quote:

Originally posted by jerry mcdonald:
... With all that said, I could just re-name the big rifle .338 TRUMP 4.0 inch! I would heartily suppose .338 cal, 300 grains and 3000 fps would indeed make a correct 338 TRUMP, No? ; ]

Big thumbsup on that, Jerry.



("Boddington Pose" of a normal thumb turns it into a "trophy thumb.")

.458 TRUMP
Truly Realized Ultimate Magnum Perfection
.458 Winchester Magnum Perfection
Nota bene: In maxima potentia parvum spatium.
Id venit et vicit omnis.

I scored the last pound of CFE-223 at the local emporium today,
by looking over every container they had on the shelves and rummaging through boxes until I found the last one-pounder, hiding out of place:

Some relative burn rates from faster to slower:

100) H-4198

104) AA-2015BR

106) Alliant Power Pro 1200-R

112) Hodgdon Benchmark
113) Hodgdon H-335

115) AA-2230
116) AA-2460

119) Hodgdon H-4895

125) Alliant Power Pro VARMINT
125) AA-2495

135) Hodgdon VARGET

137) Winchester 748
138) Hodgdon BL-C(2)
139) Alliant Reloder 16
140) Hodgdon CFE 223

https://loaddata.com/Article/B...n-Rate-Chart-NEW/159





That's a meme snapped from TV show, Tucker Carlson, interviewing a grade-school principal lady
who got fired for posting "conservative" memes on her personal fakebook page.
She is suing the school board in PA, God bless her.
Oh, here's a few more of the memes that got the lady principal fired for showing them on her fakebook:



Joe Biden voters are advised to riot at home and destroy their own $h!t when SCOTUS overturns the fraudulent election.
Joe Biden voters need to pound their own turds.
They can pretend they are making mashed potatoes out of their imaginary spud running against Joe Biden.
Alas, looting is not possible from their own homes. Hopefully they will just stay home and riot harder, due to Covid.



Joe Biden voters staying home prevents other crimes as well:

Finally read a little about CFE-223:

The conventional wisdom was that the +4000-fps .220 Swift was a barrel burner.
Not so.
It just copper fouls badly.
The oldtimers had no bore scopes nor the super-duper copper cleaners we have now.
Most of the "shot out" .220 Swift barrels would have been returned to accuracy by a good cleaning.
So says Bryce M. Towsley in the HODGDON'S 2012 ANNUAL MANUAL,
introducing "Copper Fouling Eraser" CFE-223 powder for public consumption.

It turns out that the .204 Ruger
32-gr @ 4225 fps,
24-gr @ 4400 fps,
even faster than the Swift,
had been using Hodgdon CFE-223 powder, loaded by Hornady.
It was finally released as component powder to the public by Hodgdon in 2012.
The .204 Ruger was clean and fast and not a horrible barrel burner.
It was a success because of CFE-223 powder.

This Copper Fouling Eraser (TM) is an industrial secret worthy of Chinese theft.
Hodgdon should be on the watch for espionage from Joe and Hunter Biden and Eric Swalwell/Fartwell.

It reportedly works as some sort of "lubricity enhancer" that prevents the pores of a barrel from filling with copper fouling.
The would-be copper fouling and the CFE agent both scoot out the barrel with each shot.

Reckon it works just as well with brass, bronze, pure copper, and gilding metal ?
All are mostly composed of copper.



.458 TRUMP
Truly Realized Ultimate Magnum Perfection
.458 Winchester Magnum Perfection
Nota bene: In maxima potentia parvum spatium.
Id venit et vicit omnis.

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:

quote:

Originally posted by jerry mcdonald:
... With all that said, I could just re-name the big rifle .338 TRUMP 4.0 inch! I would heartily suppose .338 cal, 300 grains and 3000 fps would indeed make a correct 338 TRUMP, No? ; ]

Big thumbsup on that, Jerry.



("Boddington Pose" of a normal thumb turns it into a "trophy thumb.")

