Maybe the fresh thought here is that the 400 Whelen works so well that there is no fussiness in getting everything right.

Just get the proper chamber reamer then proper reloading dies to match the chamber.
Then if you start with the cylindrical brass of proper length,
just load the ammo and go shoot.
The brass will last a long time.
No problems.
No fuss.

Please spare me from the fussiness of getting everything right for a no-shoulder-rimless new wildcat that is going to be no improvement on the 400 Whelen.

I much prefer a little slop in the distance between between the rear face of the extractor claw and the bolt face, as the rifle will feed better.
Not too tight in the extractor groove grip either please.
That means a no-no on rimless-rim-headspacing on the extractor.

Not all CRF actions will reliably headspace on the rim.
Mausers are notoriously functional in battle and have built-in wiggle room plus-tolerances here and there, etc.

I also prefer not to worry much about trimming the brass length precisely to fit a headspace on the case mouth. too fussy.

There is a reason the 400 Whelen has that shoulder.
Fresh thoughts?

I'm glad someone is paying attention to my ranting posts lol.
The extra taper will also help with extraction if you decide to get above 60k PSI.

quote:

Originally posted by D R Hunter:

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:

Colonel Whelen would disagree.

My fresh thoughts are a redesign.

1. Neck up the 270 winchester case or form from basic brass for a 2.54" case and headspace on the extractor with zero shoulder. Why? Extractor headspacing has been proven millions of times over and arguably better than headspacing on a small shoulder although small shoulders do work when all is done right. The original taper will leave fewer problems when it comes to feeding issues when converted from say a mod 70 30-06. This leaves about a .6" neck tension area and leaving virtually no shoulder so leave the base of the bullet on a lightly compressed load with no room for powder around the bullet shank. You could draw a straight line from the case mouth to the rim and keep original taper.

Any thoughts on that?

2. Neck down the 10.75x68 to .411"

Those are my thoughts.

Boomie posted about headspacing off the extractor and that's what I mean too.
Straight shoulderless case as Michael has done with his line up of designs. The
difference between the base of the brass and the bullet diameter is .059" and
I feel at that slight difference you are better served using Michaels concept.
(which calls for a controlled feed action, compared to headspacing off a shoulder
or belt which don't require a C.F.A.)

If done right by design I see no issue with extractor Headspace. The goldilocks rule applies. Not too much, not too little but juuuuuuuust right and no sharp edges to catch up on.
If it works reliably then no issue. I wonder if you could get 405 win dies to work to cut costs.

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
Maybe the fresh thought here is that the 400 Whelen works so well that there is no fussiness in getting everything right.

Just get the proper chamber reamer then proper reloading dies to match the chamber.
Then if you start with the cylindrical brass of proper length,
just load the ammo and go shoot.
The brass will last a long time.
No problems.
No fuss.

Please spare me from the fussiness of getting everything right for a no-shoulder-rimless new wildcat that is going to be no improvement on the 400 Whelen.

I much prefer a little slop in the distance between between the rear face of the extractor claw and the bolt face, as the rifle will feed better.
Not too tight in the extractor groove grip either please.
That means a no-no on rimless-rim-headspacing on the extractor.

Not all CRF actions will reliably headspace on the rim.
Mausers are notoriously functional in battle and have built-in wiggle room plus-tolerances here and there, etc.

I also prefer not to worry much about trimming the brass length precisely to fit a headspace on the case mouth. too fussy.

There is a reason the 400 Whelen has that shoulder.
Fresh thoughts?

Boomie,
Re: Bill's 400 Whelen thread:
Fresh thoughts about the 400 Whelen?

quote:

Originally posted by Zephyr:
Same bullet different round, I have had good luck with the Barnes .411 dia 300gr TSX out of my 400H&H. Using H4895 we are pushing the bullet in the 2700fps range. I shot a Cow Elk last year with the Barnes bullet moving approx 2600fps at 100 yards broadside and the bullet whistled right threw her. Another Elk at 135yrds shot with the same round broadside just fell in a heap where she was standing.
The other bullet that looks interesting is the North Fork .411 dia 360gr soft. and I believe that Barnes has made a .411 dia 400gr TSX.
The barrel that I used for my 400H&H project was also a Shilen Barrel very happy wioth the results every thing that I have shot through it shoots well.
Good luck with your project it sounds fun.

