quote:

Originally posted by mart:
Biil,

That makes two of us at least. I am going to carry it for everything I hunt this year even it's still in the white.

Mart

What are you hunting this year Mart?

Snellstrom,

Caribou and moose for sure. I hope to get out for sheep as well and mountain goat. I will take a black bear or grizzly if the opportunity presents itself and hopefully will get out for some late fall bear hunting, weather and time permitting. I have a few days on my next week off to try for a black bear. Friday and Saturday I am tied up piloting a raft for a men's ministry float trip but hoping to get out Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday for some spring bear.

Mart

Old wildcatter wisdom:
Anneal before necking up.
Anneal after necking down.

Here is some new, unfired 35 Whelen brass (RP-make) that I annealed prior to necking it up, or fire-forming it straight away to 400 Whelen,
if Rusty ever gets my rifle built.

I refuse to spend much on annealing machinery.
Used some wire to build a rack for the propane torch.
Use an electric screw driver with a socket that is a loose fit for the case.
Spin the case with the flame at the middle of the neck.
Drop the case out of the socket as soon as the neck glows red in a darkenrd room.
Aluminum foil pan floats in a steel pan of water.
Drop the hot case onto the aluminum pan and it cools soon.
Top of a chest freezer in the garage is a well ventilated work place.





The brass is just as it appears after cooling.
No soot build up.
Pretty uniform annealing.
No Tempilac fussin'.
No $599-dollar annealing machine.

The annealing looks pretty good; very interesting and cost effective solution...

quote:

Any fresh thoughts on the .400 Whelen

Yep

its an answer in search of a question

quote:

Originally posted by Cross L:

quote:

Any fresh thoughts on the .400 Whelen

Yep

its an answer in search of a question

Colonel Whelen would disagree.

My fresh thoughts are a redesign.

1. Neck up the 270 winchester case or form from basic brass for a 2.54" case and headspace on the extractor with zero shoulder. Why? Extractor headspacing has been proven millions of times over and arguably better than headspacing on a small shoulder although small shoulders do work when all is done right. The original taper will leave fewer problems when it comes to feeding issues when converted from say a mod 70 30-06. This leaves about a .6" neck tension area and leaving virtually no shoulder so leave the base of the bullet on a lightly compressed load with no room for powder around the bullet shank. You could draw a straight line from the case mouth to the rim and keep original taper.

Any thoughts on that?

2. Neck down the 10.75x68 to .411"

Those are my thoughts.

RIP

next time you anneal try to go with the flame more to the shoulder area and keep the direction (45 degrees) of the flame towards the mouth than drop the case directly into the water.

Pyzda

quote:

Originally posted by Pyzda:
RIP

next time you anneal try to go with the flame more to the shoulder area and keep the direction (45 degrees) of the flame towards the mouth than drop the case directly into the water.

Pyzda

All good advice and I will do it that way next time.
Dropping into water is good to cool faster, and copper and brass can be annealed that way, cooled fast or slow after heating.
Quenching in water is good.
The ferrous alloys temper or harden when quenched.

Gentlemen;
How's the case capacity of the 400 Whelen compare to the 405 Winchester?
I have a Wichester 95 in 405 might be fun to have a 405 equivilent in a Mauser bolt.

Jim

405 Win 78 grains
400 Whelen 75 grains
+ or - a few grains depending on brass.
400 Whelen can be loaded hotter in a bolt and loaded out.

arkypete,
ditto boom stick.
The factory Winchester load for the 405 WCF was a 300-grainer at 2200 fps.
You can't load it much hotter in the Winchester M1895 lever action, but you could in a single shot rifle.
The 400 Whelen load I am starting with is a 300-grainer at 2300 fps.
Rusty McGee came up with that load, and I will get specifics on it from him.

