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Lapua cases, Fed 215 primer and 92 grains of H-1000. The Sierra BC is good to go in my experience, boutique bullets with higher than normal BC claims were overly optimistic. Brain Lietz first BC claim for the Berger 300 grain was too high and latter adjusted down. _____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
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jwp475, Thanks for the poop on that load. I found one box of the.338/300-gr SMK on the shelf of Sportsman's Warehouse in KY. I like H1000. Also found the last set of 1" LOW Burris XtremeTac rings at Bud's, and Cabela's had neither. MidwayUSA is the usual resort.  Rip ... | |||
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Tied up with family health issues and bad weather for range. Will be back to my regular habits soon. Meantime, any denial of the .458 WIN or praise of the .458 Lott as superior to the .458 WIN would be quite amusing. For THE MISSION. Rip ... | |||
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H-1000 was the most consistent powder that I tried as fir as shot to shot uniformity. _____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
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_____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
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RIP, prayers sent for your family health problems. In the interests of the mission while RIP is engaged, has anyone used this belted magnum collet die when reloading his .458? Perhaps this has been discussed before, but I haven't seen it. http://larrywillis.com/ I also shoot .300 Win, and was curious if anyone saw the need for one of these. | |||
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bcelliott, Thank you very much for best wishes. My Irish Twin Brother and I are taking turns at babysitting. Things are going as well as can be expected. Also, buy a buy a donkey for supporting THE MISSION. Gotta stay on course for at least 458 pages. I have saved the link to the IT collet die for resizing all sorts of H&H-based cases above the belt. It could be a life lengthener for brass. I am going to get one and use it, for THE MISSION. Rip ... | |||
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I have located 3 of the older Weatherby DGR models at a local emporium. These are the ones built with the Wisner-supplied "African" rear sights. Chamberings and barrel lengths: .416 WbyMag 26" .375 H&H 26" .458 WIN 24"  Maybe the barrel marking on that last one could be altered to: .458 WINCHESTER MAGNUM LONGCOL And maybe with the drop floor plate of the DGR model it will hold 5 down plus one in the chamber. If there are feed lips on the magazine and push feeding from the centerline of the box, that might be quite reliable. Rip ... | |||
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The .458 Lott is truly a SCREW-UP of the most excellent .458 WIN. Lengthen the brass by 0.3" and then use it most commonly in actions only 0.2" longer.  Not to mention throating advantages of the .458 WIN ... Rip ... | |||
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I guess you've gone over this, RIP - but I've forgotten the answer and it would take me a month to go back and find it: Would there be there any sense in someone lengthening the throat of a Lott, or would that simply allow COLs too long to fit in the CZ magazines? | |||
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Une bonne question. +-+-+-+-+-+-+ "A well-rounded hunting battery might include: 500 AccRel Nyati, 416 Rigby or 416 Ruger, 375Ruger or 338WM, 308 or 270, 243, 223" -- Conserving creation, hunting the harvest. | |||
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sambarman338, The original CIP homologation of the .458 Lott was indeed for the 2.8" brass with same "H&H-Coned-Up" throat as on the SAAMI .458 WIN since 1956. The first .458 Lott rifles built by CZ had chambering like that. I owned one and I got rid of it, unfired, new in box, with Kevlar stock. I checked the throat by wooden dowel and dummy. From breech face to start of lands on that .458 Lott was 0.300" longer than on the CZ factory rifle chambered in .458 WIN. Although the CZ .458 Lott rifle was sent out from the factory in a more recent Kevlar stock, its barreled action was built during the time of the earliest CIP homologation of the .458 Lott (from 2000-August-24 to 2006-May-15). The current CIP homologation of the .458 Lott (2006-May-16 to present) is identical to the SAAMI standard specification: Short throat. Jack Lott's original .458 Lott was done on a SAAMI .458 WIN barrel with brass extended from 2.5" to 2.8". That is the ideal. The throat on that allows same COL as possible in the .458 WIN LongCOL, and no extra wobble room. The H&H-Coned-Up throat is wasted on a 3.8" box with 2.8" brass. The magazine box is the limit there. Example is the Barnes TSX .458/500-gr.  In a .458 WIN it can be loaded to 3.780" COL with 2.500" brass, using the 5th/last cannelure on the bullet. That produces bughole accuracy and 2250 fps MV with AA-2230 powder. 