quote:

Originally posted by 4sixteen:
Ghost shoulder seems to be what it continues to be referred to as on the .458 Lott case in the popular press and has stuck when describing this round.

Yes, it is a MISNOMER to call that a "ghost shoulder" which is just FAKE NEWS from the POPULAR PRESS.
The whole concept of "ghost shoulder" is just marketing hype for the likes of the 470 Capstick,
to distinguish it from the several .475/.375 H&H cartridges that came before it.
A ghost shoulder is of no consequence when designed into the chamber reamer of a cartridge.
It does not get designed into the reloading dies for that cartridge.

I first started reloading the .458 WIN LongCOL with the inadvertent booboo of the wasp-waisted seating.
This restricts the case capacity of the .458 WIN, and we do not need that:



I eventually decided the above bullet works better at 3.395", seated deeper, it even works through the box of a Ruger Mark II .458 WIN, Alderella.
Wasp-waisted seating that deep would add to compression of powder.

I corrected that wasp-waisting booboo by using the proper combo of FL sizer and a necking-up/belling plug inserted just enough.
The plug increases the inside neck diameter to accept a .452-cal trimmer pilot for the Hornady Lock-n-Load case-prepper machine.
The case-mouth-belling plug of the RCBS .458 Win.Mag. dies is that plug.
It is longer in length than the Redding plug.
I stop it just short of adding any bell to the case mouth.
This gives a parallel-sided case neck to the tapering .458 Win.Mag. case at a point where they blend to same diameter.
JUST LIKE A GHOST SHOULDER on the ammo, not in the chamber.
This is my set of dies for the .458 WIN LongCOL, using 3 different makes of .458 Win.Mag. dies:

Redding FL Sizer die
RCBS Neck Expander/Belling die
Redding Seating die for pointy bullets
RCBS Seating die for FN and RN bullets
Lee Factory Crimp die: Crimps light or heavy, however you like.

The Redding neck-expander plug is just too short in length, cannot avoid wasp-waisting when seating short bullets shallowly.
RCBS's neck-expander plug is much longer.
The seater plugs are different in my die sets, but you can get alternatives for either RCBS or Redding.
I may have swapped one or the other from another set of dies such as the .458 Lott, .450 Dakota, 460 Wby, .450 BS, etc.
I have 4 makes of .458 Win.Mag dies: Redding, RCBS, Lee, Hornady.
Other combinations of these may be used to eliminate wasp-waisted wasting of case capacity.
I have not even tried the Hornady dies nor any part of the Lee dies other than the Lee crimper.
I keep them on hand as quick-switch backup if I get a case stuck from inadequate lube.
It just makes me feel warm and fuzzy inside to have any .458 Win.Mag. reloading dies within reach.

Thus, with no wasp-waisting, I.E., no case-capacity wasting and uglifying with no other benefit,
I was delighted to find that 84.0 grains of AA-2230 fits inside the .458 WIN LongCOL with zero compression,
when the .458/.450-grain TSX is seated to 3.680" COL
and when the .458/500-grain TSX is seated to 3.780" COL.



Rip ...

BTW, ain't that some pretty Hornady .458 WIN brass?
That is once-fired stuff that I used two pieces of equipment on that are new for me.

First was the Hornady Lock-N-Load Case Prep Center.
That is my new favorite case trimmer.
I am leaving it set up to trim to 2.500" with the .452-cal pilot that comes with it.
A few of the once-fired Hornady brass were actually over 2.500".
Most were about 2.495", a few as short as 2.490".
I ran all 111 cases of this batch through the trimmer to gage and uniform them.
Most did not get shortened.
So now they are all between 2.490" and 2.500".
Eventually they will all be 2.500" long.
Trim-to specs for the .458 WIN LongCOL:
Minimum = 2.500"
Maximum = 2.500"

The second new piece of equipment I used for the first time was the Frankford Arsenal (Midway USA)
rotary tumbler with stainless-steel-pin media,
water, and brass cleaning solution.
I am now hooked on that.
That sucker will handle 1000 .223 cases in a single batch.

The vibratory tumbler and corn cob is relegated to hBN coating of jacketed and monometal copper bullets.
Maybe it would work for powder-coat painting of cast-lead bullets, tumbled in a plastic bottle the size of the Tubb TBN kit bottle?
Though shaking by hand in a slightly bigger container works fine ...

Rip ...

