Previously brought to us by 500grains, this image (see below), lifesize as you see it on your monitor, is the only known example (in any species) of a non-paranasal-sinus skull cavity that is aerated: The brain pan of member "shootaway." I'm not sure if its species or sex has been classified as yet, but certainly not Homo sapiens.

LutzM

I failed in getting any bone thickness measurements for you on my recent hunt but since I see you measured a skull there that is probably no surprise to you. I only had a tape measure and with all the bones being so thin I would have needed a micrometer to get any useful measurements. Here are some of my obsewrvations to date;

Bull skulls seem to be very dry in the honeycomb portion above the brain. I have noticed a lot of water (?) flying when that area has been chopped in cows. I beleive there is more water in the honeycomb in cows than bulls. As far as whether the nasal sinuses contain water, I don't know. Most of my elephants have been taken or finished with brain shots. When you take a brain shot on a live elephant the ears and trunk bleed profusely. Therefore these sinuses are filled with blood and there is no way to tell if they have significant amounts of fluid in their natural state.

You don't have to hit the brain to knockdown, knockout or kill an elephant with a brain shot. I have used the brain shot on 16 elephants and seen it used on 2 more. Based on this limited sample I conclude the following. (All bullets were Woodleigh RN solids in the following examples)

1. A 470 500 gr. bullet that hit the head 3" above the brain on a frontal shot only rocked the animal and did not seem to cause it any problems in escaping in a hurry.

2. 465 480 grain, 470 500 grain, 458 Lott 500 and 550 grain bullets that impact the head in line with the brain on frontal shots but miss to the right or left or under the brain by 2 or 3" always knocked them down, knocked them down and out, knocked them down and imobilized them to the point that they could not get up or in one case killed the elephant.

3. None of the above bullets except for the 458 Lott 550 grain exited the head on side brain shots. The 550 grain Woodleigh always exited the head on side brain shots and on two occasions they exited under the jaw on finishing shots to the top of the head of a large bull.

4. The side brain shot provides more resistsnce to bullet penetration than frontal ahots.

5. Penetration on frontal shots seem to be limited by whether or not the bullet impacts the spinal column (atlas or axis).


6. Within the same caliber a heavier slower bullet will penetrate deeper and have more knocdown effect than a faster lighter bullet. The 458 Lott with 550 grain Woodleighs at 2,150 fps. penetrates deeper and with more impact that the same with a 500 grain at 2,250fps. From my observations there is no doubt here.


How the concussion is transmitted to the brain, I do not know but there is No doubt that it occurs. If it didn't there would be a lot more dead elephant hunters.

465H&H

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:
LutzM

6. Within the same caliber a heavier slower bullet will penetrate deeper and have more knocdown effect than a faster lighter bullet. The 458 Lott with 550 grain Woodleighs at 2,150 fps. penetrates deeper and with more impact that the same with a 500 grain at 2,250fps. From my observations there is no doubt here.


How the concussion is transmitted to the brain, I do not know but there is No doubt that it occurs. If it didn't there would be a lot more dead elephant hunters.

465H&H

Hallo 465H&H,

welcome back and Waidmannsheil to the successful Hunter!

Your Point 6 is not in Doubt. To be precise, for a given Speed and Shape the Penetration linear grows with Sectional Density that is Mass per Area, provides the Bullet penetrates stable.

Thank You also for Your other Observations. Especially Number 1 told me, a near Miss in the upper Skull generates less Concussion than sideways or under the Brain. This corresponds to different Notes the upper Skulls Cavities are aired, whereas the lower Cavities are more often liquid filled.

Still somewhere in the Discussion I read, at the same Calibre and Weight, the faster Bullet will create bigger Concussion. While this is obvious, this Change cannot be achieved in the same Cartridge. Don’t come to me with up - download - Scenarios. They are obvious again. I mean larger Velocity differences.

If You just have one Rifle with one Cartridge, You just can decide on the Bullet (with accompanying suitable Load). Now the Question remains: If I want to maximise Concussion in an Elephants Head, that Brain I do not overshoot, but place the Bullet either 100% perfect in the Bran, or sideways or under into liquid filled Cavities. For a given Shape, say Flatnose, that penetrates stable with the shoulder stabilized Flat in the Front and exits, the faster one will impact more, than the slower one.

I shall revisit later, but have to pursue other Tasks now.