Yes, Rusty McGee, Gunsmith finally screwed a .411"-grooved/.404"-bored, 1:14" twist barrel onto my Ruger Hawkeye,
after he removed the 35 Whelen barrel.
He also cut the barrel to 600 mm length, chambered and crowned it, and glass bedded with rear pillar and internal crossbolts fore and aft of magazine well.
That barrel is a Shilen chro-moly No.5 sporter, and is 0.725" diameter at the 23.6" muzzle.
The rifle now weighs 7 lbs. and 14 oz., and is much better balanced.
Yep, I'd say the perfect barrel for the job.

Pictures of rifle, scope, brass and some other bullets to be tried.
Ought to be able to easily duplicate anything from 405 WCF to 450/400 NE, and some squirrel loads with pistol bullets too.
The the Ruger Hawkeye 35 Whelen converted to 400 Whelen is a slick feeder with ease.
It holds 4 down in the box and 1 in the chamber, a 5-shooter.
It is dwarfed by the Weaver Dangerous Game 1.5-5X 30mm-tubed scope.
But that scope is a delight.
The 1.5X setting looks like 1X to the eye.
Fast and easy aiming, even for something like elephant hunting at 25 feet range.

Yep, this rifle is the alternative do-all rifle for the low velocity philosophy,
as it will get a 400-grain solid to 2150 fps, for elephant brain shooting.
Deer load of 300-grain cup & core Hornady SP at 2300 fps.
Squirrel load of 210-grain Hornady XTP.
There is also a 350-grain Swift A-Frame for cape buffalo.
All this on the 30-06 basic case:











This cast-lead, gas-checked bullet is from Rusty McGee's mould, and weighs 358 grains (+/- 1 grain, with copper gas check and red lube).
They are too good to waste on fire-forming, sized to .413" on the driving bands, the nose diameter is smaller, fits throat.
I tested the BH number myself (13.0). Rusty says they are made of wheel weights plus some extra tin:











This cast bullet is from "No Name" maker, and found in bulk on shelf at local emporium, but is only .410" diameter, 400-grainer.
A cheap plinker, if it will shoot accurately enough.
Must be made of Linotype, it is hard:



I'll try to get a picture of Rusty McGee's 400 Whelen Mauser, his personal gun, the first one he built.
Mine is the second.
Next up: See how mine shoots, and how it kills deer.

My freshest thoughts on the 400 Whelen:

I picked up the rifle Thursday and mooched a box of ammo off of Rusty McGee Gunsmith so I could zero the rifle Friday and go deer hunting Saturday.
OK as long as I return the fired brass to Rusty. That stuff is scarce.

I used 5 shots to zero:
Bore sight at the range.
3 shots at 50 yards, adjusting scope after each shot (1-shot "groups"),
Then two shots at 100 yards were "touching-bullet-holes"
and just two clicks right and 2 clicks low, from where I wanted them.
I did the final scope adjustment and called it zeroed at 3.0" high at 100 yards.
5 shots to zero.
This rifle is gonna be an accurate one.
Love that Weaver Dangerous Game scope in 30mm Ruger rings too.
Solid and brilliant.

Then I went hunting the next day.
Having only two antlerless deer permits remaining, I knew I ought to take at least 2 cartridges with me.

Doe # one was Bambi's mother, taken with a heart shot at 100 yards.

Where she fell:




Entrance wound, broke one rib going in:



Exit wound, broke 2 ribs going out:



Heart remnant:




Doe # two was Bambi's grandmother, taken with a heart shot at 150 yards, very similar results to above, shot placement, entrance and exit wounds very similar.
Both deer staggered about 10 feet, spraying blood from both sides of their chests:.



Heart of deer # two:



Load used on deer above is discussed in next post.

Yes, the 400 Whelen is a wonderful Dangerous Whitetail Rifle (DWR).
Excellent for making the highways safe from the most dangerous wild animal in the USA,
which kills more humans than any other: The Whitetail!!!

I have now laid hands on fired brass and can do QuickLOADs for the 400 Whelen.



