quote:

Originally posted by .458 Only:
And I want to apologize to badboymelvin for some harsh words about the article he reference from Allan Jones.

Melvin, I appreciate you and your comments very much. I was reacting to that particular article by Jones on the .458 Win, which I'd read at least a couple of months earlier, and was disappointed with Allan for such a weak presentation...

Please let me explain: I'd had correspondence with and talked with Allan Jones back in 1995 - 96 about pressures for the Ruger No.1 in .45-70, in their #12 that had been reduced from #11 because Ruger had shortened the throat on their #1 in .45-70.

I'd shared with him my loads for the #1 and he approved. Plus he gave me the pressure for several loads recorded for their 400gr in the #1 Ruger in CUP, and none were over 36,000 cup. The #12 manual was showing 56 grains of AA2015 BR at 2018 fps and 35,100 cup.

I was using 64 grains of AA2015. His words: "That would be fine". In fact, he called me back with a lot of info, so I was disappointed in such a "milk toast" presentation on the .458 Win.

But, I understand: Pro writers in magazine articles can't go outside corporate policy for fear of litigation!

But, I've had private correspondence with several that has revealed something of what they might do on their own! That's a hint...

Sorry, badboymelvin, I wasn't unhappy with you!

Bob
www.bigbores.ca

Hi Bob,

No need to apologise at all my friend. I appreciate all that you have done for the .458 over the years and I have personally learnt a lot off you with your blog.
I also appreciate your feedback on the article.
After reading it I thought even though there was some slight praise, it was a bit backhanded. (The article.)
I think the only real reason I posted the article was because I have never come across it before - and I found that strange as I'm always searching the net for .458 articles!

So thank you for your apology but it really wasn't warranted as I took no offence.
We are all united on this thread by our appreciation of the great but much-maligned .458 and we're all on the same team.

And as soon as I put in some more time with my 550gn Woodleigh reloads (at a formidable 2080fps) and hopefully soon a field test, I'll post it all so we can all learn from my experiences.

God Bless!

Russ

BaxterB,

You caught me.
78.3 grains of AA-2230 with 480-gr DGX Bonded at 3.340" COL is mildly compressed.
But it is less compressed than Hornady's load with the 500-gr DGX Bonded at shorter COL, using same powder charge for 2200 fps in a 24" barrel.
It is in the Hornady manual, so that 500-grainer at 2200 fps from a 24" barrel
must be less than 60,000 psi.
Hornady seems to stop at about 500 psi below SAAMI MAP for their manual loads.

83.5 grains of AA-2230 with 480-gr DGX at 3.570" COL is not compressed, just under 100% fill.
Likewise, 84.0 grains would be just over 100% fill.

The 480-gr T6 Buffalo Buster (nose-shortened 500-gr TSX) is going to work best at 3.570" COL,
and similar fills.

I like 100% fill with ball powders like AA-2230,
or what the heck, mildy compressed so the bullet is locked in place after crimping.
Ain't going anywhere with recoil battering in the magazine !
So long as the freshly loaded ammo has low standard deviation of velocity,
and it is not left baking in heat and humidity for years
and Elmer's Glue was not used instead of crimping the bullet in place,
A-OK.

I like compressed loads with extruded powders like H4895.
105% to 110% is perfect,
and remember that even as low as 60% fill works with H4895,
with or without filler, for reduced loads.

Glad I don't need to apologize to the gracious badboymelvin for piling onto Bob's opinion of the Allan Jones article.


.458 Winchester Magnum Perfection
In maxima potentia parvum spatium.
Id venit et vicit omnis.

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:

Glad I don't need to apologize to the gracious badboymelvin for piling onto Bob's opinion of the Allan Jones article.


.458 Winchester Magnum Perfection
In maxima potentia parvum spatium.
Id venit et vicit omnis.

You never have to apologise to me RIP - and thank you for all you do for THE MISSION!
I and everyone else here appreciates it.

Roger that, RIP.

