good anymore and I don't trust myself enough with irons. As for carry I do like the forward mount and it is easy to carry in the magazine area, I agree! I don't know if I have covered all the ground or not, there is always a lot of good ideas floating around, so I welcome any that might make a positive outcome!

Thanks
Michael

Michael; . Very , very impressed with your work . Amazing ..... Finding good recipes for these must be pretty rewarding ... I just got a very pleasant surprise with my 9.3x64 yesterday .......I keep toying with turning my main 458 win into a 458 AR ... I would like 2800 fps with the 300 gr Barnes TSX and I no way can do that with the 458 Win .....Your 416 is very appealing . But the 416 Ruger came out and I,m on a budget ... It being the ultimate budget big bore currently ........

The only thing I have seen on your rifles that I don,t understand is the sling studs on the forends .. Don,t they gouge the crap out of your left hand .??????????????????????????????

quote:

Michael; . Very , very impressed with your work . Amazing ..... Finding good recipes for these must be pretty rewarding

[quote]


Gumboot458

Wow, thanks so much. Like Jeffe said it takes a long time, lot of sweat, lot of effort and while one may think that what they have been working on is good and justified, one only really finds out if it was all worth it by comments such as your own! Thank you!

Yes and the work is never finished and the search for new bullets, powder, loads and what have you continues! Very rewarding! Then when all goes to the field and everything works as designed it gets better!

You would have zero issues getting the 300 Barnes to 2800 fps in Jeffes 458 AR!
In the 458 B&M I have taken the 300 Barnes to 2650 fps in 20 inches of barrel. I really have not tried that load in the 18 inch guns, but even at 2600 or so it would do the job I am sure. The 416 B&M has been very successful, and beat the 416 Ruger by at least 3 yrs I think. However, you are correct it would be hard to justify the extra cost with the Ruger being available. I like Ruger rifles a lot, and have several of them, but in the last few years I have turned into a die hard Winchester M70 or nothing type of chap. But that is just me and has no bearing on anything.

"""The only thing I have seen on your rifles that I don,t understand is the sling studs on the forends .. Don,t they gouge the crap out of your left hand .??????????????????????????????"""

Gumboot I thought the same exact thing a few years ago and insisted the guns have barrel band sling studs installed. I would then take off the stock mounted sling stud and plug the hole with something. But as time passed I noticed that it just was not an issue at all and I quit the barrel band studs on later rifles. To answer honestly, no they don't gouge my hand even with the heaviest loads? In some of the photos with some of the first guns you will see either a screw on barrel stud or a band on some of the rifles. These were some of the first guns. Also I have not heard anyone complain about getting their hands gouged either. I would have thought the exact same thing, and did at first, but later it become a moot point.

Thanks again, pleases me greatly that you like!

Michael

Gumboot

I see you might be from a place where it gets a little wet and damp. You might appreciate the following what I deem as my "Alaskan" rifles.

I was able to get 2732, about the time i got BORED with 302gr "hex" bullets ... i think it could go a bit more, but I just said "you know what, its a laser beam" and packed it up.

Neal HAMMERED pigs with that load.

michael458, what all did you ask SSK to do with your rifles as they were being built? Action bed, trigger job, free floated barrel, different recoil pad, new irons, etc?

Your picture of the 400 grain Swift that stopped with 15 inch of penetration on the lion really intrigued me.Is there any chance you might have a picture ot the wound channel?I imagine to stop that bullet at that depth the damage must be horrific.
Thanks in advance.
Regards,
brair

Hi Brair and welcome.

No the 400 gr Swift that you mention 15 inches of penetration was in my wet print mix. This is the photo with the 3 Swift A frames. The photo with the lion does not have penetration depth.

I did not measure the depth of the lion bullet. But what happened is that the bullet hit right in the joint of the shoulder and was found on the far side. It did break him down and was a broken mess! He was not going anywhere.

Welcome again.

Michael

Johnnyreb

Pretty standard across the board. Also at first it was a learning experience for me. Basic stuff on the first rifles was barrel length, sights, trigger, T'SOB rail in front the receiver, and barrel band front sight.