2342 fps MV is achieved by adding more AA-2230 but moves to about 1.42-MOA, 3-shot accuracy. With the .458 Lott and 2.800" brass, using the available cannelures on that bullet you have to go with 3.730" COL by using the 2nd cannelure of the bullet, to fit in the box. That might not fit in the tight throat of a current SAAMI/CIP .458 Lott, which I do not own. I do own one original Jack Lott specification .458 Lott, but it has a 3.6" magazine box length. You make one of those by using the current SAAMI/CIP .458 Lott reamer to re-chamber a .458 WIN, and stay off the belt! This leaves the same distance from breech face to start of rifling as in a .458 WIN. So, even with the ideal, original ".458 Lott Like Jack Built" you will have to shorten the brass a little to equal the 3.780" COL in a 3.8" magazine box, with the 500-gr TSX using existing cannelures on the TSX. Indeed, to make the 450- & 500-grain TSX bullets fit in the common 3.6" magazine box length for a .458 Lott, you have to trim the 2.800" brass. That is when bullets are seated as deeply as possible into the case mouth and crimped on the first or "front" cannelure. Barnes says: "... we recommend trimming the cases back to 2.760", so that these bullets can be loaded within the SAAMI spec C.O.A.L. of 3.600". If your magazine box will handle cartridges longer than 3.600", this step is not necessary." "Cartridge Overall Length" is three words. A pet peeve of mine is to see it abbreviated "COAL" instead of "COL."  Another thing about the .458 WIN LongCOL is that it works so well with AA-2230 for 400- to 500-grain bullets. Mucking with the case capacity by changing it to .458/.416 Ruger LongCOL or .458 Lott LongCOL might mean a search for another powder to work as well. Also, the fatter and/or longer cases then run into changes in magazine box capacity and mechanics of feeding. Drop floor plate and feed job may be required in some rifles, whether 3.4", 3.6", or 3.8" COL is chosen as your maximum COL. I do see it as worthwhile to have a .458 Lott Like Jack Built for a 3.6" COL, but 3.8" COL is better IMHO. The .458 WIN LongCOL will do all that is worth doing. Rip ... | |||
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 About that batch of older Weatherby DGR rifles: I went to the local emporium and examined the .458 WIN and .416 WbyMag rifles. The above picture is of neither. The .458 WIN would look like that but with shorter (24") and fatter barrel. The .416 WbyMag would look like that but with a muzzle brake or thread protector. The picture is probably of the .375 H&H or .375 WbyMag, early-model Weatherby MkV DGR. The .458 WIN indeed accepts only 3+1 for ammunition capacity, same as the .416 WbyMag. This happens because of the very thin and flat follower in the .416 WbyMag which uses a vertical-in-line stack, 3 down in the box, with feed lips at top of box shaped out of the sheet metal walls of the magazine box. The .458 WIN has a thick, staggered-stack follower at the bottom of the magazine on a flat spring. At the front of the magazine at top there are "feed fingers" directing the bullet noses into the center of the feed ramp. This is different than anything I have seen before. However, the magazine boxes are the same length on both .458 WIN and .416 WbyMag DGR. The .458 WIN MkV DGR has a fatter barrel on it than I have ever seen on any .460 Wby MkV. It would be OK on a .460 Wby with a screw-off muzzle brake and thread protector. Just too much of a good thing for a .458 WIN. I must say, I prefer the CZ 550 Magnum in .458 WIN over the Weatherby MkV DGR in .458 WIN which no longer tempts me. But I am sorely tempted by the early-model .416 WbyMag MkV DGR with the Wisner-supplied Winchester African rear sight. Rip ... | |||
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 Above is a CZ 550 Magnum .458 Winchester Magnum. Get one of those and drop it into a $250 Bell & Carlson Medalist-style stock. Glass bed it and reinforce the front of the magazine box so it won't dimple from recoil battering of bullet meplats. That is the easiest way to a rifle for the "wildcat" .458 WIN LongCOL capable of beating a SAAMI .458 Lott of any sort. It is a sixshooter. It will retain 6 tightly in the box and chamber the top round when the bolt is closed. You can close the bolt over a comfortably-loose 5 in box. No "Mauser Pinch" of the extractor required to feed that 6th round into the chamber. With a 0.1"-extra drop floor plate (Wisner-supplied) it becomes a 6+1 sevenshooter. Of course, this rifle could be re-chambered to produce a .458 Lott Like Jack Built, but the only good reason for that is to be able to do more with lighter, shorter bullets. However, do you really need the 350-grain TSX to go faster than 2800 fps? 2800 fps with 350-grain TSX is at an accuracy node for Bobbarrella using H4198/WLRM/3.440"COL in a 25" Shilen barrel, with a muzzle brake. In a .458 Lott Like Jack Built you could go to 3.740" COL with that bullet. WARNING: Might need a different/slower powder than H4198 for that load! And, it might be tough to beat the accuracy and velocity of that bullet at 3.440" COL in the .458 WIN LongCOL, which is fast enough for me, without a muzzle brake. Rip ... | |||
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For THE MISSION: One more thing before I go back to babysitting at the hospital. I think a 1:10" twist barrel on a Winchester M70 Classic in a Bell & Carlson Medalist stock needs to be tried. Magazine box length of 3.6". It could be as light as No. 4 Sporter, and as short as 24" without a muzzle brake. Adding the muzzle brake from Bobbarrella would make it 25-5/8" from breech face to end of muzzle brake. Why? Just to be able to make best use of all the off-the-shelf VLD subsonic bullets from Lehigh Defense, and maybe some supersonic application of same bullets and custom bullets. Rip ... | |||