I forgot to mention that a drop tube will give you an extra 2 or 3 grains of powder space when you are dealing with powder charges around 80 grains
in the .458 Winchester Magnum.

You will not notice powder compression on seating the bullet,
though I reckon it must still be considered compressed, by drop tube.

The Damnedocrats are still stinking up the USA.


.458 Winchester Magnum Perfection
In maxima potentia parvum spatium.
Id venit et vicit omnis.

Man oh Manischewitz !
A 14" twist is plenty fast for a 200-grain X-bullet that is no longer than 1.150" of copper,
sits .450" deep in the Blue Sabot that is 0.720" long (add about 10-thou for gas check under it, if used, upside down ?),
with sabot seated 0.620" deep in a 2.500"-long case,
sabot plus bullet and gas check, projectile OL about 1.460",
COL = 3.340".
60 grains of pistol powder under that ought to get it over 3000 fps MV
with about a 90% case fill/LR (+/- filler, a la carte)
with 100% powder burn
and about 50,000 psi.
Just guesstimating, standard SAAMI .458 Winchester Magnum.
If that works,
consider the 250-grain Nosler partition .458/.358 Accelerator for the .458 WIN+P+L, just a little longer than 3.340" COL.
Maybe the .358/ 225-grain TSX at Mach-3 ?

Pray to God that stinking Biden does not get away with it.
Fight the Damnedocrats to hell where they belong.

"The Cartridge Which Is Loved by Some, Loathed by Many, but Known by ALL"

https://www.africahunting.com/...-known-by-all.53891/

That is some interesting history from Shikari Kawshik Rahman, AH elite, with just a little

Searching there at AH website ...

https://www.africahunting.com/...india-hunting.92859/

... shows this image associated with India Hunting and the right honorable Kwashik Rahman:



Sure looks like Saeed in the wrong shoes, eh ?

Anyway, that thread is a goldmine of good and bad, honest opinion and phony poop, about the .458 Winchester Magnum.

One of our missionaries, crshelton, mentioned us there, when THE MISSION was only 162 pages, the mother of all .458 Winchester Magnum threads, now on page 219.

Some comments here about some of the blowhards there might be amusing,
since we have scared off the Lottite blowhards here,
and the thread there has gone dormant.

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:

Sure looks like Saeed in the wrong shoes, eh ?

It does look like Saeed.

quote:

Originally posted by Mike McGuire:

It does look like Saeed.

Even has an AR.COM logo cap on his head, popular in India too.

Caption below the photo in the photo gallery there:

"India Hunting
Kawshik Rahman Nov 18, 2019
Like Reactions:Velo Dog"

Jim Carmichael reported in a late 90a or very early 2000s Outdoor Life that the reason for Winchester “squib loads” was the Winchester automated line at the time threw powder outside the case as it moved down the line.

LHeym500,

Buy a donkey for reminding us of that.
What happened was a transition from Republican-type QA to Damnedocrat-type QA.
Through socialism, the ammo factory went to hell.
Breaks lasted 59 minutes of every hour, every shift, with looting and rioting for fun and felony at the plant.
Damnedocrat politics as usual.

The legendary .458 Winchester Magnum cartridge was never a problem until sabotaged by the Winchester ammo factory.
The Legend has shaken off that sad episode like a Rottweiler tossing a rat.

The .458 Winchester Magnum does it all, without peer for game of any size.
It is fun to recreate the ballistics it evolved from.
450 NE is too easy.
It beats the .458 Lott in the same action length.
The hallowed British and American BPCR ballistics are fun and easy.
It is time to take it back to its origins,
the Kentucky Rifle,
forerunner of the British muzzleloading "Express Rifle."
How about a .40-cal roundball in a sabot at about 1900 fps using Trail Boss ?
Ballistics like Davy Crockett's first rifle, for squirrels and such.