I did not designate barrel diameter or twist rate on the 50s. Later we all learned that 1:12 was the correct twist rate for all the .500 caliber rifles and our designed solids. Before that however I trimmed down the barrels a bit on the 50s to balance and keep the weight down.

So it is a learning process, for some things I was not sure what I wanted or even needed. But I am down to what I personally like right now. Of course there are many things one might change to please yourself.

If I build one of these today my basic deal is barrel length for me (18 inches), NECG barrel band front sight, NECG rear sight, trigger and bolt if needed. For me the taper is set now and I don't even mention that. If it's wood it gets bedded, the little Ultimate stocks don't have to be bedded, and if it's a AI stock it does not have to be bedded. Most of the time I use the recoil pad that is on the rifles. The only bad pads are the ones that come on the laminated rifles--the pads on the winchester stocks are great.

Michael

Now I cannot decide if I want one in 416 or 458. I have 9.3x62, so maybe I should step over the 416 and go with 458. Plus, there are all those inexpensive bullets intended for the 45-70...

Oh, and the reason I asked about the 480 grain Woodleigh that is intended for the 450 Nitro is that someone on this forum was using that bullet instead of the 510 grain bullet in their 458 Win Mag to get higher velocities.

Hi Johnny

Trouble deciding? Yeah, me too, that's why I have several of each of them!

I won't tell you that as soon as I get dies in I will start work on the new 9.3 B&M. Same rifle, 20 inch barrel. Should be a great addition to the family I think.

416B&M....458 B&M???? I like both, but I think I like the 458 version of the two the best, but I am not suppose to pick favorites, that is why I have several of each. You make an excellent point about many many inexpensive .458 caliber bullets, and many wonderful premiums to boot!

The 458 B&M has basically the same case capacity of the 458 Winchester. I believe the 458 B&M makes better use of the capacity in the shorter-fatter case, and in addition the shoulder. Regardless of it has always been my contention that these capacity cases are at their very best with 450 gr bullets. The 450s can be run to over 2200 fps, even in a 18 inch 458 B&M. Some pretty serious horse power in a very small package. In the 20 inch 458 B&Ms we can run 500s from 2130-2170 depending on the bullet, Woodleigh or Hornady. I have some 480 Hornady bullets, but really have not pushed them harder than the 500s so I can't really tell you what you could do with them. My guess would be 2175 without issue maybe 2200 in a 20 inch gun. I am running two 18 inch 458s right now, and getting one ready for buffalo in Australia in September.

If I can help in any way just let me know.

For some reason my notification has quit working, not sure if my PMs are working or not?

Michael

Hi Mike, I spoke with Brian at SSK regarding B&M conversions and now have one each stainless WSSM and WSM action to work with. That will do for now. I cant decide between 416 and 458 though. A pleasant sort of agony for sure.
Can you help me source brass and dies?
How did you like the XS ghost ring setup?

Hey John

I am pleased to hear this. Remember however the WSSM (Win SUPER SHORT) is for the 50 B&M Super Short only. Both 416 and 458 are on WSM actions.

I can help with the brass and dies. Have both on hand.

For iron sight option I like the XS Ghost ring very much.

I am having some trouble with my notifications from this site and also not sure I am getting any PMs??? I am going to send you a PM to check.

Thanks
Michael

michael458, in looking at one of your rifles with the TSOB rail and "traditional" scout scope, whihc scope is that? It looks like it hangs over the action quite a bit, but is it a bit too much for quick reloading, say, without looking down at the rifle? And which "dot" scopes are in the same picture? How well do they hold up under the recoil that these rifles generate?

Hey Johnny

The scout scope is a Leupold. It really is not set up for that particular rifle, and they are a bit long compared to other scopes of it's class. So there is a lot of hang, but most of that could be taken out. Also one can mount the T'SOB further up the barrel if you chose to.

I am not sure which picture, but I think I have a Aimpoint and that is what I have used the most. I am also trying one of the Ultra Dot reflex rigs now, but broke the screws last week. I broke by over tighten.

