quote:

Originally posted by LutzM:

Boy, after all this scientific Discussion, I want to hunt the grey Monster!

Lutz

Now you are talking!

What caliber would you take, if you could go today?

And which of your own bullets?

465, I thiink there is more to the FN than just increased penetration. They appear to make substantially larger wounds in the skull than a RN. At least they certainly did in my case. I shot three TCCI RN and three North Fork FN into my elephant. Three while standing and alive and three once she was down.

The RN bullet path was hard to tell apart from the rest of the boney skull. The FN were substantially larger than caliber and created alot more bone fragments.

Lutz, I might add, that this is also a good reason to shoot a .458 caliber or greater since the volume of wound in the body shots is substantially greater than with a .375 or 9.3mm.

At least, that is why I decided to make a 450 Dakota, and learn how to shoot it well, rather than use a .375 I had 25 years experience with.

Andy

Andy!

I have to admit that I have no experience with the TCCI or any of the FN solids on elephant as all that I have shot were taken with Woodleigh RN solids except for one that I took last year with a borrowed 458 Win. using a TB Sledgehammer solid.

I am prepared to believe you and 500 grains when you say you get more soft tissue damage from FN solids than with RN solids. I still remain to be convinced that that is the case on head shots either for depth of penetration or bone/tissue damage. In either case IMO Woodleigh RN solids have more than adequate penetration for any head shot that is needed. I took a large bodied bull last year and my first shot missed the brain by being about 3" high with a 500 grain 470 Woodleigh. We traced that bullet and the amount of bone damage I saw was at least the equal of what you showed in the pic of the cow head. I did not see the blood around the bullet hole that your picture seems to show. But I don't think bulls have water in the upper skull as cows have and that could be the reason. I'll look a little closer at bullet damage next week while I am in Zim.

465H&H

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:
Andy!
I'll look a little closer at bullet damage next week while I am in Zim.
465H&H

Well I am jealous!

Let us lknow what you find.

I would expect the .458 TB Sledghammer would have somewhat increased bone fragmetation compared to a RN as it is a RN-FN.

In the picture I posted of my cow (not bull as you point out), you can just barely see a small RN wound profile above and center to the brain which is outlined in blue.

I had expectd better of the TCCI as it is a really blunt (full diameter) RN. And remember, this was at 2550 fps and 9 paces!

I wonder if you are seeing better fragmentation, not just because you are shooting bulls but maybe your Woodleighs are also pitching and yawing compared to the 2,550 revloutions per second of my bullets?

Second scenario, maybe your .475 caliber does more damage than my .458!

Have a safe hunt and take lots of pictures of your elephant skull.

I still believe that shooting 3-5 of the same bullet into each elephant skull is the best way to get meaningful data. And then repeating that on body shots.

PS I paid $10 per bullet to skinners, and that seemed to help slow them down a little bit and let me take a look at things.

Andy

465H&H,

I have used both 500gr .458" Woodleigh solids, at 2135fpd and 450gr North Fork flat point solids at 2190fps - both loads shooting to regulation in my double rifle. The difference in perfromance is substantial. I agree that the Woodleighs, at the velocity I'm getting, are sufficient but the North Forks offer more performance in both wound cavity size in the skull - this my opinion based on observation, and penetration - this emperical data based on maybe ten measured comparative shots.

Beyond .458" to .458" penetration test, my PH got into the game and we did some test using his 470. For hunting he uses somewhat souped up loads with 500gr Woodleighs at 2250fps. My North Forks out penetrated his Woodleighs by about a 50% margin. IIRC we shot four of his loads into dead elephants and we averaged about 39" of penetration. My North Forks often fully penetrated or were lost after about 50"+ of penetration. FYI, his 500 Woodleighs at the 2250fps out penetrated my 500 Woodleighs at 2135fps by about 7" on average.

I do know that he made me promise to get him a box of the North Forks for his 470.

Before anyone craps on my data for being insufficient in sample to draw statistically or scientifically valid conclussions, yea well maybe, but the data was all one way, no overlap.