The Nikon SlugHunter and InLine are discontinued.
My SlugHunter warranty work resulted in replacement with a "Nikon PROSTAFF P3 SHOTGUN 3-9x40."
All because of an extruded O-ring seal in front of the objective lens, they replaced my SlugHunter that had worked fine for over 400 rounds of .458 WIN.
The new instruction manual:

The shotgun and muzzleloader scopes are both parallaxed for 100 yards now.
Eye Relief is still 5.0" throughout high to low power range for both scopes.

New (top) versus old (bottom), right side view:

New (top) versus old (bottom), left side view:

Top view, old one above the new one, in picture below:



The new ocular bell is shaped slightly differently, and the ocular lens focuses for my eye at a shorter overall length.
The new power-change ring has a locking screw and lacks the protruding "rubber thumb lug."
It is made of grooved alloy instead of "rubberized," has a more positive grip feel, just like the new turret caps.
That's all good.

The turret caps are now made of aluminum alloy instead of plastic. They screw on and off more nicely, better-cut threads of better function.
Adjustments are still clicks, and labeled more cleanly as 1/4 MOA:



The SlugHunter has now gone Black, and changed its name to "Nikon Prostaff P3 Shotgun 3-9x40."
The short scope-mounting length is still the same, 4.7".
Weight is now 15.2 ounces versus old 14.7 ounces: More alloy, less plastic and rubber, less blight of logos on the outside of the scope.
Better functioning in some ways.
Same BDC-200 reticle.
It seems more solid. Only a half-ounce heavier.
Still has the same rubber O-ring in front of the objective lens.
I need a spanner tool to check for tightness of the screw-in retaining ring inside the front of the objective bell.

Still just $199.95 at MidwayUSA: https://www.midwayusa.com/prod...dc-200-reticle-matte

Rip ...

The P3 Shotgun 3-9x40 pays for its long, constant eye relief with a 3X FOV of only 25.1 feet at 100 yards.

Its range of adjustment is only 55 MOA for elevation and 55 MOA for windage.
IIRC, the SlugHunter had 60 MOA for each axis.
I wonder if a small adjustment range makes it more rugged, more likely to hold the zero with recoil?

Rip ...

RIP--thanks for the review. That is quite helpful.

It also implies something that I've thought all along: the Prostaff series are intended to be RUGGED, too. I put a Prostaff 2-7 (non-shotgun) on a grandkids Kimber Hunter in 308W. The eye-relief is only 3.8" but a 308 is not a kicker.

I never understood the transparency claims in Nikon ads, where the Inline was rated up with the Monarch (95%) but the Prostaff were down around 90%-92% IIRC. They've all been good in my eyes. but my wife thinks that her Inline seems clearer than an old Prostaff she had. Maybe the slightly larger black ring in the Inline subliminally gives a sense of greater contrast, black vs. clear?
I still like the old Monarch 2-8, too, for sub-40 caliber, we have one on our Tanzania 416.

416Tanzan,

Welcome and thanks for ringing THE MISSION bell.

If you go here:

http://spoton.nikonsportoptics.../spoton.html#Index:5

... and scroll through the current and discontinued models in the scope selection window (long list),
you will find these models in the "Discontinued" group:

Inline XR 3-9x40 BDC 300
SlugHunter 1.65-5x36 BDC 200-2 Circle
SlugHunter 3-9x40 BDC 200-2 Circle
SlugHunter 3-9x40 BDC 200-4 Circle
SlugHunter 1.65-5x36 Nikoplex

4 different SlugHunters and the Inline XR gone.

Rip ...

quote:

4 different SlugHunters and the Inline XR gone.

They are mostly renamed and merged into the larger product series.

However, the 1.65-5 models have definitely disappeared. Apparently, a 1.65 magnification just didn't appeal or sell well enough. I still have one of them.

I have not minded moving up to the 3-9 models. Three power can be used up close and dirty. It was an old fixed-power of choice for many using 375's back 35 years ago in Africa. (I tended to use either 4-power or the Leupold 2.6-7.8 [actual magnification].) With lighter monolithic bullets today we are able to take advantage of the other end of the spectrum, towards 9-power. I shot a deer last month in California at 302 yards. The scope was an Inline on a 338WM. I was grateful for the 9-power. The deer was mostly face-on and in shade, and the magnification was helpful. A person needs confidence in their equipment.