Zephyr,
Thanks.

Don't think I could tolerate a Barnes Banded Brass Solid .410"/400-gr. even just for a few shots now and then:



The alternative is to get a custom run of bullets from CEB.
If I did that, I might want copper and .411" diameter with the BBW#13 FN nose.
Copper would spare case capacity.
2150 fps would hardly bulge a copper FN nose.


I could also size down to .411" any .416 bullet that has enough room in the minor diameter of the grooves or cannelures to ride the .405" bore of the 400 Whelen.
Minor diameter in the grooves needs to be .405" or less on a .416-caliber bullet.

Lots of 400-grain/.416-cal bullets to go measure in the minor diameters.

Hey, another fresh thought.

So the 416 CEBs could just get a band trim and be good to go?

the custom run has already been done when I put my 400 together give dan a call at CEB and he should be able to fix you up. He should have 400sl and 370NC and I also believe there are some 320NC aswell

As mentioned earlier you might want to check with Dan at CEB, as I believe that the bullets are designed for each individual cartridge and their OAL

I have been thinking about doing this (400 whelen ) with a sedgley 30-06 that I never use. I've seen 400 basic brass on midway, but no dies. my question is what is the simplest route with out having to do fire forming?

You can buy formed cases from quality cartridge I believe.

D R hunter
When were you thinking about making this?

quote:

Originally posted by eny:
I have been thinking about doing this (400 whelen ) with a sedgley 30-06 that I never use. I've seen 400 basic brass on midway, but no dies. my question is what is the simplest route with out having to do fire forming?

eny,
Yes the brass from Quality Cartridge is cylindrical basic with proper headstamp.
No fire-forming.
It is "Out of stock, back order OK" at Midway,
just like everything else I want.

It looks like this, eh?



Just size the Qual-Cart brass in the reloading dies, trim to uniformity at 2.480" minimum/2.490" maximum, add primer, powder, and bullet and go hunting.
Dies are from CH4D or RCBS, just make sure they are for the original specs of Major Townsend Whelen, Griffin & Howe, and Michael Petrov: There is only one proper specification, though there are many other similar wildcats.

I am waiting for Rusty McGee Gunsmith, and 400 Whelen Guru, to locate some of it, or by golly I will find it myself, if he gets too tied down by babysitting.

Thanks RIP, I think I'm going to do it. The barnes 300 gr bullet looks good to me.

quote:

Thanks RIP, I think I'm going to do it. The barnes 300 gr bullet looks good to me.

I love my own version. Just longer and a little more power. If you don't need to worry about the headstamp I'd contact Wayne at AHR http://www.hunting-rifles.com/Ammo/ammunition.htm

He sells his "Howell Basic" (that is the headstamp). It is 06 cylinder brass at about 2.65+". I use it for my 380PDK and 400PDK. While longer than you need it is cheaper than the cylinder brass from z-hat and a heck of a lot easier than necking up.

Curious to see how the Barnes works for you.

quote:

Originally posted by eny:
I have been thinking about doing this (400 whelen ) with a sedgley 30-06 that I never use. I've seen 400 basic brass on midway, but no dies. my question is what is the simplest route with out having to do fire forming?

The shortest route to getting 400 Whelen brass is to order the Qual Cart brass and run them into the proper sizing die as the brass is cylindrical as RIP noted. You could do the same with Norma 30-06 cylindrical brass if you are lucky enough to find any.

The Qual Cart is not always available in 400 Whelen so the next fastest way is fireforming. I use 30-06 brass, anneal the neck and shoulder area, charge the case with 16 grains of Bullseye, fill to the top with Cream of Wheat, jam a crayon in the neck and fire it. Presto. A well formed 400 Whelen.

Shooting and hunting with an old wildcat like the 400 requires a little more attention and a few more steps. Is it worth it? It is to me. It has been a very rewarding and hugely enjoyable project.

