Shootin' Alderella tomorrow.

The .416 Weatherby might be 8 grains of water bigger than the .416 Rigby,
and the .416 Weatherby might have about 0.239" of parallel-sided free-bore,
while the .416 Rigby has none,
but who cares!
Jackalopes welcome, for The Mission.

Rip ...

Here is a bit of trivia:

The .450 Barnes-Johnson Express and the .450 Barnes Supreme existed prior to the .458 Win.Mag. of 1956.
The .450 B-J Express is a 2.5"-cased cartridge, like an improved .458 Win.Mag. with a shoulder.
John J. Donnelly, who is mostly trustworthy, says this about making .450 BJE brass:
"MAKE FROM: .458 Win. Mag. Taper expand case neck to .475" diam. Square case mouth. F/L size in the B-J die, chamfer and fireform in the chamber."
Case capacities in grains of water, according to Donnelly:

.450 B-J Express: 99.04
.458 Win. Mag.: 93.29 ... I'll vouch for that!

I have a facsimile pamphlet:
"BARNES -- CUSTOM MADE BULLETS and Precision Built BIG GAME RIFLES"
It seems to date from 1958.
It describes the .450 B-J Express like this:
450 B-J Express
"The most powerful of the B-J Line. Shoots a 500-grain bullet at 2200 f.s. Works perfectly in any standard length action. Rifles chambered for this cartridge will also shoot the new .458 Winchester factory cartridge.
While this is a so-called improved version of the .458 Winchester we chambered rifles for the .450 B-J several years before Winchester added the .458 to their line."

So, Winchester engineers un-improved the .450 B-J Express to create the .458 Win.Mag.

Fred Barnes was making bullets way back when.
James Watts and Harvey Anderson got "custom bullets" made up for the .450 Watts Magnum in 1949-1950.
I think some of the Barnes Supreme line might date to the same period, 1949-1950,
but have not pinned that date down.
That might include the .450 Barnes Supreme, made from .375 H&H, with a shoulder and 2.830" case length.
Like a so-called improved .450 Watts Magnum.
Almost identical to the later .450 Ackley Magnum.
.450 Barnes Supreme: 113.01 grains H2O
.450 Ackley Magnum: 114.91 grains H2O
Ackley made his case 2.850" long and just big enough to clean up the .450 BS.

BJ-Express carts were short magnums.
Barnes Supreme carts were long magnums.
The throating on these would be interesting to know.
Did Winchester copy the leade-only "LAW" throat from the B-J Express, Barnes Supreme, or Watts Magnum?
Or did they just pull it out of their thinking cap?
We may never know who was the original genius,
unless some old original rifles can be checked for the evidence.

I will dig out my 1987 vintage .450 Barnes Supreme and check the throat,
to see if there is a long throat there, from a reamer almost forty years after original reamer,
which may tell nothing.
Will check Alderella while I am at it.

Rip ...

Heavy Douglas barrel, 0.860" diameter at 22" length with no brake,
24" barrel length including screw-off muzzle brake.
9.75 pounds dry/empty with receiver sight and bead.
Willis Fowler metal work 1987.
Kevin Jenkins stock work 2000: B&C Carbelite with pillars and crossbolts added.

Rip ...

The .450 Barnes Supreme has 0.380" of bullet free-travel from case mouth to lands, based on maximum brass length of 2.830".

Compare that to the 0.655" just now measured in Alderella,
chambered with a SAAMI .458 Win.Mag. reamer, for maximum brass length of 2.500".

It is looking like the Winchester Engineers are still the primary suspects for the genius that designed the LAW.

Rip ...

A big doughnut of lead came off the base of the slug as it got pounded into the muzzle with a plastic hammer.
Maybe next time I should use pure lead and not so fat a slug!
I think it was good, just required more elbow grease than usual.
It was equally tight all the way. No loose spots.

Rip ...

