quote:

Lutz - Was the above from H. Ulfhere?


The Nickudu Files

Hallo Nick,

Yes, this was from some Mail Ulfhere aka Harol Ledbetter and I exchanged Years ago, when I developed the Penetration calculator. I actually contacted Manfred Held and he advised some of his Staff to send me the Poncelet Equations. The French are never to be underestimated. They had and have lot of good Mathematicians. Poncelet solved the Penetration problem in the same Way I did already at Napoleons Time. So my Model (As I had no Idea of Poncelet) is a bit outdated and “Halâ€, as he usually signed his Emails, pointed the nowadays known Deficiencies out to me.

The Email in Question deals mostly with the Problem how to quantify the Effects of a deforming Bullet, that penetrates. He rightfully notices, the Bullet itself “eats†Impulse and kinetic Energy, otherwise useful to push it a little further.

Lead Bullets deform from about 400 m/s Impact velocities in meat and spray themselves into Dust above about 550 m/s. The means, any simple or jacketed Lead bullets will after a short Travel in Meat, be slower then 550 m/s. Then its Speed will exponentially decay down to about 150 m/s , when the Cavitation brakes down, the Meat stream attached again, and Resistances increases. Only at such slow Velocity regime, the Shear properties of Meat show up with considerable Influence. When would the Retardation from Stagnation Pressure equal that of the Stuffs Shear strength?

Stagnation pressure p = ½ • rho • v² in the Nose center, smaller on the Edge. For a penetrating Cylinder, Duncan McPherson measured those effects and presented a Drag coefficient Cd (Cylinder) to be 0,83. So in practical Term, or integrated over the flat nosed Bullet Nose the Equation reads

Cylinder Stagnation Pressure p = ½ • rho • v² • Cd(Cylinder)

To shear the penetrated soft Matter into fine grained Debris I assume, an Area A equal to the Bullets surface has to be cut and milled. Again Hal would pop up and rightfully remark “Your Analysis is too simplistic!†Looking at Andy Bullet stuck in Wood, one notices, the permanent wound channel is of bigger diameter than the Bullet. On the other Hand cuts the Bullet most sharply at the Edge and less in the Middle. As I have not developed any Idea how the Behaviour in these Respects really is, I let them level them out against each other into Insignificance. I may be simple, but that stems from an educated Guess, not from Ignorance.

I noticed in Live, when You make the basic Things right, nothing really big goes wrong . Now, where are we here. We look for a Penetration model for an Elephants Head and do net really know how much Bone to penetrate in the typical Position (Head up, Head straight, Head down) just from the Front. We know big the Skull it, but do not know ho Sinusses and Bone dispatch by Volume. Now that is very basic Thing, to first know the Target, before You start Calculus.

Would one pleas take an old Elephants Head, that had bee lying around for Years and the Ant have been eating all Matter in it, except for the Bone an measure its outer Dimensions and then weigh it. Then we could deduct how much Bone and how much hollow the Bullet would face.

Action: Who? When? Where? Volunteers please t the Front! I bet on AR to find Support!

The speed independent Shear Force F would Equal Area A times Shear sigma

F = A • sigma

The Retardation Force from the Stagnation pressure equal Pressure p times Area A

So the Equilibrium can be found at F = F or

½ • rho • v² • Cd(Cylinder) • A = A • sigma (take A and reformat, then take square root)

v = square root [(2 • sigma) / (rho • Cd)]

rho | Meat = 1060, rho | Bone hm, I always assume 2, but I really do not know. Alf?

Sigma | Meat = about 4 to10 kp/cm² (check Yourself, rip a Steak apart) = 4 to 10 MPa , sigma | Bone = 120 to 170 MPa

Stagnation-Shear-Equilibrium-Speed for Meat = 98 m/s

Stagnation-Shear-Equilibrium-Speed for Bone, cross = 390 m/s

Stagnation-Shear-Equilibrium-Speed for Bone, length = 465 m/s

As the Stagnation pressure grows square with Velocity, but Shear strength does not, we learn something quite interesting. Suddenly Alf’s Notion, to describe the Bullet, penetrating the Elephant head as:

quote:

We basically have two types of bone, hard cortical bone and " soft" spongiosa bone. In the case of cortical bone such as the diaphyses of long bones it resembles a vase filled with fluid (marrow fat) so that the forces that impact the bone when the bullet strikes have elastic collision effects at impact but also the effect of the rapid displacement of relatively non compressable marrow fat shattering the bone.