Mart

quote:

Originally posted by mart:
... I use 30-06 brass, anneal the neck and shoulder area, charge the case with 16 grains of Bullseye, fill to the top with Cream of Wheat, jam a crayon in the neck and fire it. Presto. A well formed 400 Whelen.

Shooting and hunting with an old wildcat like the 400 requires a little more attention and a few more steps. Is it worth it? It is to me. It has been a very rewarding and hugely enjoyable project.

Mart

Mart,
The 400 Whelen warms the cockles of this rifleman's heart too.
I have a batch of new WW 30-06 brass to fire-form with Bullseye, Cream'O Wheat, and crayon.
Thanks for that recipe.


I am no microbarrelophile, and I thank the Bloody British for the USA.

From the grapevine:
Quality Cartridge will be making a new run of 400 Whelen brass in January. Tomorrow it will be next month. Happy New Year.

quote:

and I thank the Bloody British for the USA

Don't forget the other Pawn Shop customers ... The French, Spanish, and Russians.

quote:

Originally posted by H2CO3:

quote:

and I thank the Bloody British for the USA

Don't forget the other Pawn Shop customers ... The French, Spanish, and Russians.

Especially the French!
The Revolution would have been lost without the French aid against the mutual English foe of the time.
Then we would not have been able to take over the neighborhood and setup the "Shop" to take the French, Spanish and Russian property in "Pawn."

RIP,

Of all the rifle cranks I know or have heard of you sir have to be the most hugest rifle crank of them all!

Is there ANYTHING you haven't played with and or built and shot?

PS

Being the most hugest rifle crank ever is a good thing in my book BTW!

surestrike,
Thank you Sir! I am honored.
I can strive for nothing better than being dubbed a "rifle crank."
This is better than being called just a "plain ol' tool" or "old fool."

For rifle cranks, here is pictorial illustration of 400 Whelen effective throat length.
A couple of Throat-Go Gages, one using a reversed Hornady .410"/210-grain XTP handgun bullet (my fire-forming load),
and the other is a Swift .410"/350-grain A-Frame:





Weather is looking good for range time today.
Soon I won't have to mooch ammo off of Rusty.

Also, it is looking good for the .411"/300-grain Barnes TSX.
Should be a good fit in the throat, when loaded with long-nose seating. Maybe very close to 3.345" COL maximum by R.I.P. specification:
Riflecrank Internationale Permanente.

SAAMI, CIP, and RIP

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:

quote:

Originally posted by H2CO3:

quote:

and I thank the Bloody British for the USA

Don't forget the other Pawn Shop customers ... The French, Spanish, and Russians.

Especially the French!
The Revolution would have been lost without the French aid against the mutual English foe of the time.
Then we would not have been able to take over the neighborhood and setup the "Shop" to take the French, Spanish and Russian property in "Pawn."

Don't forget Mexico

Cross L,
I never forget Mexico.
Every time I am offered a piece of apple pie, I say: "Remember the Ala mode! I want ice cream with my pie, not cheddar cheese, please and thank you."
Yep, I think about The Alamo and Davy Crockett a lot.
He told his detractors to go to hell 'cause he was gone to Texas.

Rifle crank trivia:
The Shilen bore diameter is about .4035" diameter.
Rusty McGee has to use a .4030" diameter pilot, as a .4040" pilot is too big.

This is a correction of my previous report:

Shilen barrel bore/land diameter: Closer to 0.404" (0.4035"), not 0.405".
Shilen groove diameter is still thought to be .411".

That is a good thing.
Shilen rifling stands a little prouder than previously thought by me.

Far as I know, Krieger claims to be .4050"/.4110", 1:14" (like Shilen twist).
No. 4 sporter CM (no SS) is as light as Shilen will go on the contour.

If Shilen will make a No.4 contour stainless barrel for 400 Whelen, I want one of those.
If not, I'll settle for the Krieger CM No.4.
RIP/CIP/SAAMI

The fire-forming worked very well.
Plinking at 50 yards offhand for fireforming was fun.
48.5 grains of IMR-3031 makes the 210-grain Hornady XTP go about 1750 fps from the R-P 35 Whelen brass necked up, with WLR primer.

