The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Rifles Big Bores What would you choose 404Jeff or 505Gibbs ?Go | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
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Gentlemen: What would your choice be? Paul K Take Trophies - Leave Brass | ||
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Greatly depends on what you're hunting..... Guns and hunting | |||
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I would pick the 404J. Can be made up into a lighter weight rifle and much easier to "hump" after buffalo and elephant on a hot day. | |||
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At what starting velocity? What about the 458 Win? And the 450/400? 400 Whelen?
577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
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Paul K, The 404 would be my choice everytime. I just don't think the recoil and necessary gun weight for the 505 are needed. I thought at one time I needed something larger than the 416 RM/Rigby or 458 WM but after using them I just don't see that the cannons are necessary. Mark MARK H. YOUNG MARK'S EXCLUSIVE ADVENTURES 7094 Oakleigh Dr. Las Vegas, NV 89110 Office 702-848-1693 Cell, Whats App, Signal 307-250-1156 PREFERRED E-mail markttc@msn.com Website: myexclusiveadventures.com Skype: markhyhunter Check us out on https://www.facebook.com/pages...ures/627027353990716 | |||
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I think it depends on your tolerance for recoil; Gunslinger55 and Jiri are two guys I have seen shoot big guns with indifference, but I think my limit is the .416 Rem Mag; I sure have no desire to shoot anything bigger than that unless it is unscoped (I tend to get scope bit). | |||
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I would put both the 404 and 505 in the "I just want one" class and for me the 505 is way ahead BUT only if I could have in on the right rifle and action and for me that does not mean a CZ. Choosing between the 404 and 505 is not like choosing between the 270 and 30/06 or 300 Winchester and 338 Winchester or choosing between the 338 Winchester and 340 Wby etc. This is more like choosing between the 300 Winchester and 378 Weatherby. I think the 505 is like the 378 in the sense you really have to want one. I have had a lot of 378s, including from the custom shop but it is hard to think of any advantage it has over the 300 Winchester. A 500 A2 will give you the 50 calibre and all the recoil you can handle and be a 100 times easier deal to do and live with. BUT if you want a 505 then that makes the difference. There is only one person who can answer your question and that is you. | |||
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I have 3- 375's a 416 Rigby and have to choose between the two. I do not plan on hunting Elephant. But I have an opportunity to buy only one, and these are my choices and I want your input. Paul K Take Trophies - Leave Brass | |||
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Then I would get the 505. Having said that the 404 J does nothing for me and for an English classic calibre I would take a 416 Rigby every day of the week over a 404 J. | |||
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I kinda understand the dilemma. I have coveted a .404 for a while but since I own a super accurate .416 Rigby, I just can't justify it. Believe me, I know I don't have to have a reason to get a new rifle, but I'm getting to the point I want to use some of the ones I have more, and if I have one that is similar, one has to be left behind. With that said, I have wanted a .505 as well. When I hunted elephant in Zimbabwe I had to pleasure to stand guard one night while my PH cut trees elephants had pushed down across the road we were taking out after we cut up the elephant. The rifle I had was my PH's and had been owned by Tommy Orford, "Kamchacha", before he died. It was somewhat of a legendary rifle that Tommy had used to crop over 5,000 elephant in Hwange I was told. Since then I have had a soft spot for a 505. I'd love to have one but I fear I would not get much use out of it. Truth of the matter is...I have used the .416 and .458WM for the big stuff and never found them inadequate. | |||
