Michael,
10-4

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:

quote:

to have shown short snippets of actual bullet impact upon DG animals…

Jim, I have never allowed video on any of my hunts. Many many times I wished I would have had just exactly what you are talking about, but I hate video. I am quite sure as soon as the camera rolls I would do something completely STUPID! No way in hell I am going to get caught being stupid! I may tell you I did something Stupid, But I ain't gonna show you I did something Stupid!


Would have liked to have video of the elephant gonna eat me, but then again, all that caused by me doing something STUPID!!!!!!! Or maybe the next day the buffalo gonna eat me, but I did not do anything stupid on that one! But I might have if cameras were rolling!!!!!!! HEH........


Coyote

quote:

When hit by the CEB 345 gr. it was more like a explosion it was hard to tell how much penetration because the pieces were no bigger than a soft ball. A couple pedals were found on the table top.

Now we have found yet another use for the NonCons-- "Ice Busters"

quote:

The great part come spring there's no mess at my range.

Now that is something to consider! No Mess, No Fuss Cleanup! Very Excellent. Next time line a couple of blocks together and try one of the 375 gr Solids! YES.......

Big Fun----It was Matthews Birthday this past weekend, I gave him the 50 B&M Super Short that he used in Australia for his buffalo shooting. He was rather pleased with that. Little Gun, big hammer!

Michael

Mike, having spent a total of the best part of a month in the bush hunting with you I can quite confidently state you have little to worry about from any camera.

It is in fact a shame, and I say this sincerely, that some of the Herd Reduction hunting we have done together wasn't filmed for prosperity for several reasons.

Particularily your recent visit with the boys and Sam.
Some of the knock-downs and running shots with the stubby little rifles and Sam's double.... very impressive.

Please pass on my best regards to Matthew on his recent birthday and my congrats to him for scoring that little majic .50 that he works so well with !

quote:

Mike, having spent a total of the best part of a month in the bush hunting with you I can quite confidently state you have little to worry about from any camera.

Oh, you know what, I forgot all about my "Indian Stalk" on that big redskin!


We did get some video, but no way that is going to show up anywhere! LOL....................
HEH HEH..................

I don't care much for the camera, until its down and posed proper! Last video was way back when on an elephant. Absolutely perfect side brain, 31 yards, elephant drops rear first, classic, worked the action on that Win perfect, brass came flying out so fast you had to slow the video to see the blur, shot in the chest twice quickly to pay the insurance, going good up to that point. Now I am reloading the rifle, and for some reason unknown to me, my right foot is up on tippy toes while loading? Probably making set to move forward as loading, but it looked like I was getting ready to do a ballerina dance of some sort--- Looked stupid to me! I said,, No More Video!

One time before that was with a bear in California. Bear in a cave, so I got down at the mouth and put two quick 250 gr 45 Colt in there on the bear, jumped up on a rock just above the entrance, bear comes out pissed off and not happy, and I laced his ass with 4 more of those, and he decided that was enough and rolled down the mountain. This was all on video, at least to the point that the bear was coming out of the hole--at which point there was no more video, and when it was all done, I turned around and there was no one there??????? Shortly after the shooting stopped, I turned around and here come my 4 guys around the side of the mountain, every single one of them had taken off! When that bear came out of the hole, they left, Lou was supposed to be doing video, as soon as the bear started out, no more video!

HEH...........

Hey, Sam and Mike are pitching up this morning, we will be on the range all day doing some shooting, have one test we are conducting, and then whatever else is on their agenda. It should be a fun day, lots of powder getting burned and lot's of bullets going down range!

Will report on our results later!

Michael

(Now let's see. I live in the home of Space Command, have controlled satallites, have friends there, and Michael has a cell phone that should have a GPS locator in it. Next time he is on safari, could get a SAT locked on him and then we'd have the video whenever he gets a big one...or does something stupid!)