I have 46 pieces of formed 400 Whelen.
Quality Cartridge brass on order.

Now I need to clean up the R-P brass size it, trim it, shoot it, chronograph it.

Here is what the brass looks like, directly from fire-forming, all I have done is wipe the soot off the case necks with a rag:







The brass is well enough formed to rely on the shoulder after it is FL resized.
Note that there is no primer protrusion, primers are flush. Good head space has been established.

This recipe for fire-forming is from the article ".400 Brown Whelen" by John Kronfeld,
republished in the Wolfe Pub. book BIG BORE Rifles and Cartridges 1991, pp. 220-223.
Mr. Kronfeld was misguided only in thinking the original 400 Whelen shoulder inadequate.
The article reveals none of the specs of the 400 Brown Whelen except to indicate it incorporates
"a sharp shoulder angle in contrast to the long, tapered shoulder of the original .400 Whelen."
I think any change in the shoulder was insignificant.
I think the only real change was to accept a shorter maximum brass length for the 400 Brown Whelen, so that the fire formed brass was not so short of desired spec,
when using either factory 30-06 or 35 Whelen brass to form it.
We still need the Quality Cartridge 400 Whelen brass to get to full length of 2.490" max brass for the original 400 Whelen.
Blank basic cylindrical 30-06 from Captech International won't be made until 2014.
Quality cartridge brass with proper headstamp is coming next month.

But fire-forming is not a total waste. True the brass ends up about 0.06" short in the neck,
but it is otherwise good brass.
Note the offhand practice potential.
I stapled four letter-sized paper targets to the target frame at 50 yards, aimed at the 4-corners center of the array,
and 26 of the 46 shots fired landed on one piece of paper.
5 shots were plinked into an old tire lying on the berm, all the rest of the 46 were less concentrated on the other three pieces of paper.
It actualy shoots accurately enough to chronograph those 210-grain bullets going backwards. No chronograph destroyed.
5 shots averaged about 1750 fps at 5 yards.
Not much recoil.
I wonder what the BC of that backward bullet is? Correcting to muzzle velocity, it might be over 1800 fps.





My next loads will be with the cleaned up brass.
I predict 3 bullets in one hole at 100 yards, precisely zeroed 3.0" high at 100 yards,
with the Hornady .411/300-gr SP, 57.0 grains of RL-10x, and the Winchester WLR primer for standard large rifles, COL 3.123".
Thanks to Rusty.
Rusty reported MV of 2324 fps.
I believe this to be an accuracy load.
Velocity with 300-grainers can be higher, but not with this bullet,
as it explodes whitetail deer hearts at 100 yard impact.
It was designed for the 405 Winchester at 2200 to 2250 fps.
Tougher bullets at higher speed, or heavier bullets such as 400-grainers at 2200 fps maximum impact velocity are available for the 400 Whelen.

In summary, my freshest thought about the 400 Whelen:

I shot the 400 Whelen for a short time. Never had any headspace problems and its a great caliber, especially for elk in the thick stuff. My fresh thought has always been:

If I were to build another one, I would opt for the 9.3x62 or 9.3x64 case as they are readily available today and that would give you a good deal more velocity without any change to the action other than opening up the chamber. Also, if you opted for the 9.3x62 case then you could use 06 brass and perhaps even shoot 400 Whelen loads in it??? Keep in mind, like the 9.3x62 you can use 06 brass, but with the easily obtainable 9.3x62 brass of today you will get about 8% more case capacity than the 06 case allows..

If you went witht the 9.3x64 then you would have a 40 cal. big bore for sure and in a 06 length action. It would be, in effect, a 416 Taylor without a belt, and the equal of a 416 Rem for all practical purposes and you can always load down to whelen velocity or anywhere in between...

Thats fresh I'm thinking.

Ray,
Your thoughts are more cheeky than fresh!
Presumtuous of you to think you can improve on Ye Olde 400 Whelen.

The 9.3x62mm Mauser brass is shorter than desired, .053" shorter than the 30-06 (strike 1)
and the 9.3x62mm brass has a micro-rebate from .476" base to .470" rim (strike 2),
and it offers no measurable increase in case capacity over the 30-06 basic: Strike 3, yer out!