Sadly bone does not behave like glass, as glass is typically isotropic and bone shows a specific type of anisotropism called Ortho-tropism.

The very same models of viscous tissue penetration also apply to bone as shown by the studies of Huelke who showed that bone behaves just like muscle during projectile penetration, in that the permanent channel is actually smaller than the largest outside diameter of the projectile meaning that temporary cavitation effect is at work and that bone is in fact elastic, with very strong and definite visco-elastic properties. ( this we know as orthopaedic surgeons who have to marry steel prosthetics to living bone)

appears to be right on the Mark. The ballistic Speed Train accelerated over Time. Since we left the Spear (10 m/s), Arrow (100 m/s) and Black Powder Balls from Muskets (400 m/s) and went to Nitro Express (600 m/s ) the bone penetrating Bullet “feels†more of the viscous Bone properties than ever before. Also remember, viscous Resistance (stagnation pressure) increases square with velocity, but Poncelet’s Penetration does not. That increases only linear with sectional density. Now add Hal’s Remark, not to forget the Bullets own Energy consumption for itself deforming, we suddenly have Numbers to explain why

1. Deforming bullets penetrate less than Solids.

2. Stable Bullets penetrate deeper than tumbling ones (unless obsolete round Ball from, say an 8 Bore)

3. Out of the same Calibre, longer Bullets with higher Sectional Density, hence slower, penetrate deeper than shorter, hence faster Bullets, Condition 2 provided.

I believe the last Remark about the Stability condition, that must be met to predict Penetration accurately, explain 500Grains Observation, bigger Meplat bullets penetrate better that smaller ones. As we saw above, in stark Contrast to popular Believe “Bigger is better†Caliber itself has no Influence at all on Penetration. Now why then the Observation? Well slender pencil like Bullets, stretched in Length to the Max, will more often than shorter fatter Bullets tumble. Unfortunately at this Time I have no Numbers to quantify the Effect, but maybe later will (Help wanted!).

We will get the Elephant head Penetration model, I believe, but all Thinking must remain in Vein, unless someone tells me how much naked Bone the Elephants Skull presents to the frontal Bullet in the three typical Angles. Please help!

Section a new Skull and measure that, or take an old Skull, measure the Outside and weigh it. I have no Means to obtain the Data, unless some of You Guys will help me. Then I promise to do the Rest! Now please go an act!


Lutz

Hi,

if You like ballistic Movies, then check

http://forumcine.free.fr/308Gel.swf.html

http://forumcine.free.fr/Action4a.swf.html

http://forumcine.free.fr/223gelatin2.swf.html

http://forumcine.free.fr/plexglassBG.swf.html

and here are some Stills

http://home.snafu.de/l.moeller/Zielwirkung/RUAG/300-Barnes-X.pdf

http://home.snafu.de/l.moeller/Zielwirkung/RUAG/300-CDP.pdf

http://home.snafu.de/l.moeller/Zielwirkung/RUAG/300-SwiftScirocco.pdf

http://home.snafu.de/l.moeller/Zielwirkung/RUAG/375H&HSeife1.pdf

Lutz

I shot some bullet proof glass, about 3 inches thick, with a .375 using solids. The bullet proof glass exploded like a hand grenade, sending some chunks as far as 50 yards down range.

Anyone who thinks he is safe behind bullet proof glass better think again.

/

Hallo Alf,

Steyr makes such Dart or Flechette Rifle:



The nice Thing about it is:



You always have Friend to share the Adventures, as You cannot carry it alone so the sold them to Iran.

Lutz

Lutz, Hal, Gerard, or Mike Bradey,

What do you think an "educated guess" would be for the drage coefficient for a Truncated Cone FN be?

And for a RN-FN?

I do not have my copy of MacPherson here as I leant it to another shooter.

I recall he tested SWC, WC, and conical.

Andy

/

Andy,

guess Cd for Meat or Water well above 150 m/s:

Cylinder 0,83
Lens 0,70 (Equlibrium Deformator, my own Guess, other Numbers from D. McPherson)
Roundnose 0,57
45° Cone 0,52

but do not forget Stability! Else You tumble the Cylinder sideways and Things drastically change.

Lutz

/

/

Alf, please see your private messages.

quote:

Originally posted by 500grains:
I shot some bullet proof glass, about 3 inches thick, with a .375 using solids. The bullet proof glass exploded like a hand grenade, sending some chunks as far as 50 yards down range.

Anyone who thinks he is safe behind bullet proof glass better think again.