Lutz

Hallo my Friends,

sorry to invite You off AR; but it`s just so much easyer to edit Pictures and Tables in an HTML Editor. So please visist:

http://home.snafu.de/l.moeller/Englisch/Concussion.htm

Lutz

LutzM:

My McAfee SiteAdvisor software cautions that downloads from your site contain soft ware that some people consider as adware, spyware or other unwanted software. Please check your site or service provider.

Thanks

Geeze Lutz,

You miss so many points it is hard to begin.

First, the honeycomb contains liquid in 100% of its area in my experience - just that there is more liquid per unit volume the lower you go. I have killed one elephant with a too high miss and seen it done twice on Buzz's DVD, I think 465H&H has done it too. Yes, a low shot is better, but you can't ignore knock downs and knock outs from high shots either.

Roundnose steel jacketed solids travel nose first for the great majority of their penetration, and if they impact with enough velocity they will exit nose forward. It is only after roundnoses have substantially decelerated that they show evidence of tumbling.

A heavier but slower bullet in the same calibre will produce greater shock than a lighter one, given similar shapes, when the heavier one is traveling slower within reason. My .458" 450gr North Fork flat point solids penetrate better and deliver all the shock of the slower 500gr Woodleigh roundnoses which have a bit more energy, but I attribute 100% of the improvement on bullet shape.

You, like many others are fighting history and field results - read emperical data. Better to develop the theory that accounts for the field results than push a theory that contradicts today's and yesterday's field results.

JPK

Alf,

You miss read my very plain statement. I'll try again:

There is fluid from top to bottom of an elephant's honeycomb skull, but there is more fluid per given unit of honeycomb volume lower in the honey comb.

Nothing in my previuos post or this one mentions or is intended to imply that 100% of the honeycomb is 100% full of fluid.

From my experience, there is more fluid in cows from top to bottom than bulls, especially in the upper portions.

But again, review the photos I posted or the many others available elsewhere and you will see fluid seepeing from bullet holes wherever they may be.

JPK

/

quote:

LutzM:

My McAfee SiteAdvisor software cautions that downloads from your site contain soft ware that some people consider as adware, spyware or other unwanted software. Please check your site or service provider.

Thanks

Hallo,

I hope it`s not the Counter I introduced. For all the Calulators i use JavaScript. Maybe those are meant. If there is anything specific, please let me know, i would immediately check. I write all the Pages myself and therefore i wonder, what could be.

Lutz

A couple of years ago I took a frontal brain shot at a large cow with a deformed rear foot. I was using a 458 Lott with 550 grain Woodleigh solids. The bullet impacted 2 or 3' right of centerline and passed along the side of the brain. I did not follow the bullet so I do not know if it hit the neck vertebrae but this bullet and load is capable of that much penetration. The cow was knocked down and out. The unusual thing was that there was a literal river of blood pouring from her left ear. The amount was what I would have expected if the carotid had been cut through the neck. The blood was bright red and obviously arterial and not veinous. perhaps someone with a better understanding of the elephants circulatory system such as Alf can explain what artery was cut.

465H&H

Hallo JPK,

You wrote "You, like many others are fighting history and field results - read empirical data. Better to develop the theory that accounts for the field results than push a theory that contradicts today's and yesterday's field results."

No, I neither fight History nor ignore Field results. That so many Elephant hunters here sacrifice their Time and show Patience with an uninitiated but eager Listener like me, to actually share their Field Experience on Elephant, that I do not have, is the Reason for me to be here in this Discussion forum. I am here to learn!

To understand the Elephants Skull interior Construction is of paramount Importance to be able to design a suitable Elephant bullet, be it a Penetrator or Concussor. Remember ho I came here: Ulrik asked me for a 14,5 mm Kavitator for his .577" T-Rex. For some historical Reason from his Elephant Hunts he definitely wanted the utmost Penetration. I delivered.

Anything in Life and Nature comes at a Price. So to design after just one Goal, neglecting the Price, or in other Words, the accompanying Side effects, rarely yields an optimal balanced Result. The Kavitators have a slightly sub caliber Meplat, first to improve Penetration and second to gain better Feeding in a Magazine Rifle with Ramp. While the Latter is an indispensable Must, the First can be debated with different Goals in Mind. Independently varying the Meplat area influences two dependent Results in opposite Direction, namely Penetration and Concussion. Smaller Meplat Bullets penetrate deeper but concuss less. Larger Meplat bullet penetrate less, but concuss more. The Cause is simple: The Stagnation pressure distributes over the Meplat area. Its Integral over the Area is the Force that on the one Hand retards the Bullet and on the other Hand accelerates (= concusses) the Target Medium. There is no Doubt about it. This is the simple Part of Terminal ballistics for stable solid Bullets.

