quote:

Originally posted by Cougarz:

quote:

Originally posted by Cold Trigger Finger:

quote:

Originally posted by Ray B:

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
If Jeff Cooper had ever thought about FOM versus FOR rifles, we might not have been plagued by the "Scout Rifle" concept.

Rip ...

I recall 15 or 20 years ago that Scout Rifles were all-the-rage. The primary difference I saw was having the scope mounted similarly to one mounted on 60 years old M94 carbines ahead of the action. Since I haven't heard anything about scout rifles in years, I'm guessing that they lost favor with the gunwriters because of decreased advertising dollars.

.

Scout rifles are basically just a carbine or Compact rifle. I don't get hung up in the minutia of a retired Gubmint employee's desire for greater fame . That used tax dollars to pay for his ammo to perfect his shooting skill.
But, he did have a good idea with the scout rifle.
I've killed more deer with much larger carts than are usually used. And more than most on here with 4-7,000 ft lb carts. So overkill isn't a term or thot process that I ascribe to. But the fact is , there ain't a necessary use for carts like the 270 WSM 26 Nosler ect or the pos fast 30s. Just noisey bothersome barrel burners. Unless someone is too light in the loafers to accurately shoot something like a 338 RUM ect .

When driving a 4 wheeler I pack my rifle on the handle bars. In a handle bar gun rack. If the rifle is longer than the 4 wheeler is wide , something is gonna get broke when the the barrel or butt smackes a tree.
Nice short rifle doesn't get all beat up.
Doesn't get hung up in the brush ect.
Super easy to have a nice little carbine in hand, slung or on or in a highway or off road vehicle or boat. Push comes to shove, its the convenient rifle that will be with to take the shot.

Well unless you've never hunted anywhere other than the "brush".
In wide open plains and mountains those useless fast cartridges come into their own.

Really, have you ever caribou hunted in Alaska?

quote:

Originally posted by Mike McGuire:
By the way Cold Trigger Finger you are talking to a bloke who had done a lot of spotlight shooting on kangaroos, pigs, foxes and rabbits with the 378

I've wing shot crows with a 458 .
But, remember, I said ( most) .

quote:

Originally posted by Mike McGuire:

quote:

Originally posted by Cold Trigger Finger:

quote:

Originally posted by Mike McGuire:
Who cares about the barrel life of the 26 Nosler, 6.5/300 Wby, 30/378 etc. Those that are barrel life minded don't own these sort of calibres but rather the 260 Rem or similar and the 308 or 30/06 and similar.

But what are those barrel burners going to accomplish that the 6.5 Creedmoor doesn't already do.
If a bigger or faster bullet is required , the next logical step up is the 338 caliber. Something like a RUM or Edge or Lapuua.

I guess it comes down to what you want. For me personally the 6.5 Creedmoor, 260 Rem, 7mm-08, 308 etc have zero interest.

This I can understand! Personal choice , self determination. !!

quote:

Originally posted by Cold Trigger Finger:
When driving a 4 wheeler I pack my rifle on the handle bars. In a handle bar gun rack. If the rifle is longer than the 4 wheeler is wide , something is gonna get broke when the the barrel or butt smackes a tree.
Nice short rifle doesn't get all beat up.
Doesn't get hung up in the brush ect.
Super easy to have a nice little carbine in hand, slung or on or in a highway or off road vehicle or boat. Push comes to shove, its the convenient rifle that will be with to take the shot.

Excuses, excuses ...
And thanks to all for THE MISSION SUPPORT.
Excellent progress.

Rip ...

Here is the first Whitworth .458 WIN that I ever aborted. Poor baby had an Alaskan-back-alley job.



After years of masquerading as a .458 Lott, though it had a standard .458 WIN action,
a Kentucky Gunsmith made the old gal honest.
The box was opened up toward front, but not quite as much as the Zastava factory does it.