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I don't like carrying heavy rifles when I hunt. I own both a 404 and a 505. I shoot 600 gr. in my 505. I don't see a 525 gr. bullet as much of a jump up from a 500 gr. 458 round. Hence the 600 gr. I shoot 400 SAF & 430 NF in my 404. Since I don't like carrying heavy rifles all day walking in Africa, I have never taken my 505 there. Like others have stated above, I have not found my 40 calibers wanting, so I guess I'll stick with my 40s. My favorite? My Dakota Safari 404 Jeffery. It weighs 8 1/2 lbs. A joy to carry in the midsize Safari frame. I own a Dakota 416 Rigby in the larger African frame. It weighs 9 1/2 lbs. and the frame/grip is bulkier than the Safari, and I have very small hands. Hence, my choice of 404 Jeffery for all of the above reasons. Your choice will depend upon your tolerance for recoil and/or rifle carry weight, and perhaps frame size. Depending on your financial situation, perhaps the cost of ammo as well. 505 Gibbs ammo tends to be very expensive ($200/box). Good luck in your choice! | |||
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I have a 505 and a bunch others including a 416 rem which I think is similar in recoil to a 404. No comparison in recoil the 505 is very stout even compared to my 458 Lott. I can’t wait to take it to Africa though. Classic but so is the 404. Really boils down to shoorabikity and carrying it around White Mountains Arizona | |||
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Having owned two rifles in .404 Jeffery and one in .505 Gibbs, and having shot game with the .404 Jeffery, .500 A2, and .500 Mbogo, the latter two being more powerful than the .505 Gibbs CIP-restricted loads, I would choose the .458 Winchester Magnum. Thus splitting the difference.  Rip ... | |||
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between the two, for a hunting rifle? the 404 .. for a stunting rifle, the 505. you have selected two of my least favorite rounds, due to bullet selection - in both cases, i prefer the .416 and .510 bullets ... which, of course, means I prefer the 416 and 500 AccRel! #dumptrump opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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Can’t you due to enormous case capacity make the Gibbs into a real shoulder breaker? As factory loaded it’s pretty mild at 6500 ft lbs 
White Mountains Arizona | |||
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Practicality is one thing. Nostalgia another. The 505 has some history behind it which I prefer. Plus I got a smoking deal lol I do like my .416 Rem Mag though for sure
White Mountains Arizona | |||
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The 404 was and always has been my go to African DG rifle..I also shot the 505 Gibbs and now Im paying the piper with cortazone shots and bursitis, I never really cared for the big 50s, they are loaded with BS and penis envy, and kill no better than a 404 as far as I could tell and if I was honest with myself, which I wasn't in my misled youth..The big 50s are closet queens, and go well with hot toddys on a cold day, and fine wine at a party to display to friends and enemys..    Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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I bet this is not the case about killing power. But yes the recoil is severe. Smaller round will work but bigger better in a close range situation as many of the old timers profess...The 505 and 500 Jeffrey are very good. Anyhow a .458 Lott is about as good as I’ll ever need or my .470 or .500 but the .505 can outpace them All. On paper anyway I hope to find out. Ray you say it did not perform For you? White Mountains Arizona | |||
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Compared to the 404 Jeffery, the 505 has almost no history behind it. That is a fact. The 404 was and is a workhorse. The 505 is an uncommon novelty, by comparison Matt FISH!! Heed the words of Winston Smith in Orwell's 1984: "Every record has been destroyed or falsified, every book rewritten, every picture has been repainted, every statue and street building has been renamed, every date has been altered. And the process is continuing day by day and minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Party is always right." | |||
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Funny I’ve heard of the 505 before the 404. If I was hunting dangerous game I know which one id’dp rather have but to each their own. 404 a workhorse for sure but not in the same league. Show me where I’m wrong White Mountains Arizona | |||
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You are one of the best shots I’ve seen. I’m sure size has a big thing to do with it its just physics.