Here is some actual data from Rusty McGee, though your mileage may vary with different powder lots of RL-10x,
or any large rifle primer you want, start low and work up.
This is about a 95% fill load.
Not compressed.
I am starting to consider this to be an accuracy load.
Good enough for me to now have a use for RL-10x.
Should be able to get some hotter loads worked up eventually.



Now I want some cylindrical brass from Qual Cart, with 400 Whelen headstamp, like this:

RIP,

Congrats on the deer. My wife took her caribou with my 400 this year. The 400 grain Woodleigh is certainly adequate for caribou. That 400 Whelen sure fun to shoot. I haven't had so much fun with a rifle in a long time. Thanks for the great posts.

Mart

mart,
Yep, the 400 Whelen is about as efficient as it gets regarding shooting pleasure, as well as ballistic efficiency.
100% powder burn with 40% thermodynamic/ballistic efficiency can be had with the right load.
Egad! It does not get any better than that, does it?

I'll be looking for a 300-grainer at 2530 fps and a 400-grainer at 2150 fps,
with .411-caliber bullets from a 30-06 based cartridge case.

Thanks for the ideas.
Any load data welcome here.

RIP,

I am returning tomorrow to Alaska. Was down in Washington visiting and bird hunting. I will post some load data when I get back.

I haven't tried the Swift A frame yet. I've been wanting to give their 350 grainer a go. I am getting right at 2150 with the 400 Woodleigh. That's a great bullet. I am looking forward to pitting it against a spring bear, black or brown.

The good Colonel got it right with the old 400.

Mart

quote:

I'll be looking for a 300-grainer at 2530 fps and a 400-grainer at 2150 fps

Does this mean you could make a 375 Whelen with sharp shoulder and get H&H velocities?

quote:

Originally posted by BaxterB:

quote:

I'll be looking for a 300-grainer at 2530 fps and a 400-grainer at 2150 fps

Does this mean you could make a 375 Whelen with sharp shoulder and get H&H velocities?

BaxterB,
Nope.
You have to have a bigger bore to get more whomp out of a smaller case.
I reckon the 400 Whelen will out-do a 375 Whelen simply by "bore law."

intersting

mart,

Any loads with the Barnes TSX .411"/300-grainer?
That is a very interesting bullet.
With BC of .281", and higher velocity tolerance of bullet, could flatten the Hornady SP 300gr trajectory a bit.

Barnes cat# 41130:


However, nothing wrong with the Hornady 300-gr SP for DWR use out to +200 yards,
here is the trajectory used yesterday on DW:

RIP: I for one would be very interested in what you find with that Barnes bullet.

RIP and Bill,

I got home yesterday, got unpacked and collapsed. I feel more human today.

I used 3031 and H4895 for most of my testing with all the bullets I tried in the 400. I tried some RL15 but felt I wasn't getting the velocity I was with the 3031 and H4895. With the H4895 61 grains turned out 2332 fps and 62 grains cam in at 2365. With the 3031 60, 61 and 62 grains turned in good groups with similar velocities. The H4895 was what I opted to go with. It shoots well, meters well and meets the velocity goals I had hoped for. I have had no pressure indications (hard bolt lift, ejector marks) on any cases so expect I could lean on the 300 TSX bullets a little harder but at 2350+ it will do a fine job on any big game.

I haven't had the opportunity to work with the 300 grain TSX at longer ranges yet. I have confined my testing to 100 yards in load development with that bullet.

I did shoot the Woodleigh 400 grain RN at 200 and 300 yards to get an idea of the trajectory. The Woodleigh is +2 at 100, -2 at 200 and -21 at 300. My wife's caribou was right at 250 yards and I instructed her to hold 16 inches high. I must have guessed it pretty close because she laid it right in there.

I plan to spend some time with the Barnes bullets this winter at longer ranges and expect them to be considerably flatter shooting than the Woodleighs. I sure like the way that big round nose performs though.

I'll update as I gather more data.