JPK

quote:

but the data was all one way, no overlap.

Statisticaly that is usually meaningful.

465H&H

Andy asked,

quote:

What caliber would you take, if you could go today?

And which of your own bullets?

Andy,

a very good Question. I would make myself a longer 9,3 FN for my 9,3x64. As I go not today to hunt the grey Monster, but visit his dead lengthwise sectioned Skull on Wednesday, I rather postpone the Answer after a close Look.

I cannot see any strong enough Mechanism, to stabilize a round nosed Bullet in Meat or Bone. The applied Spin stabilises just enough to keep the Nose forward in compressible Air, but no Way by a very wide Margin in incompressible Meat with 800 times the Density of Air, or even denser and harder Bone. You Combined Findings about low RN Penetration versus FN supports that well. See



Failed Round nose bullets, Picture: Kevin Robertson.

http://home.snafu.de/l.moeller/Englisch/Round-Nose-fail.html

Lutz

Lutz,

I notice that your linked article indicates round nose bullets fail (at least in part) because they tumble.

In an attempt to address this problem, I have advocated faster than normal twist rates. For example, in a .458 Lott, use a 1:10 instead of 1:14.

What is your view?

Most of the failed bullets in LutzM pictuure are the old Kynock RN solids with very thin skirts. We all know that they deform. Woodleighs seldom if ever show any deformation in the skirt area due to very thick jackets.

Most heavy caliber DG rifles have slow twists to stabilize short and heavy bullets. This slow twist may not stabilize the longer flat nosed monometals due to their added length. I fail to follow LutzM's thinking on using a longer bullet to increase stabilization. Am I confused here?

While the 9.3X64 is an excellent caliber it will come up short in stopping power when compared to heavier bullets of larger caliber.

465H&H

Hallo 500Grains,

You Idea is in principle right, but spin stabilization, good for Air, will fail in Meat or Bone, as the disturbing and random Forces may become much too large to able to be compensated by Spin alone. That I meant, when i wrote Spin stabilization misses the Requiremts in Meat or Bone by a wide Margin.

When You move from one Turn in 14 Inches to 1 in 10, You cannot compensate a Requirement that exceeds the Factor 800, as such the Densities between Air and Meat differ. Aggravating is, Meat is incompressible. So just forget Spin stabilization in Meat.

After a while Round nose Bullet tumble in Meat. If of soft and lead filled Construction, they will “fish-tail†squiring the soft Lead out and loose all needed Sectional density. If Solid, they will turn until the Mass center moves before the Stagnation pressure center, or move on sideways. This depends on the Shape.

Not too long solid flat nosed bullets with a wide enough Meplat (not like Hansen’s Superpenetrators with rather shrunk will shoulder stabilize in Meat. On a slightly tilted flat Meplat, the Stagnation point moves towards the front Shoulder. That creates a back driving Torque. So within Limits the Flat nosed Solid is a self stabilizing System. You notice this in Game, when FN’s outpenetrate RN’s by a wide.

To try to achieve the same with a RN via Spin from a Rifle is plain Futility.

Lutz

465,

Perhaps Lutz meant to say that he would make a heavier rather than a longer bullet? Second language you know.



Pictured, the skull used in Buzz' video.

Lutz,

Fackler shows the 6.5mm Carcano like that used to assasinate our late president John Kennedy, with a 160 grain FMJ-RN made by Winchester at 2,400 fps. The Carcano had either a 1-8 or a 1-7 1/2 inch gain twist rifling. It had exceptional penetration for a FMJ-RN, and did not destabilize in IWBA gelatin until near the very end of its wound tract. (Over one meter).

Like many military cartridges, it has more tiwst than needed to stabilize tracer and AP bullets which are less dense than conventional lead core FMJ-RN. This may held delay the point at which a FMJ-RN turns over 180 degrees and travels base forward.

My 450 Dakota fired a 1.45 inch long monometal RN at a rotational velocity of 2,550 revolutions per second (1-12 twist). All three of the head shots kept point forward.