Very interesting! I'm fairly certain your 450 Barnes Supreme and The Spruce King were built by the same guy.
When I get back from church I'll look .
I must say , your 450 gives me a quickening of the pulse. Oh to be young again.

https://ibb.co/g7Ja7d
https://ibb.co/gat8Sd




Yup, same guy.

quote:

Originally posted by 416Tanzan:

quote:

So those that consider the Rigby to be a well balanced (powder capacity-bore) case while deriding the Weatherby as being over-capacity now have the opportunity to explain what to me seems an incongruous position.

The 416 Weatherby is a great cartridge, but everything is a tad more expensive than the 416Rigby. When handloaded to use the capacity they are ballistic twins.

So on the one hand, the handloaded 416Rigby is a great reach-out-and-touch-someone-hard cartridge. But it generates over 6000ft# recoil. On the other hand, I've heard that in one's 70's people tend to like lesser recoil. For that I would contemplate the 416Ruger (ballistic twin of the 416Remmie).

And I do not mean to take away from the 458. It is a great cartridge with modern powders and bullets. A little 416 talk just gives more color and perspective to the 458 campfire talk.

I will admit to a desire to own 1, 416 Rigby. A guy in my area built one on a Bauska action . It fits me like a custom fitted glove. It hasn't been shot very much at all. It's really not all that huge a rifle. Weighs around 9 lbs loaded with the express sights. Blued with fiberglass stock. I think it's an MPI Safari Magnum. McGowan barrel. I was very impressed with it's handling. I would really be over the top to get it if it was some cart more interesting, like a 475 A+M , 470 Ackley, 458 Win mag. 416 Remington or 404 Jeffrey ect. A 450 Watts or Barnes Supreme would just have me crosseyed. But, nothing wrong with the 416 Rigby.

Yes, I met him in 1987 and he was the start of my addiction.
First I had the bright idea of converting a Whitworth .375 H&H to .375 Weatherby Magnum.
I looked him up in the Hillside neighborhood of the Anchorage Bowl.

The basement of his home was a gunsmith shop, not unlike Harvey Anderson who built the first .450 Watts Magnum, eh?

I was so giddy when I picked up the rifle, I got a speeding ticket on the way home, coasting down the hill, unfamiliar with the area,
hit a school zone where a speed trap cop was waiting.
I was really careful coasting down that hill ever after.

He published a vanity book in 1994, and I got an autographed copy.



Rip ...

I was the first guy in the Sitka area that had a 40+ cal thumper made up on the then new stainless steel crf Ruger. The M77 Mk2 RSP model. I used a local Smith and he sent it off to Fowler. After that a bunch of guys had them made into 458 s and 416 Taylor's in the next year. So, I essentially thot up and had built what would become the Ruger Alaskan/Guide Gun.
My barrel measures 0.775 at the start of the brake . and the brake . And the brake is 0.957" diameter. Same staggered 2 hole design.

The .458 Win. Mag. really does make bloody big holes, just like Finn Aagaard said:



That was OCD Hell, stroking that barrel with Shooter's Choice, then Gun Blaster, then dry patching after each shot, for 30 shots.

It should get more accurate after the barrel is shortened and crowned.
Not bad for the rough end of a Shilen blank,
and a 2.5X Leupold Ultralight in OEM Ruger rings,
which stayed tight for 40 rounds.
Added 10 shots of factory loads after "break-in."

Rip ...

So, a 500-grainer with about 70.5 grains of BENCHMARK is a facsimile of the Hornady Superformance load,
and it might be pretty temperature insensitive,
good TBI.

I estimate the 500-grainer with such a fast powder might lose only about 10 fps per inch that the barrel is chopped, between 28" and 20".

I recently read about some ancient testing of the .425 Westley Richards and there was no loss,
maybe a little gain in MV in going from 32" barrel to 28" barrel with their .435-cal/410-grain bullet.

But it would take more than a 28"-barrel to turn the ugly duckling 425 WR into a swan.
A 32"barrel will not do it either.


Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:


A big doughnut of lead came off the base of the slug as it got pounded into the muzzle with a plastic hammer.
Maybe next time I should use pure lead and not so fat a slug!
I think it was good, just required more elbow grease than usual.
It was equally tight all the way. No loose spots.

Rip ...