Now, on a serious note, if you ever decide to do a book, I'll volunteer as editor. Spelling, grammatical mistakes, and format. Hey, what else can a University professor offer?
Max

At DSC Michael turned his cell phone on--the last time it had been on was the previous May-

-he's hard to track

Michael

Am fiddling with my 416 and a friend is trying to talk me into putting a drop-box mag on it. Not sure I need the extra rounds, but my main concern i stat it retains and feeds slick now and i would hate to mess that up. Any thoughts on extra rounds in these short actions?

quote:

Originally posted by Cross L:
At DSC Michael turned his cell phone on--the last time it had been on was the previous May-

-he's hard to track

Yeah Max, gonna be kinda hard to track me on MY CELL phone! Cross is correct, it had not been turned on in 6-8 months before DSC--and then at DSC it was only on for about 1/2 day, turned off, put away, and Hell I don't even know where it is right now???? HEH....... I hate a GDamned Telephone!



Cross

No, don't know anything about the extra rounds and drop box, never been done. I'd say that if you were going to mess with any of the B&Ms the 416s and down would be the ones. They are not so difficult in the retain and feed department. Maybe go for a 20 round magazine before they get banned? LOL...................

Michael

Just kinda messing about today, taking a little break you might say. So I was sorting out some scopes, found this camo Nikon my buddy John had left here for the last couple of years. Nice 2X7, small, and decided to hell with him, I was going to check out what this looked like on my Most Favorite 416 ever, that little 18 inch camo 416 B&M of mine. It is so good I took some new photos;






Holy Cow, 8 lbs total, including scope, 38 inches overall length. Of course 416 B&M is at its best with 20 inches, but I will take the sacrifice of a few fps to get this. I have shot 400s at over 2300 in it anyway, and easy run 350s at over 2400. So....... I wonder how the new 225 gr BBW#13 Is going to do in this???

Michael

Michael

Looks great. I am gonna bet that when you get that 225 Non-Con up and running right that you and the boys are going to use the 416 more than you think--

Yeah hadn't thought about a 20 round mag--wouldnt need to wear a belt slide then---

I do like the camo scope and stock combination. Now you need the stock's camo pattern on a scope to really set it off...

Cross

Man, I love this little gun, naturally my most favorite 416 ever. Yes, with that 225 up and running, this will be absolutely a wicked combination. I think about North America, perfect for Alaska and of course about as good a plains game rifle ever devised with that bullet I believe-- out shooting plains game, and Mr. Buffalo comes around-_No problems! 8 lbs with that scope! By the way, this Nikon, not even sure what model it is, is SO CLEAR that I can see without my glasses clear as can be!!! Incredible. Small little scope too, perfect fit on this rifle.

My buddy John was here today, messing around, same as me. He decided he wanted a 30/30 to plink around with, maybe shoot some pigs. So I had one, John and I don't trade or anything like that, I just send him home with my stuff and when he is done he brings it back. So I had a plain jane old 30/30 I had picked up somewhere, Winchester of course. Never fired it, been sitting in the cabinet for 20 yrs I imagine. So we took it to the range, just a few Remington Factory 150 gr something loads, 1/2 inch hi, dead center at 25 yds with the irons that were on it, no adjustments. Factory 150 was doing 2281 fps, you know me, gonna collect data on EVERYTHING, no matter what. So I had some 100 gr Raptors loaded, 38/H-4198. Fired two of them, 1 hole 25 yds, 1/4 inch hi, dead center---- 3072 fps!!!
20 inch barrel.........

I dare say the most wicked 30/30 to ever go to the field!!!!!!

Have to make a 30/30 B&M---HEH HEH.............

M

Our Boy Brent has a fellow up his way that does that dip camo film, whatever, I am sure you guys
know what I am trying to talk about!!!! Anyway, I have 5 plain old black Ultimate stocks I am sending
to Brent Monday, this camo is incredible, I may loose my rifle if I set it down! I want that white/snow pattern on mine!!!!!!!!!!! Man, that will look great...................