I shot a nice clean hole through a 1/4" to 1/2" thick steel plate (I don't remember exact thickness) with a 300 grain solid from a .375 H&H, also around 50 yards. I would think it takes quite alot to stop a solid bullet with good sectional density.

quote:

By using scaling ( downsizing the bullet to fit the size of the model) one can do the same with Synbone skull and flatbone models. Mathematical models can be derived that would predict what would happen if you used a large bore bulet in a large model ( full sized elepehant skull)

Alf,

good News to read, indeed, if we were not lacking something very basic! That is Geometry of Bone and Hollows in the Elefant skull. So we do not know, which Wall thickness we have to pnetrate and how often. Unless we know that NO model could predict anything! Please help!

Lutz
p.s, By the Way i did not phone Synbone yet, and now is too late for today.

Wink,

look here







I had this Iron plate near a "Hochsitz" to test shoot my Rifle in my own Wildcat,



the 8,5 x 64 in 50 m Distance. I hoped to ring a Bell , when i hit. Unfortunately the Steel was so soft, that the Bullets went just trough.

Lutz

Alf,

The medium density we are most interested in would be both muscle and bone if you have time to post those.

Velocity typical for a FN solid. So 2,150 fps (.458 and DR's), 2,400 fps (.416 and HV .458's), and 2550 fps (.375 and HV SD .305 monometals like 370 grain .416 and 450 grain .458's).

So I am interested in velocities somewhat higher than you listed, but imagine any RN or FN will soon decelerate to those levels you are showing. Thanks.

Lutz, do I understand you correctly, to mean a "Lens" is a stable Truncated Cone Flat Nose solid?

Andy

/

Andy wrote

quote:

Lutz, do I understand you correctly, to mean a "Lens" is a stable Truncated Cone Flat Nose solid?

Andy,

I mean this Shape (not a flat Nose):




If my Memory serves me right, those are 14,5 g Hornady Interlock Lead Bullets, fired from my own 8,5x64 into Bison. What I call the "Lense" like a Lentil or however the right English Word is, means the Isobars of a Free fluid stream hitting a Plate, mathematicaly an Elippsoid with Axes 2: 1 and the Flow runing in Hyperbolas.

In other Words, the Shape of any not so soft Bullet hitting a softer Target.

Pentration Calculations and Observation for this "Lense-", "Lentil-", or "Ellipsoid-Shape" correlate best with an assumed Cd of 0,7. While McPherson found 0,83 for a cylinder, i.e. Flat nose.

Lutz

Alf wrote

quote:

What I do intend doing is to speak to the Anatomy guys at Onderstepoort in July to see if we cannot get the combined measurements of total amount of actual bone that need to be traversed in a typical frontal shot with trajectory as I show on my pics.

Alf,

don`t call me a Homo, but i love You for that! Ecaxtly this Number is missing. When we have that Number for Head up, normal and down, we can simulate and develop a SynSkull.

Meanwhile i was not lazy and talked to some Guys at the Fraunhofer Institute IFAM in Bremen, who synthesize Bones virtual and real, like here



We have a Max Plank Institue here, dealing with Bone and I will call the Section Head from


about the Density distribution and such. Maybe he can help.

Mark (the one with the speedy .375" H&H ) recommended to look in Berlin in the rather big Natural Science Museum for a real Elefant Skull, near by. They have none on Display, but sure one in the Archives.

Maybe i can get Access. Hurray, We are on our Way!

Lutz
p.s. Means cancellous Bone the spongious Substance inside the Cortical Bone?

LutzM


I'll be in Zimbabwe next week hunting elephant and I will try to get some measurements from dried skulls as well as from the elephants we shoot.

465H&H

Lutz,

My PH Myles McCallum and I moved an elephant skull around to take digital photos for his partner, Buzz Charlton's video the day I left Dande North.

Two men can easily lift a dry elephant skull. It is more ackward than heavy. I am only 132 pounds and could move it around myself (carefully) to take pictures. I doubt it is over 60 pounds minus the lower jaw.

465 should get good data for you.

By the way the mandible is solid bone and those molars can really chew up a bullet. It deformed one of my TCCI brass solids. (See photo above).