A 475 slug may go easier. Or a round ball.

I have a bunch of .476-cal slugs, but they are Lyman#2.
Need to cast some soft lead ones.
The Hornady, swaged-lead .495-cal roundballs worked OK.
That is what slugged Chimera WinCzechster.
Not as pretty as Alderella Ruger's slug though.

Any .450 Barnes-Johnson Express owners out there?
That is the so-called improved .458 Win.Mag. that pre-dated the .458 Win.Mag. "by several years."

What P.O. Ackley said, circa 1962, about improving the .458 Win.Mag.:

"Several improved versions have appeared which are made by firing factory loads in the improved chamber. These versions make it possible to increase the velocity slightly but it is doubtful if more power is necessary until safaris are possible on Mars or some other planet."

Rip ...

That is some Very good shooting you did btw. 40 rounds of full power 458 Win mag in 1 range session.
How's your vision ?

It's cool you got to meet Mr Fowler. I got my first 458 in the winter of 86/87. A Sako barreled action.

CTF,

Remember I had a recovery period by barrel cleaning after each shot on the first 30 rounds.
Took about 4 hours to fire 40 shots.
10 minutes for the last 10 shots, without barrel cleaning.


Your first .458 Win.Mag. in '86/'87 was a Sako?
Well, Phil and I beat you on that, his "Ole Ugly" Whitworth in '84, my Ruger No.1 in '84.

And then you had the gumption to start the building of .458 Win.Mag. stainless M77 Mark IIs in SE Alaska, a most excellent idea.

And yes, very cool that Willis Fowler has come full circle here:
He built my first "re-chamber" job in 1987 then same year the "full custom" .450 Barnes Supreme and .416 Barnes Supreme,
right before the factory .416 Rem.Mag. became available.

So you inspired me to do a Ruger .458 Win.Mag. with your Spruce King that Willis Fowler built for you!
What year was that? I forgot. '92?
It's a small world, getting smaller all the time due to the internet!

The Knik Knocker, Alderella Ruger:



She is stout and functional, balances at the front edge of the receiver as shown, with the little scope and 4-ounce slip-on buttpad.
It is time to get her barrel bobbed, crowned and "African" sights added to the barrel.

Rip ...

The action screws stayed tight and the scope mounts too, for the equivalent of average load like a Hornady Superformance 500-grainer X 40 shots.
The 6.5-ounce Leupold 2.5X Ultralight does not stress the mounts much at all.
This rifle is as solid as it gets.



Rip ...

I cannot bear to shorten the barrel of Alderella past 25".
I just can't do it.
I figure she will perfectly balanced with 25" barrel length,
no addition of lead required.
Probably will lose no more than 25 fps on the loads posted above, for 2.5" shortening,
from 27.5" to 25".

The Hornady Superformance velocity of 2140 fps with their 500-grain DGS and DGX is probably spot on for a 26"-long test barrel at 77*F,
with barrel groove diameter somewhere between .458" and .459".

Yep, it is decided, 25" Medium Weight Varmint barrel for this varmint rifle.
And besides, 25" was the original barrel length in 1956,
and I do not want the iron-sight radius to suffer.

Rip ...

When I tramped out of Rowan Bay logging camp in October of 85. My destination was Sitka. I was 25 years old and there were a fair percentage of females in Sitka. After I had been there a bit . I got my first big bore rifle. A #1 in 45/70. I loaded for it and shot it for about a year . I had my mind on bigger and better tho. An ADF+G biologist there was a big bore aficionado. And had a Sako A V barreled action with a factory installed under barrel recoil lug. Brand new , never been fired. It had a 19" barrel. And he had a real pretty piece of walnut . I paid $600. For the clatter.
Carved a nice stock. Got in a hurry installing the action lug cross bolt and snapped the stock right in half. Got seriously DISGUSTED. And ordered an A-Square Hannible in 500 A-Sq. Which according to Art , was the first one in Alaska. And I ordered an MPI Whby style safari magnum fiberglass stock for the Sako. I had the 458 up and shooting just before the 500 arrived.