9.3x64mm Brenneke has a base diameter of .507" and a rim of .496", and is long enough at 2.520":
Why not just use the .375 Ruger necked up for .411-caliber bullets, or neck down the .416 Ruger?
But wait, it would not be a 400 Whelen.
Then it would be much the same as Ye Olde 40 Newton, though that one used .408-caliber bullets.

So there goes magazine space, and bolt face opening will be required to the standard M98, Ruger, or M70 already suitable for a 30-06,
to beat the perfect ballistics of the 400 Whelen?

No way to improve the 400 Whelen ...
But now you got me thinking about the 40 Newton with .410 or .411-caliber bullets instead of Ye Olde .408-caliber originals.
Maybe call it the 411, 410, 405, 40, or 400 Newton-Ruger.
For now, Ye Olde 400 Whelen seems perfect as perfect can be, even for a riflecrank like me.

quote:

No way to improve the 400 Whelen

Sure there is make the case 2.
65" move the shoulder forward. Then call it a 400PDK. Still have 5 down adds some velocity and allows you to use the cannelure and end up with an OAL of around 3.34". 300grs at around 2700 and 4300 gr at 2300fps. Will it really kill anything better than a proper Whelen probably not but isn't wildcatting fun.

What is really going to upset me if I find out I need surgery Friday my 400PDK will sit and collect dust for most of the year.

ramrod340,
OK, if you can do that, then I can do about 100 fps less velocity at same pressures and same COL, with Ye Olde 400 Whelen.
300-grainers at 2600 fps
400-grainers at 2200 fps.
Any faster than that is not needed for any possible big game "SPORTING" hunting, and the trajectories will work fine out to 300 yards.

2300 fps is fast enough with the Hornady .411/300-grainers, inside of 150 yards. Too soft and explosive if faster MV, even on deer.
.411/400-grain Woodleigh RNSPs should not be loaded faster than 2200 fps MV, just in case you need to shoot something that is chewing on your boot:
Recommended impact velocity is 1800 fps to 2200 fps

You have not convinced me to abandon Ye Olde 400 Whelen for a 400 PDK, even if the latter is PDQ.
I am a riflecrank.

RIP

Sure not trying to get you to change. I agree loaded to the same OAL and pressure my new is just about 100fps faster than the old. Don't know how often a 400 Whelen owners seats the bullet out that long. Other than looks no reason he can't on most bullets. But my gain is about the same thing you can say for any of the IMPROVED cases.

As too the 300s I agree on most game 26-2700 is too darn fast the Hornady's will come apart. They do make quick work of Texas hogs. I need to try the Barnes. But if I'm really wanting 300grs I drop back to my 380PDK. Exact same case just necked down. I do take 416 350gr speer run them through a $10 410 lee sizing die and they work great. Very accurate and good performance on the few animals I've take.

Have not tried the 400 Woodleighs I bought a large number of Hornady 2nds. Enough for my lifetime.

A correct 400 Whelen is hard to beat. It is a shame that it got such a bad rap. As I said only real advantage I get is about 100fps, I can use the cannelure on most bullets(other than looks better not sure if I gain anything) and it makes a great big brother for my various of PDK wildcats.

Fresh thoughts?
Yes!
A .2 SD Raptor!
It does not get any fresher than that :-)

quote:

Fresh thoughts?
Yes!
A .2 SD Raptor!
It does not get any fresher than that :-

A 235 .410" .2SD Raptor would be good for deer to bear ad plenty fast out of the Whelen or variants. A 300 grain would be good for all else.

quote:

A 235 .410" .2SD Raptor

OK I'm on your page now. Just a little slow tonight. Are they making one?

I've use pistol bullets but for nothing other than paper and to explode water jugs.

I think there is a heavier 410 in the works for the 405 Win but these bullets can be more effective tipped and lighter. That could be just a bullet order away.

boom stick,
that is indeed a fresh idea, but will have to wait until I try the Barnes .411/300gr TSX.

Housekeeping at Riflecrank Internationale Permanente:

There is no drawing of the ".400 Whelen" cartridge, Ye Olde 400 Whelen Proper, to be found anywhere?