.458 TRUMP
Truly Realized Ultimate Magnum Perfection
.458 Winchester Magnum Perfection
Nota bene: In maxima potentia parvum spatium.
Id venit et vicit omnis.

Funny stuff RIP, good score on the CFE-223, I have several lbs of it here, excellent in the 7.62 REPR and 22-250 varmint eliminator with 55gr NBT's, wish my JES rebore 458 TRUMP would hurry up, I'm past ready for some chrono and target testing, a few pics sent for the benevolent benefit of ALL things "The Mission!" ; ]

RIP, thanks for buying some CFE223 for the MISSION. I have a pound of it here, and had intended a while back to put it to the test, but at the moment have no place to shoot and chrony, so unfortunately, I may need to watch as you or others get results first. I've put out feelers to some friends to see if I can get an outdoor range session, so I'll do my best to try out some CFE223 as well.

I applaud CFE223 testing. Please check temperature differential as well. I've stayed away from it in 308 because of wanting to go from 100*F to 32*F.

Another beautiful work of art from Jerry.
I call it "Three that Bag Well":



1) Bill Bagwell custom Bowie made to fit Jerry's hand.
2) .458 TRUMP 3.6".
3) .338 TRUMP 4.0".

.338 TRUMP 4.0" just resting:

Looks like she was resting 1125 yards away, view from the target back to resting spot somewhere across the way.
Maybe Jerry will point out her resting spot, relative to the church steeple down there:

3 shots in the black, within 10 inches center-to-center at 1125 yards. 2 of them less than 2 inches apart.
I'd rest after that too.

Jerry resting:

Load data form Hodgdon's 2020 Annual Manual.

Load data form Hodgdon's 2020 Annual Manual.

bcelliott,

My pleasure. Buy a donkey for the idea.
I have a bunch of 500-gr TSX and old Hornady RNSP to get rid of and would like to compare that CFE-223 to other powders.
It will be excellent at cleaning up the copper fouling.
Overall, it seems to be better with the heavier bullets.
I'll gitterdun after late muzzleloader deer season, weather permitting here too.

416Tanzan,

I am not promising anything on the checking of TBI.
I search the internet for the nerdy studies of that.
One such has shown that those extruded Enduron powders like IMR-4166 are not quite as good as Hodgdon Extreme powders,
like Jerry's Retumbo load in the .338 TRUMP 4.0".

The ThermoBallisticIndependent powders I am liking (or hope to be liking) in the .458 WM-TRUMP so far,
fastest to slowest,
extruded "stick" powders
and spherical or flattened spherical "ball" powders:

H-4198--stick
(Alliant 1200-R)--ball
H-Benchmark--stick
AA-2230--ball
AA-2460--ball
H-4895--stick
(IMR-4166)--stick
H-Varget--stick

I have not yet seen any claims of good TBI for CFE-223, but since it cleans up copper fouling so well, it is well worth use for possible high velocity loads.
A comparison of Hodgdon's CFE-223 to Alliant's Varmint is appealing regardless of TBI.

My TBI "studies" are merely a retrospective of old data of different temperature testing in the same rifle, same load, and lot of powder, hopefully.
Very uncontrolled and on no schedule.

Hi you guys.
Quick question . Seems I remember something being said about Accurate 2230 being temp stable.

There are still some 1 pounders on the shelf of the local toy store.
But I'm trying to only resupply with temp stable powder if I can get away with it.

CTF,

AA-2230 is the gold standard in the SAAMI .458 WM. High velocity, moderate pressure, no compression and great TBI, after 2016 reformulation.
IIRC, stradling did the TBI testing and it was excellent. ThermoBallisticIndependence.
Stock up on it if made in 2016 or later.
Ditto AA-2460 which can give higher velocity at lower pressure but takes up a little more volume per weight of charge, and might require a couple more grains of powder to beat AA-2230.
I persist in thinking AA-2230 is simply AA-2460 with some flattened balls.
That makes AA-2230 pack more densely and burn slightly faster.
Both have excellent TBI.