CTF,

Please remind us of when the Spruce King was born, delivered by the world-renowned gunsmith, Willis H. Fowler, Jr.

Regarding little velocity loss with the big bores on barrel shortening:

1) Cordite, IMR-3031, BENCHMARK, and even AA-2230 are all about the same relatively fast burn rate, and suffer little with shortening of barrel.

2) A large ratio of bore area to case capacity, like with the .458 Win.Mag., also mitigates against velocity loss with shortening of barrel.

3) Heavy bullets of moderate velocity also would be expected to not be so susceptible to MV loss with barrel shortening.

The .425 Westley Richards of 1909 with its .435-caliber bullet was the largest-bored magazine rifle to date when released.
Those magazine repeaters (M98) usually were made by the WR factory with 28" barrels.

The 1912 Westley Richards "catalogue" as Terry Wieland would spell it
included an excerpt from the writings of Henry Sharp.
Using the latest technology of 1910 (ballistic pendulum?)
Mr. Sharp "chronographed" and cut down somebody's rifle barrel from 32" to 18".
"Chronograph" or instrumental distance was 90 feet.
WR factory claimed 2350 fps with the .435-cal/410-gr bullet.
90-ft instrumental velocities as the barrel was cut:
32": 2318 fps average for seven shots
28": 2319 fps
24": 2260 fps
18": 2095 fps.

Going from 32" to 28" gained (+) 0.25 fps/inch of shortening,
from 28" to 24" lost (-) 14.75 fps/inch
from 24" to 18" lost (-) 27.50 fps/inch.

That is according to 1910 science and technology.
With the bigger bore ratio of the .458 Win.Mag.,
maybe shortening it from 27.5" to 25" will have less effect on a 500-grain bullet than would occur with the 410-grain bullet in the .425 WR?
The prediction would be about 37 fps loss for the .425 WR.
I am predicting about 25 fps loss for the .458 Win.Mag.
I doubt that the .458 Win.Mag. will give greater velocity when shortened from 27.5" to 25".

I will try for 84*F ambient temperature to try it again after shortening from 27.5" to 25",
using one of the loads chronographed yesterday.

Rip ...

25 fps is about what the .458/500-grain RNSP loses in first 10 yards of travel from the muzzle.
After that the rate of velocity loss is "not so much."

Men,

We are halfway through page 53.
Onward, The Mission!

Rip ...

I was shooting it by March of 95. Got the donor rifle. In late summer of 94. Once cutting got snowed out I was playing around with it and discovered it would feed 416 Taylor and 458 Winchester 100% perfect . Slow , fast, straight up and down , on its side , upside down. Even while being shaken. My next town trip , in November I left it with a gunsmith in Sitka to have it rebarreled and sights and under barrel lug installed. Got it back in Feb 95 iirc.

Thanks, CTF.

Could this be Willis H. Fowler, Jr., after all these years?

https://www.facebook.com/peopl...wler/100014343242082



"About Willis
1955-1959 us army. 1959-1961 gunsmith school, colo sch of trades. Worked as a
miner and machinist in colo.
Moved to Anchorage, Ak. 1969. Worked at Alaska Railroad as car inspector until l retired in 1987. I went into fulltime gunsmithing (after being part time for 29 years). I worked the gun shop for 20 years
and retired for the 2nd time. Moved back to colo. in 2007."

I don't do facebook, but it lets me go there and get far enough to copy and paste the above, from Googling ...
He must be about 80 years old.
Not quite as old as Atkinson.
Good ol' Willis ain't dead!
Gunsmithing must be good for longevity.
He was a great metalsmith, but said he was allergic to epoxy.

Rip ...

Could be , I never met him. I don't do Facebook Messanger so I can't really message him.

Sorry to see Willis Fowler is retired and on facebook!
Sometime after 2007 I tried to look him up in Anchorage and he was gone.
Figured he would die at the forge before closing his shop. But no, he moved back to CO.

For building the Spruce King alone, he deserves "CANNONIZATION" for .458 Win.Mag. Sainthood.
Noted.

As you were, for THE MISSION.

