revised 728/10 -- .498 groove, .492 bore -- and i am going to revise the jeffe conture to match the ruger SHANK profile, so you can just reuse a ruger stock
Just to DO IT and have it done right.
I am working on a NEW Caliber

Just to keep things in the vien of misnamed calibers, this 49 caliber is .492 bore, .498 groove, 1:12 twist ONLY (if i am buying the tooling) bore

The first round, call the .490 AccRel, will be my 500 AccRel necked down to .498, no other changes.

I need 10 orders for dies, barrels, and reamer rentals to get this thing started.

Once I receive the 10 orders, I will place the order for the tooling.

As this is a group buy, all the barrels will be the "Jeffe" CZ heavy profile -- which is the CZ profile, including "washer" for sight base and recoil lug, cut from 1.5" stock, 23" long, CM, 12 twist.

Who want's to get in on this?

"What to do for bullets" .. swage down .500 bullets, of course, or custom turned ones.

cast .500 bullets, at .500, will be perfect.

there it is, cali legal big bore.


This will be whatever McGowen charges

Reamer rental will be $30 - paid in advance

Dies will be $125

Would this be a good companion to the S&W 500? Never slugged the S&W but sounds like bullets may be compatable.
Rodney.

Rodney,
swage dies for -.002 would be about 100 bucks from CH4d.. just a pushthrough resizer ..

woudl work out, all the way around

jeffe,

sounds verrrrry interesting. What will the approximte cost run (if I provide the action)for a barreled action? For the newer folks here, would you run down the history of the ACCREL cartridges?

thanks bud,

Rich
Buff Killer

Here's a great opportunity for all those who live in states that restrict you to sub-.50 caliber rifles to stick your thumb in government's eye!

Way to go, Jeffe!
George

Why not also do the .498/.600OK while we are at it. Then there will be no question as to whats the most powerful sub-.50 cal cartridge. I'll make swaging and reloading dies free for the first 10 guys to put up the cash for the barrel buy. I have already done a .499/.600OK so I'll need to get a new reamer anyway as the one I have is a homemade 1/2 reamer but so what, I'll eat the cost. It will do quite a few barrels. I have swaged .500S&W bullets down and know that works.Jeffe I'm in for a barrel! Lets Hope the wannabe's cough up the loot to actually make the most powerfull sub .50 caliber rimless bolt action cartridge in existance( for now). Just in time for the Montana PH actions! Get in or STFU.-Rob

Thanks Rich
here is the drawing of the 500 AccRel -- I haven't posted to my website the .490 yet. take .012 off the neck diameter to get there.

Why call it the .490? That's the bore diameter, and will cause LESS emotion for baggage checkers.



This case is a shortened Rigby case, 2.65" case, and 3.4 max OAL, 130ish grains of H20 capacity. It fits in a standard action, uses standard diameter dies, and uses readiliy avialable rigby cases.

For the 490AccRel
I just spoke with Manson, and Dave is good to go, as well. Also, the die maker is ready to get rolling. McGowen is only waiting for 10 orders to get the tooling on order.

I will ask one of the die makers to also make a -.002 pushthrough die to make it easy to use .500 bullets. This means you take a .500 bullet, run it ONCE through your press, and BANG, its .498"

Step right up, fellas -- If you want the max legal under .500, here you go.

Rob -- that's a fine offer! I figure I'll just start the caliber and the first wildcat on it, then we can move right along..
I am envisioning the
.498/OK
.498 Gibbs
.498 Jeffe
.498 Weatherby
.498 Rigby/Mbogo
and .490 Accrel!

Jeffe- I'm sure Macifej and Nohbozo manufacturing will be able to provide a full line of .498 monometal design bullets in 500-600gr weights for these new cartridges including a reversible DARWIN design! Maybe also a ultra high BC version to exceed the .408 Chey-Tac ballistics at all known ranges in the sub-orbital vicinity!-Rob

Is there a reason .500" bullets cannot be used in California? This was some of the reason behind the 500 KILL ALL. Dies and reamers have been made for this bellted RUM case.