Never had an Aimpoint fail. They are tough as can be on these guns and several others I have tried them on, and the battery lasts forever, a year or more with the unit on 24/7!

I am having some issues with my PMs and Notifications. I picked this one up on the web site just now, so if I were to not answer via PM then my email is michael458@earthlink.net feel free to email if you want.

Michael

Michael, I received your PM and responded. Thank you.
Before I send the actions for conversions are there any particular rifle design points that you feel I should consider and discuss with Brian? It would seem, at least from what I see in your excellent photos, the rifle setups are exactly what I am looking for as they are.
JohnOMS

JohnOMS

I received your email and replied this morning. I think my reply answered most of your questions. Just consider barrel length that you want, and other particulars you might have in mind. I will be happy to help you sort some of those things out and then when you send to Brian send a little note along with those particulars. I am sure we can get whatever you want done to your rifles, and they will turn out great!

Michael

Received just this week Gun #1 in the smallest of the B&M Series the 9.3 B&M. Will try and get some photos up in the next day or so. Yes, I know it is not "Big Bore", my apologies! But it gives me a nice medium to complement the other B&M rifles!

Michael

quote:

Originally posted by JohnOMS:
Michael, I received your PM and responded. Thank you.
Before I send the actions for conversions are there any particular rifle design points that you feel I should consider and discuss with Brian? It would seem, at least from what I see in your excellent photos, the rifle setups are exactly what I am looking for as they are.
JohnOMS

John

I spoke with Brian this morning. He has your rifle and instructions, we spoke about it and all seems in order. He already has some barrels in stock ready to go, so I don't think you will be waiting too long for your new 50 B&M Super Short! I also advised him about the upcoming 458 B&M and 416 B&M. RTG---Ready to Go!

Michael

Thanks Michael. It is great news SSK has 50 cal barrels in stock. Should mean the 50 B&M SS will not be long in coming.

John

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
Received just this week Gun #1 in the smallest of the B&M Series the 9.3 B&M. Will try and get some photos up in the next day or so. Yes, I know it is not "Big Bore", my apologies! But it gives me a nice medium to complement the other B&M rifles!

Michael

I finally took time to get a couple of photos of this rifle. Still no dies yet.

quote:

Originally posted by johnnyreb:
I always thought a bolt rifle in 9.3x62 or 411 Hawk with a scout scope, rear aperture and front post, and stripper clip slot for fast reloading would be sweet. It is too bad that no stripper clips from old rimmed military cartridges fit the H&H, Jeffery and other similar sized case heads, at least that I know of...

.....
.
. Perhaps a little off topic , But a sheet metal worker could make one and a gunsmith could notch out the rear bridge ...... I havn,t needed one yet tho as usually topping off is 1 or 2 rounds ...........

Michael
Those are great pics of a very nice rifle indeed. As you know, I received the 458B&M and it shoots great. I am totally amazed at the size of this rig. It is about 1/2 inch SHORTER than a Charles Daly mini mauser. Incredible! SSK did a great job putting it together. The fit, finish and function are first rate. The rifle is so easy to handle and when I throw it up with my eyes closed, the sights are lined up when I open them. It fits me very well.
I am looking forward to the 416 B&M and the 50 SS B&M.
Thanks for you help getting things put together on these rifles.
John

and supper neato rounds!

Jeffe, thanks. I think between the B&M and the ARs we have the big bore world covered, at least with reasonable, useable calibers. I love big bores, in fact about the only thing I can get much interest in these days. But for me really only useable from 416-510. Much else gets to be too much of a good thing. The 9.3 for me will be a good medium caliber that I can play with, and presents a bit of interest to me of late.

John

I am pleased that you like! It is always hard to explain these guns, photos and talk really can't get the point across. But when one gets in hand it is immediately realized what they are about. Today is the day--your 416 should arrive today! Keep me posted.

Michael

Hi Michael,

just would like to know what case you use for the 9,3mm.
May let you now that i´m working on a 9,3x300WSM that is going to be CIP-aprooved within the next 4-6 weeks. Redding is making Dies for it.
Best
2RECON

Hey 2Recon

My case is a cut down RUM case. It is a tad longer than the WSM at 2.25 inches. Base case is for the 50 B&M--from there down to 458 B&M-then down to 416 B&M. Size die takes it down from .500 to 416 with no problems, but not sure yet if I can go from .500 to 9.3 in one step. I suspect I might have to go to 416, then down to 9.3.