Andy

/

On a Side note,

Claus Otterbein believes his .375 Hölderlin, just in the Making, will do quite well on Elephant. Look here





The .375"Hölderlin is a necked up 8x38S to 9,5 mm and will be offered rimless an flanged for Double barreled Rifles too. Heym cooperates. The Gunsmith involved is Lutz Lorberg

Lutz

p.s. While I cannot get the Bone man from the MPI on the Phone right away, I remember the President of our hunting Club in Hamburg has a Zoo, Hagenbeck since 100 Years, actually the larget private Zoo in Europe. So there should be one or two Heads in the Cellar. I will contact him too.

Lutz

A Message from the Master



Booktrail wrote

quote:

Africa boasts more varieties of big game than any other continent. Almost all these animals have very different "kill zones," but knowing where to place a killing shot (the most important criterion in hunting) is bewildering to even an experienced African hunter. Kevin Robertson, a PH and veterinarian from Zimbabwe, has created the most comprehensive work ever undertaken to show the anatomical features for all classes of African game--from the largest, thick-skinned elephant and buffalo, to the large cats, to the antelopes (eland, sable, etc.), and finally to the smallest game animals (duiker and warthog). Each animal is shown in a color field picture as well as a color "ghost view" that illustrates the shoulder bones, heart, lungs, and brain so you will know precisely where to place your shot. The invaluable natural history section on each animal contains trophy assessment hints as well as how to determine the sex of an animal. Other chapters include caliber and bullet selection, rifle selection, trophy handling, and basic animal anatomy. This great reference work is a must-have for your next safari.

Reply - Elephant skull bone, how much to penetrate!

Hello Lutz.

There is very little 'solid bone' in an elephant's head. Much of the head is 'honeycombed' in construction and the spaces this creates are filled with 'jelly-like' bone marrow which is of a consistency similar to ballistic gelatin.

If an elephants head was solid bone it would be so heavy the elephant would not be able to lift it and in order for it to do so, it would have to have huge shoulders and a neck hump like a rhino.

An elephant's long leg bones are practically solid - there is virtually no marrow cavity - the marrow which is there in other animals and which makes blood cells, is in the elephant's head. The distance from the front of the forehead to the front part of an elephant's brain is about 18 inches.

This can vary tremendously as the size of elephants varies a great deal. For example, the bulls in Hwange and Etosha are huge compared to those in the Selous. Also, the angle of the head at the time of the shot makes a huge difference to the distance a bullet will need to travel to reach the brain.

Elephants are short sighted and as soon as they see something suspicious they lift their head to peer down at it. This changes all the angles and at such times a shot will have to be placed so that it angles diagonally up through the top of the trunk to reach the brain. An elephant's trunk is very thick, tough and fibrous - almost gristly in fact. This is a serious obstacle for any bullet, as is the skin which is particularly tough.

So, I'm sorry I can't really answer your question as I have never thought to put all the pieces of honeycombed bone together to measure how thick it all really is.

What I think is more important than the thickness of the bone is the distance a bullet needs to penetrate and all the different layers of different consistencies - skin, muscle, gristle, thin bone and jelly, to get to where intended.

I hope this helps.

Kevin Robertson
Dear Kevin,

thank You very much for Your very welcome quick Answer!

I already know about the Honeycomb structure:

http://home.snafu.de/l.moeller/Wild/Elefantenjagd/Elefantenschaedelwaben.jpg

Bute the greatest News to me are, first the Elephants legs are almost solid and second and even more surprising, the blood cell generating Bone marrow is located up in the Head. That is quite unusual for all the Animals I know, but I am only a Hunter and Ballistician, not formal trained Veterinarian.

Sure the Angle makes a huge Difference, but not only to the worse side, as the elephant brain is a bit shallow or flattish, and when he lifts his Head, he presents more Target area to the Hunter. So while the Situation worsens for the Bullet, it eases it for the Hunter. Also the Hunter from the Reaction "Short sighted Elephant lifts the Head" now knows, the Animal is alerted.

While I never saw Elephant Meat myself, most Information calls it coarse Fibrous. You call it gristly. Maybe I should look for an African Restaurant to find it. Africans know to handle Meat rather well!

Elephant beat being of the described Consistence, the Substance is best described and handles as soft, elastic and viscous. These Properties are easy to handle In a Simulation, like here

http://home.snafu.de/l.moeller/Englisch/Penetration_Calculator_2.html

When You again come across an Elephant's Head and have Time, Will and Leisure, please do me the Favour to measure the actual hard Bone to penetrate in a frontal Brain shot in the undisturbed Situation and the Alerted one, with Head up.