The scope on my .458 Ruger Tropical is a 2 - 7 x 32mm Nikon Prostaff. It doesn't say "Slug Hunter" on the scope but on the box it reads "Shotgun". Whatever, it has been an ideal scope for the #1 Ruger LT and now on the .458. I like it a lot. It's very bright and clear, plus adjustments appear to be precise at 1/4" per click. It has also held its zero despite being a testing platform for a lot of .458 projectiles from 300s to 500s going down range from 2650 to 2200 fps respectively. In between it has shot mostly 350s that have also been the primary weight for hunting purposes, though I did shoot one bear with the 500gr Hornady at +/-2200 fps.

It has proved to be a tough scope to this point in time.

I paid more than $200 for it, but costs for such items in Canada are always more than south of the border since they are usually imported from there. Then our dollar is only worth about $0.75 compared to the American. I've paid more for some scopes and less for some others, but I think that one from Nikon is a better product overall that some others that were significantly more expensive.

Bob
www.bigbores.ca

Yep, Nikons are a great bargain, quality high, price low.

Now for the latest on Bobbarrella, following in Bob's footsteps:

350-grain TSX treated with Tubb's hBN
Once-fired Hornady brass trimmed to 2.500"
WLRM primer
COL 3.440"
25" Shilen barrel
H4198 81.0 grains (drop-tubed for ~104% volumetric fill, mildly compressed)
Started shooting at 43*F with lesser loads, finished with this load at 41*F.

3 shots, 5-yard chronograph fps:
2782
2785
2797
Instrumental Velocity Average = 2788 fps
Sd = 7.9 fps
MOA = 0.93
Corrected to MV for BC of .271 (add 18 fps) >>> 2806 fps
Kinetic Energy at muzzle = 6119 ft-lbs




Still no pressure signs.
However, the 78.0-grain charge of H4198 is the one for culling work in tropical climates.
It gave MV = 2663 fps, Sd = 0 fps for 3 shots, and KE = 5511 ft-lbs.
Strangely, accuracy was only 1.30 MOA for 3 shots.
Must be the wrong node for the rifle or just the nut pulling the trigger.
78.0 grains of H4198 is about 100% volumetric filling with drop tube.

I was using the muzzle brake and the Bushnell Elite 10X:



Need to load some more with the 78.0 grain charge and try a real hunting scope and no brake for a final zero with Bobbarrella.

Best accuracy of the day was a 3-shot with the 450-grain TSX and 82.0 grains of AA-2230:

450-grain TSX treated with Tubb's hBN
Once-fired Hornady brass trimmed to 2.500"
GM215M primer
COL 3.680"
25" Shilen barrel
AA-2230 82.0 grains (drop-tubed, no compression, ~98% volumetric fill)
Temperature: 41*F.

3 shots, 5-yard chronograph fps:
2437
2433
2437
Instrumental Velocity Average = 2436 fps
Sd = 2.3 fps
MOA = 0.33
Corrected to MV for BC of .369 (add 12 fps) >>> 2448 fps
Kinetic Energy at muzzle = 5987 ft-lbs

84.0 grains AA-2230 >>> 2469 fps MV, Sd = 5.8 fps, KE = 6091 fps, but not as accurate.
And still no pressure indications!
I give up trying to overload the .458 WIN LongCOL!

The KDF muzzle brake's exit hole measures only 0.475" by my caliper.
That is only 17 thou bigger than bullet diameter.
It is very effective at reducing recoil of a .458 WIN LongCOL.
It felt like a BB gun, and I felt like a sissy.
Luckily, while shooting, I was the only one at the range today.
I packed up soon as the latecomers started arriving.
They never knew I was using a muzzle brake.

Rip ...

What happens when a 458+col accidentally ends up in a standard Lott chamber, especially in a DG rifle where someone could under stress force the bolt home? Boom?

quote:

Originally posted by 86thecat:
What happens when a 458+col accidentally ends up in a standard Lott chamber, especially in a DG rifle where someone could under stress force the bolt home? Boom?

Well remember the 458 Win loading RIP is talking about means the length from case head/base to bullet/ogive etc. is the same as if it was a 458 Lott.

If we take rifles the Rem 700 and M70 are about 3.6" magazine. The CZ and Mark V Wby are about 3.8' Yes, I know the Ren 700 is a bit longer than the M70 and the CZ a bit longer than the Mark V.