CTF;

Also, if you have Hornady no.7 or 9, read what they have to say about H335 for the Lott in last paragraph; and for the .448 Win.

I've found it to be very resistant to temp changes. In fact, I've found none better in the .458 WM, though I've not had the recent (2016) A2230 or 2460.

In my older lots of 2230 and 2460, 2460 was similar to H335 and 2230 not quite as good.

H4895 will give higher MVs for the 450s and 500s than H335, but it has to be compressed more severely, and has not proven to be as temp resistant as H335 in my experience.

RIP: Thanks for all the research, study and trials for the .458 Win.

Bob
www.bigbores.ca

Bob,

You forgot the .416 Barrett in your latest blog listing of .416-caliber "sporting" rifles.

Tenth edition of Hornady says same thing too:

SAAMI .458 Winchester Magnum (p. 767):
24"
H335 76.3 gr >>> 2150 fps
AA-2230 78.3 gr >>> 2200 fps
"Our test rifle was exceptionally accurate. Most loads produced good groups, with H335 performing exceptionally well. The reloader must be careful not to load charges that are less than those listed, as potentially hazardous situations can occur."

SAAMI .458 Lott (p. 770):
24"
H335 79.3 gr >>> 2200 fps
WIN 748 86.8 >>> 2250 fps
"Powders with a medium burn rate gave the best results in our tests. Our choice of powder for this cartridge is Hodgdon 335. It gave good accuracy, consistent pressures, and good velocities while providing excellent resistance to extreme hot and cold conditions."

Also no changes in data from 9th edition.

Hodgdon's 2020 Annual Manual says this about the new powder WINCHESTER StaBALL 6.5:
"Never before, has a BALL powder propellant been temperature insensitive, but now StaBALL 6.5 is stable in all conditions, hot or cold!
... along with a copper fouling reducing additive.
... Stability, precision and speed make Winchester's new StaBALL 6.5 powder the "Best of the Best"!


On a relative burn rate chart from Hodgdon it is #129, slower than H4350 at #124, and RL-16 at #123.
Surely good in a 6.5 Creedmoor and similar cartridges.

Everything is relative, I reckon,
and there are no absolutes except within marketing hype.
Sort of like what happened with the .458 Lott putting the .458 WM to shame. Laughable.

Some sources say that H4350 is about as good as it gets for TBI, and the IMR Enduron powders are almost as good in thermal stability of internal ballistics.
Some sources say that RL-16 has good TBI.
Some sources say that various BALL powders have good TBI.
Everything is relative, and there are no absolutes, maybe, when switching between different cartridges and bullets and powders.
But, there just might be one absolutely best big game cartridge to do it all, given the various powders and bullets available.

.458 TRUMP
Truly Realized Ultimate Magnum Perfection
.458 Winchester Magnum Perfection
Nota bene: In maxima potentia parvum spatium.
Id venit et vicit omnis.

Ok. Thank Y'all. !

In older Accurate reloading data manuals . 2230 was listed for the 416 Remington also. But now it is not listed.
4198 was what I always used in the 458 with 300 gr X bullets. And it smoked them out @ 2700 fps . But nowadays I'm searching out a 1 or 2 powder solution for the 458,416,and 375 Whelen A.I.
And put it to work loading 223.
H4350 is what I use in the Creed with 140 gr class bullets. And will be what I use in the 338 Winchester. Had good success in the past with imr4350 in the 338.

RIP, very clever on the 'Three that Bag-well" I like it, our old buddy the Master Bladesmith Bagwell built me a hell of a Damascus bowie, 5 inch Damascus skinner too, looking down the mountain to the little church steeple is dew South, go West over to the little brown hay meadow, look to the thicket behind the meadow across the creek next to the highway, that's where I went prone with the 338 TRUMP 4.0" to enjoy some 'landscape' for the election fraud commie attempt theft, and the outright murder of our Fine Constitutional Republic!