M

That 416 B&M is a any weather hunting machine, just don't set it down you will need a metal detector to find it.

Did SSK do eletroless nickel on the rings ?

White/snow camo a guy like me from the north snow country could use it. But a gentleman from South Carolina ????

Hey Coyote

No, the rings are plain old Leupolds.

Man, I can't wait to see these stocks, this snow camo pattern is very very nice, just looks good, and anyway I like to be prepared you know, one never knows when we might get a snow storm here in South Carolina??? And if we do-- I will be Ready!

Paul

Not allowing any videos on any hunt is a smart move.

It shows a sign of true hunters maturity over youtube debility.

Pyzda

I am not trying to advert this, but just show you guys what I am excited about on these stocks, this snow camo pattern. This is the brochure that Brent sent to me.





Brent is having one done, I am having at least 4 done. Think I will do two in the brown and two in the white.

On the plus side of the camo, it will make those black plastic stocks feel cooler when it gets close to 100 degrees F

Stainless Steel gun with snow/camo

I'am was going to work with the .50 300gr. BBW#13 it takes up quite a bit of case capacity in the 50 B&M SS.

Where should I start with Lil'Gun ?

What velocities should I expect ?

Coyote

Yes, that 300 #13 NonCon I am coming up short on data here myself, I worked with it in the other rifles, but not the Super Short. It does take up case capacity, like other NonCons seated deep and using the tip in the magazine. No doubt, but in the long run, 50 yds and beyond, it is better than seating out, getting case capacity and starting 125 fps faster. That tip makes a huge difference.

I don't know, lets start at 45/Lilgun and work our way UP..........

I would think we can touch 2300-2350 or better??? Just guessing........


If I get time, I will try and look at this as well.

Michael

Michael,
You like that snow pattern eh? Where you going to be where there is snow!?. I am thinking of ding the B&M logo on mine, still not sure what color I am going to use, something that will work well sticking out of a leopard blind, not that a super short will stick out very far at all. You can pick any color in the world you like, even pink for Mercedes rifle and they will work all the chromas to match. I leave on monday the 11th, so depending on when the stocks get here on weather i het them to the zero detect boys before I go or after I het back from Zim.

Michael,
I did a little case capacity calculating, using water weight to volume.

Seating to proper band, case capacity difference between the 300 #13 NonCon and 335(345) #13 NonCon. The 300 #13 NonCon takes up 10% more case capacity.

quote:

Originally posted by coyote wacker:
Michael,
I did a little case capacity calculating, using water weight to volume.

Seating to proper band, case capacity difference between the 300 #13 NonCon and 335(345) #13 NonCon. The 300 #13 NonCon takes up 10% more case capacity.

Coyote

OK, normally Sunday is lay around, nap, drink Shine, don't do much. But now, you have done it, I am on the range, 46/Lilgun 300 #13 HP seated to the middle of the top band, 2261 fps. Going back with 48 next, 50 next and will get back to you.

Brent

Stocks and that 500 MDM Ammo is headed your way tomorrow, Fed Ex. Don't worry about it, get them to your guy when you can, before or after Zim, no problems. Sending 5 stocks, 4 WSM and 1 Super Short, I want 3 Snow Camos and 1 brownish whatever. You pick the best of the WSM stocks for your rifle. Make that Super Short Snow!

I also have a new idea for a gunkote rifle too, sending my brand new 50 Super Short back to SSK for the guy to get a new color.

Coyote, be back shortly, stay tuned.

Michael

Rather an odd bird this .500 300 gr BBW#13 NonCon in the 50 B&M Super Short????

Yes, I ran into something I can't fully explain just yet.

Started this data at 46/Lilgun, seated deep, work with tip in the magazines. Excellent Load, 2262 fps, plenty of room to move up. So on to 48/Lilgun-2315 fps, moving in the right direction. 50/Lilgun--2318 fps ???, no pressure signs?? 52/LilGun--2307 fps, still no pressure??? Not moving at all???

