Brian Herne

Paul Grobler and Fred Duckworth were mentioned
on the first page of this thread.
I missed out on the first couple of pages initially,
so I will be reviewing and commenting on that,
just to further The Mission.
There is some true wisdom there, but a lot of "baloney" too.

Rip ...

Thanks to BaxterB:

Who is famous for use of the .458 Win.Mag. in hunting and control work,
and just how great were they?

Mike Lagrange
Harry Selby
Wally Johnson
Ron Thomson
Richard Harland
Finn Aagaard
Phil Shoemaker
Ian Gibson
Paul Grobler
Fred Duckworth
Brian Herne
Joe Coogan

Pending research on the dozen listed above,
sainthood is expected for all but the living.
They are still working on theirs.
Sure hope Phil doesn't get the big head himself,
except for bear skulls of course.


Rip ...

With a wife, daughter and new granddaughter, to say nothing of an accomplished son, my head stays pretty well deflated !
And climbing these mountains chasing bears keeps my physical ego in check as well.

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
Thanks to BaxterB:

Who is famous for use of the .458 Win.Mag. in hunting and control work,
and just how great were they?

Mike Lagrange
Harry Selby
Wally Johnson
Ron Thomson
Richard Harland
Finn Aagaard
Phil Shoemaker
Ian Gibson
Paul Grobler
Fred Duckworth
Brian Herne
Joe Coogan

Pending research on the dozen listed above,
sainthood is expected for all but the living.
They are still working on theirs.
Sure hope Phil doesn't get the big head himself,
except for bear skulls of course.


Rip ...

Shouldn't Harry Selby be at the top of a list for four-six-teenies? The entry of a 416 into his life may have been accidental but what he did with it is legendary. The path less chosen may reflect quality and versatility over marketing.

Every thread needs a conscience.

Yes, the 458WM is a great round, so is the 375 (whether H&H or recent Ruger). But for running around the African bush, especially without a PH backup, the 375's are on the light side of optimum, and it may be that the 458's are on the heavy side. Bottom line, of course, is having an accurate rifle that one can shoot well. The the real bottom line is having animals to shoot at.

416Tanzan,

If you are the "conscience" of this thread,
that makes you the little devil standing on
my left (sinister) shoulder, and you have
pitchforked the little angel right off my
right shoulder.

Next reply might be starting page 52.

Rip ...

I don't know the year break downs for Mr Selby's use of the 416 and 458. But, Maybe he wasn't quite as whole hog 416y as some might think
Iirc, The rifle He started with was a 450 3 1/4"
Which would mean , a good portion of his time was spent with a 458 caliber rifle.

quote:

Originally posted by Cold Trigger Finger:
I don't know the year break downs for Mr Selby's use of the 416 and 458. But, Maybe he wasn't quite as whole hog 416y as some might think
Iirc, The rifle He started with was a 450 3 1/4"
Which would mean , a good portion of his time was spent with a 458 caliber rifle.

No. He was 100% dedicated to the 416 once he acquired it, period.

RIP,

Here, conscience is a group thing. Just keeping us all on track, honest and appreciative of one another.


And while I haven't ruled out a 458 in the future, I am thinking that lighter recoil will lead . . . somewhere.

quote:

He was 100% dedicated to the 416 once he acquired it, period.

Sweet.

quote:

Originally posted by BaxterB:

quote:

Originally posted by Cold Trigger Finger:
I don't know the year break downs for Mr Selby's use of the 416 and 458. But, Maybe he wasn't quite as whole hog 416y as some might think
Iirc, The rifle He started with was a 450 3 1/4"
Which would mean , a good portion of his time was spent with a 458 caliber rifle.

No. He was 100% dedicated to the 416 once he acquired it, period.

You are spot on Harry said if he was a young man again he’d get a 416 and never look back.

quote:

Originally posted by BaxterB:

quote:

Originally posted by Cold Trigger Finger:
I don't know the year break downs for Mr Selby's use of the 416 and 458. But, Maybe he wasn't quite as whole hog 416y as some might think
Iirc, The rifle He started with was a 450 3 1/4"
Which would mean , a good portion of his time was spent with a 458 caliber rifle.

No. He was 100% dedicated to the 416 once he acquired it, period.

The End!

But the question remains.
Why didn't he ?

Why didn’t he what?

Get another 416 Rigby .

It may have been that the 416 Rigby was not truly available for Shelby to get another one. The one we know as his was made to work on a non magnum action that had been judicially opened up. So, truly suitable actions for the 416 were not really available.

Or it could have simply been he had one, it was great for him, and had no need for a second of the same.

I have a lot of firearms but only my 375 Rugers, 30/06s, 45acps, 22 rimfires, and 10 mms are duplicates. That is only because I wanted different platform types for those grand cartridges.