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Thanks RIP, if it wasn't explained in the rest of that post (and went over my head), what made you sell on that rifle without firing it? Though, as with the standard 458WM chamber, the throat was longer than could be utilised with some magazine boxes, did it occur to you to single load one longer cartridge, as I think you've mooted with the Win mag and short actions? | |||
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Dam,n, all this talk about the 458 stirred me up. I just found a Steyr Model S in 458 for a great price. On its way! :-) | |||
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Good lord man! Looking at a Steyer Model S, it's barely a step up from the ultimate ugly rifle, Blaser! What attracts you to these ugly duckings Bieber man?! I think you would have been the guy to hang around with back in the single, bar hopping days as I'm pretty sure you would have been the wingman always willing to cut the cripple out of the herd of good looking gals for the benefit of your buds!   | |||
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 Jolly good show Biebs. Buy a donkey! Above is the Steyr Classic II .458 WIN. At 7.9 pounds and 23.6" (600mm), not counting the muzzlebrake, not bad for a Euro-Rifle. The .458 WIN Clan embraces even the metrosexual pushfeed if you like it. I almost bought a Weatherby DGR .458 WIN, but that thing was obese compared to the spritely Steyr. You will appreciate the muzzle brake. Thanks to Todd too, For THE MISSION. Rip ... | |||
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Just not my cup of tea. It does point out the ridiculousness of the .458 Express (3"), which no doubt has a very short throat, judging by its dismal ballistics. That .458 Express 3-Inch could be easily topped by a .458 Lott with H&H-Coned-Up throat like on the SAAMI .458 WIN. For LongCOL benefits, you would have to use it single-shot-style in the CZ 550 Magnum, Ruger No.1, or maybe that MRC M1999 PH with +4.0" box length, custom set-up for H&H head. And besides, I had Bobbarrella in the works. Why try to show her up with a 4.080" COL single-shooter? COL of 3.780" works through her box with 500-grain TSX at +2300 fps. I traded the Obsolete-CIP .458 Lott in on an MRC M1999 X2 stainless .26 Nosler that was marked "26 NOLSER" on the barrel. Now that is a real collector's item. And it could easily be re-barreled to .458 WIN LongCOL. For THE MISSION, thanks. Rip ... | |||
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If I loved ugly, you'd be my best friend :-) | |||
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Hey, does that Steyr S have a rotary magazine? Indeed the old M-S rifles in .458 WIN did. I'd love to have one of those. Someone's Euro-Wife shoots her new Steyr S 7mmRemMag: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tuh_0Fy4UMQ Good thing it was not a .458 WIN. Rip ... | |||
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A store-bought Mini-Double-Seyfried-Schtick 2-Piece Picatinny on an M70 Classic .416 RemMag, ripe for re-barreling to .458 WIN LongCOL with fast twist barrel:  With a 24" No.4 sporter barrel and a 2-pound B&C stock, it will be lighter than Biebs' Steyr S .458 WIN. I better get a muzzle brake on that one too. Rip ... | |||
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The other candidate for a .458 WIN LongCOL is the MRC X2 26 NOLSER which just needs magazine unblocked, may not need any other work on ejector/boltstop, but maybe a longer follower is needed:     Above, MRC X2 26 NOLSER is compared to Pre-'64 M70 .300 H&H action (now a .395 H&H) which is an opened-up .30-06. OOPS! Zebra rug needs its dandruff vacuumed. I could have made four separate posts with 4 separate pictures, for THE MISSION. Oh well, no need to get to 458 pages and beyond too quickly. Rip ... | |||
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RIP, yes, it's a rotary magazine...4 in and one in the chamber. | |||
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I wonder if they're divorced yet? Fancy letting her fire it without earplugs! | |||
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sambarman338, I noticed she grabbed at her ear after the shot. Her goober husband must have been disappointed by no Weatherby eyebrow.  Rip ... | |||
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Don't you mean 4+1 for .30-06 3+1 for .375 H&H or .458 WIN 2+1 for .300 WSM That is what the internet says. Rip ... | |||
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Not sure...I haven't loaded it up. I was told 4 + 1, but then again, I may be incorrect, cuz the internet is never wrong :-) | |||
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Here's 1 more   | |||