A Trail Boss primer, with cast bullets:

A happy camper's load from another forum,
using a Ruger with 24" barrel, subsonic with a Lee FN 500-ish-grain cast bullet, sized to about .459" to .460" diameter,
agrees well with the Hodgdon data above.
St.dev. of 3.6 fps for 5 shots is quite nice:

Dang if they don't sell Trail Boss by the 2-pounder jug about a gallon in size !
It is light and fluffy, looks like tiny Cheerios:





1. Thompson Center "Shockwave" .45 "Green Sabot" with .400-cal./ 200-grain ballistic-tipped cup & core chubby.
O.D. of the loaded sabot is 0.457".

2. Harvester Premium .45-cal "Baby Blue Sabot" with .400-cal/ 200-grain HP cup & core.
O.D. of the loaded sabot is 0.455".

3. TC Green Sabot and MMP Tan Sabot with .40-cal balls, 0.395" actual diameter, and weight of ball is 94 grains.
O.D. of the loaded .45-cal sabots, both are 0.452".

4. MMP .45-cal Blue Sabot with a 0.355"/ 125-grain Barnes TAC-XP, monometal copper HP.
O.D. of the loaded sabot is 0.458".

I am keeping an open mind for the 94-grain roundball of soft lead in a .45/.40 sabot.
Getting interested in the 9mm pistol bullets in .45/.35 sabots too.
Finally, I have a possible use for 9mm pistol bullets !

87-grain aluminum, moly-coated, .458-caliber bullet from 4sigmabullets.com:





Was Trail Boss ever made by Alliant ?
It has a Hodgdon label now.

The 87-gr bullet load data might work with the 94-grain ball in a sabot.

Then I could work my way up to 147-gr FN hardcast 9mm pistol bullet in a sabot,
like the one Phil Shoemaker used to kill a brown bear with his 9mm pocket pistol.
Buffalo Bore's "9mm +P Outdoorsman" Hard Cast FN 1100 fps.
Phil had to kill the bear with his pocket pistol, in defense of human life and property, his and his fishing clients,
the latter husband and wife having smartly hit the grass 3 feet from the bear,
clearing a shooting lane for Phil, 8 to 10 feet from the bear.

Think of it, the SAAMI .458 Winchester Magnum might function as the perfect "Kodiak Squirrel Rifle"
while keeping pressures modest, COL 3.340" limited, with 24" barrel, with a magazine full
of 500-grainers at 2200 fps
or 480-grainers at 2300 fps
or 450-grainers at 2400 fps
or 400-grainers at 2500 fps
or 350-grainers at 2700 fps
or 300-grainers at 2900 fps
or 250-grainers at 3000 fps.

Top off the rifle by chambering a single sabot-loaded 9mm/147-gr Hard Cast at 1100 fps, subsonic for squirrels.

Phil Shoemaker does not recommend this as routine,
but as Forrest Gump said, "..it happens.":



Above view of bullet entry and exit of body cavity of boar brownie, looking down at skinned back of bear (dorsal, midspine area).
5 rapid shots at 10 feet or less, bear thrashed and ran, sixth shot at 20 feet range and bear dropped and died.
I wonder if it was a spine hit ?

I hope someone uses these bullets in a 45-70. 3K fps? Squirrel load!

boom stick,

I figgered you'd like those aluminum bullets.
Here is the Trail Boss data for the .45-70 Govt.
Does same as .458 Winchester Magnum but with 2 grains less powder in the .45-70:



Bullets are about a dollar apiece for plinkers.
I am banking on a sabot load with a 9mm hard cast FN being much cheaper and more effective on charging squirrels.

Thread Dormant? Never. See anybody else doing this amount of work expanding on the knowledge base? Nope.
Carry on.

I'm not planning sabot loads, but I am looking for more 300gr TSX's or TTSX's. At close to 3000 fps and sub-moa... Have done that a few times using 82 grains of H4198. But... for hunting I have a very good load of that 300 TSX at 2768 for three into sub-MOA from 75 grains H4198 + WLRM primers.