So to answer your question direct it is just the B&M case taken down another step. Ballistically there won't be much difference between the two cartridges, your 9.3 WSM and the 9.3 B&M.

I will also announce now that it is official, JohnOMS is going to develop the new 375 B&M. So sometime in the near future John will be keeping us posted on that progress. 375 B&M is in the works, reamer being made now.

Michael

2RECON

I ordered the dies yesterday. Any other news from your side of the pond?

Michael

I know I know--9.3 does not belong here. Since it's part of the series, if someone does not object to it I will only post a few photos with it. Received the dies last week, able to make ammo, and have started 3rd generation loads this week.

Ok guys, need a little help here! The bottom rifle is my new myrtle stock from AI. It fits my barrel contour for any of my 50 B&M--458 B&M and 416 B&M rifles.

The top gun is my 500 MDM. So what looks better-Myrtle Stock Blue gun--Myrtle Stock Stainless Gun?

The top one looks perfect.
the bottom one should have no forend tip or rosewood with a red recoil pad or an in the white metal butt plate imho.
not bad looking by any means but a matter of taste.

Hey Boomy!

Yeah, you might be right about the rosewood tip on the white gun! This stock fits many of my rifles, just have not decided yet which one. I have an 18 inch blue 458 B&M that I am going to try in the morning. But it is starting to look good to me on this 20 inch 416. Maybe have to try a white 18 inch gun??? Forget the white metal butt plate, that hurts! The top stock is getting much darker as time goes by! I was surprised! A buddy of mine has 3 of the most gorgeous myrtle blanks I have ever seen in my life that he is going to build later for his B&M series rifles. They are unreal!

Busted the scope the other day on the 500 MDM. Replaced, have to sight back in the morning. The 500 is going to Australia along with a 458 B&M.

I am changing the 500 MDM a bit. Have a new reamer on the way. Moving shoulder forward and shortening the neck to .350. You know that little bulge in the neck of the case? I am taking that out with the shorter neck. Pet Peeve kinda thing!

Capoward is as bad as you are about case design! He and I have been back and forth for about three weeks on a 2.65 inch 500 MDM for standard actions. I think eventually we will sort one out.

OK what if I put the stock on a 18" black gun?

Michael

If you swap it to a black it would be as pretty as the top one...
See if you can do a rosewood tip and red recoil pad. Call it "Red" lol you can also put a leather add on recoil pad over a metal butplate that will go quite well.

You are having too much fun Michael

In a standard action why not just do the 500 MDM with the short stubbie 500 grain hornady pistol bullets. This was my thinking on the 500 Kill All. Those should kill anything but solids for DG please... you can single load longer bullet ones

Boomy

Ok Yes I am having some fun. I like this myrtle stock too. I tried it on a blue 18" 458 B&M I have, looked good, but the gun really did not fit well with the stock at the forend. So I changed it back!


Then I thought it might look good on the 18" stainless 458 B&M that I am taking to Australia along with the Myrtle stocked 500 MDM. It fit fine, but when I shot it it was 8 inches higher than the other stock I had in the 458 so I took that as an "omen" not to mess around. Took the stock off the ss 458 and put the other stock back on. Anyway taking TWO pimped out rifles with myrtle stocks might have been more than my Aussie buddies could stand!


So I have come right back around to where I started at with the stock married to the 20 inch stainless 416 B&M!

500 MDM short or 50 B&M Long+?

I checked and saw that the 50 B&M Long was 2.250" thanks to the great samples you sent. Was thinking why not a 2.4" version? I know your special bullets go to the same OAL but was thinking for the majority of the short stubbie 500 bullets at 3" max OAL.

Hey Boomy

I suppose that 2.4 for a .500 would be fine, long as overall length is kept below 3" for the magazine of Winchesters in WSM. 2.4 comes right up, just a touch over the bottom of the shoulder so cutting and trimming would be a little more difficult, but not enough so to not do it.