One body shot that went through rear leg, probably turned over as you see here by large necrotic area in large intestine.



I tracked this bullet and lost it after it had passed, probably base forward, through the peritoneum and into the thorax.

By the way, elephant hunting is great fun!



Especially with your own bullet.

Andy

Lutz,

Norbert says that the reason FN solids penetrate deeper is because of the supercavitation bubble that they create, not because of shoulder stabilization. What do you think?

Hallo 500Grains,

Savchenko found a full Bubble around a solid Penetrator in Water down to 70 m/s, about the Velocity to exit through Skin. McPherson names 150 m/s for a Ball under the same Conditions. So definitely the Front shape makes a Difference, but not much. Bullets of 70 to 150 m/s cannot do much Harm. Not that I Would like to be hit by one, but here we talk about Elephant hunting. Now those have a substantial Skin.

I know Norbert’s reasoning about the wonderful Benefits of Supercavitation. While all that is known and true, Norbert seems to forget, when the Bubble brakes down, that this happens at low Speeds, and that at these low Speeds the main Penetration already has happened. So while Norbert it not wrong, in what he says, the Difference it makes is in my humble opinion utterly insignificant. The Difference could only come from wetting the Surface and then the Surface times Force times Friction coefficient would retard the Bullet, saving viscous Effects from the Guess. Lubricated Surfaces have Friction Coefficients around 0,01 and the relative Pressure is less than one Atmospheric. We take a 10 mm Copper bullet 40 mm long. With 8900 kg/m³ Density the Mass is ~ 28 g, Frontal Area Area is 7,85^-5 m².

150 m/s = 11,25 MPa Stagnation pressure = 883 N retardation force
70 m/s = 2,45 MPa Stagnation pressure = 192 N Retardation force
Surface is ~ 0,125 m² times 10^5 Pa max Pressure times 0,01 Friction coefficient = 1,25 N R. F.

Ok, we compare Effects over almost three Orders of Magnitude, or 703:1, so it`s fair to say the smaller effects are utterly insignificant.

Fackler Findings about the Carcano bullets acknowledged, one has the think about an instable Equilibrium. The instable Spinner may hold Direction in Space until some Disturbance destroys the Condition. Then the Bullet will tumble. Ballistic Gelatine is almost homogeneous. So it may well be, that for a Meter nothing happen. Unusual that is anyway. Live Game is not homogeneous as the artificial Pudding.

As Hunter on dangerous Game I would not like to gamble, whether my RN find evenly distributes Disturbances or not, when I know, I can safely rely on Shoulder Stabilization. I had Report about Norbert’s Super penetrators tumbling. This told me he overused the Concept, ending in a too small Meplat for the given Length and Mass.

My regular KJG kick their Hollow point off on Impact, and develop a nice Shoulder. They never loose Direction in Animals until the very late 10 Centimeters, when Shear forces outweigh the Stagnation pressure forces and the most Damage is already done. So when Theory an practical Experience fall together, I feel less and less Reasons to doubt.

RN leave many Reasons to doubt. The offer no indispensable Advantage, so why use them?

Lutz

LutZM

As I am packing to leave for safari in a few hours, I do not have time to repond to your question on the "Why" of RN bullets. I will do so when I return in three weeks.
CHEERS to all!

465H&H

Lutz,

Can you explain to a layman (me) in as non-technical terms as possible what shoulder stabilization is?

Andy

Field experience tells me that round nose solids tumble when their velocity has dropped to some level. But experience also tells me that flat nose solids weighing 10% less, of approximately equal length, fired from the same rifle, but at velocity 2.5% faster, do not tumble.

Comments?

JPK

/

Alf, going once...

please see pms again.

quote:

Can you explain to a layman (me) in as non-technical terms as possible what shoulder stabilization is?