Mart

I would go with the blown-out case to ensure good head spacing.

RIP: Check with Dan at CEB they turned a bunch of .411 dia bullets for my 400H&H.

Bill,
Yep, that .411/300-grain TSX does look most interesting. I will be getting some.

mart's 300-grain TSX loads: Thanks

"With the H4895 61 grains turned out 2332 fps and 62 grains cam in at 2365. With the 3031 60, 61 and 62 grains turned in good groups with similar velocities. The H4895 was what I opted to go with. It shoots well, meters well and meets the velocity goals I had hoped for ..."

Well, what pressures do we allow in a 400 Whelen?

Some "Service Maximum Average" chamber pressures by CIP (psi) or SAAMI [(CUP)]:

25-06 Remington: 65,250 psi [53,000 CUP]
270 Winchester: 62,350 psi [52,000 CUP]
30-06 Springfield: 58,725 psi [50,000 CUP]
35 Whelen: 58,000 psi [52,000 CUP]

300 Lapua Magnum: 68,150 psi
338 Lapua Magnum: 68,150 psi

Of course there is no direct conversion to psi nor consistency from one cartridge to another regarding the CUP numbers.

Also it seems to me that the lower limit of the 30-06 is likely due to its being the older cartridge with older rifles out there of weaker steel.

So surely a modern steel 400 Whelen such as we are coming up with here should easily handle more than 60,000 psi.

But just how much more?

There is no standard.
We set the standard here, eh?

Fresh thoughts on this?
2550 fps with 300-grains: Like a .375 H&H that makes a bigger hole.
2200 fps with 400-grainers: Beat the 450/400 NE classic ballstics?
Fresh pressures.

Oh yeh, 376 steyr had a stale thought about blowing out the 400 Whelen:
It has "enough" shoulder as is and anyone who says they can improve it by losing what little case taper is left is just in the dark,
or has their own proprietary version to push,
which is insignificantly different.
Fresh thoughts please.

Zephyr,
Re: Your CEB .411 bullet custom run,
first, the 400-grain Woodleigh Weldcore and the 300-grain Barnes TSX and Hornady SP have it well covered.
But I can surely see where a brass Non-Con and a brass solid of a weight somewhere between 300 and 400 grains could make this wildcat meow.
What weights did your bullets turn out to be, or must I go do a search?

quote:

Originally posted by Zephyr:
CEB is turning .411 dia 400grn #13s and 370grn Non Cons if any one is interested give Dan a call.

Major Townsend Whelen's first estimates of velocity for the 300-grainer in the 400 Whelen were said to be "2350 to 2600 fps."

QuickLOADing ...
300-grain TSX with COL 3.334":
H322 60.0 grains: 2530 fps ... 58,826 psi ... 23.6" barrel
H322 61.2 grains: 2574 fps ... 62,712 psi ... 23.6" barrel

But will the bullet fit the throat at that COL?
Sheesh, throat again.

I have a Winchester Model 70 Classic Stainless Featherweight that is wearing a 35 Brown-Whelen barrel, 22" long, 1:12" twist,
in a Featherweight-pattern Tupperware stock.
I think that one needs to be converted to a 400 Whelen: Switch-barrel 400 Whelen/35-Brown-Whelen.

Use a No.4 "Magnum Sporter" contour, 1:14" twist, "Select Match Grade" stainless barrel from Shilen for that one?
Groove is .411"
Bore is .405".
Muzzle diameter is .650" at a 26" length, so it is thicker when cut shorter.
It gets thicker by 0.0105" in diameter for each one inch that it is shortened between 26" and 6" length.

Krieger also makes a .411/.405 barrel of 1:14" twist, but CM only, not SS.

Pac-Nor makes .410"-grooved/1:16"-twist barrel
and a .412"-grooved/1:14"-twist barrel,
in either CM or SS, I assume.

Douglas makes a 405 Winchester barrel of 1:14" twist but does not specify bore and groove diameters at the web site,
but probably would do it in both CM and SS.