Without Shelby saying why it is impossible to know. We do know he said his 416 Rigby was fine.

Timing likely was the cause.

It was in the 1950's or 60's I can't remember which that the barrel went south on his Rigby. This was about the time that most of the British nitro express rounds became hard or impossible to get. The newer American cartridges were pretty much all there was, hence the 458 Winchester model 70 he used.

quote:

You are spot on Harry said if he was a young man again he’d get a 416 and never look back.

One can acquire wisdom with age, and a certain openness and flexibilty is needed. I think that Selby would approve of the 416 Ruger, too. And he certainly knows that the 458 and 375 work well.

He retired it because the barrel was shot out. That's when he went to the 458 Win mag.

I am back after a week in Florida. Gawd! I hate that place, but I have in-laws there.
It was tough to be on the road away from Alderella,
but as soon as Alberto quits raining on the rifle range I will start shooting with Alderella.

quote:

Originally posted by Cougarz:
Timing likely was the cause.

It was in the 1950's or 60's I can't remember which that the barrel went south on his Rigby. This was about the time that most of the British nitro express rounds became hard or impossible to get. The newer American cartridges were pretty much all there was, hence the 458 Winchester model 70 he used.

I think you are wrong there.
IIRC, it was in the early 1980s, after more than 30 years of use that Harry noted the .416 Rigby had gone south.
He used a .458 Win.Mag. M70 pushfeed for the 2 or 3 years it took to get the Rigby rebarreled and back in his hands,
delayed by paperwork and anti-hunting paperpushers until Paul Roberts pulled some strings
to get the rifle shipped through apartheid-era SA to Harry in Maun, Botswana.
But Harry found a home for the refurbished .416 Rigby before his retirement circa 2000.
By 1997 his client/friend Frank Lyons owned it and was shooting elephants with it.
I can only imagine Harry reverted to his .458 Win.Mag. after he sold the .416 Rigby.
The fact that he would accept a .458 win.Mag. as a substitute for his .416 Rigby says all that needs to be said.

In 1987 Harry carried his .416 Rigby on the John Wooters, Jack Carter, Paul Roberts ".416 Safari."

In a post here, relayed by BaxterB from Harry Selby himself, Harry said:

"I estimate that over a fifty five year career I have used 470s for four years and a .458 for maybe six to eight years.
The Rigby .416 was always my weapon of choice and if I was to start a hunting career all over again the first rifle I would acquire would be a Rigby .416."

470 NE double rifle early on, then .416 Rigby, then .458 Win.Mag. whenever he did not have his .416 Rigby in service.
The .458 Win.Mag. was good enough for Harry Selby,
but the .416 Rigby was his alter ego, no little thanks to Robert Ruark's writings.
By golly, Harry Selby was stuck with that .416 Rigby for life, pretty much.

Harry made do with turning the belts off of .378 Wby and .460 Wby brass when he could not get .416 Rigby ammo or brass.
That would be a closer match to the .450 Dakota brass, but better than nothing for the .416 Rigby,
serviceable with fire-forming.
By 1989, the factory ammo from Federal was available for the .416 Rigby,
and that was Harry's usual fare.

Rip ...

RIP - Your post is pretty much as it was. The country was not awash in guns either so it's not like there were .416s floating around everywhere. Another thing I will highlight from the letter I posted for Harry:

It was claimed by a few that after using the 458 he liked it so well, he didn't want to go back to his .416. To that, Harry said:

"The .458 did me well enough but to even suggest that I had become attached to it and sold the Rigby .416 as a result is laughable... it is like comparing chalk and cheese."

Chalk and cheese...chalk and cheese...

And also consider that although the 416 was in Kenya when Harry got it (its was ordered for Don Bousfield originally), when he sent it back for a rebarell, he was doing so from Bots. I would think that the 416 was far rarer there even more so than Kenya.

I always felt the 416 was outdated long ago, it was fine with cordite and the huge case and heavy action..the 404 was more to my taste but a bit of the same, Nostalgia has always been my guide...The 404 gained fame as a culling rifle in Rodesia as I recall..mostly in the cheaper Mausers...The .416 Rigby became famous out of nostalgia within recent years not back in the day.

The .458 Win became the darling of the middle class, affordable, available and the only whore in town made it famous..followed by the great .416 Remington and we will see what the 416 Ruger does, its not setting the world on fire when in fact it makes more since than anything on the market for DG IMO...The buying public has always been fickled.

Bottom line is they all worked and did their job equally well IMO, so its become a matter of choice, and the .458 is the big winner so far..

