The .700RLG works in a Mcmillan repeater action and weighs 24 lbs. I've actually shot it with a scope and was pretty surprided at how well it worked. Two down in .700RLG is helacious power. No need for a 1:10 twist to get complete penetration on ANYTHING.-Rob

nmpyro- It is a Wickcliff and now is
2.6 lbs. A loaner that I'm using to
make schematics to scale up for big cases.
In picture I have a 12ga FH shoved in the
front. If scaled to take 4bore on down
it would be about 8 lbs. Tomo577 sells
these as kits and we think we can help
him and he is interested in making
a big model for a decent price. I
want to see how many are interested, as he
wants a commitment of 30-40.
Lot less than 400 at MRC. When
I get them drawed, he will take
the schematics to the machine shop and
caster to get an estimate of costs.Ed.

Mr. Hubel,
I can't commit to it yet, though I like the looks. I need to see how this one comes along before I know if I need to build another, differently. If I do I think I'll go with a 4 Bore build, but that decision has to wait til I finish and shoot my 700. My barrel oughtta be ready in a week or so, and State Arms gets it then. I'll keep you appraised.

As I stated in other thread we are going to
do first one scaled up with machining in
a machine shop.preliminary estmates on
molds and casting setup makes it to costly
to start that way. Glad your moving right along with our 700HE. I'll have load testing done for
1000 grainers in a few days.Ed

Testing 1000 grainers- Woodleigh and
Martin Potts. Both run same. Top so far
is 3200+ fps with 310 gr of H-335 ball
powder.Full compressed load.Here is pic
showing the 850 gr hollowpoint loaded laying down, a 1000gr loaded upright, two of
Martin's bullets, and 06 for comparison.
Damn shame Martin is in real bad health.
Nice convenient way to get these big slugs.
Copperhead custom will be ready soon to make them.Ed

Brass test today.850 gr big hole in
hollowpoint. It come apart.200gr Blue
dot. Chamber and screw breech fine, primer dimpled, case fine, resized ok.
Barrel is 2" od.And don't worry
about breech coming off as it will
hold 280,000 lbs of thrust. If the load
is a 100k load I think it is, thrust is 35k.
I have chamber relative to brass pretty good.
Case come out easy with moderate pry with
screwdriver.Case already fired 15 loads,
will have pic of it sectioned in
couple days.Ed.

Ed,
did you ever get montana to agree to a larger bolt? John and I where discussing the 700DA!!!

jeffe

Jeff- Still working on it.But we will keep trying.I sure know we need one now that
I'm testing 700. Those are great cases and
would be super in 3.25" version.That's one reason I working on scaling up the falling
block, to get another action source for reasonable costs.Ed

Got some nice mild loads for 700HE.
Good hunting speeds using RL-25.
250 gr, 1000gr bullet 2200 plus.
280 gr 2450 plus. Base of case ahead of
belt expands only .002, resizes easy.
Top load so far with 1000gr is 310 gr
of H335, 3200 plus. 63-65k psi load.
Expands base .004, resizes easy.. In
all the hot load testing no
measurable belt expansion. Pockets still
tight.Ed.

Got a nice plinking single base stick
powder load.Hodgdons Retumbo 250 gr
1000 gr at 1700, 280 gr gives 1900.
VV170 would be similiar. HBmg 1400 and
1650.Am building a hybrid falling block
to use in 4bore and my 700HE.It is discussed
other thread.Ed

Ed I have been trying to phone State Arms and they never answer there phone.........also tried to PM your self wanted to ask some questions but I can't seem to PM you ??

Email me- gunowner@journey.com
As for State Arms they are busy,
and just keep trying I guess.Ed

I left them a couple messages... it took a day or so, but he called me back. He said he had been busy and the tooling over-powers the ringing phone.

Got a couple blocks of aluminum to make first scale up models of falling block action.
Easier to machine than alloy steel for
the model and to figure out machining steps
in the right order and get the right
tooling and cutters.It's not hard to figure the
design need for big actions and cartridges,
just hard to machine and takes lot of time.Ed

Shot the one case 25 times.Half the loads
were real hairy. I got it to stretch a little
and will have pic of it sectoned in couple
days.. Now regular hunting load pressures will not cause stretching, like the max loads
I was doing. I got blocks for falling block
ready to drill and thread barrel hole.Ed

my disease (bigboreitis) is progressing nicely...near to terminal status with Ed's latest updates. What modest Ed does not say is that this aluminum prototype action he is building will translate more closely in terms of making the actual moulds than steel will (IIRC). Correct me Ed, if I am in error. For those of us who really need a 4 bore double rifle, but are about $82,500 shy of the $85K Tom Owens requires, a single shot action could be less than 90 days out. If you commit to one from Tomo577 you could have the barrel and suitable wood waiting when the actions are shipped. He is thinking in the $1200 range with a subscription of 40. Tom, correct me here if I am in error on cost.
We are working to acquire one reamer and talking with a company to provide a group buy on dies and shellholder. If we can agree on a suitable person to fit, chamber, and headspace barrels, we could afford to reant this person for a couple of days and do all 30-40 of them enmasse. That only leaves us as individuals to get our rifles stocked, while we are forming and FL sizing brass and casting or buying bullets.