McGowen makes this in both CM and SS, for 405 Winchester, 6-groove, 1:14" twist:

I cannot say I would be thrilled with .402" bore and .412" groove, at first blush, for .411" bullets, but it certainly is intriquing.

Any fresh thoughts on a better barrel?
Goal is an all-weather featherweight 400 Whelen adequate for either Dangerous Game Rifle or Dangerous Whitetail Rifle use: DGR/DWR

RIP,

I used a Shilen #4 barrel. I had it cut to 24" and fitted to a model 70 classic, left handed of course. It came out weighing 8.5 pounds. I know that's not ultralight but it makes a fairly light 400. Recoil is noticeable but not bad. Less than the 375 H&H, slightly more than the 35 Whelen of the same weight.

I am really hoping for a poke at a spring grizzly with the 400 this next year.


I cannot speak to what pressures I might be running with the 400 and the loads I have tried. I have been running on faith I guess. Most are loads I have mined from the internet or from Michael Petrov's articles. I don't know anyone with Quickload and haven't gotten up the courage to try it myself. I am really quite the technotard.

Mart

mart,

Shilen:

Going to a No.4 instead of No.5 ought to cut about 1/2 pound, then the stock needs to be lightened too ...

Seems Shilen has a monopoly on stainless 400 Whelen barrels of proper bore, groove, and twist.
I cannot seem to find another I would want, other than the CM Shilen, or a CM Krieger of same bore/groove/twist.

Douglas might do it right, but I cannot tell from their web site ...

BC = .281
SD = .254
Length = 1.257"

I think this Barnes .411/300-grain TSX is going to fit the throat of the 400 Whelen just fine,
with two cannelures showing above the case mouth, crimped on the third cannelure.
Might work even with full length brass from Qual-Cart.
Might get +2550 fps.

Then there is the .411/400-grain Woodleigh RN SP,
approved for impact velocity of 1800-2200 fps.
I expect to get +2150 fps with this:

BC = .307
SD = .338
Length = 1.298"



Add a solid for occasional use and you have it all covered.

Hornady .411"/300-gr SP at +2300 fps
Barnes .411"/300-grain TSX at +2550 fps
Woodleigh .411"/400-gr RNSP at +2150 fps
Solid bullet choice yet to be determined.

I suppose the Swift .410"/350-gr A-Frame is for some sort of compromise between 300-grainers and 400-grainers?

I have my fire-forming loads waiting to be plinked into 400 Whelen brass:



The .410/210-grain Hornady XTP is inverted, seated backward, over a charge of 48.5 grains of 23-year-old IMR-3031.
Measured with a 3.70 CC Lee powder scoop.
With the annealed and necked-up 35 Whelen brass, and the XTP crimped on the cannelure,
it is a jamb fit
of the base of the bullet into the lands of the throat leade.
Primers are very likely to go off when the trigger is pulled.
Should fire-form nicely if that is enough IMR-3031.

I got this idea for fire-forming bullet and powder charge from an old Wolfe Pub article about the 400 Brown-Whelen.
Author also used RP 35 Whelen brass, but did not anneal. He used 48 grains of IMR-3031.
He got excellent case life anyway, despite no annealing.

I'd do it ala B&M on a controlled feed action.

Since neither SAAMI nor C.I.P. have certified the 400 Whelen, yet,
might as well certify it by R.I.P., "Registry Internationale Permanente."
I'm working on the submission.

Some new standards for a neglected wildcat, 400 Whelen:

Maximum Average Chamber Pressure: 62,873 psi (piezo)
Maximum COL: 3.340" (a common '06 family COL number)
Maximum Brass Case Length: 2.490"

I have seen a COTW reference to 400 Whelen case length of 2.49", and cartridge overall length of 3.10".
Good on the former, but the latter will never do,
especially when my Ruger Hawkeye has an inside-box length of 3.42".