So if you have a CZ or Mark V in 458 Lott you can have about 3.8" OAL. If for example you load a 500 grain Hornady so OAL is 3.8" in the 458 Win the distance from the rifling is the same as a 3.8" OAL in the 458 Lott.

quote:

Originally posted by 86thecat:
What happens when a 458+col accidentally ends up in a standard Lott chamber, especially in a DG rifle where someone could under stress force the bolt home? Boom?

I can't wait for RIP to answer that one!

Thanks RIP for your work -- those results look great!

Bob

www.bigbores.ca

quote:

Originally posted by Mike McGuire:

So if you have a CZ or Mark V in 458 Lott you can have about 3.8" OAL. If for example you load a 500 grain Hornady so OAL is 3.8" in the 458 Win the distance from the rifling is the same as a 3.8" OAL in the 458 Lott.

But the Lott is limited to 3.6" COL regardless - unless some smith has worked on the chamber of the Lott.

Bob

www.bigbores.ca

The quick explanation is that at COL of 3.6" the WM still has 1/4" jump to the lands but the Lott is almost touching the lands. Over 3.6" the Lott could be jammed into the rifling with a serious overcharge of powder. Throat on the Lott is surprisingly short, and the WM throat is about a mile and a half longer than one would expect.

SAAMI Drawings, p150+
https://saami.org/wp-content/u...AAMI_CFR.pdf#page=13

Lott throat ends at 3.129"
WM throat ends at 3.642"

quote:

Originally posted by 86thecat:
The quick explanation is that at COL of 3.6" the WM still has 1/4" jump to the lands but the Lott is almost touching the lands. Over 3.6" the Lott could be jammed into the rifling with a serious overcharge of powder. Throat on the Lott is surprisingly short, and the WM throat is about a mile and a half longer than one would expect.

I know exactly the point you are making. However, I don't think it will make a difference in a practical sense. Now if were talking about something like a 264 and especially with 140 grain bullets then things can be different.

Also bear in mind the number of 458 Lotts that are rechambered 458 Winchesters.

Also both the 458 Lott and 458 Winchester have a huge expansion ration.

Last and definitely not least, it is fair to say anyone following RIP's recommendations will be a keen reloader with a good deal experience. 99.99% of people who reload could read this thread and will load the 458 Winchester to the bullet cannelure or the 3.3" OA: because that is what is says in the Hornady etc. manual.

quote:

Originally posted by 86thecat:
What happens when a 458+col accidentally ends up in a standard Lott chamber, especially in a DG rifle where someone could under stress force the bolt home? Boom?

WHAT? Somebody is finally admitting that the .458 WIN LongCOL can shoot fast and low pressure with a load that might trouble a .458 Lott?

We are finally getting somewhere.

True, with some bullets, the .458 WIN could be loaded long enough for a functional load in the .458 Winchester Magnum SAAMI chamber,
yet be too long to even close the bolt on that load in a .458 Lott SAAMI chamber.
Rare, but it could happen with the 500-grain Barnes TSX loaded to 3.780" in the .458 WIN,
which is just barely off the rifling in the .458 Win.Mag. SAAMI chamber.
That makes a great load for the .458 WIN LongCOL.
Being just off the lands may be why it is a bugholer (0.19 MOA 3-shot) in the .458 WIN at 2250 fps MV.
That is with 78.0 grains AA-2230, in a CZ barrel (24-78").
83.0 grains AA-2230 moved the 500-grainer along at 2342 fps MV (1.42 MOA 3-shot) in same rifle, showing non-accuracy-node thing again,
but 6090 ft-lbs, and no pressure signs.

A short-throated .458 Lott might not be able to close the bolt on that, as a single-shot loading in a 3.6"-boxed rifle.

Not so for the 350-gr TSX and 450-gr TSX .458 WIN LongCOL loads.
You could close the bolt on those in a SAAMI .458 Lott, even though the 450-gr load won't fit in the 3.6" magazine box.
Probably would just cause sticky extraction, brass extrusion/smearing on the breech face and flattened/cratered primer,
maybe pierced primer, or at worst, primer falling out of the brass when the rifle was hammered open.

In summary, the .458 WIN LongCOL makes the redfaced .458 Lott eat dust.

Rip ...

So, when someone looses their fingers, that's fine and you will cover their bills. Reveling in unsafe and possibly dangerous reloading practices to stroke one's own ego is about as bad as it gets.

Barrel grooves:

CZ may be 0.4590":
Meets SAAMI minimum spec of 0.458" for groove, while SAAMI maximum spec for bullet is 0.459". Nice.

