The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Rifles Big Bores 9.3x62....days numbered?Go | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
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ice is slippery under preasure so frozen whale or elephant seal shit would be even slicker. but i think warm shit on a teflon greased pan would be the slickest. maybe this is a question for the mythbusters... 577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
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Just FYI, this thread was not supposed to be a discussion of cartridge popularity contests or whether the fancy rifle makers will build rifles in 375 Ruger (only 8 short months after its unveiling!!!). That is fluff as far as I am concerned. Only time will tell on those fronts, and all our conjecture here is meaningless. Many a great cartridge has died as a result of a lack of popularity....that could easily happen with the 375 Ruger....but that doesn't change the merits of its design and performance...which is all I intended this to be about. Some just seem to want to turn it into an argument by any angle possible, and can't seem to get past the "but I just don't like it" part of the thought process.  Cheers, Canuck | |||
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What makes a cartridge "classic" anyway? How old does it have to be to have "classic" status bestowed upon it, thereby making it eligible to be chambered when commisoning a custom rifle? Is a 300 Winchester Magnum considered "classic?" How about a 7mm Remington Magnum? Would a man born in 1935 have a different opinion on what contitues "classic" than a man born in 1968? Very confusing, this business of deeming "classic" on a cartridge. 375 Ruger- The NEW KING of the .375's!! | |||
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And possibly even more importantly, why would one judge a cartridge (or those that use them) by whether its classic or not? I know some carts are more "classy" than others, but how does that effect performance. Otherwise, its just "snob appeal"...which has its merits interms of re-sale value, etc, or maybe breaking a tie (all else being equal or nearly so, yadda yadda). Anthropomorphism, eh?  Cheers, Canuck PS: in BC I think a vehicle has to be 25 yo before you can get "classic" (ie collector) plates and insurance policies. So by extension, maybe only carts introduced before '82 are classic?? | |||
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Starting some Shrimp Etouffe while I'm reading this thread. The half pound of butter and three cups of finely minced white onions, bell pepper, and celery hearts is pretty slick I think. Yep.....it's slick and hot too! | |||
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Slicker than LDL on an artery wall! Cheers, Canuck | |||
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I know a good idea when I see it..I just raided the cooler fo rsome jumbo shrimp, chopped up som epeppers and onions and garlic, and got it ready to go home for dinner tonight! 375 Ruger- The NEW KING of the .375's!! | |||
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You work in a Grocery Store or Restaurant? | |||
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I'm still smarting from Ruger coming out with the 480 Ruger, not chambering their SA revolvers in the cartridge at all, not producing enough 480 Alaskans to go around, and then dropping the cartridge!!!!    So, after that debacle, I'll wait at least 5 years before even considering any cartridge from Ruger. Morons run that company, and the garbage they call pistol barrels wouldn't make it to qualify as boat anchors... I'm considering going to a 9.3 x 62. Love the round, but, it's not cheap around these parts. We'll see.... Dr. G | |||
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Ouch! Fair comment. Canuck | |||
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There are many different meanings of "classic", but the general U.S. definition is such: "classic" - at least 15 years old and having lasting significance or worth; enduring. "antique" - at least 25 years old. The 375H&H is both a "classic" as well as an "antique", the 375Ruger is neither. But, this does not negate the technical merits of the 375Ruger whatsoever. B.T.W., the 416 Remington an invention from 1988 is now a "classic" despite its rollercoaster popularity. GVA | |||
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This was your original question, which seems pretty open ended. I seems fair ball to answer on the basis of classiness, European mystique, hydrostatic shock, KO factor or whatever else captures your fancy. "....but that doesn't change the merits of its design and performance...which is all I intended this to be about." Here, you've narrowed the comparison to performance. Personally, I find performance harder to define than classic. "Classic" is easy. It's any cartridge that was designed and produced before I was born. So, perhaps you need to design a spreadsheet that lists the 375 Ruger and the 9.3x62 against a series of performance criteria, each appropriately weighted and totalled to a final score for each. Then we can once and for all answer this question. Yes, Canuck, I think this is what you need to do. Perhaps Gatehouse could help. Just make sure he uses his new chrony, not that old one that reads low. God, I need to get a life! | |||
