The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Rifles Big Bores 458 winchester magnumGo | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
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Good choices RIP, and I agree... except mine looks like this: .22LR (CZ) shoots the CCI Velocitor 40gr HP very accurately to 200 yds 9.3 x 62 Mauser compares favorably with the H&H shooting a 286 NP at 2622 and the 320 Woodleigh at 2460. .458 WM (normal Ruger #1) well... you know all about that! Bob www.bigbores.ca "Let every created thing give praise to the LORD, for he issued his command, and they came into being" - King David, Psalm 148 (NLT) | |||
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Yep, the ultimate. The .458 WIN Ruger No.1 was my first "big bore" in 1984. I was ignorant in trading that one off. By hook or by crook I will have another one of those to accompany me to my end, with my boots on.  Rip ... | |||
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Bob expand on this we have about 10 9.3's scattered among the immediate stradling family hope I am not missing out on great loads for those rifles by the way your load development work on the 458 win mag has appreciably influenced our loading and shooting of the family's 8 458 win mag, thanks much for that -you are / have been a few years ahead of most folks on things 458 win mag -- and thanks for that from all of us that use your data-- and once every few days a post LOVING THE BIG BANG -comes to my email and I learn a little bit from each one -- THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR THAT Anyway it matters not, because my experience always has been that of---- a loss of snot and enamel on both sides of the 458 Win---- | |||
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Anyway it matters not, because my experience always has been that of---- a loss of snot and enamel on both sides of the 458 Win---- | |||
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Yep, I once was ignorant, but Bob Mitchell informed my opinion on the .458 WIN. Amazing guy to be about 83 years of age and still loving the big bang. And still passing along the good handloading poop. I have a CZ 550 Medium Full Stock that is a bugholer with factory light bullets, Norma Vulkan 232-grainer. I could use some heavy bullet handloading tips too. Rip ... | |||
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JUST in case you have not noticed you are not so bad at loads and loading DATA yourself RIP Anyway it matters not, because my experience always has been that of---- a loss of snot and enamel on both sides of the 458 Win---- | |||
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a Born-Again-.458-WINner, Anyway it matters not, because my experience always has been that of---- a loss of snot and enamel on both sides of the 458 Win---- | |||
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Amen! That 9.3x62mm Mauser has a leade-only throat, according to the CIP drawing. The distance from start of leade to bore diameter: 9.3x62mm Mauser = 28.00 mm .458 WIN = 28.32 mm That does not hurt performance of either cartridge. Helps explain the power and accuracy achieved by each, all out of proportion to size of case capacity. Ditto the 10.75x68mm Mauser where the leade-only throat is actually longer in the leade (28.40 mm) than the .458 WIN. There is a precedence here. Mauser used long, leade-only throats before Winchester used leade-only throats on the .458, .338, and .264 Win.Mags, with varying leade angles. The .30-06 has a leade-only throat. The 9.3x64mm Brenneke has a leade-only throat of same 28.00 mm length of leade as on the 9.3x62mm Mauser. Same angle too, 0*21'29". That is a shallower angle than the .458 WIN. The leades on those two 9.3mm carts are proportionally narrower at base but proportionally longer in length than on the .458 WIN, versus bullet diameter. Just some trivia, for THE MISSION. Rip ... | |||
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In 2008 CZ advertised the twist on their 9.3x62mm rifle as being 1:9.5". Ignorantly I accepted that as reported. I had egg on my face after checking my barrel and finding a 1:14" twist. CIP twist for the 9.3x62mm Mauser is 1:360mm = 1:14.17". I am wondering how good that twist is with heavy bullets? It is great with 232-grainers. 