I only encountered Fake attacks. The Elephant raised his Head, raised the Ears, and, if I recall right, also raised the Trunk (mad himself look bigger, as if he was not big enough yet (A Problem with Self esteem?)) and moved straight to me, until I backwards retreated. How would en Elephant hold his Head and Trunk, when he seriously attacks?

Kind Regards Lutz

Elephant meat is very course and rough textured in my opinion.

In a serious charge the elephant drops its head, folds its ears back and curls up its trunk under its chest. When you see this, he or she means business.

When I next find an elephant scull, I'll have a look.

Kevin

http://home.snafu.de/l.moeller/

P.s. Next Wednesday the 7th March I have an Appointment in Hamburg with a lengthwise sectioned Elephant skull to measure and photograph. Please wait for further Notice!

/

Lutz,

Elephant trunk meat is stringy and fibrous looking when the trunk is removed. But elephant cheek meat is relatively tender and about the same as a tough beef steak. Eaten, it is the same as well, a bit chewy like a london broil (top round steak?), but also quite delicious.

When wet the thin bone of the honeycomb has some give, or flexibility. I wouldn't go so far to call it "spongy" but it is no where near brittle. The same bone is very brittle when dry. I suspect the live bone eats bullet energy where the dry bone could not.

JPK

JPK wrote

quote:

When wet the thin bone of the honeycomb has some give, or flexibility. I wouldn't go so far to call it "spongy" but it is no where near brittle. The same bone is very brittle when dry. I suspect the live bone eats bullet energy where the dry bone could not.

Hallo JPK,

As far as I know, Bone is a mineralized Collagen Structure, the latter Matter being some large molecular weight Protein stuff that can absorb quite some Water. We hunters know that, when we weigh fresh Antlers or older dried ones later on, that are always lighter.

Water soaked wet Collagen probably spaces the hard Mineral plates wider apart, than dry one. If I am correct, this would explain the elastic Properties of wet Bone over dry Bone. Various Contributors to the fine Thread also mentioned, Bones mineralize further with Age. That explains two Observations. First, young Individuals cannot move as precise as older ones. Second, when falling, young Individuals less often brake their Bones, compared to old ones.

For Bone of 1850 kg/m³ Density remembering

Stagnation-Shear-Equilibrium-Speed for Meat = 98 m/s

Stagnation-Shear-Equilibrium-Speed for Bone, cross = 390 m/s

Stagnation-Shear-Equilibrium-Speed for Bone, length = 465 m/s

means in the Elephants Head with quite some Trunk meat, and Marrow filled Cavities the soft-visco-elastic Model should better describe the Penetration, than the hard-shear-Model. InOther Words, the Bone is less important, than previously anticipated. Next Wednesday I will visit a lenghthwise section Elephant Head in the zoological Archive of the Hamburg University. They have 23.000 Skulls and the Chief Preparator is in the same Hunting club, as I am, so I get Access with a Scale and Camera. So if I understand which Cavities are filled with Air and which with Marrow, then a Model should become closer in Reach.

I believe, together we will master the Task.

Lutz
p.s. To compare the "Energy-Eating" of an elastic Structure over a brittle one is not simple, as again the Properties must be know, the Elasticity and the ultimate Strenght. The Model would be a Mass containing Spring, You stretch up to the ultimate possible Tension, that then brakes. This is possible to calculate, when You have the applicable Data.

Alf, Lutz and Kevin,

Thank you all for responding to this thread.

We have come a long way!

I did not know that the blood I saw in my elephant skull was actually closer to bone marrow (fat).



Very interesting!

From Lutz,

quote:

means in the Elephants Head with quite some Trunk meat, and Marrow filled Cavities the soft-visco-elastic Model should better describe the Penetration, than the hard-shear-Model.

From Alf,

quote:

So when projectiles penetrate in a path on the way to the brain cavity they traverse a variable amount of muscle (trunk) air ( nasal cavities in the trunk and behind the incisive bone) cortical bone, spongiosa bone filld with marrow fat and finally air spaces ( sinusses)

Both Alf and Lutz's observations would certainly explain why a FN out performs a RN.

But the over all thickness of bone must be fairly modest, or the RN would out perform the FN.

Based on my experiments with the 450-465 grain FN and RN, the thickness of bone in an elephant skull may be equal to 60 inches of water for a FN. (The 450 grain NF-FN penetrates +120 inches in water and +60 inches in elephant skull).

If that 2:1 ratio holds true, that would be equal to 26 boards in the La Grange stop box for a FN. (The 450 grain NF penetrated 52 boards).