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tsturm, Thanks for supporting THE MISSION. I shall endeavor to persevere unabated, just been slowed down a bit by a family member's health issues. Never the less, a new term has been coined to describe those who think the .458 WIN should be limited to lower than .458 Lott COL and lower than .458 Lott pressure. They are "Fuddites." The fuddy-duddy Luddites of the .458 Winchester Magnum shooters, named after Elmer Fudd. We welcome them in the spirit of tolerance and diversity. When we get to 459 pages, another thread will be started, entitled "The .459 WIN." That could be a new designation for the "wildcatted" .458 Winchester Magnum, same chamber, same brass as SAAMI, except maximum brass is 2.510" with minimum of 2.500". Also, maximum COL is 3.780" (not 3.340") and service MAP is 62,500 psi (not 60,000 psi). The SAAMI .458 Winchester Magnum has a chamber length that is 0.020" longer than the maximum brass length. The SAAMI .458 Lott has a chamber length that is only 0.010" longer than maximum brass length. 2.500" to 2.510" brass would work in the SAAMI .458 WIN chamber, just as safely as 2.790" to 2.800" brass works in the .458 Lott chamber. So let the .458 WIN brass grow and aim to keep the trim at 2.500" minimum. That will work for .458 WIN SAAMI-COL just as well as for .458 WIN LongCOL. Someday, maybe, a new SAAMI "homologation" for the .459 WIN and brass of proper headstamp: ".459 Winchester Increased Nitro": .459 WIN Not ".459 Winchester Improved Nitro Express": .459 WINE  Or maybe yes to .459 WINE.  Rip ... | |||
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Good Lord RIP!! Don't forget your Watcher of the Mission!  Is Satan himself guiding your hand? How in Hell can perfection be perfected? Even that sin alone is a good reason to burn for all eternity!  Your sole idea is just too disturbing showing indeed a too feverish state of mind. I hope this is just a moment of weakness that will be over soon! I also have confidence in the recovery of your senses soon enough to retake the way of the Almighty before THE MISSION derails into the abyss of the Lott !  ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ColdBore 1.0 - the ballistics/reloading software solution http://www.patagoniaballistics.com | |||
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Gustavo, Right. I am quitting the WINE. Pure and simple aqua vita from here out. .458 WIN: .458 Winchester Incontestable Nitro +5000 foot-pounds from a 20" barrel with SAAMI loads. +6000 foot-pounds from a 25" barrel with LongCOL loads. Thanks for ringing THE MISSION bell. Rip ... | |||
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The Almighty works in mysterious ways and I'm glad to see that your senses are back so the Watcher is back, aleluya!! Long live THE WATCHER OF THE MISSION! ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ColdBore 1.0 - the ballistics/reloading software solution http://www.patagoniaballistics.com | |||
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By the time I got around to checking on this  at http://larrywillis.com/ it was out of stock. Must be what happened last time I forgot about it. I have never had any of the problems with H&H-belted brass that the collett resizer is supposed to prevent. But I might, by the time I get one of those collet sizer dies. Rip ... | |||
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The .458 Winchester Magnum Pre-'64 M70 African is the Dangerous Game Rifle that set the standard by which all others are compared. Weatherby could do no better than to mimic the appearance with that "African" rear sight on their Mark V DGR. Jim Wisner made those sights for Weatherby. I can verify that a rifle produced in late 2015 that might be called the 2016 model had that sight, here on a .416 Weatherby Magnum:  I believe that might have been the last model year of the Weatherby DGR to use the Wisner copy of the African rear sight. They are lately using an "express" rear sight of lesser quality. So sad.  The front sight is now a ramp with no band. The 2015-2016 model has barrel-band front which is windage adjustable by drifting the front bead in a dovetail, with a push-button lock on the hood, big gold bead. The old African rear sight is elevation-adjustable only. Also sad is my lack of a Double-Seyfried-Schtick 2-piece Picatinny setup for the MkV DGR. I am working on a replacement for that Talley trash. Maybe I should just shoot it with the Talley's until they fall apart ... Rip ... | |||
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Some people have weak stomachs or a different kind of brain chemistry. They ad nauseum way too easily, puke at the drop of a hat. They are probably also the ones who find smoking pot to be pleasurable, and opioids make them warm and fuzzy. Other people never get queasy or puke unless they are near death. Pot is very unpleasant for them, as are opioids. I am certainly in the latter type of brain chemistry. So, onward with THE MISSION! Here is another article about early use of the .458 WIN, circa 1957 action published in the 1959 GUN DIGEST. It is a follow-on to the 1959 GUNS magazine article by Askins which previously has supported THE MISSION. All of the older GUN DIGEST volumes are available on CD, very affordable, for those that don't own all the paper volumes. For anyone wanting to search them it is a great resource. Excerpt below is for book review purposes. Book Review: GUN DIGEST is great!  | |||
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