Now comes the tricky Part: The Elephants Head!

The Elephant Head is a highly elaborated light Construction, utilizing spaced thin walled Cavities between thicker Shells to gain great Stability at low Weight. The outer Shape specific target to offer large Connection Area for the big Neck muscles and the Trunk. This Large Area is necessary not to overstress the Bone Shell. In very simple Terms, leaving the Jaw and the Bones, to support its Muscles out, the Elephant Skull consist of two Spheroids in each other, connected with radial thin walled Cavity, plus a big Nose Channel in the Front. The Jaw supporting Bones attach like Grips to the Pot. With this Explanation none would not pass any biological Examination, but for us Hunters, this might do. Inside the inner corticoid Bone Spheroid lies the Brain, our primary Target.

The Brain, like all Nerves, reacts quite sensitive to Concussion. We concentrate here on the Question "How do I best concuss the Brain, when I miss the Brain?" Sure to shoot well and hit the Brain directly would be a better choice, but ballisticaly speaking, that again is not such a big Job.

If the Brain was all inside a Fluid ay near by passing Bullet would effect the Brain. As the Bullet passes by, it accelerates the Fluid partly in Flight direction and partly to the Side. Stream mechanics tell us how much, but for a bypassing Bullet, only the sideway Accelaration interest us, as only that concusses the Brain. The longitudinal Acceleration misses the Brain, just as the Bullet itself. Again simplyfying, the Acceleration propagates like a blowing up barrel with a Belly. Looking in radial Direction the Surface grow square to the Radius As the Bullet push induces Impulse per Length is fixed, once the Bullet moved, the Impulse density shrinks reverse to the Surface, o 1 by square Radius. This is important to know.

The Bullets Concussion, missing the Brain, reduces square to the Miss distance, if the Brain would be in a liquid filled Head.

Next lets look at at the same Thin-walled-Cavity-spaced-double-concentric-Spheroid-Structure we condensed the Elephant Head to earlier. On frontal a Miss-brain-shot, the Bullet "sees" first the Trunk, then the Nose Channel, both not so threatening to penetrate, then a first corticoid flat Bone at the Nose Channel, then some thin walled Cavities, and before exiting, again a flat cortical Bone Place, the outer Shell and bye, bye into the Sky. In this Case the only Possibility to rock the Head is to brake the Bones. Being solid they just transmit the applied Force an shake the Head in total.

The Bullets Concussion, missing the Brain, is independent of the Miss distance, if the Brain would be in aerated Cavity Head.

So maybe from these two principal, but opposite, Possibilities, we could learn from missed Brain shots more about the inner Build of the Elephants Head. What do You experienced Elephant Hunters say. Depends the Effect of a missed Brain shot on how much You miss, or not?

Lutz, 3rd April 2007, kjg@snafu.de

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:
A couple of years ago I took a frontal brain shot at a large cow with a deformed rear foot. I was using a 458 Lott with 550 grain Woodleigh solids. The bullet impacted 2 or 3' right of centerline and passed along the side of the brain. I did not follow the bullet so I do not know if it hit the neck vertebrae but this bullet and load is capable of that much penetration. The cow was knocked down and out. The unusual thing was that there was a literal river of blood pouring from her left ear. The amount was what I would have expected if the carotid had been cut through the neck. The blood was bright red and obviously arterial and not veinous. perhaps someone with a better understanding of the elephants circulatory system such as Alf can explain what artery was cut.

465H&H

I assume you do mean the bullet passed 2 to 3 inches right of centerline, and passed through brain tissue of the right cerebral hemisphere or right brainstem?

The pair of internal carotid arteries does indeed supply the base of the brain laterally right and left, and the basilar artery is located in the midline (posterior to the carotids, along the anterior brain stem). The basilar artery is formed by the junction of the right and left vertebral artery "tributaries" into a single basilar "river."

The internal carotids branch into anterior and middle cerebral arteries on each side. The origin of the middle cerebral is more like a direct extension of the internal carotid, after the anterior cerebral takes off.