OK, let me try some 296. 50/WW 296--SO COMPRESSED that the HP closes up, can't even put a tip in!!! 2310 fps. 52/WW 296-- 2350 fps, but so compressed the HP closes, NO TIP. Seems that WW 296 just will NOT COMPRESS, no pressure signs, but what is the point if you can't put the tip in and run through the magazine, with this bullet! Back to LilGun--It compresses very easy and no issues.

53/Lilgun--2260 fps, hell this is going backwards??? How is that possible???? Still NO PRESSURE signs. OK, back to 50/Lilgun--Now it drops, 2263 fps????

OK, must be this rifle. This is a brand new rifle, fired the first time today. Let me get another older tried and true 50 Super Short.

OK, now got old Faithful here, back to 53/LilGun, I bet its gonna rip now! 2226 fps-?????? Really going backwards, so it's not the gun?????????

OK, maybe with this bullet, Lilgun, and a Federal 210 PRimer, I am just not burning proper, so let me change to a Fed 215 Magnum Primer. OK, back to 48/Lilgun Fed 210 for test--2285 fps--OK this is getting better, now the Federal 215 and 48/LilGun--2294 fps, ok thats a little bit, not much but a little, and good numbers, not so wild. Now, 52/LilGun and Federal 215---2285 fps???? NO GAIN, NOTHING???

OK, I don't know----- This is just

This bullet, in this cartridge, with these powders is just not working and I don't have an answer-

OK, I am going back to the 335 #13 NoNCon in this cartridge the one for the Super Shorts, long nose projection, W23SS for 2291 fps.

Seems to me MY 50 Super Shorts don't like this deep seated bullets? Rather odd. I did work with these 300s in the 50 B&M as well, and as I recall was not so impressed with them there either, liking the 335 version as good or better.

Coyote, in my opinion today, these deep seated bullets are just not going to work good in our 50 Super Shorts. I think we have to stay with the 335 W23SS, add a tip to the first one in the chamber, about the best I can come to right now.

Michael

Michael,
I didn't mean for you to do lab work today I feel bad that your day of R-R&S your in the lab.

Maybe just maybe with my longer barrel will make a difference.

Is there un-burnt powder on the floor ?

I'am really surprised that the Fed 215 didn't make a difference. I would think velocity and pressure would move up.

Maybe the extra 35 gr. of bullet weight is just enough to help pressures build up.

The 300gr. you sent I'am going to see what I come up with.

I'am also going to try using Fed. 215 with the 345 gr. bullets just to see if there is a difference velocity or pressure signs.

With the 335 W23SS with a tip first with all the power of the 50 B&M SS, the second without a tip wouldn't be needed.

Coyote

Lab WOrk, Lab Play, I can take my R&R on the range! HEH..... No worries, would not do it if I did not want to.

In all the years I have messed with this stuff, this is the first time I ever seen anything like this. One sees the point of no gains or little gain at peak pressure, but I never seen one go backwards and show no pressure by going up in powder charge???? That's just crazy--that can't happen-yet it did, with two rifles?

Has to be some sort of anomaly with that bullet/cartridge combination???? I can't think of anything else other than "I don't Know"

Yes, I knew the 215 would change it---Not....

I think the next step with the 300s that I take is to seat them OUT Further with those same charges, not so compressed and see what happens.

I did not look for unburned powder, but will.

Coyote

OK, tried one more thing with the 300BBW#13, LiLgun, and the 50 B&M Super Short.

Back to 53/LilGun. Seated the bullet OUT--- 3rd band down from the top--Two bands out, two bands in. 53/LilGun No Tip. 2438 fps.

Went to 55/LilGun, added a tip, 2 bands in, 2 bands out, 2467 fps, not that much of a gain, and no pressure to either one.