That was to have been my "bear" and everything else load but I ran very low on those 300s so opted for a 350 Speer at 2500. Not as accurate though.

I'm hoping soon to find more of the 300 TSX's on this side of the border. They also worked very well in my former #1 in the .45-70 LR at about 2650 fps.

Bob
www.bigbores.ca

Dennis,

Jah, I meant this thread:

https://www.africahunting.com/...-known-by-all.53891/

... is dormant by comparison to THE MISSION.
It is fun to critique the blowhard replies.
OP is quite reasonable.
He noted that in the 1960's and 1970's, client hunters avoided the Winchester brand ammo for the .458 Winchester Magnum.
They used Remington brand ammo with perfect satisfaction.

Bob,

Your moderate 300-gr TSX load is a "load for the books" for sure.
Muzzle energy is like Saeed's .375/404J or a .375 Weatherby.
You really do not need to step it up to .378 Weatherby, even if you can.
And that reminds me of your latest blog on BC, good reading, thanks.

Hopefully Phil Shoemaker will tell us if the little 147-g hard cast FN passed through the spinal cord of that bear.

Anyway, there is plenty good reason to favor a similar bullet for a squirrel stopper capable of defensive use in case of ambush by a bear.

I have been wanting to try a sabot load in the .458 Winchester Magnum, the most versatile big game rifle extant.
Recoil like a rimfire .22 LR.

I have a Lee mould on hand for a .358"/ 158-gr Semi-wadcutter GC.

"Lee Double Cavity Mold produces a .358 diameter 158 grain Semi Wad Cutter nose bullet
suitable for cartridges like 38 Special, 357Mag, etc. Handles included."

MOLD DC C358-158SWC

Heck, won't need a gas check inside a sabot, no paint, no lube at all,
and I could even turn the bullet backwards,
shoot base first.
This would make it more stable, CG forward, and attention getting on entry of hide.
If I cast it in BHN-25 it might even weigh 147 grains, and I have a .356" sizer.

OOH OOH
This one from Lee looks ideal for my purposes, more like nose shape preferred by Ross Seyfried,
more like the Buffalo Bore "Outdoorsman" bullet, an ogived FN:

MOLD DC 358-158-RF
MidwayUSA has a 6-cavity in stock:

The "third handle" on that baby is for working the sprue plate. 6-cavity block handles sold separately.

I have two excuses for casting some bullets now,
.36-cal/ 150-ish-grain pistol bullets and .46-cal/ 600-ish-grain rifle bullets, Lee and N.O.E.,
for squirrel and bear, all of them.

The .461"/ 579-gr "Big Blue" from Accurate Molds at about 1400 fps is going after venison next weekend, I am well supplied with that bullet.

I wonder what velocity I can get from those pills in my 2-inch-barreled .357 Rem.Mag. pocket peacemaker ?

I cannot resist. On page 2 of this thread:

https://www.africahunting.com/...-known-by-all.53891/

After some backslapping and gladhanding of the Shikari who wrote the OP article for the thread,
the backslapper said this (My editorial comments in red.) :

quote:

"Now , back to guns ! The only way l see someone successfully making the .458 Win Mag into a good gun is by using lighter monometal solids to handload their own ammo... Think 465 grain cutting edge monolithic meplat brass Solids .
A-Square used the 465-grain "Monolithic" round-nosed brass solid in the 1990's,
in both the .458 Win.Mag. and the .458 Lott.
Backslapper is mixed up on CEB weights for their FN brass "Safari Solids."
According to my research , Terry Irwin and Mike LaGrange are the only guys who actually spoke highly of the .458 Win Mag .
Some research he did, alright !!!
WHAT ABOUT RON "MAHOHBOH" THOMSON ? !
He preferred the .458 Winchester Magnum for the thousands of elephants he culled in governmental management programs. Probably the biggest bag attributable to any one man.
RICHARD HARLAND ? !
FINN AAGAARD ? !
PHIL SHOEMAKER ? !
Even HARRY SELBY favored a .458 Winchester Magnum when his .416 Rigby was being restored !!!
Terry handloaded with 500 gr FMJ round nose solids . Mike used 500 grain Hornady DGS for the elephant culls in the '80s .
Zowie ! Mike Lagrange was using the Hornady DGS in the 1980's ? That bullet was not available until well into the next century !
Is that how he killed his 6000 elephants on control work in Zimbabwe ?
He must have used time travel to get those for his .458 Winchester Magnum handloads.
That takes stones !!!
BTW , l got three rounds of .460 WBY MAG for ya to try when you come to the states . Will that do ?