The reason I do 2.25 (actually I trim ALL to 2.240 to begin) is that with the following cartridges--458-416-and now 9.3 that 2.24 is about max length to seat those sort of bullets to the proper lengths-to fit in the magazine. The original specs for the 458 and 416 was 2.295, after some issues with seating bullets proper in the magazine, I shortened.

I also found it far easier and way more uniform for all the brass to be cut and trimmed to 2.240---then if you wanted a 50 B&M it was ready to go, load up--for all the rest 458-416-9.3 just put them in the size die, form them, load them and shoot! All brass the same length for all 4 cartridges! Then the basic brass could be used for any of them!

Now don't want to spill the beans just yet, as both Capoward and I are working on a new 50 MDM. A 2.6 to 2.65 inch version! Right now Capoward-Jim is taking the lead on this as I am having some issues with putting this particular cartridge on a STANDARD Winchester M70. Jim is not working with a M70 so he is proceeding and taking the lead on it. How this ends is still a question, as we are working this end for the common standard action winchesters, so far not good on that front.

Another new addition will not be too long in the making is the 375 B&M. JohnOMS is taking the lead on that one and will be doing all the development of that cartridge. I suppose it will do as well as the 9.3 has so far. But that is coming soon too, and will have none of the issues of the 50 MDM--the 375 B&M is based on the same WSM action as the other B&Ms.

Still waiting on the new reamer for the upgraded version of the 500 MDM--shorter neck to .350, move shoulder forward, gets rid of the bullet bulge, which I don't like, as you know right from the beginning!!!! That will be solved with pushing the shoulder up, shorter neck! At that point will have my 2 rifles reamed for that, no issue and then I will start building 3 new rifles in 500MDM.

But to answer, I suppose one can do a 2.4 on the WSM without too much issue. Have to watch the flat nose soft lead bullets available, catch on the bottom of the feed ramp, even at 2.240 or 2.25.

Michael

A standard length big bore on the RUM case.... kinda like a fatter 470 AR
So only issue is feeding eh...
Thanks for the reply

Boom

Couple of things, not on a RUM. Different case. Not a feeding issue, retaining in the magazine issue. Feeding is not an issue. At least not with the Winchester. Retaining 3 down is the biggest problem right now. However, Capoward may not have that issue, just don't know yet, he is working on it. Actually we are both working on it from two different angles, but he has the lead on it. If I can't get it to work on the Winchester then Capoward will definitely be the lead on this cartridge, and I will just assist. If we move forward with it and it works both ways, then there will be two sources for it too, not a bad thing either. If it gets moving, we will let you know!

Yes, the big deal is to get a .500 on a standard action, functions, feeds, and retains.

It may come to it that I stick with the Winchester in the 500 MDM. Big difference in a standard Winchester and the action they did on the 300 RUM guns.

Michael

Not on a RUM case eh... Might want to ask El Jeffe about the 500 AR on his Ruger Mk II
Good luck!

I get you on all the B&M cases being the same length but thought you might have left some extra boom room on the table by not going 2.4" with the stubbier bullets.

Keep on truckin!

Boom,

Not a Rigby case either and at this point we’re holding off on identifying the specific case.

The .500” caliber 50 MDM TiN coated reamers and gauges are on order, one week down. A single set of case forming and full length resizing dies will be produced once the reamers are received. Then it’ll be off to gunsmith consultation with spec case dummies in hand loaded with the horror of all horrors large diameter metaplat FN solids and similarly dimensioned HPs. If the cartridges fail to retain within and flawlessly feed from a Sound Metal Products new magazine in a M98 then little is lost in the endeavor other than some time and money.

If the 50 MDM works flawlessly with the M98 as we’re hoping, then reamers and gauges will be off to Michael for Brian’s use at SST so that we have a single source for reamer and gauge sets for the new cartridge.

We’re not trying to be secretive though it may appear so, we’re just attempting to dampen interest in the new cartridge until we can prove or disprove its design...and we're a few months away from doing so.