So we may need a test medium that is equivelant to 60 inches of water and 26 x 3/4 inch plywood boards. (Sounds a lot like RIP's "Iron Buffalo"). 13 x 3-4 inch thick water or bone marrow containers, and 26 x 3/4 inch simbones might do the trick.

It will be interesting to see how we can inject bone marrow or fat into simbone?!

Thanks again to you all for this interesting journey.

Andy

/

Lutz,

Please note that regards to the long leg bones of an elephant, I wrote that they were 'practically' solid.

All the elephant long bones I have broken open were completely dry when i did so, and they had very small what the layman would call 'marrow cavities' and there were filled with a fine spider web-like spongy bone.

When teaching learner PH's, we always referred to these bones as 'solid' so as to re-inforce the idea that is was not a good idea to try and hit one of them with an inadequate bullet. It all depands on how detailed and technical one wants to get with such issues.

Generally when teaching ballistics and basic animal anatomy, I'm used to be dealing with students who are at 'layman' level - a PH school is not vet school so there is no point in going into too finer detail - they don't understand all this anyway.

Kevin

Savchenko states the CD of a Cylinder to be 0,82, opposed to McPherson, who says 0,83. So far so good, pretty close!

While McPherson states 150 m/s minimal Velocity for a Ball to fully cavitate, Savchenko names only 70 m/s for a Cylinder to supercavitate.

That is another Reason, why flat noses Bullet penetrate deeper in Meat, than Round noses (that tumble anyway).

Lutz

Alf,

Fantastic detail.

Maybe a purely mathematical model will be possible if you can assign density, shear strength and whether a "soft visco-elastic" or "hard-shear model" is used depending on the bullet path?

A+ thesis!

PS, it has occurred to me that a 20% gelatin solution like that used by NATO for many years (prior to IWBA calibration) might have enough specific gravity and solids to simulate an elephant skull?

The old "NATO" blocks were dark brown and solid enough that you could pick them up and move them around. (10% IWBA is almost clear and like moving a jelly fish).

Educated guess; Two 2 x 3 foot foot blocks should stop a big bore and would be long enough to correlate to a FN in elephant.

What do you think?

Andy

Hallo Andy,

You may read Jussila about Gelatine and other Simulants. Funny Thing is, he did not propose a Model. Also he states Bone density to a meager 1,11 g/ml (not 1,85 g/ml!).

The Trick with any Model will be to assign appropriate Numbers to the anticipated Layers for the Minimal Invasive Elephant Killer bullet (MIEK), as the Army immediately would dub it in their usual Abbreviation fever.

Of Course Alf's Work to explain us the Skull bones is wonderful, but that is so obvious, to mention it, would be liek, to carry Owls to Athens. But now You started, I shall duly join the Cheer: Thanks Alf for the good Work! The Downside is, now I must learn those Bones by Heart and memorize them. The Goal is an internal 3-D-Model of the Elephants Skull under the Skin.

Kevins Note on the PH-Training quite amused me. Maybe there stems many Hunters Lean towards the Big bores.

Lutz

/

quote:

Originally posted by ALF:

Of all the skulls I have seen and there are plenty cause just about every hunting camp down in "my Africa" has one or two somewhere on display, most of the shots traversing the skull that were not fatal actually missed the brain cavity completely

It is IMO not a lack of penetration or lack of "knock down power" or any other mystical entity that causes bad shots as most of the shots fully traverse the skull, it is the inability of the shooter to triangulate on the surface of the head where the brain lies.

Alf,

I am glad, You said this. I have never hunted an Elephant and those Elephants that were after me, just scared me away. No tight Ear, no down Head, no rolled Trunk business involved, just Communication.

From what I read about Big Game Hunting over the Years, I noticed some Folks missed their Target by a wide Margin. As rather big and heavy kicking rifles are involved, I assume from Flinching.

Only now I try to familiarize with the Elephant Head, and see the Difficulties to imagine the Inside. So I well understand an inexperienced Elephant hunter might miss the Brain from this lack of Imagination.

While in the good old colonial Days, some Folks got quite some Experience on the Elephant, namely the Ivory hunters, nowadays only a few of us have the Means to hunt multiple Elephants at their Leisure. Lucky they are. All other Elephant hunters nowadays probably hunt just one, to add this Experience to their Life. If I am correct, then most Elephants today are hunted by inexperienced hunters. I hate to read of the many Misses, as I feel any Creature we hunt, deserves better. There is no Excuse to harm an Animal without a valid Cause. From the many hunters I know, the Ballistics can be summarized in the Sentence “Take Big Guns for big Animals!â€. Ruarks “Use enough Gun!†is just that! No accurate Numbers, no true Differentiation, no esteemed Performance balanced against Flinch generating Recoil. Exactly from this Lack to know the Necessities, to avoid an Overkill, stems my Interest in the Mini-Max-Bullet: the smallest that will do the Job on the biggest Target to be anticipated (Save the Tuskers).