Shilen might be 0.4585" in the groove diameter.
Shilen might give a little more velocity and pressure for same load that was so happy in the CZ barrel.
Hence I used the hBN powder which might have created a 5% reduction in pressure with only a 3% reduction in velocity,
according to the Youtube Guy of Sharpshooting UK.
So if you get your pressures back up by adding more powder, you might end up with higher velocity than with the untreated bullet,
by burning more powder at same pressure.
The Sharpshooting UK Guy suggested a 2% increase in powder charge might be needed.
Seems the hBN powder works nicely with H4198 and 350-grain TSX and WLRM primer.
Ditto the hBN powder with AA-2230 and 450-grain TSX and GM215M/F215 primer.
I guess I will hBN-treat the 500-grain TSX 3.780" COL loads and see if there are similar good results,
in Bobbarella Shilen-CZ, like in Chimera WinCZechster.

The hBN might be compensating for a .0005" tighter Shilen barrel.
Just a SWAG.

Rip ...

About the comparison of WLRM primer to GM215M/F215 primer,
with three shots of each primer in the same starting loads with H4198 and AA-2230:

I started off with H4198 in a clean barrel, with starting load,
no hBN treatment beforehand.
Velocities were erratic, with the 77.0-gr charge and averaged higher than with the 78.0-gr charge which settled down to 3 identical readings in a row.
Standard Deviation for three shots = 0.0 fps.
Such an event happens randomly, now and then, but maybe the hBN works as claimed?
I never could take a shine to moly, but I like this hBN.

Seemed no discernable difference between the two primers' erratic velocities, but impossible to say unless re-testing after the barrel is pre-treated.

Then the Caldwell Chronograph's rechargeable battery died, as I was getting readings on the other 3-shots of WLRM primer with AA-2230.
No readings there, I had to switch to ProChrono with a fresh, disposable 9-volt battery.

As it was, those wasted shots were not totally wasted, they were the pre-treatment for the remaining shots.

Reportedly you can clean your barrel, then use an isopropyl alcohol solution/suspension of hBN (1 teasp in 16 oz of 180 to 190 proof) to swab your barrel before shooting again, after cleaning,
to keep things steady state, from first shot to last.
Reduced copper fouling, reduced carbon fouling is claimed.
Not a bad thing when using Barnes TSX bullets!

Stop using the hBN and eventually the rifle shoots clean of it.

quote:

Originally posted by 86thecat:
So, when someone looses their fingers, that's fine and you will cover their bills. Reveling in unsafe and possibly dangerous reloading practices to stroke one's own ego is about as bad as it gets.

86thecat has set himself up for NAYSAYING with a weak argument.
The .458 WIN LongCOL is not that much different from a .458 Lott.
It is only marginally better.
No kaboom material here.

If you can't close the bolt on the cartridge, don't try to pull the trigger.

It is highly ironic that someone is now fearing the .458 Winchester Magnum loaded into a .458 Lott after the decades of concocted pooh-pooh.

Children should be supervised by adults when handling ammunition and firearms, when reloading or shooting.


This also begs the question, should .458 Lott rifles be banned to make the world a safer place?
Or should we ban handloading to make the world a safer place?

Rip ...

Enlightenment to shoo away a cockroach of ignorance from the mind of a NAYSAYER is shown below the quote:

quote:

Originally posted by 86thecat:
The quick explanation is that at COL of 3.6" the WM still has 1/4" jump to the lands but the Lott is almost touching the lands. Over 3.6" the Lott could be jammed into the rifling with a serious overcharge of powder. Throat on the Lott is surprisingly short, and the WM throat is about a mile and a half longer than one would expect.

SAAMI Drawings, p150+
https://saami.org/wp-content/u...AAMI_CFR.pdf#page=13

Lott throat ends at 3.129"
WM throat ends at 3.642"

You are ending the throats above at bore diameter of 0.450" for both.
That is exactly right, as specified early on in this thread.






BUT! BIG BUT HERE: That is not where bullet interference in chambering a round begins!

Actually the start of rifling when firing a .458 bullet occurs when the throat decreases to groove diameter at the start of the lands.

In the SAAMI .458 Lott that is at 3.0143".
In the SAAMI .458 Win.Mag. that is at 3.1725".
That is the distance from breech face where the full diameter bullet will contact the rifling.

Remember too that they made the .458 Lott 0.3" longer than the .458 WIN, but gave it a usual magazine box only 0.2" longer than the .458 WIN.
Poor .458 Lott.