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I run a couple of restaurant kitchens.... The shrimp was great, only used a ounce of butter, though, Had it with some new potatoes and green beans form the garden...MMMm
Cool, in 10 years the 300 WSM will b a "Classic" and we will then be allowed to order custom rifles chambered for it.  375 Ruger- The NEW KING of the .375's!! | |||
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Let us get the contributions as to what must go on to the list. Then in the final analysis we can vote if democracy means anything. (Don't be surprized if different countries vote differently if the poll is structured that way. Warrior | |||
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Cool, in 10 years the 300 WSM will b a "Classic" and we will then be allowed to order custom rifles chambered for it. [/QUOTE]Many things beside age determ when cartridges become classic or gets "classic status"... 1) famous people has used them.. 2) Famous gunmakers made them.. 3) Lots of history is written about them.. (legend) 4) They worked..(well proven) 5) They were pioneers... wethether the WSM`s or Rookers will become classics I doubt it...but that ofcouse doesn`t mean that they bad cartridges.. DRSS: HQ Scandinavia. Chapters in Sweden & Norway | |||
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My personal definition for a classic, when comes to age, is at least 50 years old. -Bob F. | |||
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And, of course, were developed before I was born...  | |||
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Hmmm..Lets look at this in regards to the WSM`s...... 1) famous people has used them.. All the well known gun writers these days have used the WSM`s to a certian extent- CHECK! 2) Famous gunmakers made them.. Winchester, Browning, Remington, Sako among others make or made the 300WSM. Winchester is probably the most famous fireamr manufacturer in North America- CHECK! 3) Lots of history is written about them..Legend Oh, there has been LOTS of Legend regarding the short mags! CHECK!! 4) They worked..(well proven) Everything that I have pointed a short mag at has died, wiht the exception of a ram, which I missed. Died about hte same as if I had shot them wiht a 300WM. I expect similar results form everyone else. -CHECK!! They were pioneers... We all know that short and fat cases have been around in one form or another for som etime, but it was production of factoryrifles and factory ammo that was short and fat was pioneering- CHECK!! Looks like the WSM`s are ALREADY `Classics`` And we are now allowed to commision custom rifles in those cartridges!!  375 Ruger- The NEW KING of the .375's!! | |||
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A Classic cartridge is one that gained prominence during the "classic" age of hunting, generally considered to be 1890-1950, give or take a couple of years. This concurs with the common theory that every cartridge that you could possibly need for hunting had already been invented by WWII. Therefore, no cartridge invented since then could ever gain "Classic" status, no matter how long it remains in use.  | |||
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That's a big affirmative Kurt! Classical periods in Art, Architecture, Design, etc. are static......you can't add to them.  | |||
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kurt...this brings up a good question based on those perameters. what was the last "classic" cart and when did it come out? some were popular wildcats and then adopted or stolen by manufacturers. at what point made them "classic" for example the 35 whelen was popular but was "legitimized" later. the whelen in the 400 and 35 are classics imho. then there are the variants...is the whelen ai a classic? are any a.i. carts? so what was the last of the mohicans of classics? what year did it come out? the 404 is deemed a classic but was proprietary for a looooong time. what about pre 1890 carts??? there are a few that are used today...are the "pc" pre classic? 577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
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Darn, I think that leaves out the 45-70, the 22 LR, 303 British, 45 Colt, 458 Winchester, the 338 Winchester, 7mm RM among others..But at least it includes the 7.62 x 39 and the 50 BMG!  375 Ruger- The NEW KING of the .375's!! | |||
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what was the "last classic cart" 577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