When I have enough Numbers to the Skulls properties, I will develop a Computer Model to predict the Penetration. Next of Course would be the Simulator. Then Verification had to follow. I suspect, but do not know yet, the Penetration demands of the Elephants Skull are often wildly exaggerated and I believe much smaller Bullets than common could safely and successfully be used. Exactly how small, I would like to find out.

I do not like Recoil and at least in Training I shoot better with less Recoil. Hunting is a different Story, as my Focus is not on the Rifle, but on the Game. That helps always. So to assure People smaller Guns will do the Job safely might help to get better Hits on the Target. Both the Elephant and the Hunter would benefit. That would be nice!

Lutz
p.s. This 9,3x64 with my Recoil brake generates only very mild Recoil, your teenaged Daughter could handle well:


Load data

Alf and LutzM.

Your question is the following:

quote:

The question that I have to all of this is: Is it all necessary when in fact we do know that we can, if adherent to the principles of correct bullet placement penetrate the brain cavity of the elephant with lesser calibers loaded with appropriate bullets.

With all due respect IMO the answer to this question has been known for at least 75 years and is reflected in the minimum caliber requirements of African Game Departments. To Wit, 9.3X62 or 375 H&H as minimum calibers. Recoil is such that any normal person can easily place their bullets accurately with a reasonable amount of practice. While you can penetrate the brain with lesser calibers such as the 7X57 or 308 Win the larger calibers have the advantage in knock down power and tissue damage on heart/lung shots. The exception to this statment is the frotal slightly quartering shot where the bullet must penetrate the tusk socket (alveolar proccesses of the incisive bones). That bone has been known to stop the 500 Nitro bullet.

The brain is not an easy target to hit. Anyone that has tried more than a few times will attest to that fact. Even Bell who was known for his accuracy admitted to losing 10 to 15% of the elephant he shot. Those with a lot of game culling experience miss less often than less experienced hunters but all miss the brain with some regularity. If you hit the brain the smaller calibers will work. The problems multiply dangerously when you miss the brain and may not have time for a follow up shot. With a smaller caliber the elephant will as Lou Hallamore stated "Ramp the horizon". A lost and wounded animal and one none of us wish to be responsible for. With the larger calibers 400 and above you are more likely to knock him down, turn him or change his mind about trying to kill you in a charge situation with a big heavy bullet. If you can place it as well than the bigger in caliber and heavier in weight the better. IMO we are spending too much time on trying to increse penetration for calibers that already have suffecient penetrtion and not enough time on how to increase knock down power.

465H&H

465H&H wrote:

quote:

IMO we are spending too much time on trying to increase penetration for calibers that already have sufficient penetration and not enough time on how to increase knock down power

465H&H,

You may well be right. Maybe current Bullets offer enough Penetration into the Elephant skull, except for the Tusk sockets (alveolar processes of the incisive bones) in a slightly quartering shot that would more than double the Task.

But what do You mean with “Knock down Power� How would You describe the Knock down function? How should that work? In a Skull You shoot frontally, where the Brain is behind and under hollow Air filled Cavities

- Nasal process of the Nasal bone, this is where the bridge of the nose or most forward muscles of the trunk attach. This bone also has a sinus system that communicates with the nasal passage through a number of canals
- The frontal bone : this houses the massive frontal air sinusses, like humans air cavities that communicate with the nasal passage
- Parietal bone it is fused with the embryonic interparietal bone
- Ethmoid with ethmoid air sinusses

and only the Crista galli of the ethmoid, this vertical bone plate extending up between the two cerebral hemispheres as a solid Bone plat, if I am right.

I such a Situation, a Bullet will first penetrate the Trunk. I assume that cannot kill an Elephant, but would just detune his Trumpet.

These Sinus combs may brake, but they are rather light, compared to Skull and Brain. So a bullet originated Crack probably will not shake the Head or Brain enough to over stimulate the Nerves, i.e. to “knock him downâ€.