White Mountains Arizona | |||
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fortunately or not, I am immune to that particular siren #dumptrump opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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Practicality and ease is a valuable asset for sure. Since most people do more dreaming than actual African hunting nostalgia helps for me White Mountains Arizona | |||
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Didn't say or mean it didn't perform I don't think, I said or ment I could not tell any difference in the killing power between the 404 and the 505 based on a number of buffalo I killed and have seen killed, they run a bit and die...I think the 505 is a caliber of unreasonable expectations, many calibers are, at some point it becomes a push and death comes about by bullet placement and bullet integrity. If I had too pick a caliber that impressed me visually Id have to pick the 458 Lott first and foremost..but visually is not very scientific..The .470 is impressive as hell as a rule, but Ive seen buff make a lot of tracks with good hits, and have film of two cape buffalo hunts where in one bull took 9 shots and another took 13 with a 505 and a 577, I booked the hunt for them, some of those shots were well placed btw and some were not..but it gives thought to some opinnions, it did mine. I witnessed 2 bulls shot with the .460 wby and another with a 416 Wby, and those were one shot kills and drt...but a couple of bulls means zilch, 25 to a 100 does tell a story I suspect..That said it did appear that velocity played a major part in the Wby kills, as they seemed to react violently to the hit...Im not a spokesman for WBY as I,m not fond of the design, the size and the recoil, but they work it seems. Im nostalgic to the core and feel pain for those who have not been blessed with it..  Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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Since you have the 416 Rigby already, unless the existing 404 you were to purchase was much smaller and or lighter, I would go 505. As much as I think the 404 is cool, there is a vacuum at the top end of your arsenal. Can you shoot them before purchase? That should make up your mind for you if that is a possibility. 577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
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I KNEW that was coming!  | |||
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In watching videos etc it seems guys shooting open sighted doubles sometime take a few extra shots and have to follow up a buffalo etc. my theory which may or may not be correct is that open sighted rifles have a limitation and sometimes shot placement can be less than ideal. I usually hunt with a optic making shot placement pretty definite. I believe this can alter the outcome of any caliber or rifle choice as ultimately shot placement is key. I always wonder about some Hunts I’ve seen when a guy is shooting rather wildly at say a buffalo and basically is blasting away and you can see they are ineffective hits and the animal runs off and must be followed up. In My limited experience I find that putting a well Placed bullet of proper construction and adequate caliber and velocity will do the job with one shot. That said I still think bigger is better. But I can pretty much guarantee I could shoot a low power variable scoped .505 better than my open sighted.500 or .470 double. My Lott with the iluminsted z6 1-6 is just about as perfect a DG rifle I can think Of but oh the doubles reek of nostalgia and within their limitations very functional if you practice a lot....Practicing a lot can be a big financial commitment but definitely necessary
White Mountains Arizona | |||
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I never felt ill at ease hunting buffalo with a double, but I limit my buffalo shooting to 50 yards as a rule, I like irons sights and grew up shooting them..Ive shot a couple of buffalo at around 75 to a 100 yards, and a wounded bull or two at something over a 100 by guess..Ive never felt the need to have to use a scope, but have no problems with a low power scope on any rifle for any game. I like the 3X Leupold on a bolt gun..More than anything else it depends upon the hunters skill with what he shoots, not opinion on whats good and whats not..In this case scenario Id go with a 8.5 Lb. 404 as opposed to a 12 lb. 505, and has nothing to do with caliber, I found packing 505 that as the day passed the gun got heavier and slower on the point and follow up shots in my later years..to what degree, depended on the day of the week!  even with my doubles, I opted for the Searcy 450-400 over the others as it was light and faster on follow up shots. Just the way it worked out for me, not saying anothers choice is wrong..but you will change as the years go by..Today Id take a light 9.3x62 or 375 for buffalo or elephant..Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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505 Gibbs, "they don't get up" Regards, Chuck "There's a saying in prize fighting, everyone's got a plan until they get hit" Michael Douglas "The Ghost And The Darkness" | |||
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If you plan to shoot a pile of elephants, then go 505, otherwise I’d go 404. Go Duke!! | |||
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.505 Gibbs for bragging rights on a Friday night. .404 Jeffery for realistic hunting and historical enjoyment. - Mike | |||