That is how things devolved after the OP article by the Shikari.
Best tidbits from the Shikari:

The old British ban on .45-caliber firearms and ammo (circa 1905 we have established) stayed on the books even after Indian Independence.
Whether it was enforced is questionable, but our Shikari says it was not until 1964 that .458 Winchester Magnum ammunition and rifles
were allowed to enter India through customs.
He noted the available factory ammo brands during the period 1964 to 1970 included Winchester, Remington-Peters, and Hornady !
He noted that he had witnessed failures with FMJ "solids" made by Winchester and Hornady !
They deformed at the nose and penetrated poorly on gaur, the one-ton bovine.
Never a problem with Remington FMJ solid bullets !
Clients avoided Winchester factory ammo post 1964 in favor of Remington !

AH HA !
Maybe the same folks who killed the Pre-'64 M70 Winchester also screwed up ammo for the .458 Winchester Magnum !!!
But they may have got started on their sabotage a bit earlier.
It was the same Winchester problem with the .458/ 500-gr FMJ solid that caused Jack Lott's second shot to fail at penetration, in 1959,
after his first shot with the .458/ 510-gr RN soft nose went into the paunch of the cape buffalo.
Any faster MV from the rifle would not have helped.
It would have made the mushrooming FMJ "solid", round nose bulge and fishtail and tumble even worse !!!
MV of 2150 fps from Jacks' .458 Winchester Magnum was too much for that bullet !!!
Yes they were doing that with 500-grain FMJ bullets in 1955, in the 25"-barreled M70, with non-compressed loads, 50K psi,
before the 1956 commercial release of the .458 Winchester Magnum.

Seems strange the worst failures I have witnessed have been with the Remington 458Win ammo, so bad I only shot pigs & Dingo's with them in the end !

I like Remington ammo most of the time but not in the 458Win, these cartridges were from the 90's, I have one or two here some where & I'll dig them out.

The Winchester loads always work fine, soft or solids.

Rem soft next to Woodleigh soft both out of Buffalo .

Sarg;

Is the Remington 500gr from a factory load and the 500 Woodleigh a handload?

Bob
www.bigbores.ca

Yes that is right, would have been one of Bob Penfolds reloads with the Woody !

Even the Rem Solids were crap, bending & deforming coming out at weird angles, I had one or two of them as well but can't find them now, been a while.

Back in the day I was going to write to Remington to ask why they made their DG bullets so poorly, so dangerous for the user not the game ?

Sarg,
Buy a donkey for THE MISSION.
Ol'Shikari did claim that the Remington FMJ solids were better than the Winchester FMJ solids in the 1960's.
That Remington soft is trying to act like a solid and doing a very poor job of it.
Goes to show how things can change over the decades.
Factory loads do need to be field tested,
but even so, the next batch may have gone Democrat.

Any flies on the .458 Winchester Magnum have been due to bad bullets, bad factory load QA, or BS smeared on it by the Lottite Commercial Cabal, Inc.

A famous .458 Winchester Magnum proponent is Ron "Mahohboh" Thomson.
Look at the rear sight on his rifle in this cover art from his book. It is an M70 AFRICAN, .458 Winchester Magnum.
This is artistic license as Ron Thomson primarily used a Browning FN .458 Winchester Magnum from 1960 onward.

"Mahohboh" is the name given to him by an Mlisi Bushman tracker named Sumbe.
It is an honorific meaning "The Great Slayer of Elephants."