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If we use 1950 as the cut off, the 300 Weahterby, 222 Remington..Probably a couple of others. 300 Winchester isnt in there... 375 Ruger- The NEW KING of the .375's!! | |||
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the 358 win is considered a "classic woods cart" and came out in 1955. could the 308 be the last??? the 348 win in 1936 might be the last of the mohicans... 577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
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You aren't going to acutely define the period of classic cartridges/rifles/hunting. Too many vaiables. Personally, I start with advent of the smokeless 7x57, and end when the last production mauser sporter left Brno in 1955. (someone will point out that Mannlicher-Schoenauers were made until 1969, but by then the bloody things looked like Weatherby's) Whatever the exact dates, the key question is not when the cartridge was invented, but whether the cartridge achieved prominence during this period. As for blackpowder cartridges, they were still in widespread use well into the 1930's, and certain ones could certainly be considered classic. It would be interesting to give out 100 copies of COTW, telling each person to mark the cartridges they consider to be classic. Most responses would probably be very similar, even if the respondents could't give you an exact reason for their choices. | |||
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If you guys really want to be technical. There is not a single cartridge and or rifle currently made that is a "classic". Every single 9.3x62 and 375H&H cartridge or rifle you guys have that were manufactured post 1950 are nothing more than modern reproductions of a classic and are therefore "fakes". So if you can call your post 1950 H&H "fake" a classic, then I can call my modern 375Ruger a "classic" too. GVA | |||
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What makes the "classic" 375H&H an "antique"?? answer: The 375Ruger  GVA | |||
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GaryVA, are you off your meds again?  We are talking cartridges, not rifles, stay on task!! A true Classic has to be based on past performance, as well as current popularity (sales wise). If people in reasonable numbers were using it for at least fifty years...that's my cutoff. The topic is about Classic Hunting Cartridges mostly. I would classify the 25-06 or 22-250 as the last two classics, maybe the 35 Whelen; but it came out in response to perceived demand and is now moribund! Everybody wanted one, but hardly anyone wanted to pay for one. The 22-250 is THE definitive varmint round. The 25-06 seems to be the perfect Plains Game round up thru black bear/elk size. The 375H&H is the ultimate "git 'er done!!" rifle. From casual varmint shooting with cast or light weight jacketed bullets to taking down Elephants cleanly with one shot. JMHO, Rich DRSS | |||
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Gary My .375 H&H Winchester Model 70 is a "Classic". Its stamped as such right on its Stainless Steel Barrel, plainly visible just above the black synthetic stock.  | |||
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My 30-06 is stamped "classic stainless", so is my rifle classic or just the steel? I thought my 416 was a classic, but couldn't find the official "classic" stamp anywhere on it. Shucks, recon its just regular. later, GVA | |||
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The following is a quote from our friend Ganyana which appears is his article on "Stopping Power." While he is comparing the 9,3X62 to the .375 H&H, I think his comments would apply to the .375 Ruger as well: "I suspect that the reason many new hunters buy cannons is that they fail to realise just how easy it is to kill even the toughest game with a well-placed bullet. This would imply that the ‘ideal’ dangerous game rifle for a citizen hunter is either a .375 H&H or a 9.3 x 62. My personal choice is the 9.3 x 62. The 286 grain Woodleigh solids will exit on a buffalo from any angle including a Free State (Texas) heart shot. They will comfortably break the shoulder of an elephant and still reach the vitals and will exit on all head shots. The premium soft points available, particularly some excellent flat-pointed ones produced by Ken Stewart, are more than adequate for lion or an initial shot on buffalo. In short, the 9.3 will cleanly kill any animal, and do so with surprisingly mild recoil in an 8lb rifle." "In comparing the 9.3 to a .375 H&H, I’ve personally never noticed any difference where good quality solids are used, since bullets from both whistle straight through an elephant or buffalo making approximately the same sized hole. The only difference I can think of is that the .375 exits 200fps faster than the 9.3 and so has more energy to expand on the environment (and do so whilst producing more recoil and considerably more muzzle blast)." Like Ganyana, I think the 9,3 is a superb cartridge and have come to prefer it to my .375. Dave Dave DRSS Chapuis 9.3X74 Chapuis "Jungle" .375 FL Krieghoff 500/.416 NE Krieghoff 500 NE "Git as close as y can laddie an then git ten yards closer" "If the biggest, baddest animals on the planet are on the menu, and you'd rather pay a taxidermist than a mortician, consider the 500 NE as the last word in life insurance." Hornady Handbook of Cartridge Reloading (8th Edition). | |||