The solitary basilar artery gives rise to the superior cerebellar arteries (right and left) before ending in its final fork into the posterior cerebral arteries (right and left).

Now, those anterior cerebral arteries (right and left) are bridged by the anterior communicating artery deep in the frontal brain, a little pipe connecting right to left arterial blood supply.

The posterior cerebral arteries each are supplied by/connected to the adjacent (ipselateral) internal carotid artery via the posterior communicating artery on each side.

Thus there is a completed circle of arterial connections supplying the brain.

The "Circle of Willis" is common to elephant and man.

The most likely source of the the bleed you noted, out the elephant's ear, was a severed right middle cerebral artery, which is indeed as big at its origin as the right carotid artery is at its termination, for they are one and the same at that point. The skull fracture pattern might allow blood to go out either ear, or both.

Arterial blood flowing out of the brain on one side can come from all three major ateries supplying the brain: right and left internal carotid arteries and the basilar artery.

A bullet through the brain can make a bloody mess of things for the elephant!

BTW, thanks to ALF for restating my position on the aeration of elephant skulls.

LuyzM

It is a well known fact that a boxer can knock out an opponent with a suffeciently hard blow to the chin or side of the jaw even with a gloved hand. The concussive affect must be passed along the hard bones of the jaw to the skull and finally to the brain to cause such a knockout. Is it possible that the same occurs with elephant. I bullet that hits the skull at say the supra orbital bone or the bone housing the external ear canal transmit the concusive shock to the hard bones surronding the brain cavity?

Your question on whether a close hit will be more effective than a farther hit is interesting and my first reaction is to say "definately". But with further reflection I need to think more on that.

465H&H.

quote:

Originally posted by ALF:
JPK

"First, the honeycomb contains liquid in 100% of its area in my experience - just that there is more liquid per unit volume the lower you go."

What is there to misunderstand about 100 % of the "honecomb" contatining fluid ?

Again you make a statement that this "fluid", which is actually mucous which coates and protects the membrane will collect or locate based on gravity ( lower having more than upper)??????

This is not true nor factual.

The mucous moves or is more correctly moved along the surface of the sinus in a set pathway that is neither based on gravity nor pathways that are arranged to drain lower sinusses via a lowest point arrangement..... these cavities are not simply vessels with spigots at their lowest points.

Vacation of mucous is predetermined by the cilliary action of the membrane. The pathway or route is constant for all of a species, so that each region will vacate mucous in a constant manner and will empty into the nasal passage via set openings.

I have seen no evidence to support the notion that "lower" air sinusses have more goblet cells that "upper" sinusses or that mucous production is sex related with the female of the species producing more mucous per unit volume in the sinus than the male.

In fact I discussed this just the other day with the former Professor of ENT surgery at the University of the Orange Free State confirming the work done by Prof Van der Merwe at Onderstepoort on the anatomy of juvenile and adult African elephant skulls.

This has implication regarding the spread of disease etc. for instance local spread of say infection or malignant tumour would be along the pathway of mucous evacuation.

It also asssumes that the animal is in fact alive because once death sets in the ciliary action stops.

Alf,

If there is fluid in "100% of the honeycomb area" but there "is more fluid per unit of volume the lower you go" then obviously the honeycomb in the upper portion of the head cannot be full.

Yes, you did misread my post.

Whatever you want to call the fluid, there is more lower in the honeycomb and more in cows, generally. When you go to chop open a skull the liquid flying and flowing is pretty obvious. And there is more of it lower in the skull, but some everwhere.

Again, look at the photos I posted or other photos and witness the seep of fluid from bullet holes.

JPK

/

I saw nothing to dispute Alf's description. Although, I didn't see any fluid when a bull skull was chopped as I did with a cow skull. Whether that is enough fluid to transmit a shock wave to the brain I cannot say but I think the theory of the concussion wave being trahsmitted along the hard bones has more merit.

465H&H

My Friends,

the Elephant skull interior, specially the Question when the Sinusses are aerated (live) and when they may be liquid filled (after Death) has been widely and precisely outlined, misunderstood, discussed, clarified and can now finally be agreed upon, I believe.

Ore are there still Objections to be raised, JPK?

If not, then it’s Time to understand, how the aerated Head can be knocked. Leaving the “Water hammer Theory†behind, remains the inelastic Push of two solid Bodies as the major Model to explain the Impact transfer = the Heads Concussion. I condition to major, as Bones are elastic and the to be drawn Picture leaves that out for now.