Biggest reason I never got a CZ550 in 416 Rigby is I don't like the slow twist they come in.
My last 416 Rem mag. Had a 1 in 10" twist and it worked great. The standard 1 in 14" twist works great also.
I'm just not much for slow twist rates. They would probably work great with cast bullets.

"Chalk and cheese."
There was a farm manager, nicknamed "Kaas" ("cheese" in Afrikaans), in the Tuli Block of Botswana in 2001, where I hunted before heading out to Maun and on to the Okavango.
He could track like a San bushman and was summoned to help the PH with tracking when needed,
when the trackers were bogging down on the trail.
Kaas tracked at a jog.
He had an identical twin brother back in RSA.
They say he was called "Kryt."
Kryt = chalk
Kaas = cheese.

Both kaas and kryt are useful.
If the .416 Rigby is the cheese to the chalk of the .458 Winchester Magnum, I'll settle for that.
.458 Kryt and .416 Kaas.


I looked for Harry Selby at the local watering hole in Maun, did not find him, nor PHC.
Wasn't that bar called "Harry's?"

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
I am back after a week in Florida. Gawd! I hate that place, but I have in-laws there.
It was tough to be on the road away from Alderella,
but as soon as Alberto quits raining on the rifle range I will start shooting with Alderella.

quote:

Originally posted by Cougarz:
Timing likely was the cause.

It was in the 1950's or 60's I can't remember which that the barrel went south on his Rigby. This was about the time that most of the British nitro express rounds became hard or impossible to get. The newer American cartridges were pretty much all there was, hence the 458 Winchester model 70 he used.

I think you are wrong there.
IIRC, it was in the early 1980s, after more than 30 years of use that Harry noted the .416 Rigby had gone south.
He used a .458 Win.Mag. M70 pushfeed for the 2 or 3 years it took to get the Rigby rebarreled and back in his hands,
delayed by paperwork and anti-hunting paperpushers until Paul Roberts pulled some strings
to get the rifle shipped through apartheid-era SA to Harry in Maun, Botswana.
But Harry found a home for the refurbished .416 Rigby before his retirement circa 2000.
By 1997 his client/friend Frank Lyons owned it and was shooting elephants with it.
I can only imagine Harry reverted to his .458 Win.Mag. after he sold the .416 Rigby.
The fact that he would accept a .458 win.Mag. as a substitute for his .416 Rigby says all that needs to be said.

In 1987 Harry carried his .416 Rigby on the John Wooters, Jack Carter, Paul Roberts ".416 Safari."

In a post here, relayed by BaxterB from Harry Selby himself, Harry said:

"I estimate that over a fifty five year career I have used 470s for four years and a .458 for maybe six to eight years.
The Rigby .416 was always my weapon of choice and if I was to start a hunting career all over again the first rifle I would acquire would be a Rigby .416."

Rip ...

Well RIP other than the dates which I said I wasn't sure of the rest was correct. But thanks for filling in the rest of the story.

quote:

Biggest reason I never got a CZ550 in 416 Rigby is I don't like the slow twist they come in.

CTF--I agree, even though I've owned several Rigbys. I shoot the 350 gn bullets at 2800fps, so twist is not an issue.
12" or 14" would be a better twist for .416".

quote:

Originally posted by BaxterB:
RIP - Your post is pretty much as it was. The country was not awash in guns either so it's not like there were .416s floating around everywhere. Another thing I will highlight from the letter I posted for Harry:

It was claimed by a few that after using the 458 he liked it so well, he didn't want to go back to his .416. To that, Harry said:

"The .458 did me well enough but to even suggest that I had become attached to it and sold the Rigby .416 as a result is laughable... it is like comparing chalk and cheese."

Chalk and cheese...chalk and cheese...

Ross is in good company by preferring the 416 over the 458.

Harry Selby versus Ross Seyfried
are like cheese and chalk in their
opinions on the .458 Win.Mag.

Even with his sextuple-handicapped,
SAAMI-compliant .458 Win.Mag.
Harry Selby found the
holes made by it quite bloody big and
deep enough.

Nowadays it is way better.
Better powders.
Better bullets.
Load it long-COL.
Load it to same, higher, pressure as the .458 Lott.
Don't cut the barrel so short.
Use a CRF/MF action, instead of a PF/TP action.

Rip ...

Will load 500-gr Hornady RNSP with Hodgdon Annual Manual data
for Benchmark Extreme.
In one powder burn rate chart:
#79: IMR-3031
#81: Hodgdon BENCHMARK
#84: Accurate Arms 2230
All good for classical bloody big holes.

.458 Winchester Magnum leade-only throat:
Long, Acute-angled, Wide-based.
LAW.
There is no other like it.
It lays down the LAW.
It is a LAW unto itself.

RIP ...

quote:

Ross is in good company by preferring the 416 over the 458.