So the box is a bit tight at the front.
Bullets have to be kept pointy, or they must be kept to a short COL if they are blunt, FN solids:



If this is done, it is a great fourshooter, 3 down in the box +1 in the chamber, failsafe feeder.
I can load the GSC HV to 3.540" in the .458 Lott case, which is a little longer than the maximum 3.450" COL preferred with .458 WIN brass.
Small advantage goes to the .458 Lott in this special "case."

But what a coincidence.
With pointy bullets that are longer than the GSC HV, a 3.540" COL can be loaded single-shot-style in my 3.4"-mag-boxed .458 WIN rifles.
It can be ejected as usual if not fired, clears the ejection port well.
And I am still best off with 3.340" COL for FN solids filling the box,
if I want to get a 3+1 fourshooter .458 WIN.

The Pre-'64 H&H action has a roomier box,
and will allow 3+1 capacity with any bullet, pointy or FN to COL of 3.585".

I am getting excited about a 7.0# .458 WIN,
with a MUZZLE BRAKE.
It can share the same KDF and thread protector
with the ol'gal above.
I used to call her "Warthog" for short but her full name is: Walterella "Warthog" Whitworth.
She may be fugly, but she's a keeper.

Rip ...

That looks like it's almost in the running with Phil's Ole Ugly or my Spruce King . For a less than beauty queen status. No pinky finger there.

IIRC Phil built Ol'Ugly in 1984, and published a story complete with photos of her in RIFLE #101 of 1985.
There was a bigger spread about her, full-color photos and more huntin' tales in RIFLE #208 of 2003: "Beauty and the Beast"
"Beast" may have referred to Phil's rifle, but "Beauty" did not refer to the rifle's owner, rather about the way the rifle performed, I reckon.

By 1984, independently of Phil, I owned a Ruger No.1 and Winchester M70 pushfeed, two .458 WIN rifles,
my first big bores, and the third was a 460 Wby "Deluxe" in same year.
I was ready for Missouri elephant attacks in 1984.
I blame Peter Hathaway Capstick for that.

Walterella The Fugly was built about 1992, in Alaska,
heavily influenced by Phil Shoemaker's Ol'Ugly I am sure,
as well as Finn Aagaard who was also not above fugly.
Finn went fugly earlier.

I met the Gunsmith in KY about 2003, and got Walterella's magazine box corrective surgery about the time of "Beauty and the Beast."
Oh, well, live and learn.
I would never rechamber another .458 WIN unless I just could not heppit any other way.
That is how the retrosexual Woodelle became the metrosexual Woodie.

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by Cold Trigger Finger:

quote:

Originally posted by Cougarz:

quote:

Originally posted by Cold Trigger Finger:

quote:

Originally posted by Ray B:

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
If Jeff Cooper had ever thought about FOM versus FOR rifles, we might not have been plagued by the "Scout Rifle" concept.

Rip ...

I recall 15 or 20 years ago that Scout Rifles were all-the-rage. The primary difference I saw was having the scope mounted similarly to one mounted on 60 years old M94 carbines ahead of the action. Since I haven't heard anything about scout rifles in years, I'm guessing that they lost favor with the gunwriters because of decreased advertising dollars.

.

Scout rifles are basically just a carbine or Compact rifle. I don't get hung up in the minutia of a retired Gubmint employee's desire for greater fame . That used tax dollars to pay for his ammo to perfect his shooting skill.
But, he did have a good idea with the scout rifle.
I've killed more deer with much larger carts than are usually used. And more than most on here with 4-7,000 ft lb carts. So overkill isn't a term or thot process that I ascribe to. But the fact is , there ain't a necessary use for carts like the 270 WSM 26 Nosler ect or the pos fast 30s. Just noisey bothersome barrel burners. Unless someone is too light in the loafers to accurately shoot something like a 338 RUM ect .

When driving a 4 wheeler I pack my rifle on the handle bars. In a handle bar gun rack. If the rifle is longer than the 4 wheeler is wide , something is gonna get broke when the the barrel or butt smackes a tree.
Nice short rifle doesn't get all beat up.
Doesn't get hung up in the brush ect.
Super easy to have a nice little carbine in hand, slung or on or in a highway or off road vehicle or boat. Push comes to shove, its the convenient rifle that will be with to take the shot.