498 BMG is what is missing in the list. THAT is what a lot of people will want.

Boomy,
.500 COULD be next -- so, its UNDER .500 .. and if you realy want a belted rum case (which aint common as rain water) you could make it the .490 stackemdeep

The 498 will keep Macifej's machines busy

I've chatted with lawyers about this and the concensus is .500 isillegaln Ca but .499 isnt although there is a scientific argument that couldbe made that .499 rounds to .50. Thus tobe safe .498 is a good compromise. We are also talking about a common bolt action rifle not a .50BMG based action. BTW the .499 BMG has been done by others already.-Rob

Right on the money, Rob .. the .498 CAN't be confused with a .500 ... it's patently NOT and it can be measured as different... it's not just a label on the barrel, its truely the PATRIOT's bore ...
It's NOT a DD, as its under .500, by any measure, not even close.

It's not currently outlawed as its UNDER those laws

it DOES have a potentially good bullet selection, with a resizer

what's not to love?

Step right up Fella's, let's get this thing moving!

So I need to resize the .500" bullets by 1 thou and them I can shoot them in a .500" barrel for Cali legal right???

Ranger Rick makes beautiful 700 and 600 grain cast bullets for the larger cases.

TWO THOU boomy ..
.500-.498 =.002
no, don't say "per side" its still incorrect terms

the barrel is also in question..
So, rather than skirt the law, COMPLY

.498 contoured, CM barrels, as described
$200 each, in order of 10, custom profiled

.490 AccRel reloading Dies will be
$100 ON THE INITIAL ORDER only $125 thereafter

Brass - use horandy rigby ... get some on order

A resizer should be between 100 and 150 -- but I'll check with the maker. call it $125
$30 for reamer rental

$455 gets you well on the way to an all states legal caliber, that has a great selection of bullets, and is UNIQUE .. you KNOW you'll be of the first people to EVER have one.

Step lively, fellas, while this can be shipped to cali!

This is a great 10,000th post.

THERE IS NO "OVER 50" RESTRICTION IN THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA..!!!

Let me repeat so all the internet loonies out there without a clue don't misunderstand.

THERE IS NO "OVER 50" RESTRICTION IN THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA..!!!

Does everyone understand what that means ...??

Bad information is perpetuated by guys who didn't bother to read the Statute(s) ...or someone's third rate lawyer looking for a paycheck.

Regarding bore size, California mirrors Federal law as interpreted by ATF via GCA 1968.

The relevant reference:

Article 4 - Chapter 2.5-12301-A3

Defers to Section 479.11 of Title 27 of the Federal Code.

The ATF spells this out in their annual publication 5300.5 as does the California DOJ website here:

http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/dwcl/12301.php

Additionally, I have a (2) letters from the Director of the ATF Technology Branch confirming this. I've also had my local ATF Investigator sit on my living room couch with a 2-Bore case in her hand.

You guys need to GET A LIFE or at least some grade school research skills and stop spreading BULLSHIT..!!

May I humbly suggest a .4985" groove so jacketed bullets could be used safely when spingback on a bullet happens...

Is this being called the 490 caliber?

Jay --
Two words
Randy Barrett

Boomy
Its a 490 caliber
.498 is the groove .. just to prevent any issues...

Actually Jay is correct as the ban is defined for the .50BMG cartridge only. A 510 bullet in any other caliber than .50BMG is just fine. In fact any variation on the .50BMG that will not allow a std mil spec .50BMG round to chamber is technically legal to own in Ca. That includes tight necked target rifles. I talked extensively to their DOJ when I lived there. Of course you get to go to jail first then let the lawyers duke it out to the tune of your house. California does have a over .60 caliber law however. 12ga Shotguns defined as a gun that can fire a std 2 3/4 inch std shotgun shell rifled or not are exempt. THINK 12GaFh. Certain other blackpowder cartridges may also be considered exempt like 2 bores, 4 bores and blackpowder cannons.-Rob

Is that .620" diameter or .600" diameter for the ban?

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
Jay --
Two words
Randy Barrett

Boomy
Its a 490 caliber
.498 is the groove .. just to prevent any issues...

The thread title says 498 caliber still.

So... 490 Caliber nomenclature and bore and 498 diameter bullet and groove.