Nice to include a second option on the 458 thread.
I keep speculating on the future. If a person decides to down step from 60 ft# recoil, would the 416 Ruger level be comfortable, or might someone go all the way down to . . .
375 Ruger

The 416 Ruger is a nice, comfortable shove, would say Harry.

One of the big reasons I stuck with the 458 but haven't had a 416 in years. Is the diameter of the expanded bullets. The difference between an expanded 400 gr 416 and an expanded 458 is quite a bit. An expanded 400 gr 458 X bullet is around .98" . bullet leaving the muzzle at 2400 ish fps
And penetration was more than enough . So much so that I never recovered one . From an animal at least.
Not saying the 416 is bad. Just not nearly as big a hole.
Lets face it, one of the biggest reasons for the 416s resurgence was reduced recoil . Flatter trajectory and reduced recoil. . Maybe with 500 gr bullets @ 2150 fps in the 458. But then the 458 penetrates deeper than the 416 /400 gr 2400 fps load.
With 400 gr bullets in the 458 . It isn't lacking in penetration by any significant amount compared to the 416. And ! It makes a bigger hole. And recoil is the same. Trajectory is not dramatically different. At least to 300 yards.

quote:

Originally posted by Cold Trigger Finger:
One of the big reasons I stuck with the 458 but haven't had a 416 in years. Is the diameter of the expanded bullets. The difference between an expanded 400 gr 416 and an expanded 458 is quite a bit. An expanded 400 gr 458 X bullet is around .98" . bullet leaving the muzzle at 2400 ish fps
And penetration was more than enough . So much so that I never recovered one . From an animal at least.
Not saying the 416 is bad. Just not nearly as big a hole.
Lets face it, one of the biggest reasons for the 416s resurgence was reduced recoil . Flatter trajectory and reduced recoil. . Maybe with 500 gr bullets @ 2150 fps in the 458. But then the 458 penetrates deeper than the 416 /400 gr 2400 fps load.
With 400 gr bullets in the 458 . It isn't lacking in penetration by any significant amount compared to the 416. And ! It makes a bigger hole. And recoil is the same. Trajectory is not dramatically different. At least to 300 yards.

Not my experience at all infact all of the recovered 458 X bullets are the same expanded diameter as the 416 X bullets that I have recovered.

I can't account for that. I've shot a lot of both calibers and their expanded diameter follows along with their caliber. 1.5-2 times caliber expansion.
The 400 gr X were always 2 times caliber.

I am aware that the expressed topic of this thread is the 458 Win Mag, but there have been several entries by fans of the 416, particularly the 416 Rigby. Also apparent is the disdain for anything Weatherby. However the large Weatherby case (378,416,460) is a virtual copy (with belt added) of the Rigby case. So those that consider the Rigby to be a well balanced (powder capacity-bore) case while deriding the Weatherby as being over-capacity now have the opportunity to explain what to me seems an incongruous position.

Just before the 416 Whby became a factory . I dreamed it up as a wildcat. Simple neck up of a 378 case. I went out and bought a bunch of 378 ammo.
Then it became a factory round and I lost interest. But, I did keep track of the 416 Whby rifles that guys I knew or knew of had. And how they preformed.
I couldn't find any improved killing ability or time of movement cessation on Brown bear over the 416 Remington or 458 Winchester. So, I was glad I hadn't dumped a bunch of money into a custom rifle with expensive brass.
Where it and a strong handloaded 416 Rigby pay for themselves. Is if someone NEEDS to put 4,000 ft lbs in an animal at 300-400 yards. AND CAN SHOOT THAT RIFLE WELL ENOUGH TO MAKE THE HIT COUNT.

I don't have that need any longer.

quote:

Where it and a strong handloaded 416 Rigby pay for themselves. Is if someone NEEDS to put 4,000 ft lbs in an animal at 300-400 yards. AND CAN SHOOT THAT RIFLE WELL ENOUGH TO MAKE THE HIT COUNT.

You rang?!

quote:

So those that consider the Rigby to be a well balanced (powder capacity-bore) case while deriding the Weatherby as being over-capacity now have the opportunity to explain what to me seems an incongruous position.

The 416 Weatherby is a great cartridge, but everything is a tad more expensive than the 416Rigby. When handloaded to use the capacity they are ballistic twins.

So on the one hand, the handloaded 416Rigby is a great reach-out-and-touch-someone-hard cartridge. But it generates over 6000ft# recoil. On the other hand, I've heard that in one's 70's people tend to like lesser recoil. For that I would contemplate the 416Ruger (ballistic twin of the 416Remmie).

And I do not mean to take away from the 458. It is a great cartridge with modern powders and bullets. A little 416 talk just gives more color and perspective to the 458 campfire talk.