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Guess the only advantage to the 375 would be using soft points on dangerous game. But wait, you DON'T do that. Let's see. Now we have a short action, fat cartridge, that goes faster then a round that already goes plenty fast. 375 RUM, etc. Haven't we already done this story? What's the SAAMI spec on this cartridge? Another 60k, high recoil round? I want the reverse. I want a nice big case, like the 375, that gives me 5-6 rounds in my CZ, and, loaded to the original pressures, and velocity, like 40K and under 2500 fps. Sounds an awful lot like the 9.3 x 62, in a short version. I'm waiting to see if Ruger even chambers their entire line in the cartridge. The only advantage I can see to the Ruger round is for guys like Saeed, who can snap shoot a Dukier, quartering away, at full run, at 300 yards. However, most of us won't take a shot outside of 200 yards, and, the 9.3 is fine at that range. Besides, Saeed already has his own cartridge... Another answer to a problem that doesn't exist. Dr. G | |||
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It is interesting to note that the last hunting cartridges developed by the British were the .300 H&H in 1925 and .375 H&H in 1912. I guess they realized the redundancy of it all and have since devoted their efforts to bespoke rifles and such. As for Europe, I believe their cartridge developement reached a pinnacle in 1939, with the 8x68 and 6.5x68. Since then there have only been a few odd proprietary newcomers. Here in the US, every year someone comes out with something that is supposed to harvest animals even better than last years offerings. The last "classic" cartridge was probably the .257 Roberts, back in the '30s. Weatherby closed the coffin on the cartridge classic age in 1944, and Winchester nailed it shut in the '50s. I appreciate Ruger's efforts in designing the African and Alaskan rifles. If they chamber it in a 9.3 I will certainly buy one. | |||
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i guess the whelen a.i. is a d.g. cart then too  so the 375 hawk will be better since it will be legal where the 9,3 is not. also the ruger can be loaded down. 577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
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Ah, finally the voice of reason. Thank you. | |||
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Why would one compare a 9.3x62 to a 375 Ruger..The Ruger compares to the 375 H&H. The 9.3x62 should be compared to the 35 Whelen or the .338 IMO... I think the 375 Ruger is a go. It has a lot going for it, will it put the 9.3x62 or .375 out of business? No it will not, but it will be a welcome addition to a long line of fine cartridges. Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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maybe if we renamed the 35 whelen the 9x64 euroschnitzel and maybe it will get some respect. 577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
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Hey, hey, hey! The Euroschnitzel series of cartridges is very highly respected in all the right places. Harumph. analog_peninsula ----------------------- It takes character to withstand the rigors of indolence. | |||
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i guess the whelen a.i. is a d.g. cart then too so the 375 hawk will be better since it will be legal where the 9,3 is not. also the ruger can be loaded down.[/QUOTE] Boom Stick: I have had some experience with the Whelen. I have taken two good size elk with my Whelen using plain old 250 grain Speer bullets. Two bullets dispatched two elk. No bullets were recovered and one elk was shot facing me. The bullet traversed about 36 inches of elk before exiting out behind the ribs on the off side. Would it work on the biggest bear? You bet and the .350 Rigby Magnum and 400/.350 had a wonderful reputation in Africa in their day. In answer to your question, I would have to say that the old Whelen can indeed be a fine dangerous game cartrige. Dave Dave DRSS Chapuis 9.3X74 Chapuis "Jungle" .375 FL Krieghoff 500/.416 NE Krieghoff 500 NE "Git as close as y can laddie an then git ten yards closer" "If the biggest, baddest animals on the planet are on the menu, and you'd rather pay a taxidermist than a mortician, consider the 500 NE as the last word in life insurance." Hornady Handbook of Cartridge Reloading (8th Edition). | |||
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