I would guess that with this bullet LilGun does not react well to compression. While pressure is not an issue, it just seems It will NOT burn correctly that heavily compressed.

So, with 2 bands out, this will not fit the magazines of course with Talon W Tip Added. This is a pretty good lesson for the 50 Super Short, that I did not even know about.

Michael

Michael,
It looks like the .500 300 gr BBW#13 just need more case capacity to work.

I'am going to go with the .500 335 gr BBW#13 W/ Tip in the chamber, naked in the box.

I shot this buck back in late November. He was chasing 4 does in a field, laser-ed him at 183 yards. Put a .500 345 gr BBW#13 behind the shoulder, he ran about 80 yards. He was pumped up chasing does that's probably why he ran so far. I don't think that the bullet expanded very much, not to much internal damage. But a easy to follow blood trail.

Coyote

quote:

I'am going to go with the .500 335 gr BBW#13 W/ Tip in the chamber, naked in the box.

Yes, the W23SS, I think me too with the Super Short.

That deer, the 345 Discontinued #13 at 183 yds would have went below LVSP--Low Velocity Shear Point. Probably became a Solid at that range. Exactly why I changed the cavity width to get LVSP down, which is now 1550-1600 fps with the 335 W23SS, before becoming solid.

Another point--BBW#13 CANNOT FAIL. The only way a bullet can FAIL--Is to NOT PENETRATE, one does not loose penetration when a #13 NoNCon does not shear, penetration increases, it becomes a BBW#13 Solid! One looses that massive transfer of Trauma however if it don't shear. Worst Case.

How about that?
Michael

OK now back to my little 416 B&M, 18 inch barrel!!!!!!!




Did some serious load data and terminals today with that CEB .416 225 BBW#13 NonCon HP--With Talon
Tips in this 18 inch 416 B&M, and in the 20 inch gun later. Terminals posted now on what, of course, the Terminal Performance Thread.





I picked 4 powders to work with, H-4198, RL 7, H-322 and RL 10X. I only got to complete the H-4198 and RL 7, Time did not allow me to get to the H-322 and RL 10X.

Basics, 70/H-4198 gave me a steady 2905 fps in the 18 inch gun, and 2952 fps in the 20 inch gun, difference of 47 fps, or 23.5 fps per inch of barrel.

72/RL 7 gave me 2926 fps in the 18 inch gun, and 2992 fps in the 20 inch gun, a difference of 66 fps, or 33 fps per inch.

Both of these loads are Max Safe Loads. I actually can get one more grain of powder in with the 18 Inch Camo gun safely, but the 20 inch gun did not like it so good. So, dropped to match the 20 inch gun for max safe. A very good reason for everyone to start some lower than published, your gun may be slightly different than the two of mine. So always drop a few grains, work up.

I was very pleased with these results. From the terminal tests, this bullet would be the perfect North American bullet for big game and or dangerous game, bears and such. Excellent lion/leopard bullet, induces great amounts of trauma, fast, perfect for cats. Plains game, moose, elk what have you--Perfect. Matched with that little 18 inch Camo 416 B&M, makes a pretty darned good setup!
At least it does it for me! Some folks rather have something bigger, I reckon that is fine too, just not for me.

Michael

quote:

At least it does it for me! Some folks rather have something bigger, I reckon that is fine too, just not for me.

Ok so I have a 20 in barrel--I still love it--- :hillbilly:

I have to try these--like you say Michael, since i am shooting the 416 anyway, you may
have just found my everyday,go to, shoot them all bullet.

You did say they work through the magazine with the tip on?


Now to see where the point of impact difference is between these and the 325/350 combo----

Sean

I broke 3000 with that bullet today, but it was getting a bit sticky! Sticky won't do! And the 20 inch is all over 3000. It might be 3000 in your rifle??? 2992 in one of the 20 inch guns I have here. I have another 20 inch gun, Super Grade, need to try it in that one too. Just to see??? WICKED--Like the 250--458 bullet!