Henceforth I am abbreviating more. Instead of .458 Win.Mag., it is just ".458 Win."
My fingers are getting sore from typing "Mag." so many times.

It's an all-around "win" for the .458 Win.

Rip ...

Alderella Ruger, the Knik Knocker has gone back to the Spa for Wayward Rifles.
She is getting some minor procedures, mainly cosmetics and fashion acessories installed:
Nose job to shorten barrel to 25",
and she will also get threading of muzzle and crowning of muzzle. Sort of like a nose piercing for her.
She can wear either a tasteful thread protector, or a ridiculous muzzle brake that just screams "Guess what tribe I belong to!"

Rip ...

And a rear sight like this was paired with a simple 3/32" silver bead (Lyman 37FA) on the original Winchester M70 African .458 Win.,
1956-1963:




Rip ...

I was thinking about using those two sights as a matched pair, one on each barrel of a double rifle,
but now I guess I will go ahead and break up the pair, for The Mission!

Rip ...

That's going to be Really Great !!!
I really like that front sight. Banded with a good hood that shouldn't turn up missing.

Speaking of missing front sight hoods, anyone have a tip for keeping an M70 hood in place?

quote:

Originally posted by bcelliott:
Speaking of missing front sight hoods, anyone have a tip for keeping an M70 hood in place?

Pet peeve of mine too!
Those with just friction-fit-in groove: J-B Weld.
J-B Weld is the "Rifleman's Duct Tape."
Cleans up nicely while still soft, use Q-Tips wet with vinegar or Gun Scrubber/carburetor cleaner, attachment method will be invisible.
But it requires torching for removal after hardening.

I once had a ramp break in the middle through the single screw hole attachment, as I was drifting the bead with a punch.
Sumbuddy did not solder the ramp on installation!
I used J-B Weld to re-attach it.
The repair was truly invisible (except maybe to scanning electron microscope)
and still solid 20 years later.

Rip ...

But the hood better be windowed if permanently attached.
Not really satisfying if you can't remove the hood.
I suppose a screw lock on the side of the hood could be devised with precision tooling.

One of those at NECG has a neat locking device at rear of hood in midline, a recoil stop!
Universal Ramp, and Banded Universal, locking hood and adjustable bead height:
"The Universal Ramp features a unique design which provides .060" of elevation adjustment with each of the three bead heights. This all steel ramp attaches with a single 6-48 screw. The hood attaches from the rear and is secured with a screw lock. 5 ramp heights available. Bottom radius is made to fit a barrel .562" and can be contoured to fit larger barrels. Ramp comes with a blued finish. Ramp only. Sight inserts sold separately. Product #R-107 Pricing is $43.00 per item."



Push-button spring locks on the others, like the Masterpiece: Weak, no recoil stop ...



I have lost those to recoil. They slide forward to remove, just the direction that recoil makes them want to go,
when the spring-loaded button detent is overcome.



That fold-down hood on the "Classic Ramp" seems to be the best option.
Recoil forces will keep it folded down if you want it down.
Likewise, recoil forces will keep the night sight bead up if you want it up.
Going to "Condition One" is the recoil-default mode for that front sight setup, both hood and bead.
Seems functional and secure, will see.
And the 3/32" silver bead part is same bead as original "African" used with that "African" rear sight.

Rip ...

I never thot about JB Weld to keep the hood on.
I would like to find someone that would make a from a sight hood for the Ruger banded sight. It's a nice sight. But its easy for things to get bumped and broken.

quote:

Originally posted by Cold Trigger Finger:
I would like to find someone that would make a from a sight hood for the Ruger banded sight. It's a nice sight. But its easy for things to get bumped and broken.

Ditto, another pet peeve: No hood on Ruger's banded front sight.
NECG does supply Ruger replacement beads if you break one or want a different type.

Well, anyway, I am forsaking the square-notch rear and patridge front sight that Ross Seyfried espoused.

I am afraid I once filed down a Wisner African rear sight to flat-top, square notch.
Proud as Sponge Bob Square Pants, I was.



I'll get by with the shallow V and bead(s) on this .458 Win.

Rip ...