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I think the 505 is cool (500 Jeff, too!), and yes, it does have history behind it. However, I think, historically speaking, there were vastly more 404 rifles in the field, and game taken with the 404 than the 505. Some famous folks are connected to the 505, and it’s been there and done that, but the 404 far outpaced it by the numbers. You are certainly not wrong to choose the 505 for its history, but historically, the 404 just can’t be ignored. I’m a big fan of the 416 Rigby and it’s history, but it, too, pales in comparison to the 404s ubiquity in the old days. Matt FISH!! Heed the words of Winston Smith in Orwell's 1984: "Every record has been destroyed or falsified, every book rewritten, every picture has been repainted, every statue and street building has been renamed, every date has been altered. And the process is continuing day by day and minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Party is always right." | |||
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I agree .404 more numerous and easier to shoot. My point was purely on “stopping power” and effect on large game. The old timers corraborate as well. If I didn’t already have a .416 id have a .404 for sure for nastalgia and I might anyway..that’s why I collected so many RUM actions but then I found out I like the RUM but maybe one will get converted.... White Mountains Arizona | |||
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Nobody mentions "recoil recovery" with the really big bores, and it can become an issue in the really thick stuff.. if its not a problem then a Ruger SS would do just as well as a double it would seem.  Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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Paul K, it would be helpful to know what you are planning to hunt and how you tolerate recoil? I have a 458 Lott, Gibbs 505, and .577. If a lot of walking, and open savannah, Lott, PG and DG open savannah, love the 505, up close and dense vegetation, 577. As others have said, if you have 416, jump up to the 505. Be careful with scope and eye relief. I ve got a scope ring scar from mine but I love it and it’s great and very accurate. | |||
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Well, it did star in fiction.
Until Hemingway made it so. "Only accurate rifles are interesting." | |||
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Taylor in his book sure liked it. Hemingway helped for sure but it pops up regularly in old elephant hunting literature. Taylor thought it and the Jeffery were so over powerful you could chop the barrel and make it more handy with no loss of useful power. Sure it was limited in quantity made but all big elephant guns were pretty specialized pieces. Not mass quantity items White Mountains Arizona | |||
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those who think the 404 is not an elephant gun, have simply not used it on elephant..Those that think they must have more gun are not confident in their shooting skills or have a deep inbred fear of the animals in question..Ive never seen or felt the 416 Rigby, 404 Jefferys or the 375 was lacking at the ranges its designed to shoot DG at...and stopping power does not impress me as I have seen buffalo in particular make many tracks after being shot with all the biggest of bores, and a number of those kills on film from clients..As a matter of fact I would be perfectly comfortable hunting buffalo with a 9.3x62 and stopping a charging buffalo is a matter of bullet placement and that only IMO..Ive stood 3.5 all out charges and all 3.5 were brain shots, because that's what works in the short rows.. Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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The question doesn't make a lot of sense to me. It's like asking, "Which do you prefer, a pickup truck or an SUV?" The two calibers are not meant for use interchangeably. If I were going to shoot plains game and thin skinned dangerous game, then it would be the .404 for sure. On the other hand, I have killed one rhino, three elephants and five Cape buffalo with my wildcat .505, which will duplicate the Gibbs performance without raising a sweat. That includes killing three buffalo with four shots in less than two minutes. If I were to hunt thick skinned dangerous game again, it would be the .505 hands down. The other consideration is, which one can you effectively shoot? If you are at all recoil sensitive, the .505 is probably not for you. Back in 1960, it took me months of shooting with reduced loads before I was able to shoot a full bore factory load in my first .458 WM, but I ended up being able to shoot my wildcat .577 effectively, even though the recoil pushed me back two paces with each shot. | |||
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I've seen someone shoot the 505 Gibbs amongst other shooters who were shooting mostly 375's.I believe the fellow was a good shooter and judging by the recoil and blast there was no doubt he was shooting max. loads.The fellow could not hit anything and observing the whole scene from a few steps back it was obvious to me why he couldn't.There was no way in the world anyone could stand behind that and not flinch.I don't mean that as a joke. | |||
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The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Rifles Big Bores What would you choose 404Jeff or 505Gibbs ?
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