Just some chamber cast sketches from Michael Petrov,
and the resulting chamber reamer drawing by Dave Kiff at PT&G are the only reliable information to be found.

I will draw it and submit it to www.ammoguide.com

Note that there is a lot of taper in the neck of the cartridge and chamber.
Note that the chamber shoulder angle is 23-degrees: sharper than the 30-06
Note the base to shoulder distance of the 400 Whelen is greater than that of the 30-06.
The 400 Whelen is improved about all that is possible without increasing the case length to 400 PDK length for that extra (unnecessary) 100 fps.
Sure, the neck could be made shorter by moving the shoulder farther out,
but then it would not be a 400 Whelen, and it would grip the bullet less well, and it just would not be as pretty nor function as well:

Reamer specs from PT&G transposed to a drawing of RCBS.LOAD Cartridge Designer, ignore the rim-groove area except for the OD's located there:
PT&G drawing has 0.471" minimum diameter located at a point below the .4708" diameter at the .2000" length where I have shown it.
This is an artifact of my using this software for a cartridge but trying to show a chamber.
It is consistent, no inconsitencies, the PT&G chamber reamer drawing can be found earlier on this thread:



The idealized brass spec that follows from the chamber reamer specs.
Mr. Petrov's sketch labeled maximum case length as 2.501".
He meant to say minimum chamber length was 2.501".
When he started loading for his 400 Whelen, he trimmed his brass to 2.470".

I think 2.480" is also a prudent enough trim-to length: RIP Certified



Some throat detail for effective free-bore length and diameter considerations, to fit to any particular bullet ogive desired:





And finally the actual brass measurements I get with using the short RP 35 Whelen fire-formed brass,
resized and reloaded after one full-power load, in my rifle, with my reloading dies:



Notice that the chamber minimum diameter spec is the same as my actual brass shoulder diameter for loaded ammo.
This is a very positive headspace and seems to work very well.
The actual chamber shoulder diameter may be larger than the minimum spec.
Diameters may vary +/- .001" and lengths may vary +.005"/-.000", according to the reamer drawing.

Whatever is actually going on in my rifle, chambered by Rusty McGee, with reamer from PT&G, and reloading dies from CH4D:
It is working very well.
I am a rifle crank.

quote:

The 400 Whelen is improved about all that is possible without increasing the case length to 400 PDK length for that extra (unnecessary) 100 fps.

Ouch

Rip,
Using H414 and RL-15,or water for that matter and see how much more the 9.3x62 case holds than the 06 and let me know what you come up with..I get about an 8% gain in powder in the 9.3x62, over 06 brass so I don't use o6 brass since 9.3x62 is now easily available. I have not measured the cases as thickness can vari a great deal but the 9.3 has an obvious larger case and a shorter neck that allows more room inside..Just curious about your post, because I cannot reach the same high velocity with 06 cases as I can with 9.3x62 RWS cases or Win.

Not that I doubt your figures but you told me one time that you couldn't get 95 grs. of IMR4831 in a 404 case, and eversince I have worried about early Deminsia on your part!! did I spell that right? probably not.

Ray,
Read my lips: No 9.3x62mm Mauser brass need apply for 400 Whelen conversion. It is too short and has a micro-rebated rim.

Also, sure I can get 95 grains of IMR-4831 into a 404 Jeffery case, I just can't get any bullet seated on top of it to fit into a 3.62" long box.

The only cartridge drawing I could find for the 400 Whelen was in Dr. Ken Howell's book,
but it needed to be corrected to Riflecrank Internationale Permanente standards:

It has been called to my attention that the PT&G reamer print appeared on another 400 Whelen thread, not this one, so here it is again.
You will note that the cartridge spec corrections on Dr. Howell's drawing were done to agree with this reamer.
This reamer is the fruit of Michael Petrov's research and discoveries, including hands-on with the handloading tools of Major Whelen,
and chamber-casting the second rifle ever built with 400 Whelen chambering by Griffin & Howe, in 1923.
All us riflecranks are appreciative beyond words:

I need to stop looking at this thread or I am going to do one of these things instead of 9.3x62..