I have a first edition with author's signature.




.458 Winchester Magnum Perfection
In maxima potentia parvum spatium.
Id venit et vicit omnis.

It goes to show you, real men wear shorts.

boom stick,

Yep, real men wear short pants when hunting elephant,
and they prefer the .458 Winchester Magnum over the .458 Lott.

On page 17 of this thread the entire article on Karl Bosselmann's sabot load experiments with the .458 Winchester Magnum was presented.
A review of that book review:

Using homemade sabots and Hornady FMJ RN .308"/ 220-gr bullets, he was able to do well over 4000 fps,
with 63 grains of IMR-4227.
Six 5-shot groups averaged about 5 MOA for grouping at 60 yards.
He was using a 1:14" twist and should have been using a 1:10" twist, maybe ?



Karl's homemade sabot with a 220-grain bullet in .458 Winchester Magnum:



One of his earlier versions of the sabot:



Improved version:



His sabots were Machined from plastic rod, and were pretty heavy, about 32.4 grains,
added to 220-grain .308-caliber bullet, projectile weight was about 252.4 grains.
His sabot for a .375-cal/ 300-gr bullet weighed 33.7 grains, 333.7-gr total.



IMR-3031 produced no more velocity with the 300-gr saboted bullet than with a full-caliber 400-gr bullet load.



With the .308-cal/ 220-gr saboted bullet, IMR-4227 was the Goldilocks powder for velocity,
+ 4000 fps in two different Ruger No. 1 rifles,
see footnote (*) below:



So, he is saying a second Ruger No. 1 with .0005" greater groove diameter and longer throat produced higher velocity with the sabot load.
Whatever !
Maybe a smoother entire interior of barrel ?

A prototype sabot with 220-grain bullet, photo emphasizes possible need for faster twist:





I have hopes that a .358"/158-gr hard cast FN bullet in a 1:14" twist will be more accurate, at 1100 fps, for pesky squirrels and troublesome bears.
The commercially available "Blue Sabot" by MMP might be the Goldilocks sabot for this application, weighs about 11.7 grains,
and boocoo pistol powders and filler can do 1100 fps with that combo.

Hey ! We have .458"/ 250-grain monometals for + 3000 fps work in the .458 Winchester Magnum.
That's another reason why it is so important to concentrate on getting 9mm Parabellum ballistics out of the sabot loads for the .458 Winchester Magnum.
For brain shots on squirrels while hunting in bear country, aye.

Might start with 10 grains of Trail Boss and see if I need to work up or work down,
to get 1100 fps with a 158-grainer in a "Blue Sabot."
Try a 40-cal., 94-grain, round ball in a "Tan Sabot" too, while I am at it.

A fancied-up 1971 vintage of the "Plain Jane" rifle that Mahohboh started using in 1960:

BROWNING Hi Power Olympian Grade .458 Win Mag

Description:
ID # 6232
Make BROWNING
Model Hi Power Olympian Grade
Configuration Bolt Action
Gauge / Caliber.458 win mag
Price $8,500.00
Serial # 61259L71
Country of Origin Belgium
Barrel Length (in Inches) 24
Stock Configuration Fancy stock with Monte Carlo, Rose wood tip and grip and carved checkering
Receiver Finish Gray
Engraving Type Game Scene Engraving with African Big 5 scenes
Other Options Open sights
Condition Near PERFECT Condition, Appears unfired
Weight 8#0oz
Dimensions 13 1/2" LOP
Other Details Mfg 1971

SOLD ( For ONLY $8500 ? )

https://www.gunsinternational....cfm?gun_id=101396018

Is that 1971 Browning a pushfeed ?

Here is the 1963 action, definitely CRF:



Onward to page 220, with the next reply, for THE MISSION. Quotations from Mahohboh are fair game.

.458 Winchester Magnum Perfection
In maxima potentia parvum spatium.
Id venit et vicit omnis.