Thanks to 86thecat for ringing THE MISSION bell.
And same to the more agreeable members here too.
All are welcome at THE MISSION.
Just a regular YMCA here.

Rip ...

In the worst of all possible worlds, The Nanny State has stepped in, and we have to ban something for our own safety.

1) The .458 Winchester Magnum, our friend since 1956.

2) The .458 Lott, interloper circa 1971, me-too of the forerunner .450 Watts Magnum of 1949.

3) Handloading.

The choice is easy, ban the .458 Lott.
It won't be missed at all since handloading has not been banned.

And furthermore, this thread presents the possibilities and shows the realities of what can be done with the .458 Winchester Magnum.
This includes standard SAAMI loadings and the wildcat, longer Cartridge Overall Length (COL) loading of rifles with the identical SAAMI chamber.
The .458 WIN LongCOL is a wildcat.
Yes, it can be made too big and powerful for a .458 Lott rifle user.
It might hurt his feelings.

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by .458 Only:

quote:

Originally posted by 86thecat:
What happens when a 458+col accidentally ends up in a standard Lott chamber, especially in a DG rifle where someone could under stress force the bolt home? Boom?

I can't wait for RIP to answer that one!

Thanks RIP for your work -- those results look great!

Bob

www.bigbores.ca

Hey Bob,

Welcome and thank you to someone who knows how it goes.
Just duplicating your good work with a little twist of hexagonal boron nitride and a Shilen barrel.
Is that a good enough answer to 86thecat?
Seems he wants to eight-six the wildcat?
I've got your six on this one, and you have mine,
thanks again.

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by 86thecat:
So, when someone looses their fingers, that's fine and you will cover their bills. Reveling in unsafe and possibly dangerous reloading practices to stroke one's own ego is about as bad as it gets.

Nuts! If someone is dumb enough to do something that dumb. It's on them !!
One of the stupidest posts I've ever read on AR !

Not to denigrate the long-col, but what is the best powder for loading short 458WM cartridges that might fit in a standard M98 magazine?

I like the shorter bolt throw of the FN Mauser etc and was wondering if a bullet like the Woodleigh 480-grain RN SN (or even the longer FMJ) could be got to velocities similar to the .450 NE without risk of powder clumping etc.

quote:

Originally posted by sambarman338:
Not to denigrate the long-col, but what is the best powder for loading short 458WM cartridges that might fit in a standard M98 magazine?

I like the shorter bolt throw of the FN Mauser etc and was wondering if a bullet like the Woodleigh 480-grain RN SN (or even the longer FMJ) could be got to velocities similar to the .450 NE without risk of powder clumping etc.

I think AA2230 is the powder you want. And I think Ozhunter loads his 458 with the 480s to match the 450 at 2150. Powder might have a different name there though.

I really tried to look at the hen scratching on drafting paper, floating base line and all, but just got a headache. It seems the point is that in the WM chamber the bullet begins to contact rifling at 3.172" from bolt face. That still means that a bullet will FULLY engrave the rifling in a lott chamber .043" before it would even begin to contact the rifling of a WM chamber. The bullet will also be FULLY engraved a half inch (.469") earlier (from bolt face) in a lott barrel than a WM barrel. IF that is wrong please correct me, but it certainly looks like enough difference in throat length to possibly create high enough pressure to cause injury. It may only take one round of the Magic OAL wildcat, especially when over 3.60", getting into a Lott chamber to potentially cause problems. Worse case scenario would be an appy using some Magic OAL left behind ammo and wrecking his rifle or getting trampled.
Handloaders should experiment as they like with their own firearms but only if they risk only their own eyes and fingers. Promoting potentially dangerous reloading with no warnings or disclaimers to anyone reading this sight, irregardless of their knowledge, is really a sad testament to what this site has become.
As a side note, we discussed much of this 10 years ago, certainly not a new "wildcat".
And as we discussed years ago, I still load 450TSX to 3.60" OAL @ 2350 fps in my CZ550 WM but am darned careful that my ammo only goes in my rifle.

86thecat,

quote:

Originally posted by 86thecat:
I really tried to look at the hen scratching on drafting paper, floating base line and all, but just got a headache.

Have you considered a new RX for your spectacles?
Here is another view with pointers to guide your wobbling eyes. There is no floating baseline:



One correction on the above drawing: 1955 should replace the 1956. Winchester had it shooting the year before it was marketed.