The law is written as .60. They dont understand bore vs groove diameters either. DOJ deceided to remain silent on the whole issue of the .600NE or .600Ok. Technically a .620 is illegal in Ca without sporting cartridge exemption paperwork. Good luck getting that paperwork approved either in Ca even when you have a federal exemption ( which I have). Some guy actually made a .599/.600OK to get around that dilema. Me, I moved to a gun friendly state.-Rob

A .498 Darwin-style reversible CupPoint/FN of about 550-grains would have to be outstanding in a 1:12" Twist.

Hornady makes some .500"/500-grain handgun bullets (and more) to size down to .498 caliber for plinking.

I'll have to pass because I have yet to finish:
.395 GSC
500 Mbogo #2
.458 Ruger

It ain't easy being eccentric.

Them 500 grain hornadys will be good for plinking and then some! Michael458 has fired them pretty fast I think around 2,200 and he says they stay together pretty good.

550 grain copper switcharoo points will be the do all bullet for sure.

Expansion of the cup point to about 600 will be a hog masher.

This 490 AccRel sound interesting...

I built a 9.3x62 on a VZ-24 M98 action last year...be nice to have a swap barrel setup for it...and not have to build a complete rifle.

Question is how much work is required on the rails to let the Rigby case feed without messing up the feeding of the 9.3X62 cartridge???

Any one have a thought/experience with this???

I might pony up the shekels for this project as I was thinking about doing a 500 Jefferys, 500 Van Horn or something similar in the .510 caliber this year anyway.

Thanks

Luck on you projects.

Foobar- Gonna be alot of work on a VZ24 to get reliable feeding. Glad to see you will step up to the plate though. Good for you!~ Wonder why all the wannabe experts with lots of advice and NO REAL EXPERIENCE are not doing the same thing? How disapointing! Its just easier Googling facts and fiction rather than actually putting your money into a major project I guess. Oh yeah I forgot, its so expensive easier and cheaper to just pretend.-Rob

Gotta say after scimming through 89 pages of current gun laws pertaining to California there is mention several times of bans of 50 caliber either by measurement or designation. Laws seem to differ throughout the state according to local areas.
Rodney.

Rodney- READ more Carefully! THERE is no law APPLICABLE in california TODAY to .50 caliber other than to the .50 BMG ban. LOCAL AREAS have no legal status to ban other.50 calibers and none have sucessfully done so. Some tried and THE STATE made THEM rescind the bans. WRONG WRONG WRONG. Skimming the laws and understanding them are two different things. You are not a recognized expert on Ca firearms laws or PENDING legislation and please stop pretending to be. Call the Ca DOJ and get the facts from them pse. DID YOU READ MACIFEJ's POST. STOP TRYING TO SPREAD BULLSHIT. THERE IS NO LAW IN CALIFORNIA BANNING OVER .50 Caliber cartridges.-Rob

The state overall does not, I recognize that. Within the 89 pages it breaks down into local areas, cities and other incorporated areas. I will read it further, boring as it is. The information I have is on a disc that I recieved earlier in my annual ATF care package. I'm not pretending to be anything, especially concerning California.
Rodney.

Rodney- Get the freakin facts! Dont try and make up your interpretation of California law ,from TEXAS , especially at the city or local area level, for god sakes by SKIMMING laws and pending legislation! No offense, but your interpretation of these laws means less than do-do to us! Did you read what I said about the STATE forcing localities like OAKLAND to recind illegal ordnances? Call the state DOJ if you doubt what Jay and I are saying! THEY and I REPEAT, THEY are The ONLY source of ACCURATE INFORMATION ON EXISTING( That means inforceable) gun laws in Ca. I will say this ONE MORE TIME for the COMPREHENSION IMPARED. THERE IS NO OVER .50 caliber LAW currently enforceable IN Ca except SPECIFICALLY for the MIL STD .50BMG ban. You can't buy a new .50BMG in Ca but REGISTERED .50BMGs are LEGAL to OWN! You can make shoot, own and sell a .510 a2, a 50-70 or .585 Nyati in Ca for example with no problems. I'm not a Ca firearms lawyer, nor do I pretend to be one. I simply call the DOJ and ask for the facts. They are the experts in Ca! What happens in the future is anyones guess but for now the .50 caliber is not Banned in Ca.Neither is the .505 Gibbs, .500 jeffery, .500a2, 12Ga( rifled or smoothbore )or the black powder .58 muzzelloader or the legendary 2or 4 bore.
The purpose of this thread was to get people excited about a new cartridge and bore not to argue whats legal in Ca. -Rob

and, well, these will be the maximum <.500 rounds out there..

and IF there is a .500 ban, then these will be UNDER it..