I will make the offer to the group now:
Anyone who orders up on this deal can count on me to provide at least 50 cast, lubricated, and sized (if need
be) 4 bore bullets at my actual cost, plus shipping. We can also put together a group buy on proper moulds
at such time as the project is a go.

Even I cannot imagine this as an every weekend 20 rounds as a tin can ventilator, but how often can you afford to buy the "Ultimate" in any category.

Think about it...

Rich

Here is picture of case fired 25 times,
and you can see where it is thinning just
above the belt. Half of the loads were
high pressure loads. Regular 10,000 ft
lb loads wouldn't stretch cases at all.Ed

it is best to co-ordinate all action questions through ed.

mold costs to make the action, breechblock, and hammer are just prohibitive. for instance , to replace the mold for the hammer is $6,920.00

the current thinking is to go up in size in two stages using actions, blocks and hammers machined from the solid.

first size would be for the 700, 12 ga from hell and i think the 50 bmg.

second step up would go to 4 bore.

costs are entirely up in the air until prototype is finished. only then can we go out for quotes.

does anybody know a small machine shop with cnc equipment that might be interested in this project ? pass info on to ed.

Have found hammers that will work for scaling
up action to 12ga/700NE size. From
GunParts. At least for the models.
These hammers will pivot on same pin, in
the falling block like the original
Wickcliffe design. And should take heavier
spring to make stronger hammer fall.Ed

Just called Pac-Nor, they said ther're half way done... so I may be in for the falling block action. No promises but keep me up to date. If a deadline comes up I'll give my decision to you ASAP.

And of course for Jeff here is picture
of the 700H 3.25" on an Enfield bolt.
It has support guide that I put in left lug
groove.And a P-14 extractor on right side
recut for bigger. Case is 3.25", same belt
and base as long case, but rim is .770
instead of .790.......... I gonna do one
as I have 2 Enfields extra. Ream out front of
action to .820, and that still allows top
60% of lugs to seat.If you did it in 12ga there
would be less lugs making contact,
but still a good contact. And I will have huge bolt handle base as a lug and have
4th lug back underside of the bolt.
Straighten bolt handle like my other Enfields,
which makes them an inch longer. Will get
1 & 3/8 inch barrel 32" long.Will hold same pressures as Savage, like mild hunting
load of 1000gr at 2200 fps.ED

Ed,
does the extractor work, too

i happen to have a spare enfield, p17, but no 14 bolts... so, got one

shesh, i am going to need a reamer and about 30 cases... what reloading dies, ed...
i bet 30 cases will last a life time...


let's go ahead and chop it to 3.00 case, and call it the 700 DA.. and i'll make it a 2 shot repeater...

someone please please please stop me

jeffe

Jeff-It will handle 3.25 inch ok.Loaded length
of case in pic is 3.9". That is Martin's
1000 grainer in pic, Same for Woodleigh.
Bullets could be seated deeper, to give
3.75" oal. By changing sear setup and spring
and spring you can have repeater at
that length. If anybody wanting to
shorten them to 3" please have the die
specs set up to do the 3.25", then the dies will do both. My long dies will do anything
shorter, as I designed the 3.25" that way
so that I wouldn't have to ream mouth.
Mouth on long case is .735, mouth on 3.25"
case is .740, mouth on shorter would be
correspondingly bigger. The metal thicker
as case shortens. Keeps same taper so
long dies do shorrter cases keeping same bore.
I made my own dies. You want to use
06 bolt as ones I have here have bigger
diameter firing pin than the P14 bolt.
Bigger diameter best for big primers.
We faced off the bolt flat and shorten
about .015 on front to get proper firing pin
protrusion for bmg primers. Won't hurt
nothing. Extractor will work as in
picture it is holding the case. Use a P14
extractor and recut it deeper and
shorten its reach the same toward the
extractor groove. Gets a good bite
on case holding it against the guide we
put on opposite.
Cases will never wear out.Ed

When you face off the Enfield bolt,and
shorten the front that also allows the
thicker rim to fit under the recut extractor,
leaving enough metal on extractor front
to have proper strength and hold.
The old ejector won't work as bolt travel comes back to far, but you can put on one further
to the rear, by making one that is shorter.
Or make a plunger style like used in my
Ruger 77.While I am waiting for tools
for doing the falling block model I got the
Enfield almost done for 700H. Just need
to get a barrel coming.Ed.

Idaho Sharper,
I believe the $85,000 price for the 4 bore double is what Butch Searcy is charging. Ken Owen will make one for $75,000, which is still alot of money, but 10,000 cheaper is 10,000 cheaper.

For $75K I think you can find a vintage gun in that caliber.