It seems the point is that in the WM chamber the bullet begins to contact rifling at 3.172" from bolt face. That still means that a bullet will FULLY engrave the rifling in a lott chamber .043" before it would even begin to contact the rifling of a WM chamber. The bullet will also be FULLY engraved a half inch (.469") earlier (from bolt face) in a lott barrel than a WM barrel. IF that is wrong please correct me, but it certainly looks like enough difference in throat length to possibly create high enough pressure to cause injury.

I don't care to check your arithmetic, if you don't trust your fingers and toes.
You are otherwise speculating about worst case scenarios always possible for Darwin Award Winners.
You should stop handloading and shooting if it preys upon your mind like this.

It may only take one round of the Magic OAL wildcat, especially when over 3.60", getting into a Lott chamber to potentially cause problems. Worse case scenario would be an appy using some Magic OAL left behind ammo and wrecking his rifle or getting trampled.

Stupid is as stupid does, and it would take two stupids to tango in that speculation.

Handloaders should experiment as they like with their own firearms but only if they risk only their own eyes and fingers.

Not to mention the rest of their anatomies.

Promoting potentially dangerous reloading with no warnings or disclaimers to anyone reading this sight (sic), irregardless (sic) of their knowledge, is really a sad testament to what this site has become.

Poor baby!

As a side note, we discussed much of this 10 years ago, certainly not a new "wildcat".

Of course not, Finn Aagaard was doing the .458 WIN LongCOL when you were in diapers, apparently, if it was new to you 10 years ago.

And as we discussed years ago, I still load 450TSX to 3.60" OAL @ 2350 fps in my CZ550 WM but am darned careful that my ammo only goes in my rifle.

Wow! I am truly impressed with your daring handloading and conscientious ammo handling.
You must be some kind of conscientious objector to exceeding 3.60" COL with the .458WIN.

"Irregardless" is a double negative, and is never acceptable except when the intent is clearly humorous,
as in trying to sound like an uneducated nattering naybob of negativity.
Are you trying to be funny?
You mean "regardless" if you are trying to be serious.



Cold Trigger Finger,

Excellent. You have a way with words, like a WWII General responding to the German demand for surrender. Nuts!
Eighty-six the nut.

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by sambarman338:
Not to denigrate the long-col, but what is the best powder for loading short 458WM cartridges that might fit in a standard M98 magazine?

I like the shorter bolt throw of the FN Mauser etc and was wondering if a bullet like the Woodleigh 480-grain RN SN (or even the longer FMJ) could be got to velocities similar to the .450 NE without risk of powder clumping etc.

sambarman338,

Understood.
I like filling the short box with SAAMI loads and shooting the LongCOL off the top as single loaders,
whenever I can get a useful pair of POI's like
dead on at 50-100 yards with the short ones,
and dead-on way out there with the long ones.

BaxterB is correct about AA-2230 for the SAAMI loads with 480-500-grainers.

But if you have trouble finding that, BENCHMARK works just as well.
Made in OZ, AR-BMk2 or AR-2219, or what is closest to Hodgdon Benchmark Extreme?

A review of a favorite load with 500-grainers, ought to do for 480 grainers with even less pressure for close to same velocity:

Actual velocities of 25" and 27.5" for same barrel, shortened,
black asterisks for handload,
red asterisks for factory load.
Treated as if linear function for velocity versus barrel length, over the short interval shown is only an approximation:

Rip,

All you seem to have are insults and playing grammar Nazi.

Hope your dementia meds kick in soon so you can think rationally.

Hodgdon data for BENCHMARK, pressures in CUP,
53,000 is SAAMI maximum of old, now it is 60,000 psi,
should be comparable:

Thanks RIP and BaxterB,

Will analyse your advice over the next day or two - things really move fast on this thread.

sambarman338,

Look at Varget too. That is ADI's AR-2208 from Oz isn't it?

Here is historical data showing parabolic curves for velocity versus barrel length,
transformed to my chicken scratchings:



Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by 86thecat:
Rip,

All you seem to have are insults and playing grammar Nazi.

Hope your dementia meds kick in soon so you can think rationally.

86thecat,

What else am I to do with such tedious comments?
Better to fling the horse crap in hopes of finding that pony.
Thanks to all for ringing THE MISSION bell, here at the stable barn.

Rip ...

RIP, I'ld like to know your opinion on the defunct McCann M1 .458Win.

This thread can't go any further" without you addressing this gun!