Oh, yeah - there's a couple places THINKING about banning +.500 ... don't get caught with your brass out!

I don't stand a chance, already have my brass hanging out on all of them! The 50 B&M big time hanging! I never thought about it, never entered my mind, by naming the 50 B&M! Look at that, what a dumbass (me). Some of you know, the B&M story, but my life long pal sparked the idea for the 50 B&M, name Billy--my name Michael! Wish I would have at least called it 500! I have never been denied going to other countries, nor ever had a problem within the US-but when going to another country with the 50 B&M--if I get permits ahead of time then I send photos of the gun, ammo, and even comparison photos of 50 BMG as opposed to 50 B&M--with a very lengthy letter explaining the entire cartridge, name, diameter everything. Probably had a called it 500 B&M I would not have had too many issues, a 495-499 B&M I would have had ZERO issues. Never seen the South African Police, Zimbabwe Customs, or TSA that had a micrometer, much less know how to use one! Of course the issue today with the TSA is a dead one, but I would never mark my ammo 50 B&M on the outside of a well sealed and taped ammo box, and in fact many times have marked it 458 or something on the outside! In Zimbabwe the last few years when they inspect ammo it is in the dark anyway, as the power is always off Heh! They can't half read anyway! In Tanzania they don't care about anything except the amount of ammo so they can charge you the fee! South Africa counts sometimes, but pays no attention to head stamps, and with a pre approved permit they don't care, just check the serials of the guns and go! But it would have been easier travel at .498.

Now I won't be jumping on because I am so heavy in the .500s anyway as this little group probably knows, but Jeffe it is a good idea. As for bullets we already have some very good ones CNC that JD and I have worked with, and I continue to work with. The 550 Solid that I am using for the 500 MDM would be perfect for this, just shave off like boom says a .001 on each side, and you are set to jet! I think I sent you some photos of this bullet, and I think Boom actually has a sample of in hand? So extremely suitable bullets are near no issue at all.

If you make a sizer to size down the current .500s that would be a great idea. I see RIP mentions the 500 Hornady! I have done very extensive tests with this bullet both in the "lab" and in the field on critters. This bullet will 100% sure hold up to muzzle velocities of 2100 fps and hold together, will not separate and hammer what it hits like a freight train. I have shot eland, giraffe, zebra and wildebeast with this bullet and it hammers them to the ground, even giraffe! There are many other bullets out there in .500 that can be worked with too, some reduced, some running pretty fast. I have a tremendous amount of experience with most .500 caliber bullets and know the upper and lower limits in which they are terminally viable, so would be glad to assist in this manner. I would also be happy to assist in getting you guys in touch with some of my guys in getting good and proper bullets sorted out, at .498!

While I won't be on board for building one, you can count on my full support, interest, and assistance if needed--110%.

Michael

I have read this entire thread three times and I still not sure if this is a serious proposal or sarcasm? You all really proposing a whole series of wildcats calibers in 498 for a ban that does not exist? Probably never will.

I was misinformed on the CA law, buts its 3000 miles away and thank god, nothin to do with me. Creation of a 498 will probably add more confusion than do any real good.

I quote the eloquent and unchallenged assertion by Rob:

quote:

. I will say this ONE MORE TIME for the COMPREHENSION IMPARED. THERE IS NO OVER .50 caliber LAW currently enforceable IN Ca except SPECIFICALLY for the MIL STD .50BMG ban.

So...Rob...If I have the required work done to get the Rigby case to feed I will screw it up for feeding the 9.3x62 case...in effect.

Must be a little more than matching the rails to the case taper and widening the front end a bit???...I've only worked with the one M98 action and haven't done all that much research or actual "swear equity" work with the M98 actions...

Lothar Walther has a M98 military sporter barrel available in 416 Rigby so I guessed this type of conversion has been done and is fairly popular for LW to have a "prefit" barrel available for it.

I got the mags for the SMLE 2A to feed the Rigby case...shortened to 2.5"...but I wouldn't gain much over the 458WM having a max 3" COAL even in 50 cal. A 50 cal "something" at 40KCUP was my original intent with the SMLE...a 50 cal "pig thumper".