If the Head was full filled with Liquid, the Situation would be different, as accelerated and pressured Material could propagate and transport kinetic Energy, able the tear and shear whatever is in it’s Way. No! The hollow Sinusses do not allow that Mechanism. As they are NOT liquid filled. This actually shelters the Elephant’s Brain from Shots near the Brain.

Maybe You or some other experienced Elephant hunter tells us, what the Elephants do with such multiple Cracks in a tubular Layout.

Lutz

LutzM,

I am not sure anyone has the answers to all the questions that you ask. When I speak of knock down power, I define it as the ability of a bullet that does not hit the brain to knock the elephant down and possibley out cold. This appears to be a function of bullet weight and caliber assuming a velocity of around 2,100 fps or more. Here the bigger the better. There are other facets such as the ability to stun, dizzy or disuade the elphents intent to continue a charge. Whether these are the same or not I don't know but may be a function of how close the bullet comes to the brain and/or how hard the bone is that the bullet hits. I'm theorizing here but I suspect that if the bullet hits a hard bone such as (as Alf labeled the squamus portion of the parieteal bone) the bone that has the ear canal opening to the skull or the hard palate shock waves are more likely to be transmitted directly to the brain than through the air or water filled bone such as the sinuses or the dome above the brain. The zygomatic portion of the frontal bone may also fall into the hard bone category.

The water or air filled bone does greatly lighten the skull but it may also serve another purpose and that is to protect the brain from traumatic shock. You are probably aware that big horn sheep have developed a similar air filled bone structure in the heads of rams. Since bighorns make some monumental head buts, scientists feel that this adaptation is to lesten the shock to the brain during mating ritual contests between rams. Several of us here have noticed that cow elephant commonly have liquid in the air spaces of the dome of the head while bull elephants do not. Since cows do not butt hrads like bulls during rutting behavior they have less need for shock prevention to their brains. This may also explain why in addition to size it is much easier to turn, stun or knock down a cow on a brain shot.

The general advice is to shoot low on a charging elephant rather than high. A high bullet will hit the air filled bone above the brain and have a lesser chance to knock it down than a low shot that hits the harder bone of the palate. Remember that the hard palate exrends back to the rear portion of the brain and the brain lies directly on top of it. So a blow to this bone can transmit shock dorectly to the bottom of the brain. Also a low shot may hit the neck vertebrae behind the skull which can also knock down or cause mobility problems for the elephant.

465H&H

quote:

The general advice is to shoot low on a charging elephant rather than high. A high bullet will hit the air filled bone above the brain and have a lesser chance to knock it down than a low shot that hits the harder bone of the palate. Remember that the hard palate extends back to the rear portion of the brain and the brain lies directly on top of it. So a blow to this bone can transmit shock directly to the bottom of the brain. Also a low shot may hit the neck vertebrae behind the skull which can also knock down or cause mobility problems for the elephant.

465H&H

465H&H,

Your above Advice makes Sense to me. Nerves react on Movement and Stress alike. In both Cases they the external “Knock†may over stimulate them, disturb Control.

Sure the solid Bone part around the Brain can lead a Bullets impact to the Brain and work as described, but a good Bullet would just penetrate through into the Brain, killing the Elephant anyway. So I cannot deduct any Advantage there.

But Your Explanation

quote:

… a low shot may hit the neck vertebrae behind the skull which can also knock down or cause mobility problems for the elephant.

is just great! A Neck shot is as good as Head shot, when You either hit the Vertebra or even better hit the Spine itself. Both Hits will remove Brain control to the Body. The Elephant will fall, the Lung will no longer breath and subsequently the Elephant will die.

In rare Cases, when You hit the Vertebrae just slightly, the Elephant may recover, stand up again and behave probably rather nasty. Some Guy once mentioned, “Mostly just the “dead†Animals bite You, stomp on You, or scratch You!†So I take Your good Advice well, knowing I increase my Chances for a well placed Shot, when I rather err to the low Side, but know about the Risk.

Boy, after all this scientific Discussion, I want to hunt the grey Monster!

Lutz

quote:

Sure the solid Bone part around the Brain can lead a Bullets impact to the Brain and work as described, but a good Bullet would just penetrate through into the Brain, killing the Elephant anyway. So I cannot deduct any Advantage there.

A good bullet can impact these hard bones and not be on a direct course to the brain. Theoreticaly it will still transmit shock to the brain, hopefully enough to stop, turn or knock down the elephant giving the hunter time for a follow up shot.

465H&H
465H&H

465 please see you private messages

ALf please see your private messages