Andy

Hallo Andy,

please read my 1999 Article for Lapua Hunt bullet selection. That contains an Explanation about Shoulder Stabilization, an Expression fist used by Beat P. Kneubuehl

Then I only started to think about Terminal Ballistics, as the Lead bullets I used then could not satisfy at all. The then proposed BGB was never built. Lapua had no Interest, which holds for anyone else I asked. So later I developed the Kupferjagdgeschoß. Our Game is not so large and the African Plains game neither. Meanwhile the KJg are pretty well understood and developed, but the Big Game bullet is not (at leas not for me). Since Ulrik with his bad Experience with some Woodleigh bullet on Elephant came to me to have his biggest Hammer built, the Question suddenly popped up again. How do I best build a Big game bullet?

Hallo Alf,

From Your last Post, one could draw the Conclusion, we see Matters differently, but I believe in the End, we do not. To differentiate Muscle with some Shear forces from a plain Fluid less them, sure is preciser, than just to omit that, as I did. Is that permissible? I believe so. Please go back to my last Post and read the Numbers about comparative Forces:

quote:

We take a 10 mm Copper bullet 40 mm long. With 8900 kg/m³ Density the Mass is ~ 28 g, Frontal Area Area is 7,85^-5 m².

150 m/s = 11,25 MPa Stagnation pressure = 883 N retardation force
70 m/s = 2,45 MPa Stagnation pressure = 192 N Retardation force
Surface is ~ 0,125 m² times 10^5 Pa max Pressure times 0,01 Friction coefficient = 1,25 N R. F.

Ok, we compare Effects over almost three Orders of Magnitude, or 703:1, so it`s fair to say the smaller effects are utterly insignificant.

Also please note, McPherson mostly dealt with short Handguns and the common slow Speeds there. Rifle Cartridges crank the Speed much further up, considering Stagnation pressure rises square to Velocity, up and hoopla the viscous Forces even more outweigh the Elastic ones. So the shortcut to handle Meat like a Fluid appeals even more.

Next, You write

quote:

A further extension of this relationship determines that the shape of the cavitator does not determine the dimensions of the cavity, but that the cavitation number, drag, cavity length and cavitator diamter are interrelated. (Reichardts laws)

Well, currently I actually am not too interested in the Cavity. Why? Well, as long as I know, the Flow wets the Bullet only in the Front, I first do not care about what the Flow does then. If the Flow contacts the Bullet not, I can omit the Flow, as he has no Influence on the Bullet. “The Bullet forgets not wetting Flow!†one could say.

Sure for the Wounding process and Destruction and such, we must revisit the Flow, and that is not an Easy Thing to handle. Here we have definitely to rake Care about Elasticity and ultimate Stretch:

If I recall right, Jusilla stated following Stretch Values

Swine heart 14,1 kp/cm²
Spleen 8,1 kp/cm²
Liver 4,6 kp/cm²
Skin ~ 20 MPa at 60 to 70 % Elongation (wonder why different Units, must check)

As Brain an Heart are in the Body middle, the latter halve of the Penetration is less relevant, than the first one, actually opening the needed Passage into the Brain. Speed lessens exponentially so why care about the End, when the Beginning decides the Game. Unlike Racing, with Hunting the Race is won, not in the End (Bullet exiting), but in the Middle (killing Brain or Heart). As repeatedly said, in the higher Velocity regions, the Stagnation forces outweigh the Shear Forces by Orders of Magnitude, so to omit them is practically valid. There is no Point to calculate 4 Digits, when the Target parameters randomly differ by 20 or 30%. I undergo this Exercise is not to gain scientific Gloria, but to build a performing Mini-Max-Bullet, that does the Job.

Third, while

quote:

the shape of the cavitator does not determine the dimensions of the cavity,

may be true, Your Question

quote:

Further this, why then bother with FN's ?

Is valid and needs an Answer. It`s already built in above. As the Flow only sees the Bullets Front, or Bow, together with the speedy Mass behind determines the Interaction between Bow and Flow. As earlier said in the Thread, Prandtl first described around 1920 how a steady Flow hit a Plane.



While the Cavity may not be “interested†in the Bow shape, as Reichardt suggests, the Flow and the Bullet definetly are, as there they have their only Interaction. They jam there with enormous Forces. Ever wondered, why McPherson measured different CD’s for different Shapes.