Yes, I have my 18 inch gun sighted 1/2 inch hi at 50 with this bullet now, and that is what I am using in that rifle permanently! 18 inch gun no slacker either, 2925 fps!

Work in the magazine with the Talon tip, pretty as you please.

I think they are going to be too HI POI to work with the 350/325s.

Michael

Michael,
I've been going back and forth between 9.3 B&M and a 416 B&M to build on a Ultimate Camo S/S I have.

The CEB .416 225 BBW#13 NonCon HP--With Talon, has help me make up my mind.

quote:

Originally posted by coyote wacker:
Michael,
I've been going back and forth between 9.3 B&M and a 416 B&M to build on a Ultimate Camo S/S I have.

The CEB .416 225 BBW#13 NonCon HP--With Talon, has help me make up my mind.

Assuming the new 225 works out--416,416,416,416,416,416, and if you want one more get a 458 SS lol

quote:

Originally posted by coyote wacker:
Michael,
I've been going back and forth between 9.3 B&M and a 416 B&M to build on a Ultimate Camo S/S I have.

The CEB .416 225 BBW#13 NonCon HP--With Talon, has help me make up my mind.

Coyote

Hey, I am standing beside you buddy! I CONCUR 100%. I would choose the 416 B&M every day over the 9.3 B&M. Take a look at my post on terminals this morning, my statistics on animals I have taken, and it will clearly show which way I lean. While I think the 9.3 B&M is a great medium caliber, great little rifle, hell it is still a rat gun any way you cut it. It cannot, as NO medium caliber can, cross over and be a BIG BORE, no matter what bullet you put in it, it is still a medium and good for medium chores, 416 starts to cross over to the heavies and is truly a versatile caliber, able to do both, medium and heavy work, and do both well. Cross has educated me on 416 B&M, while I still will go to 458-500 for the heavies, Cross proved to me there is no dust gathering on the 416 B&M in that department!

This 225 BBW#13 NonCOn HP, with the Talon Tip adds to the versatility of the 416 B&M, and all other 416s out there as well.

I told Dan to get it into production, and on the website, along with the 250 #13 in .458 as well. Two Big Big WINNERS in both these bullets.......

Michael

Cross, and other 416 B&M guys, of special note, I started the test with NEW, Formed in the die only brass, and fired up to 8 Generations of data with that same brass, zero issues of head separation with H-4198 and RL 7 loads. Just a note, FYI..........

Michael

BOTH, Plus a 50 of some sort

quote:

Originally posted by coyote wacker:
Michael,
I've been going back and forth between 9.3 B&M and a 416 B&M to build on a Ultimate Camo S/S I have.

The CEB .416 225 BBW#13 NonCon HP--With Talon, has help me make up my mind.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by brent ebeling:
BOTH, Plus a 50 of some sort

Oh I have a 50 covered when I get the want (need), several Winchester 70 300 RUM's sitting in the rack.

quote:

several Winchester 70 300 RUM's sitting in the rack

Hmmmmm...........??? Sam directed me to one here on AR this morning in the classified.

Check went out today for it...

Don't let anything happen to however many you have on that rack.... I know what we can do
with those!!!!!!

Brings my stash of those up to 9 now.

Michael

quote:

Originally posted by coyote wacker:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by brent ebeling:
BOTH, Plus a 50 of some sort

Oh I have a 50 covered when I get the want (need), several Winchester 70 300 RUM's sitting in the rack.

You know I have been rolling around the 9.3 my self. I have a 500 MDM, what a weapon, and a 458SS built on a wsm action on the way. I have to admit the 416 with this bullet does look interesting. Just how many B&M rifles does a fellow need? please do not answer that question in front of my wife!!!

Pssst... If she's not looking - you need at least one in every cartridge...

quote:

Originally posted by capoward:
Pssst... If she's not looking - you need at least one in every cartridge...

How does the saying go "Out of sight out of mind"