As for pressure, well, just "because" I like this number of psi: 62,873

Now take a gander at the low pressure prediction for this 400-grain Woodleigh RN SP, from QuickLOAD:

400 Whelen
23.622" (600mm) barrel length
.411-cal/400-grain Woodleigh RN SP
COL: 3.250"
RL-15 charge: 59.0 grains (Compressed ... maybe, maybe just a full case, will see ...)
Chamber Pressure: 57,885 psi
Muzzle Velocity: 2191 fps


There is published (Fred Zeglin, Z-Hat Custom) .411 Hawk load info that shows:

25"-barreled .411 Hawk:

"400-gr. bullet"
RL-15 57.0 grains
2159 fps

"350-gr. bullet"
IMR-4064 61.0 grains
2366 fps

"300-gr. bullet"
H4895 64.0 grains
2553 fps

Max brass length of the 411 Hawk is 2.4300", convenient for use of 35 Whelen brass fire-formed.
The .411 Hawk is the younger, shorter sister of the 400 Whelen.

The 400 Whelen will go nice with your 500 Whelen AKA 500 Bat

Hey boom stick,
Yep, the 500 Bateleur "Fifty-Aught-Twelve" will be make a nice battery paired with the 400 Whelen "Forty-Aught-Six."

I promise to fire those CEB .375-cal/230-grain ESP Raptors with new H4350 load in the .375/404 JS-2012,
as soon as I get a day at the range when the wind won't blow my chronograph over.

Will be fire-forming 400 Whelen while the .375/404 cools between strings.

quote:

Originally posted by D R Hunter:
I'd do it ala B&M on a controlled feed action.

My Ruger Hawkeye is a CRF action.

Rusty's Mauser 98 is a CRF action.

Mart's M70 Winchester is a CRF action.

I assume D R Hunter is talking about fire-forming using the extractor for headspacing on the rim of the '06 case?
Believe it or not, the methods previously described on this thread are all more effective,
more certain of a perfect result.

A 275 grain .410" raptor would be amazing in the Whelen
Good for all things NA! Maybe even 250 grain. Bears to Bambi.
Will be good to see the velocity and accuracy results on the 230 375 raptors.

Same bullet different round, I have had good luck with the Barnes .411 dia 300gr TSX out of my 400H&H. Using H4895 we are pushing the bullet in the 2700fps range. I shot a Cow Elk last year with the Barnes bullet moving approx 2600fps at 100 yards broadside and the bullet whistled right threw her. Another Elk at 135yrds shot with the same round broadside just fell in a heap where she was standing.
The other bullet that looks interesting is the North Fork .411 dia 360gr soft. and I believe that Barnes has made a .411 dia 400gr TSX.
The barrel that I used for my 400H&H project was also a Shilen Barrel very happy wioth the results every thing that I have shot through it shoots well.
Good luck with your project it sounds fun.

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:

Colonel Whelen would disagree.

My fresh thoughts are a redesign.

1. Neck up the 270 winchester case or form from basic brass for a 2.54" case and headspace on the extractor with zero shoulder. Why? Extractor headspacing has been proven millions of times over and arguably better than headspacing on a small shoulder although small shoulders do work when all is done right. The original taper will leave fewer problems when it comes to feeding issues when converted from say a mod 70 30-06. This leaves about a .6" neck tension area and leaving virtually no shoulder so leave the base of the bullet on a lightly compressed load with no room for powder around the bullet shank. You could draw a straight line from the case mouth to the rim and keep original taper.

Any thoughts on that?

2. Neck down the 10.75x68 to .411"

Those are my thoughts.

Boomie posted about headspacing off the extractor and that's what I mean too.
Straight shoulderless case as Michael has done with his line up of designs. The
difference between the base of the brass and the bullet diameter is .059" and
I feel at that slight difference you are better served using Michaels concept.
(which calls for a controlled feed action, compared to headspacing off a shoulder
or belt which don't require a C.F.A.)