Well unless you've never hunted anywhere other than the "brush".
In wide open plains and mountains those useless fast cartridges come into their own.

Really, have you ever caribou hunted in Alaska?

No not in Alaska...?

With old rifle optic technology, blazing velocity was kind of necessary to extend the range of doable game shots. Now that rifle optics and super high bc bullets are becoming the norm. At least for some . super high velocity isn't necessary to make consistent long range clean kills.
But , it does take Lots of practice. Practice made easier by not getting slammed every time the trigger is squeezed.
With a good shot the little 6.5 Creedmoor will cleanly kill big game much farther away than I will ever shoot . And I normally shoot caribou at between 300 and 400 yards.
Anyway.

The big 70

quote:

super high velocity isn't necessary to make consistent long range clean kills.

That was the trend during the last few yeas that my friend CP Donnelly was building precision rifles (up to about 10 years ago). the trend was away from 300 magnums in favor of 308 win with a twist that would handle the long bullets. The advantage of the magnums was the flatter trajectory, but it was minimized because the distance was known and trajectory was easily calculated. Other aspects of the rifle fell in favor of the less powerful cartridge.

Congratulations of reaching 70. I'll be doing so in less than a month.

quote:

Originally posted by Ray B:


Congratulations of reaching 70. I'll be doing so in less than a month.

70 Pages for this "Mission" that is!!!

As Elvis would say in Afrikaans, from South Africa, where he has been flipping burgers at a Whimpey's joint for the last 41 years:

Donkey! Buy a donkey!

Elvis Presley, Aretha Franklin Both Died on August 16 – 1977 and 2018 - Long Live the King and Queen.
The King of Rock'n'Roll and the Queen of Soul.



More Model 70 for page 70, and for the King of Cartridges, the .458 WIN, which is making as big a comeback as Elvis did in 1968.

The Standard Pre-'64 .30-06 action weighs 45.5 ounces.
The Featherweight Pre-'64 .30-06 action weighs 42.6 ounces.
That is 2.9 ounces lighter, achieved by use of aluminum alloy bottom metal starting in 1952 for the Featherweight.

The .300 H&H is made from the Standard by cutting away some steel, it will be lighter than 45.5 ounces. Much lighter if the two-piece trigger bow and floorplate unit are used to lighten it further.

Stock with Brown Precision "Pounder" with paint, pillars and pad: 24.0 ounces.

Barrel has to be a No.4 sporter of some sort.

This take-off CZ .458 WIN barrel with sights and integral recoil lug weighs 48.0 ounces at 25" length,
0.671" diameter muzzle underneath the barrel band, very close to a No.4 sporter contour:



A virgin barrel of No.4 sporter contour cut down at both ends to "featherweight knoxform" without the integral features,
but with recoil lug and sights added and chopped to 23.5" length might squeak by, for 7.0 pounds dry/empty rifle weight.
Add 2 ounces and 1.5" for the KDF muzzle brake,
which will rarely be detached, to prevent retinal detachment.

Rip ...

Taker-off barrel from 1990s Model 70. Weight 3 pounds. Length 22", 1" diameter from step, .75" at muzzle. It was handy but didn't do much for steadiness when firing. the 24" while not as handy in the brush is much more to my liking when shooting, especially when shooting full loads.

quote:

Originally posted by Cold Trigger Finger:
With old rifle optic technology, blazing velocity was kind of necessary to extend the range of doable game shots. Now that rifle optics and super high bc bullets are becoming the norm. At least for some . super high velocity isn't necessary to make consistent long range clean kills.
But , it does take Lots of practice. Practice made easier by not getting slammed every time the trigger is squeezed.
With a good shot the little 6.5 Creedmoor will cleanly kill big game much farther away than I will ever shoot . And I normally shoot caribou at between 300 and 400 yards.
Anyway.