I have to say firing three rounds prone with 300 grains at 3000 fps in a very portable stick and move hunting rig of only 10lbs all up will indeed kick you into a better [mood] frame of mind, also, please recuse the face paint, I had been bowhunting an old mid day slipper of a white tail buck that appears to have TWO rocking chairs on his head, no luck, he had his face buried in a patch of snatch somewhere else that day.

Good doins on the CFE-223 too, it's bad to the bone in the 7.62/308 Winchester, I run it in my house and farm LWRC REPR's, 2725 fps is cake with 150gr e-tips from 16 inch barrels, the 176gr Lehighs leave at 2600, good Nightforce optics couple with Armasight Vulcans and a pile of loaded 25 round PMags and you're set for about anything.

Ron,

I remember well that article on the 460 G&A.

Thanks for posting it up.

Looked yesterday at the local toy emporium. Sadly, no H335.
I did cabbage onto another pound of A2230.
Is there some secret passage into Accurate Powder's site to find out when my powder was manufactured ?

quote:

Originally posted by Mike McGuire:
Ron,

I remember well that article on the 460 G&A.

Thanks for posting it up.

I do also. But , I had already gone close to whole hog and gotten my 500 A-Square. At least iirc that was the article.
I know Ross Seyfreid was constantly bashing the 458 Win and carryin on and on about stuff built on the 404 case.

I called the folks at Accurate powder once and was told they do not out a manufacture date on their powder only a lot number, I asked how do I know when it was made to see if I had the newest version he said call us

I guess that's the plan then.

quote:

Originally posted by .458 Only:
CTF;

Also, if you have Hornady no.7 or 9, read what they have to say about H335 for the Lott in last paragraph; and for the .458 Win.

I've found it to be very resistant to temp changes. In fact, I've found none better in the .458 WM, though I've not had the recent (2016) A2230 or 2460.

In my older lots of 2230 and 2460, 2460 was similar to H335 and 2230 not quite as good.

H4895 will give higher MVs for the 450s and 500s than H335, but it has to be compressed more severely, and has not proven to be as temp resistant as H335 in my experience.

RIP: Thanks for all the research, study and trials for the .458 Win.

Bob
www.bigbores.ca

Highest velocity with the 500 gr isn't what I'm pushing for. I hate to say it but. Simplicity is high up on my list.
Has anyone been able to do any penetration tests with the 300 gr plasti cap boattail TSX yet ?

Since I asked about the 400 grain Speer bullet, I thought I would report on my very preliminary results. The Hodgdon data for H-4895 is:



According to Hodgdon Hodgon H4895 Reduced Rifle Loads H-4895 can be reduced to charge that is 60% of the maximum charge. If I remember correctly, John Barsness wrote that the velocity is approximately proportional to the charge, so with a 60% charge we might roughly expect around 60% of the maximum velocity. [The orange line below is the Barsness estimate of velocities from 60% to 100% of full charge.] So, in hopes of getting a muzzle velocity in the 1800-1900 FPS range, I started with 60 grains (78% of the maximum charge.) I loaded three rounds, set up everything, checked the first shot with the LabRadar, then forgot to re-arm it to measure the 2nd two shots. Still, I got a nice 5/8” group @ 50 yards. I then ran up to the house and loaded 3 more rounds with 65.1 grains. Got a somewhat larger group and velocities of 1930, 1996, and 2024 FPS.

I think I may split the difference and call it good. Given the limited supply of these bullets, I can’t afford do too much optimization!



Anyone have any experience with these bullets? They have the virtue of being in stock at Grafs.

Nope but they look a lot like the 405 Remington in form. They could be a harder alloy but hat remains to be seen. Glad to see someone making more 458 bullets!

Re the 400gr Speer again: Speer has upgraded the BC of that bullet from a long history of .214 to its current .259. I don't know if they've improved the nose profile but the drawings don't seem to indicate that. That should add close to 100 yards for similar impact velocity.