1:14" is same twist as standard on the .458 WIN. The Norma Reloading Manual data for 9.3x62 show a 325-grain Oryx at 2228 fps max from a 24" barrel of 1:14-1/6" twist. That is with 60.2 grains of Norma URP, WLRM primer, less than or equal to 3900 bar/56,564 psi, and COL of 3.228". Could Bob be wildcatting the 9.3x62 LongCOL? Check his blog: www.bigbores.ca Posted by bigborefan on February 9, 2019 ... The 9.3 x 62 “Mauser”: The quotation marks are to indicate that the 9.3 x 62 doesn’t have “Mauser” as part of its official nomenclature; that has been added in some cases to indicate it was first chambered by Otto Bock, a Berlin gunsmith, in the famed Mauser ’98 action in 1905. It was conceived and designed from the get-go to provide a rifle and cartridge capable for both hunting and defense in the hands of European settlers of East Africa. There, it gained its admirable reputation for cleanly dispatching anything big and threatening, along with the scores of so-called “plains game”. I own one: a Tikka T3 Lite with a clip magazine that hold three stacked, and a 22.4″ barrel in a composite black stock. The barrel is match-grade by Sako. It is very accurate and fast. The action is one of the smoothest — perhaps THE smoothest — that I’ve ever owned in any bolt-action rifle. From personal experience in the development of handloads from 232s to 320s, I see no need for anything else in medium-bore rifles. 4300+ ft-lbs is attainable from the heaviest bullets which easily places it in the class of the “regular” .375s, and slightly ahead of the “regular” .338s. Now for some specifics — these are five hunting loads: 232gr Oryx @ 2450 fps/3092 ft-lbs (RL-15 – mild — for deer and wolf). 3 go into .625″ and 5 into MOA. 286gr Hornady @ 2414 fps/3700 ft-lbs (RL-15 — universal use at medium range. 3 in .625″). Terminated a wounded black bear at close range. Bullet held together, took out three vertabrae and exited). 250gr AccuBond @ 2714 fps/4088 ft-lbs (RL-17 — shoots 3 into 0.75″.) Killed a nice bear at 85 yds with single shot. 286gr Partition @ 2622 fps/4365 ft-lbs (RL-17 — shoots 3 into .875″) Killed a good black bear at 68 yards with one shot. Bullet retained 211 grs/74%. 320gr Woodleigh @ 2424 fps/4175 ft-lbs (RL-17 — shoots 3 into 1/2″ — same group at 100 as the 232gr load.) At 2464 fps = 4314 ft-lbs, but not as accurate. Have yet to kill something with this bullet. As a one bullet load for anything to 500 yards, it would be the 286gr Nosler Partition that produces over 1800 fps and 2100 ft-lbs at that range. I really can’t think of anything better among mediums when all matters are objectively considered. Til the next on Big Bores for bears… Shalom BOB MITCHELL RL-17 is a compact and energetic powder. We are adults here. Maybe Bob will share the charge weight and COL of his 320-grain load? I assume his Tikka with 22.4" barrel has a 1:14" (360mm) twist? Outstanding with the entire range of bullet weights, it would seem. Rip ... | |||
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Bob's current .458 WIN is a Ruger No.1 Tropical, 1:14" twist, 24" barrel, ~9.25# dry weight:  Bob taking it easy with his .45-70 LT Ruger No.1-S, 1:20" twist, 22" barrel if like most, ~7.25# dry weight:  I had not realized that Bob was a leftie. His experiments with long-throating a .45-70 showed that it could very nearly equal a SAAMI .458 WIN. And the .458 WIN LongCOL can certainly beat a SAAMI-throated .458 Lott. Rip ... | |||
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At the risk of appearing as though I'm speaking for Bob Mitchell (which I would never be dumb enough to try), since this information is already posted by him, Bob loads his Tikka 9.3x62 to a COL of 3.37" so not "wildcatted" by much! The key to top ballistics in this cartridge is, as Bob found, and you noted RIP, RL-17 powder. Below are three links to Bob's blog, where he lays out his loads and results: https://bigborefan.wordpress.c...upreme-loads-part-1/ https://bigborefan.wordpress.c...s-the-competition-2/ https://bigborefan.wordpress.c...trospect-first-part/ At the time I began corresponding with Bob, I was using 2000-MR powder and thinking my choice was the best. Little did I know, Bob Mitchell had already maximized the performance of this cartridge just like he had the .458 Win. After learning what he was doing with RL-17, I began trying his loads, and eventually found that he was quite correct when he said that this powder was the best one. In my own testing, I came to the conclusion that the top three performing powders in the 9.3x62 are in order: RL-17 > 2000-MR > CFE-223, which also happens to be the reverse order with respect to burn rate. There is not a whole lot of difference with top end loads with these three, but I think these powders are best utilized with RL-17 for heavy and medium weight bullets, and either 2000-MR or CFE-223 with lighter bullets for top velocities. I was able to match Bob's loading parameters and velocities using QuickLoad, and then predicted results for him with other bullets, which he came very close to matching. I shoot a CZ 550fs with a 20.5" barrel, and I have the advantage of being able to load to a longer COL of 3.45", which partly cancels out the shorter barrel length velocity loss. My best loads with RL-17 lag Bob's velocities by around 50-60 fps. RIP, you've educated me on my CZ barrel twist...I had no idea it was 1:14. | |||
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bcelliott, Thanks for that cut to the chase:  LongCOL and higher than standard pressure. Same way a .458 WIN LongCOL beats a SAAMI-restricted .458 Lott, at no more pressure than the .458 Lott restriction. We are adults here, and know how to start low and work up. My CZ 550 Medium FS has a 21.5" barrel, and no plastic parts. The original firing pin spring retainer was the tiny little C-clip. CZ-USA replaced it for free, with the double-nutter, no questions, no problems. Rip ... | |||
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Note: My pairing (above) of Bob's portrait pose along with the photo of his .458 WIN suggests that he should be named the first Mr. 458 WIN. Mr. 458 WIN is to Mr. Universe as Ms. 458 WIN is to Miss Universe. For THE MISSION. Rip ... | |||
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RIP, your Quickload data is a helpful reminder that anomalies sometimes occur with rifles and that care must be taken to load up slowly toward some max loads.
A couple of notes are in order: 4300 foot-pounds is basically the factory power level of the 375 H&H. Doing that with a case that is about 17 grains smaller than the 375H&H (about 20% smaller!) and 1 caliber thinner can only be called "pushing the envelope" or hot. For perspective, these loads are about 3000 foot-pounds above anything on AmmoGuide, where most loads are 3800ft# and less for the 9.3x62. Now I am not disputing Bob's data or loads, I am only saying, "Be careful!" We're all grown-ups. Likewise, when I saw a load like the 375 Ruger loaded up over 5300 foot-pounds I can accept that as a fairly unique occurrence for some rifle, but I do not plan or hope to load a personal 375Ruger to that level. Here is what I wrote on AmmoGuide:
Atkinson (occasionally on this thread) does something similar with his 338's, reaching levels that I won't try to imitate. Hot is hot, and if the rifleman knows what they are doing, fine. I consider the 338WM a 4000ft# rifle, even if some people shoot a few hundred ft# above that. Likewise, I would not expect or rate a 308 above a 30-06 or approaching a 300mag, even if someone can shoot such a load safely. (E.g., I've seen quite a few apparently reputable loads of 308Win producing 3200 ft# with 150 and 168gn bullets in a 24in barrel! Ouch, that's hot.) I would rate the 308Win at about 2750-2800ft# (approximately 270W power), recognizing that this can be bettered in some/many rifles. +-+-+-+-+-+-+ "A well-rounded hunting battery might include: 500 AccRel Nyati, 416 Rigby or 416 Ruger, 375Ruger or 338WM, 308 or 270, 243, 223" -- Conserving creation, hunting the harvest. | |||
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WOW that got me reading up on the fantastic 9.3 x 62 in the world renowned encyclopedia Bob Mitchell's LOVING THE BIG BANG 303 BRITISH-- 9.3 X 62 GERMAN-- A 458 ALASKAN WATTS and for sniggels and giggles a browning push pull 22 lr Anyway it matters not, because my experience always has been that of---- a loss of snot and enamel on both sides of the 458 Win---- | |||
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Smoking hot body on that chick but what's with the "Mars Attacks" head? https://www.google.com/search?...mgrc=0aBoJHFBbwymyM: Even hotter is the rifle. How anyone could espouse a contraption like a Blaser over that rifle is beyond me.  | |||
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416Tanzan, You make some good points. Undeniably true. However, any honorable mention regarding risque 9.3x62mm "Mauser" loads and QuickLOADs goes to Bob and bcelliott. Bobbarrella the CZ 550 Magnum sixshooter of .458 WIN LongCOL is named for Bob with good reason. Yes, to any kids lurking about, don't try that 9.3x62mm wildcatting without adult supervision. Rip ... | |||
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 Much appreciated, for THE MISSION. Ms. Blaser: Naked above, fully "dressed" below. Rip ... | |||
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Back to considering the .458 Winchester Magnum Flanged, aka the ".458 WIN MF-er," to borrow some terminology from the .458 Winchester Magnum denial movement led by Ross Seyfried. Use the Starline .45-2.6" basic brass or whatever length of brass, short of Quigley's .45-110 Sharps Straight, that is required to equal the case capacity of the .458 WIN. Throat it like the .458 WIN, of course. LongCOL loading might allow it to match Quigley with paper-patched BP loads of 520-grain bullets, in a slow twist barrel. LongCOL loading with smokeless powder in fast twist barrels might allow use of the VLD subsonics from Lehigh Defense, and maybe even faster twist for supersonic with the ultra-heavy CEB Lazers. A reamer for the .458 WMF would clean up any .45-70 single-shot rifle able to handle the desired pressures, such as: Pedersoli/Uberti Sharps 1874 "Long Range" and "Hunter" replicas with 1:18" twist and barrel lengths of 28" to 34". BACO Winchester 1885 High Wall replica with 1:18" twist, barrel length 28". Ruger No.1-KS with 1:20" twist, 22" barrel length. Ruger No.1-S re-barreled with 1:8" twist of whatever length. Ruger No.1-S re-barreled with 1:14" twist of 28" length and hacksawed an inch at a time down to 18", chronographed along the way ... Equivalent to .458 WIN LongCOL, the .458 WMF would make a great shop mule for documenting .458 WIN LongCOL performance, and a "no flies on it" single-shot cartridge, i.e. a rimmed cartridge for the purist. Soon as I get my 83 year-old "relative" nursed back to health, or at least somewhat more independent, I will get on it. Or any inheritance  will be spent on hunting.  BTW, the .458 WMF reamer would also make a great reamer for extending the throat on about any .45-70 single-shot, creating a .45-70 LT similar to Bob's. An H&H-Coned-UP .45-70 LT would be just a hand-job away, using a T-handle, a .458 WMF reamer, some oil, a vise, and some elbow grease, for any careful hobbyist. Rip ... | |||
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Will put a dead primer in the bottom of a StarLine .45-2.6" basic case and size it in a .458 WIN die, measure length and water capacity. Then the neck diameter with a 500-grain TSX seated and lightly crimped at about 3.880" COL. Anything to keep the page count of this thread growing. .458 Winchester Magnum Flanged. Rip ... | |||
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 Rip ... | |||
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 https://www.starlinebrass.com/...nge-black-powder.cfm 45-100 Brass (.45-2.6) (Large Rifle primer) 45-100 Sharps 2.596 - 2.603 O.A.L. This is a .45-70 based case that is 2.6 inches long and is suitable for smokeless or black powder loads. When loading with black powder, annealing of mouth may be necessary to allow case to properly seal chamber due to lower pressures generated by these loads. Our case is produced very strong to withstand high pressure loads associated with smokeless hunting loads and since the only way to make brass harder is to work the material our only option is to leave them stiffer so the customers can anneal for specific application. See annealing procedure in Commonly Asked Questions, section #4. Status: Available Now Box of 250 ($257.00) FAQ section #4: Answer: 1.) Be aware this is not always necessary. Only if cases are extremely dirty and a lot of unburned powder is consistently found in chamber would you need to anneal. 2.) First place case in proper container filled with approximately 1 inch of water so head of case is submerged in water. (Reason is you only want to soften mouth of case and not head area as this can ruin strength at base and primer pocket where case must remain rigid to handle pressure.) 3.) Next heat case mouth (approx. top 1/2 inch of case) uniformly just to where it begins to turn a dullred and then knock over in water. A propane torch is usually used for heating device. MOST IMPORTANT: Remember if case gets too hot they are ruined and there is no way to make hard again. So, try a few out and get a feel for the proper color and softness required for your application. If they get bright red, you probably went too far. .................................................................................................... Yep. Any red glow is too far. Learn to watch for the color change of the brass that comes well before any red glow, spinning the case while propane-torch-heating it (power drill or screw driver with brass holder chucked), and dump the case in water as soon as the color change covers about 1/2-inch of the neck end of the case. John Barsness suggests holding the case in the flame of a candle, spinning it manually and dumping it before it gets too hot to hold at the base. Tedious, slow, but effective. Rip ... | |||
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A very cheap and easy wildcat to load. Just over a dollar per Starline 45-2.6 case. Kept down to 450 NE ballistics it will be nearly "everlasting" and surely would if BP loaded Quigley style. How about ".458-100 Winchester" which gets rid of the WTF and MF-ing abbreviations? Yep. That's it, the .458-100 WIN.  Rip ... | |||
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4 more posts and we move on to page 113, for THE MISSION: Change of nomenclature: The flanged .458 WIN LongCOL ballistic equivalent can be marked on the barrel as ".45-100 Winchester Magnum Everlasting" (.45-100 WIN ME) or simply "45-100" as that is all it is, a .45-100 2.6-Inch, but with the H&H-Coned-Up throat of the .458 WIN.  | |||
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Got a .45-70 you'd like to spice up a bit with .45-100 loads, but still be able to fire the ubiquitous .45-70? Just stamp "XX" over the "70" and stamp a "100" on the barrel and go to town with a .45-100 WIN ME reamer in your single-shot chamber. Rip ... | |||
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A 28"-barreled .45-70 Uberti "Hunter" model would be perfect for the .45-100 WIN ME:  | |||
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Another natural is this Pedersoli .45-70 "Long Range" for conversion to .45-100 WIN ME:  Rip | |||
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Page 113? Coming up. Rip ... | |||
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New use for old parts:  This "Try Gun" will try different barrels. The .45-100 WIN ME is so close to the .458 WIN LongCOL in ballistics, that it will allow useful comparisons on the effects of barrel twist rate and barrel length changes. The above 30" barrel might be initially installed at 29" or 28" length and cut down to 20" in 1" or 2" increments, chronographing along the way. That is for this Pedersoli .45-70 take-off barrel of 1:18" twist. Same could be done with other twist rates, For THE MISSION. Rip ... | |||
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This is as short as I will go:  20" barrel looks funny on a Ruger No.1, same "ROL" as a bolt action with 16" barrel. Above is a .475 Linebaugh, a handgun cartridge in a "carbine," which is maybe not so strange. At least it is not a Blaser. Rip ... | |||
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Here is the prime candidate for first .45-100 WIN ME:  That would be a .45-70 Medium Sporter, but mine has a laminate stock, weighs 7.25 lbs dry/empty. Shades of Bob's .45-70 LT. I will be J-B-Welding the quarter rib to the barrel. This 1:20" twist barrel should be better with gentler cast bullet loads. Rip ... | |||
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Thank God for that! I would have stopped reading this thread long ago if it involved one of those abominations.  | |||
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When did you learn how to read? Guns and hunting | |||
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Ask'ed the Marine who uses a black felt pen to highlight the important passages!  | |||
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Hogbreath, General Yeager may not think that Todd has the right stuff, but obviously he can read if he is contributing to THE MISSION so well. You too can read. See how I can tell? As for your handle, I recommend Buffalo Trace as mouth wash.  Swish, gargle, and swallow. Rip ... | |||
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Hey now. I never said the General didn't think I had the right stuff. I just said making Yeager jealous of ones airborne exploits is a VERY TALL order!  Fully agree on the Buffalo Trace! Good stuff it is. HB would be a good ole boy to have a couple of drinks of it with.  | |||
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I'd gargle some Buffalo Trace with y'all anytime, and be proud to have ya call me Buffalobreath. Rip ... | |||
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https://www.google.com/amp/s/b...dvantage-part-5/amp/ RIP You are beating a dead horse. This guy killed the horse 8 years ago  577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
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And yet so many nonbelievers still exist. I am just a disciple of Bob, spreading the Gospel of Bob to the heathens that still abound. Verily, I say unto them: Believe! Hell, I was there! When Bob was near crucified for bringing the good news to this very website. All that is required for evil and ignorance to prevail is for good and learned men to say nothing, do nothing. I have repented of my sins of silence and inaction. Here is THE MISSION of The Church of the Dead Horse: Preach the Gospel of Bob!  And get this thread to 459 pages, thank you very much boom stick. From Bob:  Rip ... | |||
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