Maybe I make some CFD of the typical different Shapes pictures later on (need rather lengthy Calculations), to show You the Difference. Believe me there is. Since Meyer all Ship builders know. Of the non fragmenting Bullets, the Cylinder (to save the flat Plate) is the most disturbing Shape, next comes the elliptical Isobar shape (aka “Lenseâ€or Lentilâ€) and last the half Ball, or Round nose. The RN misses Shoulder stabilization completely and therefore is unacceptable. So while my biggest Hammer for Ulrik a little Butt on the Bow, that I placed there for decorative Purpose only, the Flat Nose is a must. The slight undersized Meplat first constituted a sturdy Construction underneath the Meplat, as Copper is not too hard, and second helps to shrink the Retardation forces by Area. The Shrink is only small, as I cannot omit Shoulder stabilization.

Hm, I actually outlined the full Design principles of a sound Big game Solid. Wonder who wil now build them.Usually that happens soon. In fact, except for the Beauty nipple, Physics dictate all the Rest. I am just the Slave, to obey the Laws.

Lutz
p.s.That old 1999 Article probably needs to be rewritten with actual Knowledge. So please be mellow in Your Judgement.

Quite interesting insights, thanks a lot.

/

Can anyone comment on the behavior of Lutz's solid compared to a regular FN solid, in terms of fluid dynamics? As a reminder, Lutz's bullet has a slight nipple on the bullet nose. I wonder what influence the nipple-nose will have (if any) compared to a regular flat nose.

For reference:

Hallo 500Grain,

I shipped some more 14,5 mm 48 and 52 g:







Ulrik expects to receive his new .577 T-REx Rifle in March to April and I am sure he will exercise.

Lutz

quote:

I wonder what influence the nipple-nose will have (if any) compared to a regular flat nose.

LutzM's response to this question from your first post on this thread...

quote:

The raised Center point, or Nipple, is just a Fashion, nothing serious, helps to memorize the Bullet (Your Notice just proved the Intent) and does not disturb the Function at all. Call it a Gadget, if You wish. A free Stream hitting a plane Surface yields hyperbolic Stream lines and ellipsoid Isobars.

Thanks Canuck, I did indeed read that. As there are others with a high level of understanding of ballistics here too, I was hoping that they might chime in about the fluid dynamics as well.

Lutz,

Are those bullets 750 gr and 800 gr respectively?

It would be interesting if Ulrik could do some ele penetration tests to see which penetrates deeper.

Yes indeed 500Grains,

we discussed several Options and I suggested the smaller, but Ulrik wanted the bigger, also with a slightly smaller Meplat. He really longed for Penetration.

Unfortunately i sent the wrong Drawing to Manufacturing. When the stuff arrived, he cried Wolf and i had to redo the Thing. We found an Agreement and i just sent him the long ones. H e now has plenty and he told me he will test them. Just how, has not been decided. Of Course the Decision is upon him, as he paid it all.

Tomorrow I measure the Elephant skull and can then maybe make a Suggestion about how.

As Ulrik hunts Elefants, i am sure he will fire a few on the Carcass(es). I just do not know his Plans.

Lutz

Hi 500 grs and also hi to you Lutz...

Yes I will have my new 577 Tyrannosaur in April. Of course a lot of testing waits ahead....
I have 3 bullets that I am longing to test on elephants - Lutz`s 750 and 800 grainers and Gerard Schultz`s 800 grs. The two 800 grs bullets look quite similar, but I don`t know yet as I haven`t received the 800 grs bullets from Lutz yet - the have just been shipped from Germany. So I cant`do any measuring right now.
What I am a bit qurious about is whether the (copper) bullets will expand (not intentioned).
I am certain to drive the 750 grainers to around 2500-2600 f/s and the 800 grainers to 2400-2500 f/s. That will be interesting. I remember your article Dan - where both the GS bullets (copper) and the Bridgers (brass) expanded when shot in ele`s. But seemingly without any bad influence on penetration.