I'm not yet done with testing 400s. In the spring, God willing, I'll be testing the 400gr Barnes Buster again (on my test in late 2018 it went through everything and was lost) for accuracy, velocity and penetration. Also the 400gr Hawk (similar profile as the 400 Speer but with a thicker jacket and less lead exposed at the tip) plus the 405 Rem in comparison to the latter two in penetration/weight retention. And I'll likely throw in the Barnes 400gr BTSP. And all against a Brenneke type 12ga 492gr slug at about 1600 fps.

That should be a nice project since I've already chosen where I'll be placing a ground blind for a spring bear hunt.

MERRY CHRISTMAS to ALL!

Bob
www.bigbores.ca

quote:

Originally posted by Hannay:
Since I asked about the 400 grain Speer bullet, I thought I would report on my very preliminary results. The Hodgdon data for H-4895 is:



According to Hodgdon Hodgon H4895 Reduced Rifle Loads H-4895 can be reduced to charge that is 60% of the maximum charge. If I remember correctly, John Barsness wrote that the velocity is approximately proportional to the charge, so with a 60% charge we might roughly expect around 60% of the maximum velocity. [The orange line below is the Barsness estimate of velocities from 60% to 100% of full charge.] So, in hopes of getting a muzzle velocity in the 1800-1900 FPS range, I started with 60 grains (78% of the maximum charge.) I loaded three rounds, set up everything, checked the first shot with the LabRadar, then forgot to re-arm it to measure the 2nd two shots. Still, I got a nice 5/8” group @ 50 yards. I then ran up to the house and loaded 3 more rounds with 65.1 grains. Got a somewhat larger group and velocities of 1930, 1996, and 2024 FPS.

I think I may split the difference and call it good. Given the limited supply of these bullets, I can’t afford do too much optimization!



Anyone have any experience with these bullets? They have the virtue of being in stock at Grafs.

That's too much lead exposed in my view, depending on hardness and velocity of course -- and the animal to be shot, and where bullet impact happens, and jacket material, etc.

Thanks in advance for a report.

Bob
www.bigbores.ca

Actually, after having done a ballistic profile of the "new" 400gr Speer with a BC of .259 against the "old" 400gr Speer with a BC of "only" .214, the advantage of the "new" over the "old" is 50 yards (NOT "close to 100"when started at 1800 fps). That "new" bullet will have about the same impact velocity at 300 yards as the "old" does at 250 yards.

At close range (100 yards?) any difference would not be significant.

That's for those who might want the details.

Bob
www.bigbores.ca

quote:

Originally posted by .458 Only:
Actually, after having done a ballistic profile of the "new" 400gr Speer with a BC of .259 against the "old" 400gr Speer with a BC of "only" .214, the advantage of the "new" over the "old" is 50 yards (NOT "close to 100"when started at 1800 fps). That "new" bullet will have about the same impact velocity at 300 yards as the "old" does at 250 yards.

At close range (100 yards?) any difference would not be significant.

That's for those who might want the details.

Bob
www.bigbores.ca

Unless the 400 grain Speer has had the jacket thickened I think it slugs up in the bore so the nose would change and especially if hit harder with quicl burning powders.

In a pair of the old push feed M70 Super Grade 458s, about 1971 vintage, I got great accuracy with both 70 grains of 4064 and 70 grains of 3031 and velocities of 2000 and 2100 f/s. However, if I took the velocity to 2000-2100 with 4198 the bullet appeared to come apart downrange, maybe 50 or a 100 yards out. They were OK in a Ruger #1 but those M70 458s seemed to have very sharp rifling and I think the harder initial acceleration might have caused the bullet to slug up hard enough for the jacket to be cut by that rifling.

Interesting reading

458 Win Mag vs 458 Lott: What You Know May Be Wrong

https://thebiggamehuntingblog....D121DIyNPltUolA_yijI