Anyone try a Savage 110 LA??? I revamped one to use the older 3.6" mag box, 375 H&H case, and stuck a 375 H&H barrel on it...It does a nice job but isn't a DGR in ANY sense of the word...I also have a Ruger LA that is now a 416 Taylor that is slick as you can get.

I'm still hustling for no more than a barrel change for one of my "already done" rifles.

Any ideas...I also have a couple of Rem 700 LA's I can use.

Thanks.

Foobar- Why not just get another VZ-24( good choice there if you must use a M98) and set it up. The mag box will need work too probably as will the follower and the feed ramp. The 9.3X62 and 9.3X64 are deceptively easy cartridges to get to feed in a M98 from my experience requiring little if any rail, ramp or follower work.. Heck they were designed that way. Not so most others. Give it a try and you'll learn alot and I'd be happy to talk you through it. Always happy to help someone who has the guts to actually risk his hard earned money and learn. The Rem 700La's will be easier than a M98 for the .498 AccRel but I would not do a 498/.600Ok on one.
Fritz 454 and I both built .50/.600Ok rifles years ago. Mine was built as a switch barrel on my 100lb unlimited class .50BMG for 1000yrd shooting. The idea was less recoil upsetting the gun off the bags vs the velocity and winddrift advantage of a Tight necked .50BMG varient I had previously used. Fritz built his on a Cz550 I think as a .408 Chey-Tac beater! Heck we started with a Better Case! My best group at 1000yrds was 4.10 inches. With the Higher Bc bullets we can make now it could beat that easily and drift less in the wind.
The .498 Accrel and .498/.600Ok are more of a opportunity for the Wannabe Experts here to actually get into finding out what Big Bore gunbuilding and wildcatting are really about, rather than just Googling and Pretending. Yup it costs money and takes time. But at least they will have actually done something. Anybody can "Design" a "new" cartridge, it takes brains, guts,Time, skill and money to transform it into a working firearm. Till someone has done that they are just a pretender in my book with no qualifications. Doesnt mean they are not nice guys or that i dont like them, just means sorry they have no right to give advice to others on things they have no valid experience with! I like helping people with their projects very much, but have no use for pretenders and it doesnt take long to figure out who is who!-Rob

On the Federal level there is very importantly the over .50 legislation( which is generally considered to include up to.510 groove bullets as I'm told to include the .50BMG) which while somewhat confusing states that any modern self contained( black powder cannons are exempt for example) cartridge over .50 caliber may be considered a destructive device requiring licensing and registration, unless grandfathered as a sporting cartridge which covers most of the old British sporting rounds like the 505Gibbs( its a .505 and less than .510 and thus exempt as I'm told),500 jeffery,.585 Nyati( maybe if documentation exists) .600NE,.700NE. This is a THE CRUX of the problem and a grey area. Currently BATF rulings say .510 is Ok but should they deceide no its really .50, then all non grandfathered .510 cartridges will be considered Destructive Devices maybe including the .50BMG. The .500a2, 550 magnum and yes the .600OK have all been so registered and federal documentation exists to prove they are sporting cartridges and not a DD. Again all 12Ga Shotgun cartridges including Rifled shotguns are specifically exempted. They have ruled the 12gaFh is just a shotgun! So if you develop an over .50 cartridge you need to register it as a sporting cartridge and get it approved before you build a gun. Neal and I have been through this process and it takes time and money! Thats the biggest reason to make a .498 anything and why the .500 S&W, .500 Beowulf and other .499's exist. Again, I'm not a lawyer so this is my take and I could have mis-stated things as the laws are complex. Again, a call to the BATF is the wisest thing to do. The examiners are very helpfull and courteous and I've enjoyed my discussions with them. Expect to talk to lawyers when you get into the grey areas, I know, I have.If you stay under .50 you have no issues. If you go over .50 dont be stupid, get it registered and stay legal. Thus, for example a .585/Gibbs may be legal at the state level but must be registered at the Federal level.Outside the US a under .50 caliber anything will be inherently easier to get approval for period. -Rob

Rob,
You mean I have to get "Sporting Exception" paperwork on the 500 Mbogo?
Jeffe on the 500 AR?
(.510 caliber)