By the way Dan I recently got some photos of the engraving work done on the action. Looks nice but I can`t manage to get them posted here - maybe you can help? My e-mail is ulrik.hentzer@gmail.com - if you will post them for me, then please send me your emailadress and I will send them to you.

By the way Dan. I shot a big rhino bull in May last year. Used my 416 Wby and a 410 grs GS FN bullet at 2700 f/s. Zipped right through him even though he was a 3 tonnes+ monster (biggest bodied rhino that the PH`s ever seen) and the truck loading him had severe difficulties because the crane only could take 3 tonnes on the "long arm"..

The bullet entry and exit wounds were very similar in size - I believe no expansion of the bullet took place and that was at 2700 f/s. The shot was a bit angled with entry a bit back on his left side and exit through his right shoulder. I can send you some photos if you like?

Hi Ulrik and Lutz,

It will be interesting to see how performance of the 750 and 800 gr bullets compares on elephant. I have found that I need to shoot quite a few shots into dead elephant to recover enough bullets to make any sort of conclusion. And the conclusion often is that I simply do not have enough data to draw a conclusion.

As for the velocities you mention, I am afraid I am not physically equipped to withstand that recoil, so you have my respect and admiration for pulling the trigger on those loads!

A 3 ton rhino is huge! If you will email pics of the rhino and the .577 I will be very happy to post them. An email is on its way.

Hi Dan and Ulrik,

from Deformator

i just post the big Rhino here



While i just got back from a Visit to some Relatives :



and got scared from some Monster:



(Who is he?)

I would like to ask a few Questions to the experienced Elephant hunters, that posted here.

Question one: What happens (does the Elephant), when You frontally hit the Head, but mis the Brain, as Andy shew in his Picture here:



Question two: How would You want to quantify a so called “Knock down Value†on Elephant.

Lutz
p.s. I visited the Skull, but to put Pictures in the Net will take some Time, as I am busy pursuing other Stuff in Time.

Hi Lutz,

You can also see the 3 rhino pics in the African hunting forum where I posted them, waiting for Ulrik's hunting story to go with the pics.

My experience in shooting an elephant, frontal brain, is only with the .500 NE. Each time except once, the elephant dropped. Once the ele did not drop. A fellow forumite JPK has frontal brained ele with a .458 and missed the brain and the elephant turned its charge. I saw an ele shot in the rear of the head with a .375 that missed the brain and the ele kept running.

A few months back there was a thread on this topic in the African hunting forum, and a search may bring it up for you.

For even more info on this topic you may want to view the DVD "Hunting the African Elephant" by Buzz Charlton. I think you can get it from http://www.rowlandward.com/product/0ee33514-a63e-499d-94da-86ee468dc3a5.aspx

Lutz,

My elephant turned around 180 degrees with the head shot that missed the brain on the first shot.

Then I shot her in left hip bone.

This spun her aorund facing me again. I again missed the brain and it almost knocked her over. the herd matriarch who acted like her mother, actually propped her up with her head or she would have fallen over.

I reloaded once and shot her in neck (spine) killing her. (Being very careful not to shoot her mother).

Every shot really "rocked her world."

I felt well armed with a high velocity .458 bolt action but will do alot better next time with a peep sight rather than 3 X scope, and one extra round in my magazine!

PS What are you doing hanging out with my relatives? That sure looks like my late uncle Earl.

Andy

Lutz, Dan, Alf, Gerard,

If penetration is what we are after, why not mill a 60 degree conical point onto our monolithic copper or brass elephant bullets like these 1980 era Arcanes from France?



Most of the APDS, APDS-FS, or tungsten penetrators designed by the US Ballistics Research Lab have used this simple, blunt, concical configuration. The 347 grain 30 caliber penetrator of the 0.50, or .223 caliber 55 grain penetrator of the 7.62mm SLAP comes to mind, and even the newest earth penetrator 2,000 - 4,000 pound and low yield nuclear bombs use this configuration.