Well it sounds good anyway. But it doesn't always work out in practice. Besides it doesn't take much to knock down a caribou.

You shoot crows with a .458 and then complain about recoil shooting a caribou?

It does work in practice and in hunting. I know because I do it . Moderate velocity relatively high bc bullets and modern intelligent reticle optics work great .
I don't complain about the recoil or blast or expense of barrel burners because I don't shoot them any longer. Haven't for quite a while now.

Well the world is made up of a lot more animals and locations than just caribou in Alaska. So I'll stick to my well proven "barrel burner" .300's in different locals and have fun too.

Now time to get back on topic.........

I did a solo caribou hunt in 1986, using a 340 Wby.
All three went down with one shot from the 340 Wby with 250-grain Nosler, 150 yards, 250 yard, 350 yards ... but that last one was the biggest one and at longest range.
He got back up after he went down, and required a second shot.

If I did it again, I would use the .458 WIN and the 400-grain HV.
I might not have had to shoot that third 'bou twice at 350 yards, had I been using The King of Carts, the .458 WIN.

Landing strip where my bushpilot left me for five days in November 1986:

First one-shot 'bou meat:

Second one-shot meat:

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
All three went down with one shot from the 340 Wby

I'm wondering how you got the caribou, standing a hundred yards apart to all stand in a line so that one shot could go through all three. But regardless, that is exceptional performance from any cartridge. I wonder if with a 458 you could have gotten another to line-up at 450 yards to make it four with one chot.

Third 'bou, two-shot meat:



The backstrap of the Freedom Arms .454 Casull SA revolver resting on the 'bou's back is for scale,
it was not used to finish the 'bou.
It was backup for bears, combat fishing, etc.

I felt like a real sourdough after that little bit of survival training/vacation.

Sure would love to try that with the .458 WIN, 400-grain HV at 2500 fps MV, and a Nikon SlugHunter.

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by Ray B:

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
All three went down with one shot from the 340 Wby

I'm wondering how you got the caribou, standing a hundred yards apart to all stand in a line so that one shot could go through all three. But regardless, that is exceptional performance from any cartridge. I wonder if with a 458 you could have gotten another to line-up at 450 yards to make it four with one chot.

Ray B,

Thanks for The MISSION support.

I should have been more clear, like all the politicians say, "let me be clear."
The three caribou were not all in a line and were not downed with a single bullet.
It was like this:
Bang-Bang-Bang-oops-Bang.
That third 'bou had to be shot twice.
Four shots altogether, then my rifle was empty and the caribou were scattering.
Otherwise I could have taken four of them as an Alaska resident back then.
Subsistence meat for the winter coming.
It made some great summer sausage, breakfast sausage, burgers, chili, etc.

Rip ...

Ray B,

Also thanks for posting the weight of the Winchester M70 .458 WIN take-off barrel. 22" long and 3 lbs!
Same as the skinnier CZ 25" barrel with integral features.

I am now thinking of chronographing the CZ barrel as a 25-incher then cutting it down for another check on velocity loss per inch of shortening below 25".
There was not much loss from 27.5" to 25" with a Shilen barrel chop of 2.5":

Only 10 fps loss of MV for each inch of barrel loss using 500-gr Hornady RNSP bullet and 71.0 grains of BENCHMARK powder.
This my "benchmark load":
2157 fps from 27.5" barrel
2131 fps from 25.0" barrel

The MV loss was only 6 fps per inch of barrel loss using the Hornady Superformance 500-gr DGS factory load:
2137 fps from 27.5" barrel
2122 fps from 25.0" barrel

A CZ has the same 0.459" groove diameter and 1:14" twist as the Shilen.
A 2.5" chop from 25" to 22.5" would be interesting,
if only I could bear the pain of such an amputation ...

Rip ...

Rip ...

I think Elvis would have hunted with a Weatherby

https://www.elvispresleynews.com/elvis-guns/

"Elvis loved guns of all types. He was known to shoot at TV sets if Robert Goulet appeared on screen."