The inelastic Push describes two relative moving Masses, that connect and then move together. Energy is not conserved. Impulse is. I write the Model later, but You will find it in any School grade Mechanics textbook, probably even on the Net.

Lutz

4/

This is an extremely informative thread.......

This is some of the best informative bullet thread i have ever read and will proably ever read..

Now how has the 404 bullets that you make Luts worked, i took an look on you page and 900 meters with an 280 grain bullet, hmm sheeprifle indeed.

The classic rounds gets better with modern bullets and powder, i wonder what Jeffery, Rigby, Brenneke and others would have said had they known what has happended in recent years.

And Pondoro would never find time to write he would just be busy testing the 577 caliber bullets and many others on elephant.

So in short, the FN bullets are better because they dont tumble because they cut awy the resienstance in the media they passes, whereas the RN types they meet resictance.

And they get stopped by it as they travel through and they tumble because they cant cut through the media as their flightpaths are hampered beacuse the vakuumbubble actually hampers the bullets and slows ot down?

quote:

Originally posted by LutzM:
My Friends,

the Elephant skull interior, specially the Question when the Sinusses are aerated (live) and when they may be liquid filled (after Death) has been widely and precisely outlined, misunderstood, discussed, clarified and can now finally be agreed upon, I believe.

Ore are there still Objections to be raised, JPK?

If not, then it’s Time to understand, how the aerated Head can be knocked. Leaving the “Water hammer Theory†behind, remains the inelastic Push of two solid Bodies as the major Model to explain the Impact transfer = the Heads Concussion. I condition to major, as Bones are elastic and the to be drawn Picture leaves that out for now.

The inelastic Push describes two relative moving Masses, that connect and then move together. Energy is not conserved. Impulse is. I write the Model later, but You will find it in any School grade Mechanics textbook, probably even on the Net.

Lutz

Lutz,

No we do not agree. I would need confirmation that of all the times Alf has cut open a live elephant's skull he has found no liquid. Otherwise I just can't see how all of the times that I've brain shot or missed an elephant's brain that the liquid just appears at the shot. Brain shoot or miss an elephant and you have liquid seeping out of the bullet holes. I doesn't come from the ether.

JPK

JPK

It appeared to me that the liquid that seeps from the head shot eles was primarily blood. I may be wrong but it appears to be blood from the skin and muscle under the skin. if twere was a significant amount of liquid seeping from the head I would expect it to be much more watery in consistency.

465H&H

465H&H,

In your two photos, I agree. I've got similar photos too and see them regularly. I think if not primarily blood then a good portion.

But go to the photos that I posted in this thread previously - or better yet I'll post them here in a moment - and you will note the absence of blood or tissue and only the thin, clear seep spreading. I see photos like this regularly too.

One of the earlier photos:


JPK

This is the most intelligent thread I've read, even though I only understand about half of it!!

Hi Guys

IMHO if you hit any animal in the brain there will be leakage of cerebro-spinal fluid (CSF) mixed with blood. This is the liquid that surrounds the brain. Human head trauma victims with fractured skulls leak blood and straw coloured fluid from nose and ear which is CSF while their siunus remain air filled apart from this fluid now collecting in the spaces.
In addition the liquid shown leaking is insignificant in terms of scale of the animal. If you empty a litre canteen of water on the animal you'll see a much bigger stain

Mark

Also a bullet that transverses the musth gland will excrete the clear musth gland excretions. The gland is quite large 8"-10" in diameter and approximately pancake in shape. The musth gland opening is actually on the lower portion of the gland and the gland extends 4" to 5" behind the opening on the skin.

465H&H

quote:

Originally posted by MarkH:
Hi Guys

IMHO if you hit any animal in the brain there will be leakage of cerebro-spinal fluid (CSF) mixed with blood. This is the liquid that surrounds the brain. Human head trauma victims with fractured skulls leak blood and straw coloured fluid from nose and ear which is CSF while their siunus remain air filled apart from this fluid now collecting in the spaces.
In addition the liquid shown leaking is insignificant in terms of scale of the animal. If you empty a litre canteen of water on the animal you'll see a much bigger stain

Mark

Mark, you can see in 465H&H's photos the blood and other fluid coming from the entrance holes and also from the ears.