Waiting for barrel. Pic shows Enfield
all reamed out and big 700H(the 3.25" case,
I use the "H" to label it differently than
long case). Case slides through front of
action fine.I calculate that all 4 lugs
will handle 45,000 lbs thrust. A 30,000
psi load in the 700H cases will have
9600 lbs thrust, 40,000 psi load 12,800
so margin is ok. 40k load will get you
way over 10,000 ft lbs.Ed

Ed,
thanks.. and that's SICK (to use the post-modern term)

i am thinking of sending you an action.. but leave mine with the dogleg,

jeffe

SICK...haha and I thought only skater kids at my high-school say that. :P

Jeff- I don't have license to work on others
guns yet. To ream it out I set up vertically
on mill table, ground it out with a stones to
.820, Anchored it to a couple right angle brackets on mill table and set the short
action tang into slot on table to keep it
from twisting. Made it .820 all way to rear bridge.That action in pic is one somebody
did a fancy job on shaping the rear bridge.
My others are just rounded and don't look as nice.I cut that bridge back for case length.
Bridge is .95" long.I like the long handle
as is easier to grab with my big fingers.Ed.

Here is picture of top part of the
first scale-up model, next to smaller
Wickliffe. It has 12GA FH round in feed
trough. It is aluminum just for a model.
It will handle 12GA FH, 700HE, 700NE, 600NE,
etc. Bottom of block is flat to set on
mill table to do the machining.Next machining
will be the hole and slot down through the
action for breech block and hammer to
slide up and down in.Its taken awhile to
get some tooling.I had none when we set up
vertical mill. Anyone with some surplus long
end mills and R8 tooling, holders,big drills
let me know. I need a bargain on some.Ed.

Edm
in order to make the stocked action more attractive, please don't use a "bottom" flush mounting for the butt, rather, bring it up higher. Part of the reason the original does not have as attractive stock patterning AND why you would bang the #@$@#$ out of your right fingers, is the geometery of the stock grip.

just a suggestion
jeffe

Yes it'll have a little straighter stock
mounting so handle recoil better.The finger
lever can be shaped and added to so it
fits tight to grip, ala Greener/martini
that some do, then you won't bang the
back of the fingers.Ed

ED

What will be the chamber wall thickness to the thread root diameter in the P14 action using the 3.25 case?

It is .155" which is more than my
12ga FH in Savage at .135". And I've been
up to 40,000+ psi with Savage.Ed

Tested the Wickcliffe with 12ga FH case
in a temperary chamber to see if
hammer with beefed up spring would fire
bmg primers.They fired ok. The original
action that we want to scale up is tall
enough to have the block clear the bottom
a 12ga rim when cases comes out of chamber.
So in the scale up we needto just add a
a little width ror the wider breech block.
And the bigger barrel thread.Ed

Pac-Nor just said they just mailed me my barrel... How far along is the Falling Block? I'm in the process of finding a good mesquite blank to whittle my stock out of, so I have a little time before I need the action. I'll go with State Arms if need be, but I love the idea of a COMPLETELY custom rifle, plus the falling block would be a little easier to reload, stock and just plain looks cool! Let me know a ball park figure - time & money wise.

nmpyro- The model scaleup will take a few
weeks and then Tom and I will find someone
hopefully to make them for him to sell.
Either machining parts or casting parts,
both,in our first checking is expensive.
And takes time to get processes set up.
We are sure it will cost more than State
Arms action.Yoo probably should get State
and get to shooting.Ed

Thanks, as much as I would like that falling block, you're right on the money... I REALLY want to get some rounds through this thing. Keep me up to date on the Wickliff (sp?)I'll probably drop you a line soon about reamer details. Thanks again

In working with scaling up action,I
have metel plates on work bench set
up with breech block, levers, pivots,links,
hammer, trigger mounted on pins to check
out the geometry and function.The original hammer with strong spring fires big primer,
but is way to hard to cock, no way to
clear firing pin,so pin is free from case
when block drops, so it won't bind,
or get bent. Reason is it is too short
and pivots in the middle of the breech
block under the firing pin, where for
easy cocking it should be behind
and taller, longer throw if possible.
With big case testing on original action,
to test feeding and clearances, I
scalloped the action out in the
back, it showed that hammer must be
lowered somehow so cases will clear coming
out of chamber. So that eliminates hammer
mounted in the back separate from breech
block. So as long as breech block has to be wider(action also), we will make it longer
front to back.It is shorter than most other
falling blocks. The extra length in back of
block will be slot for hammer, trigger,
springs, to ride up and down, with block.
Nef hammer, etc, works perfect and is longer.
with nice thumbspur to cock with.Cocks
with a third the effort even with doubled
springs and will fire big primers. And the
hammer is cammed to clear the firing pin
by the lever link with an extra short
piece of toggle linkage mounted with it
on pivot in breech block, in place of old
hammer.The toggle link pivots enough to do
that, when it unlocks, before breech
starts dropping. And the firing pin
rebound spring has no resistance to getting
pin back away from case and damage.
And the hole in action for breech
block to slide up & down in, being longer
as well as the width needed, makes machining
it 5 times easier. Some progress in making a
bigger and better action.Ed