Before the TV remote control device there was the Elvis method.

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:

Before the TV remote control device there was the Elvis method.

Rip ...

In the mid-50s I lived in So Cal and on the news one night there was a local "situation". An elderly-to-me man (probably about 60) was reported to the police by his neighbors. He was wondering outside his home carrying a double barrel shotgun and mumbling "I finally got her". the presumption of the neighbors and police was that he had finally had it with his wife and had shot her. This was before SWAT and M16s, even before the police trashed their revolvers. The two officers drove up and contacted the man. He showed them into his home and said "I finally got that woman" - as I recall it was an advertisement involving a woman that was particularly annoying- at any rate, the man pointed to his television set, which had taken two 2-shot magnums from the fellows 12 ga shotgun. Having happened about 60 years ago I doubt that it could be found on the internet, but it made a memorable picture for a youngster. As I recall there were no charges pressed but he was referred to a local counselor for review.

Ray B,

I never would have Googled this except for your MISSION SUPPORT:



11/17/2010 1:07 PM PST
Man Shoots TV Over Bristol Palin's 'Dancing With the Stars' Routine
A SWAT team posted up outside a home in Wisconsin yesterday -- after a shotgun toting 67-year-old man blasted his TV because he was so enraged with Bristol Palin's performance on "Dancing with the Stars."
http://www.tmz.com/2010/11/17/...consin-steven-cowen/

Local authorities claim Steven Cowan (left) told officers that he felt Palin was not a good dancer and that she was only on the show because of her famous mother.

Officials say Cowan was so pissed after Monday's show -- that he fired at his television set and then aimed the gun at his wife ... though she managed to escape the house.

The SWAT team surrounded the home -- but negotiators were able to talk Cowan into surrendering early Tuesday morning. Authorities claim Cowan suffers from bipolar disorder.

Cowan was charged with 2nd degree reckless endangerment and could face up to 10 years in prison if convicted.

Rip ...

Speaking of fugly, remember Ross Seyfried was doing it in the early to mid 1980s, with his Zambian PH rifle:

His was a 7.5 pound, 24"-barreled, .416 Remington Magnum, Remington M700:



I can finally beat Ross Seyfried at something.
A less fugly, more powerful, lighter weight rifle:
A 7.0 pound, 23.5"-barreled, .458 WIN, Pre-'64 Winchester M70.

Rip ...

quote:

Speaking of fugly, remember Ross Seyfried was doing it in the early to mid 1980s, with his Zambian PH rifle:

I like that rifle! I also enjoyed the article when it was published and still have a copy of it. I might not choose a Remington action though simply because I'm not sure I trust their extractor but the two I own have never given me any problems.

I can appreciate what Ross was trying to achieve. A simple, durable, fairly lightweight rifle, just what a PH/guide needs. A handy tool that can take the day to day abuse.

I would love to see a few more like that posted here on AR.

GUNS & AMMO/DECEMBER 1990: "A PROFESSIONAL'S RIFLE"

RIFLE 185, SEP-OCT 1999: "A PROFESSIONAL'S RIFLE"

Same title for both articles.
Ross Seyfried was starting to repeat himself.
Hence the need to develop a new schtick: "The .458 Winchester Defiance" schtick.

Rip ...

Need to mount a Nikon SlugHunter on CZ 550 Magnum .458 WIN?



This will get us to page 71 and beyond, for THE MISSION.

Rip ...

I have been accumulating parts over the years, and it is time to do something with them, inspired by the thread about CZ 550 Magnum extension rings.
Seems all the extension rings are too high for my tastes, both dollars and inches, and actually might not be as secure and strong an attachment as
something the Bubba Gunwerkes can come up with.

Here is a prototype model on a 470 Mbogo BBK-02, impeccable for strength and function, used some stainless steel bases from Virgin Valley:



The bead of J-B Weld is visible along both sides of base, where it meets the rifle.
This is "bespoke" quality craftsmanship.

Notice "bespoke-quality" J-B Weld beads at front and rear bases: