To re-create Bob's .45-70 LT by adding just 0.3" of extra free-bore to the standard .45-70 Govt. chamber:
That falls a little short of the .458 WIN SAAMI ballistics.
And, I do not have a throat-only reamer that will do that anyway.
If I gotta get a reamer, why not a full-blown approach, to duplicate both the case capacity and the throat of the .458 WIN?

At first blush the Starline .45-2.6" basic brass is the way to go.
Old Sharps .45-90 was 2.4" long, about equivalent to Bob's .45-70 LT: 2.105" case with 0.3" LongerCOL than the .45-70 Govt.

.45-75 Sharps Straight: 2.100"
.45-90 Sharps Straight: 2.400"
.45-100 Sharps Straight: 2.750"
.45-110 Sharps Straight: 2.870"
.45-120 Sharps Straight: 3.250"

.45-100 Ballard Straight: 2.810" (thick-walled brass and/or long and heavy bulleted?)

.45-100 Remington/Creedmoor Necked: 2.630" (a unique case with large rim and head diameters and thick-walled brass?)

.45-60 Winchester Straight: 1.890"
.45-75 Winchester Centennial (Necked, short and fat): 1.882"
.45-82, .45-85, .45-90 Winchester Straight: 2.394" case length for all
.45-90 Winchester High Velocity (survived into smokeless era with a lighter bullet, old cart, new name, straight): 2.394"
.45-120 Winchester Express (Necked, barely, light bulleted, BPE-style): 3.250"

What a mess of old BPCR lengths versus BP charges!

I cannot find an old .45-100 Winchester
or any .45-100-2.6" BPCR.
Is this a new convention by Starline to sort out the mess above?
Handy length to make a lot of shorter cartridges? And for necking down to .40-90 Sharps Necked-2.625", etc?

I am calling this brass the .45-2.6" Starline Basic.
Easiest use: The .45-100 Starline 2.6" (Straight)
or the .45-100 WIN ME ...


Rip ...

Q.: Does the .45-2.6" Basic Starline brass really have the same case capacity as the .458 WIN?

A.: It might be 2.9 grains of water greater.
If that is so, then reducing the length of brass by 0.070", to 2.530", would make it same.
Or, leave brass 2.600" long and use a 0.070"-thick, over-powder, card wad for handicapping purposes.
Thus the .45-100 WIN ME 2.6" can be fine tuned to ballistic equivalence with the .458 WIN LongCOL wildcat,
or even the SAAMI-restricted .458 Winchester Magnum.

Rip ...

According to the cartridge library in my version of QuickLoad (V.3.8), the .45-100 Sharps 2.6" case has a max case capacity of 87.00 grains. The drawing has a base diameter of .500" which is less than that of the .45-70 or .45-90 Sharps Straight cartridges, which have matching base diameters of .506". This is probably the reason for the smaller capacity for the 2.6" cartridge in the QL library. Incidentally, the .45-90 has a case capacity of 93 grains, less than the .458 Win by only 2 grains.

If Starline makes the 2.6" case with the standard .506" head, then RIP, your capacity estimate would be correct.

bcelliott,

Thanks for ringing THE MISSION bell.
That QuickLOAD data says "nonstandard" and may represent Old Sharps brass, and all the variations unknown ...
The 6th Edition Ammo Encyclopedia by Michael Bussard, Blue Book Publications, Inc. (2017) has drawings of the .40- to .44-caliber "Necked"
and the .40- to .50-caliber "Straight" Sharps cartridges.
The only 2.600" straight case is that of the .50-100 Sharps.

The .45-75 Sharps (2.100") has a head/base diameter above the rim of 0.5055". Shades of the .45-70 Govt!

The .45-90 Sharps (2.400") and the .45-100 Sharps (2.750") both are 0.500" diameter at the base.
Both supposedly used .457-caliber/550-grain bullets, at 1360 fps and 1435 fps respectively.
That's according to this book.

Mr. Quigley's .45-110 Sharps Straight (2-7/8" or 2.870") also is shown to have had a 0.500" base diameter, with .457-cal/550-grainer at 1510 fps.

The Starline .45-2.6" Basic is made to same specs at base as the SAAMI .45-70 Govt.: Standard data!

My case capacity measurement of 97.2 grains H20 for 2.596"-long Starline basic brass is a sample of one case.
The Hornady .458 Win.Mag. 2.495"-long brass water measurement of 94.3 grains H2O is a sample of 30 or more, once-fired, not resized.
Repeated checks over the years.
Letting that brass grow to 2.500" would allow it to hold 94.5 grains gross H2O.
Close to 95 grains.
Maybe I should call the new one the .45-95 WIN ME?
I know of no other .45-95 Winchester, Sharps, Remington, Ballard, etc.

I think I ought to get a 550-grain paper-patchable bullet for the .45-100 WIN ME and the .458 WIN LongCOL.
A Quigley-accurate 1510 fps would be the goal.
Powder-coat-painted-smokeless, 550-grain-bullet loads will also be considered,
for sake of diversity and intersectionality.
We are woke.
550-grain Woodleighs at 1510 fps instead of 2150 fps: Ho hum.

Rip ...

Excellent, RIP. Good to know. I guess QL is not as up to date as you! Is it even possible for software to be "woke" anyway?

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
I'd gargle some Buffalo Trace with y'all anytime,
and be proud to have ya call me Buffalobreath.

Rip ...

Normally, I offer "butter" (Jack Daniel's) or "smoke" (Laphroaig), but then I'm good with others.

A wee dram of Laphroaig lets me taste the African bush, sitting around a fire in a grass-roofed courtyard.

416Tanzan,

Thanks for THE MISSION support.
I am going to have to learn to pronounce that whisky name soon as I have tasted it and learned to spell it, in that order.
You have found my inspiration for a cartoon of my Tanzania experience.
Whenever Walter farted he would say "Bless you!" to anyone in earshot.
Buffalo breath or a Walter fart, hard to tell the difference.
Walter might have thought he farted if he suddenly smelled buffalo breath:

Another "Far Side" inspired depiction of Saeed pretending to make a Mark Sullivan video:

The Starline .45-2.6" brass is specified as .45-100 WCF at MidwayUSA, 100 pieces for $110.

Using the .45-70 Govt. as a basis and extending it to 2.600" on the RCBS Cartridge Designer tool, results in a case capacity of ...



97.4 grains of H2O.
Very close to reality.
I am going with this to rechamber .45-70 Govt. single shot rifles.
I have too many of those lying around gathering dust.

Rip ...

24" Ruger No.1, same ROL as a 20" bolt action:

26" Ruger No.1, same ROL as a 22" bolt action:

Dang if 25" doesn't seem to be the optimum, aesthetically, for a Ruger No.1, to my warped mind.
Same ROL as a 21"-barreled bolt action.
Plenty short and handy,
and the better to model loads for original 25" African ballistics.

Rip ...

Better make the barrel length 25.1" on that Ruger No.1
since the .45-100 WME case is 0.1" longer than the .458 WIN.
Then add the 0.070" over-powder card,
for Goldilocks perfect.

Rip ...

Based on records from the National Archives,
Frank Sellers, SHARPS FIREARMS, page 340, has sleuthed out that
the .45-100 2.6" was first done by Sharps in November 1876.
The .45-100 Sharps 2.6" was discontinued less than a year later.
By June 8, 1877, it was replaced by the ".45-90" Sharps 2.4", as collectors call it nowadays,
though sharps never loaded it with less than 100 grains of BP.
The common load was .45/100/550 paper patch.
Same load was used in the 2.6" case.
This was accomplished in the shorter case by seating the long paper-patched bullet shallowly.
The .458 WIN LongCOL: SHADES OF THE .45 SHARPS!

Sellers says the ".45-caliber 2.4-Inch Straight"
was used exclusively as a target load in the Sharps Model 1874, Model 1877, and Model 1878 Long-Range rifles.
Lessee what Mike Venturino says about the .45-2.6" ...

Rip ...

SPG Lubricants BP CARTRIDGE RELOADING PRIMER by Mike Venturino and Steven P. Garbe, pp. 78-79:

".45-100 (2.6 INCH)
Introduced in late 1876, but replaced in 1877 by the .45 2.4-inch case previously described, the .45 Sharps using the 2.6-inch case is one of the rarest of original Sharps calibers (sic). This cartridge was factory loaded with 90 to 100 grains of black powder. Its purpose was Creedmoor 800, 900, and 1000 yard target shooting. In modern cases, one is hard pressed to get such large charges in the case using a normal bullet seating depth. A load of 85 grains is more easily accommodated. Still, the .45-100 is overly powerful for Black Powder Silhouette and is more adapted to longer range buffalo or Creedmoor matches. It has plenty of power for all North American big game hunting since it is capable of using bullets ranging from 300 to over 500 grains. The .45-100 loaded with Express-type bullets offers the hunter a significantly flatter trajectory than most black powder cartridges."

Among the rarest of original Sharps rifles, there was indeed a .45-100 Sharps 2.6-Inch Straight, orphaned before the Sharps Co. died.
Apparently not originally a .45-100 Winchester Center Fire, it may well have been called that later.
Midway sells the Starline .45-2.6" brass as ".45-100 WCF."

Looks like I am going to have to change the name of the flanged .458 WIN simulator again, to:
".45-100 Sharps & Winchester 2.6-Inch Straight" (with a .458 WIN throat).

Rip ...

SHOOTING BUFFALO RIFLES of the OLD WEST by Mike Venturino, pp. 152-154:

"The .45-100 with 2.6 inch case was the most short-lived of all cartridges chambered by Sharps. According to Sellers' Sharps Firearms ... Several sources give the standard Sharps factory load as having 550 grain paper patch bullet over 100 grains of powder. Also, I have an original UMC cartridge box for the .45-2.6" Sharps. It lists a 500 grain bullet with 90 grains. As late as 1899 Winchester still listed this cartridge with 100 grains of powder and 500 grain paper patched bullet.
Ah ha! The .45-100 WCF.
In none of my research have I found mention of the .45-2.6" Sharps cartridge being factory loaded with grease groove bullets.

"This cartridge was intended solely for long-range target shooting, and the Sharps Company chambered both their Model 1874 and Model 1877 Long-Range rifles for it. It is this writer's educated opinion that more modern replica single shot, black powder cartridge rifles have been chambered for the .45-100 than were ever made back in the 1870s. But, that still doesn't mean it is commonly encountered ...

"Ready-to-load .45-2.6" brass is being made by Starline ... proper shell holder size is the same as for .45-70. Lyman has .45-100 dies as standard while RCBS has them in their Group L ...

"Some years ago an original Sharps Model 1874 Long-Range #2 chambered for this round came my way.
Its barrel was marked "Caliber .45" on the top flat, but with a small 45-6/10 upside down on the right barrel flat ...
I slugged it ... and found it to measure .459 inch across its grooves."

Just like most .458 WIN rifles.
SAAMI minimum is 0.458" groove diameter.
0.459" groove diameter is a good thing, "within SAAMI specs."

The .45-100 Sharps & Winchester 2.6-Inch Straight:



To be reduced to .458 WIN LongCOL capacity by use of a 0.070"-thick over-powder card,
and tested in single-shot rifles of various twist rates:


Rip ...

Sam's 458 win mag




Estimate: $14000 - 22500
Manufacturer: Borovnik Model: Side by Side
This beautiful double rifle was made by Ludwig Brovnik of Ferlach, Austria in 1968 and belonged to the biggest game hunter in the world, Sam Pancotto. This is one of only two of these rifles in the United States. This rifle is of "Best Gun" quality and execution, and features 24 1/8 inch barrels with a blade front sight on a raised rib and a fixed and folding leaf rear sight on a quarter rib. This rifle is a double 458 Win Mag, "working double" and is regulated for 60 meters. Behind the rear sight is a panel with three drilled and tapped holes and the marking "first holeLHIG'S MIL, second holeYALE PA." and the top breech end of the left barrel is marked "MADE IN AUSTRIA". Both partial ribs are very nicely filed (matted). The barrels are made of Bohler Special G 55 steel, a high chrome content steel of the very highest strength and quality. This steel is only used on the finest rifles and shotguns. The barrel lockup is a double lug type with a double Kersten style cross bolt and there are ejectors. The scalloped action is French gray and features beautiful floral scroll engraving with a cape buffalo in a jungle scene on the trigger guard plate in a decorative panel. The engraving extends to the break lever, forearm hardware and the trigger guard which also has a round panel with a cabin and signed "Flaig's". Double triggers, disc set strikers, tang mounted manual safety and mounted with a very nicely figured skip-line checkered Bastogne walnut forearm and pistol grip stock The wooded has a hand rubbed oil finish, has a horn grip cap and a solid London Guns recoil pad. There have been few side by side rifles ever made and there are a limited number of makers world wide who can make, or are allowed by their government to make a side by side rifle in large bore. Accompanying this rifle is a cardboard binder titled "Sam and Rosemary Pancotto" with an end page that reads "And Then. . ./There were None." "Nothing Lasts forever!" which contains large photographs of Sam Pancotto's office and game rooms which are truly unbelievable. The number of stuffed and mounted animals is mind boggling. There is also a small spiral binder entitled "Sam and Rose Pancotto/2006" with photographs of other game rooms. There are two "Saga" magazines, April 1969 and October 1970 with an article about Sam Pancotto featured in them. The rifle is complete with a canvas covered hard takedown case with leather corner protectors, straps and handle, with green felt lining.
BBL: 24 1/8 inch round
Stock: walnut
Gauge: 458 Win Mag
Finish: blue/french grey
Grips:
Serial Number: 402980
Condition:
Very good. The barrels retain 90% original blue finish with a smooth plum patina on the balance. The trigger guard retains 98% original blue finish. The receiver retains almost all of the original French grey finish. The wood is excellent. There are two natural flaws on the right side of the stock, a small splinter absent from the upper right rear of the forearm and overall only light handling marks and very crisp checkering. The engraving remains crisp. Mechanically excellent. Virtually all side by side "stopping guns" are handmade and show the highest standards and embellishments of the gunsmiths art, and this rifle is no different.

That is cool, stradling.
Good ring of THE MISSION bell. Sam Pancotto was prolific with his .458 WIN.
I visited with xausa and sambarman338 in TN today.
I have pictures (to follow) of xausa's Krieghoff
O/U .458 WIN and a second one in .450 C&W which is
a .458/.375 H&H Flanged 2.85-Inch.
That would be like a .450 Watts Flanged and
said to be generously throated.
Though I am envious, I will not abandon
the .45-100 S&W 2.6-Inch Long Throat,
the flanged .458 WIN Twin.

Rip ...

I don’t follow this thread in great detail cause even though I have a lott and a 450-400 I consider myself a 375 (H&H and ruger) person.

But one of my regrets in life is not buying a 458 win over under double from the beretta gallery. They were willing to sell me a $25k gun for $5k -their last one. And I bitched about a right hand check piece. I suck.

Mike

quote:

Originally posted by Beretta682E:


But one of my regrets in life is not buying a 458 win over under double


Mike

Why ... WHY does this not surprise me?

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

quote:

Originally posted by Beretta682E:


But one of my regrets in life is not buying a 458 win over under double


Mike

Why ... WHY does this not surprise me?

Only doubles I like are over under

Mike

quote:

Originally posted by Beretta682E:

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

quote:

Originally posted by Beretta682E:


But one of my regrets in life is not buying a 458 win over under double


Mike

Why ... WHY does this not surprise me?

Only doubles I like are over under

Mike

Mike did the docs drop you on your head in the birthing room?



Tesla's
Electric powered Pick Up Trucks
Blasers
O/U Double Rifles
458 WM Double Rifles (not rimmed)

I'm trying to think back to that dinner we all shared at the steak house in Dallas. Did you order chicken?

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

quote:

Originally posted by Beretta682E:

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

quote:

Originally posted by Beretta682E:


But one of my regrets in life is not buying a 458 win over under double


Mike

Why ... WHY does this not surprise me?

Only doubles I like are over under

Mike

Mike did the docs drop you on your head in the birthing room?



Tesla's
Electric powered Pick Up Trucks
Blasers
O/U Double Rifles
458 WM Double Rifles (not rimmed)

I'm trying to think back to that dinner we all shared at the steak house in Dallas. Did you order chicken?

Am just born and made special

I only eat steaks at a steakhouse (I will get some lamb at Texas de Brazil). I never eat chicken at any high end place.

I think a over under double in 30/06 would be cool. I don’t like flanged ammo - tough to buy at academy.

I personally think doubles are maybe somewhat useful for a few ph (who are too slow to work a bolt properly) and wasted on everyone else.

I need to get a electric pickup. Just need to get around to getting solar on my house first. May do that this summer.

I also like fords, support gun control and voting control (one should have to pass the test a new naturalized us citizen passes to vote or own a gun), I support weighted voting (more votes for some people - property owners, professional educated ect).

I have multiple ways to p@ss people off but mostly it is poking fun at people who take their over priced discretionary vacations (hunting - Africa especially) and their toys (can’t hit a oil barrel at 50 yards double rifles) too seriously.

Mike

quote:

Originally posted by Beretta682E:

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

quote:

Originally posted by Beretta682E:

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

quote:

Originally posted by Beretta682E:


But one of my regrets in life is not buying a 458 win over under double


Mike

Why ... WHY does this not surprise me?

Only doubles I like are over under

Mike

Mike did the docs drop you on your head in the birthing room?



Tesla's
Electric powered Pick Up Trucks
Blasers
O/U Double Rifles
458 WM Double Rifles (not rimmed)

I'm trying to think back to that dinner we all shared at the steak house in Dallas. Did you order chicken?

Am just born and made special

I only eat steaks at a steakhouse (I will get some lamb at Texas de Brazil). I never eat chicken at any high end place.

I think a over under double in 30/06 would be cool. I don’t like flanged ammo - tough to buy at academy.

I personally think doubles are maybe somewhat useful for a few ph (who are too slow to work a bolt properly) and wasted on everyone else.

I need to get a electric pickup. Just need to get around to getting solar on my house first. May do that this summer.

I also like fords, support gun control and voting control (one should have to pass the test a new naturalized us citizen passes to vote or own a gun), I support weighted voting (more votes for some people - property owners, professional educated ect).

I have multiple ways to p@ss people off but mostly it is poking fun at people who take their over priced discretionary vacations (hunting - Africa especially) and their toys (can’t hit a oil barrel at 50 yards double rifles) too seriously.

Mike

Definitely dropped on your head at some point!

Thanks for THE MISSION support, you know who you are.

Here is an O/U double rifle by Krieghoff in .458 WIN, with spare .375 H&H & shotgun barrel sets.
xausa is sentimentally attached to this:



I would say it is hell-for-stout sturdier than any SxS DR, less wear and tear potential, and potentially more accurate, easier to regulate.
What's the beef? Harder for a whimp to crack it open to load that bottom barrel?

Rip ...

Same make scopes, different power, different ring spacing, no chance of getting them mixed up between the .458 WIN and the .375 H&H:



I think the top scope above is lower power and goes on the .458 WIN.
German Claws!

Rip ...

Bill Warren, xausa, surely qualifies to become the next spokesperson for Dos Equis beer.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IxgiTeXKOOc

Here is the .450 Creighton & Warren, a .458/.375 H&H Flanged, again a Krieghoff, this time on a 12G action instead of 20G:

.450 C&W

The .450 C&W sure is tempting.
Maybe a .450 C&W short as a .458 WIN Twin?

Rip ...

Who would pass up an elephant with one tusk broken off if the other one looked like a hundred pounds for sure?
Taken by xausa with his trusty .458 WIN:




I think I might take the shot too, especially if armed with a .458 WIN or .450 C&W DR, .505 SRE, or even a .45-100 S&W single shot.

Page 114!

Rip ...

My pick for the ultimate .45-100 S&W is the rifle in the middle here ...



That Sharps-Borchardt M1878:



If only I can talk xausa into letting it go.

Rip ...

http://brcrifles.com/

Custom guns:



One "Original" Winchester M1885 Hi Wall (at bottom/left) and three Sharps-Borchardts new-made actions.



Karamojo Bell tried a Hi Wall .45-125 Winchester Express but found it lacking due to the BP loading with 300-grain bullets!

I might have to settle for a BACO M1885 .45-70 re-chambered to .45-100 S&W.
That might do for elephant.
Oh! The possibilities!

Rip ...

Just when the .458 WIN deniers thought I had run out of material, xausa to the rescue:

Nerves of steel to take on an elephant with a .458 WIN:



And with an O/U Krieghoff to boot!
Todd would have been quaking in his boots to be so armed.

Rip ...

The deniers say .458 WIN bullets bounce off buffalo:



Obviously NOT!

Rip ...

Smaller game got the skinnier .375 H&H barrels on the same Krieghoff,
but the .458 would have been my choice for lion and leopard.







Rip ...

Another look at the .450 C&W (flanged) used in the second Krieghoff,



next to the WBY-belted .505 SRE and the .577 SRE.
The 570-grain Kynoch FMJ in foreground was sized down from .510 to .505 for the .505 SRE
used in bolt actions like this .505 SRE, the .505 Short Range Express:



Despite all that, wildcatting by xausa (including .416 and .375 cats), I never heard a "denying" word from him about the .458 WIN.
He is inseparable from his .458 WIN Krieghoff.

Rip ...

My .458 WIN Twin idea, continued:



I whited out an old reamer drawing and penned in some new numbers for consideration by Dave Manson, will see if he suggests any changes.



Rip ...

RIP,
Much appreciated your posting on xausa & his guns,the pictures are splendid & the history irreplaceable,I regard him as a very valuable asset to this site,just as you are precious on here,I salute you both ,
Now I just have to wait for the right O/U in 458 win to come along ,I do have two guns in my possesion that I consider rare & unique,my CZ BRNO O/U in 458 Lott(was originally a 458 win) & a reproduction Borchardt by Al Story in 45-90,custom ordered so by me,the first has seen Africa,number 2 is waiting patiently.

Love Bill’s pics. Not sure any one else noticed, but there seems to be a rainbow on his shoulder in the leopard pic. ;-)

That was a red letter day: I got a very nice elephant that morning and the leopard that afternoon. When I shot the leopard while he was stretched out on a limb, reaching for the wart hog we had hung as bait, he didn't react in any way, so I let him have the second barrel. Still no reaction. We got out of the blind and started toward the tree, and suddenly the leopard's hind quarters fell off the limb, leaving him hanging over a secondary limb. The first shot had hit him in the spine and the second shot was less than an inch from the first.



This was the only photograph we had of the elephant. Somehow the roll of film with all the other photos got lost.



This is a Polaroid B&W photo we took as a back up, showing David Williams, my PH and, from left to right, Sabuni, the tracker, Kaoli, my gunbearer, and Kheri Bhai, Dave's gun bearer.