In my photo there is no blood. The fluid is seeping from an exit wound and clear fluid was leaking from the entrance as well. I'm not sure if this shot passed through the brain since it was an insurance shot and there was no reaction. Maybe not much volume, but consider that the bullet was traveling up when it exited so the seep is from fluid right there, not flowing down and out the wound chanel. And it is wicking upward from the wound. I wish I had a photo of the other side, I don't recall how much fluid was seeping out.

While I have seen copious blood flow and gland secretions from a couple of elephants, nothing is really significant in volume when your talking elephants.

JPk

Hi JPK

You would not have to hit the brain as such to get CSF flowing out of the cranial cavity. Just fracturing and tearing the bone and membranes surrounding the brain is enough to cause the fluid to drain. This fluid is also under +ve pressure as the brain floats in it.

Mark

quote:

Originally posted by MarkH:
Hi Guys

IMHO if you hit any animal in the brain there will be leakage of cerebro-spinal fluid (CSF) mixed with blood. This is the liquid that surrounds the brain. Human head trauma victims with fractured skulls leak blood and straw coloured fluid from nose and ear which is CSF while their siunus remain air filled apart from this fluid now collecting in the spaces.
In addition the liquid shown leaking is insignificant in terms of scale of the animal. If you empty a litre canteen of water on the animal you'll see a much bigger stain

Mark

Right on. It is CSF.
Now Alf can tell us how much volume of CSF is contained within the brain's ventricles, and surrounding the brain and spine of Jumbo. That would be at least an order of magnitude greater than the musth secretions.

Any vets do spinal taps on elephants? What is the opening pressure on an elephant LP? How many feet of water?

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:

quote:

Originally posted by MarkH:
Hi Guys

IMHO if you hit any animal in the brain there will be leakage of cerebro-spinal fluid (CSF) mixed with blood. This is the liquid that surrounds the brain. Human head trauma victims with fractured skulls leak blood and straw coloured fluid from nose and ear which is CSF while their siunus remain air filled apart from this fluid now collecting in the spaces.
In addition the liquid shown leaking is insignificant in terms of scale of the animal. If you empty a litre canteen of water on the animal you'll see a much bigger stain

Mark

Right on. It is CSF.
Now Alf can tell us how much volume of CSF is contained within the brain's ventricles, and surrounding the brain and spine of Jumbo. That would be at least an order of magnitude greater than the musth secretions.

Any vets do spinal taps on elephants? What is the opening pressure on an elephant LP? How many feet of water?

Take a look at the amount of secreation from thw musth gland of this cow. It covers a good portion of the head. It was not shot through the musth gland. The portion that seeped down the jaw has already started to dry out but the portion over the head and eye is stilling running. I doubt you would see more CSF fluid coming out of a bullet hole.



465H&H

NOT a zombie post resurrection

I read last week that the US military has gone from playing in swimming pools to ordering equipment to shoot rifles under water -- and while the article was full of sound and fury, they did mention specially designed bullets, but i don't recall that they called upon the proper term of cavitation -

Lutz, this one on you, buddy?

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:
Take a look at the amount of secreation from thw musth gland of this cow.

Serious question: Do elephant cows go into musth like bulls do ?

quote:

Originally posted by ALF:
Both male and female elephant have temporal glands. However in the female the glands do not secrete and are vestigial.

Like tits on a boar hog.

Secretion of Temporin during the Musth is in response to elevated testosterone levels during the rut.

So 465H&H was talking out of his ass about the cow elephant temporal gland drainage.
Thanks for confirming that, Alf.

More interesting: Underwater firearms use.

Rip ...

This thread is useless without pics! All the old pics are gone. Anyone have pics of these old bullets? Lehigh defense has a whole line of these bullets.

Well! That was interesting.

Way more than I know about any animal I have shot and killed.

Somewhere early in this thread, someone posted that his shot with a North Fork FPS shot through the ele brain and head. That is good to hear.

Our bullet testing shoot 10-12 years ago came to the same conclusion.
Our .458 NF 450 grain FPS and Punch 430 grain FPS bullets (NC turned brass with lead filled anal cavity) both shot through on frontal brain shots and buried themselves into the ele body. Also these bullets were travelling less than 2100 fps.
I have no more current information as these results are not easy to surpass, no matter how much liquid is in the ele head. BTW, the photos showed little or no liquid drainage on the front of the head; no explanation here either.

Blood is shear thinning. Now that is a great design!! I learned something important before breakfast today. I appreciate that Alf.
Best regards.