I realize this is intended for a hard rather than visco-elastic target. But why not use it for elephant?

Back in the late 1970's to early '80's, I have shot 600 - 900 pound beef steers in the head with this bullet, and it produced a one inch diameter necrotic area around the wound. (1,500 fps 45 acp). Not bad for a .45 acp!



PS It would also perforate + 70 layers of Kevlar!

Andy

/

500 Grains, Andy and Alf,

Thank You for Your Information about Elephants Behaviour about brain missing Head shots. That active Behaviour should give second Thoughts to those who propose a "Knock down Value!" for Bullets

When You look with large high Resolution Pictures, inside the Skull, as You for a limited Time can do her from ftp://ftp.snafu.de/pub/transfer/Lutz/ here You notice the Elephants Head is mostly an inflated Balloon. The Walls are between 0,5 and 1 mm thick. While the sectioned Head was from a 45 Year old indian Lady, died in Hamburg February 1945 (why), an therefore probably about 2/3 the Size than an African Male, the Amount of Bone to penetrate is utterly small.

(Alf, where are You pictures? The Web ate them, or what?) Viewed from the Front, only the frontal Process of the Maxilla next to the incisive Bones, if I can recall them without Pictures right, is thin and therefore solid. That to penetrate lengthwise, would take 20 cm Bone penetration, but to shoot an elephant there, you probably must almost lie under him. I would shoot earlier though.

The Leg bones are also mostly hollow. The Femur had in the middle only about 2.5 cm Wall Thicknes, and that is the thickest solid You may find in an Elephant anywhere. The Joint is much larger, bit spongious. So on that one 5 cm would be the most Bone penetrate. Let`s scale up for the big African Bulls by 50 % and we are still no where near to rectify Usage of small Cannons, like the .577†T-Rex, or how many in a Row, would You like to shoot with one shot? I guess three in a Packed should be possible. My little 9,3 mm KJG got double Gnu in Packet already



When the Elephants had is such an inflated Balloon, the almost thick paper walled Cavities cannot transfer much Force to shake the Head. You just knock on the Door and be noticed, not more. Look on the Pictures, where You find thicker Bones: Nowhere on the Path from a frontal Brain shot into the Brain.

Andy,

conical Bullets, like those shown, would tumble, as they miss indispensable Shoulder stabilization. Cow Heads need no big Penetration and Bullet stability is of no Concern.

So have Fun to download the Pictures, which I put in the public Domain, including those from te Book, as the Copyright is over (Published 1925 in Copenhagen, Jena). We shall discuss them later on.

My interim Conclusion is, Shot Placement is Key to success, but not bullet size!

On Elephant more than on other Animals, as the Animal is so large, but the Target so small. Therefore solid biological Knowledge, that I hope the Pictures will help to enable, is more important than ever. Second the Rifle, the hunter uses, must be handled rather well, or say “be shootableâ€. I can see no Reason to over dimension the Gun. Otto Bock`s 1905 9,3x62 with the right Bullet should do just fine. It’s comfortably to shoot and a Pleasure to carry on long Hikes in the Sun under blue african Sky. I shall comment on a suitable Bullet later. Maybe I then will have to change my Mind.

Lutz

quote:

Thank You for Your Information about Elephants Behaviour about brain missing Head shots. That active Behaviour should give second Thoughts to those who propose a "Knock down Value!" for Bullets

Lutz,

Quite the opposite! While nothing will ever beat accurate shot placement, the perfect shot, emperically, is not going to occur every time. Then only bullet calibre and weight will save you or give you the time to make the better shot.

JPK

JPK wrote:

quote:

Then only bullet calibre and weight will save you or give you the time to make the better shot.

Hallo JPK,

now You owe me an Explanation about how, I assume, or would You disagree, as the rather light Elephant skull construction is unable to shake the Brain enough to "knock down" the grey Monster, because the Walls are too light, kannot take enough Force! Did You look at the Pictures in ftp://ftp.snafu.de/pub/transfer/Lutz/

Lutz

/

/