Purely from a recoil absorbtion aspect there is NO comparison between the two.

Now if you want to win the "who has a bigger Johnson" contest....well, .505 hands down

Unless you plan to hunt a lot of elephant..stick to the .404..

I have been carrying my .404J for many years now and like the weight and accuracy of the rifle. It is considered a classic cartridge and works well.

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
I've seen someone shoot the 505 Gibbs amongst other shooters who were shooting mostly 375's.I believe the fellow was a good shooter and judging by the recoil and blast there was no doubt he was shooting max. loads.The fellow could not hit anything and observing the whole scene from a few steps back it was obvious to me why he couldn't.There was no way in the world anyone could stand behind that and not flinch.I don't mean that as a joke.

This is my wildcat .505 SRE. My standard load is a 570 grain bullet at 2150 fps., the same as a .500 NE. My rifle weighs 8 3/4 pounds. Below is a buffalo I shot four times as it ran past me. Three of those shots could have been covered with a playing card. I am 5'8" and weigh 165 pounds. I could not have shot that group if I had been flinching.





This is my .505 Gibbs, built for me by Lon Paul on a Granite Mountain action. It weighs substantially more than my .505 SRE and consequently has substantially less recoil velocity and energy. I have never taken it to Africa, so I have no experience with live game with it to report, but I have no doubt that it would perform even better than my .505 SRE.

Safari shoot?

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
I've seen someone shoot the 505 Gibbs amongst other shooters who were shooting mostly 375's.I believe the fellow was a good shooter and judging by the recoil and blast there was no doubt he was shooting max. loads.The fellow could not hit anything and observing the whole scene from a few steps back it was obvious to me why he couldn't.There was no way in the world anyone could stand behind that and not flinch.I don't mean that as a joke.

The 505 was not meant for a small target accuracy contest. Bit the more practice the better as it is an accurate round if you do your part

I am not saying it is not accurate.A tough boxer can take one or two solid right hand punches to the head and still be on his feet but the troubles come after the second or third.No matter how good of a shooter you THINK you are, not many people can shoot a rifle like a 505 Gibbs accurately for long.

My theory on shooting heavy recoiling rifles is never to practice with them using full loads. I never notice recoil when actually shooting at game, probably because I am not bracing against it. I reserve the full loads for sighting in off the bench and testing, but use a Lead Sled in both instances. For every full load I fire in the field, I will have fired dozens, if not scores, of reduced loads, mainly with cast bullets. You may have noticed that my .505 SRE does not even have a recoil pad.

quote:

Originally posted by xausa:
My theory on shooting heavy recoiling rifles is never to practice with them using full loads. I never notice recoil when actually shooting at game, probably because I am not bracing against it. I reserve the full loads for sighting in off the bench and testing, but use a Lead Sled in both instances. For every full load I fire in the field, I will have fired dozens, if not scores, of reduced loads, mainly with cast bullets. You may have noticed that my .505 SRE does not even have a recoil pad.

It's not about recoil pads.No matter how many light loads you shoot, one or two max 505 Gibbs load will wake you up to reality.That said I think practice still helps.

If you have ever shot a rhino, an elephant or a Cape buffalo at close quarters (35 yards or less), then you will appreciate that the last thing on your mind will be recoil, and consequently you don't feel it. This is not just my impression. I have heard the same thing numerous times from others with experiences like mine.

I disagree about not feeling the recoil.
You may not feel any pain, but when facing a serious charge with my 505 I vividly remember how slow recovering from the recoil felt, compared to that of my 458.

Holy cow xausa! That is a great Buff there. Congrats!

No, I did not notice the absence of recoil pad on your rifle until you mentioned it.

Holy cow again.

I did however, notice the straight stock and little drop of your wildcat 505, compared to the drop on your 505 Gibbs. That had to help, no?

How many years ago was that picture taken with your excellent Buffalo, and what country? Golden Age of safari hunting?

That picture was taken in the last few days of a three week hunt in Kenya. Elephant hunting had already been shut down and hunting in general was banned shortly afterwards, leaving the poachers an open field to operate in. I can't imagine how much Kenya has changed in the meantime.

We had been scouting for buffalo when we were stopped by a local who said he knew of a big bull who took a nap every day in the same patch of brush, so we cautiously approached it and I stationed myself on a hillside overlooking the siesta spot. The local and the other gunbearer and the tracker starting making a racket on the opposite side of the thicket and all at once our guy came bursting out as if shot from a gun. I was perched on a ledge with my gunbearer behind me to catch me if the recoil forced me backwards. I emptied the rifle, all four rounds, but never lost my equilibrium. The bull stopped so suddenly that his nose plowed up the dirt. All four shots went in from above and slightly behind the shoulder. The "boys" had a hell of a time lugging the head up the hill to the hunting car.

Thanks for that reply xausa.

Kenya! Must have been nice...

Love to hear your stories.

quote:

Originally posted by 458Win:
... may not feel any pain, but when facing a serious charge with my 505 I vividly remember how slow recovering from the recoil felt, compared to that of my 458.

That would be a .458 Winchester Magnum.
Anything bigger is just a Tarzan yodel.
Tarzan was my hero as a child.
When the Tarzan TV series came on, starring Ron Ely, I changed my name from Ronnie to Ron.
I was collecting the Edgar Rice Burroughs Tarzan novels when I was 10 years old.
I outgrew it.

Rip ...

So no one anywhere needs a gun bigger than a .458 win I guess

quote:

Originally posted by gunslinger55:
So no one anywhere needs a gun dangerous game rifle bigger than a .458 win I guess

There, fixed it for you.
No more guessing necessary.

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
...No matter how good of a shooter you THINK you are, not many people can shoot a rifle like a 505 Gibbs accurately for long.

In a hunting situation do you think someone would have to shoot it for long?

quote:

Originally posted by tanks:

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
...No matter how good of a shooter you THINK you are, not many people can shoot a rifle like a 505 Gibbs accurately for long.

In a hunting situation do you think someone would have to shoot it for long?

You will not always feel psyched up enough to pull off a shot without flinching.Shooting it to sight in at the beginning of a hunt and practicing just before will have softened you up,IMO and recoil will be fresh in your mind.You can be lucky and still make a good shot but the difficult task of dealing with the huge recoil and controlling the trigger is still there.

404j. But, it sounds like you have already made up your mind.

The 404 is the more all-around choice but if you just have to have a big-bad-boy then the 505 is it.

quote:

2

Couple of considerations here. Personally, I love big bores, but I'm not man enough to shoot a .505 accurately or have the desire to try. I know my limitations.

Second one, was the last time I bought an "elephant rifle", my ever patient wife asked quietly how many rifles I had that were suitable for elephant. I gave her a quick answer that was an estimate and probably a little low. Her next, very quiet question was, "And how many have been to Africa?" The answer to that was far less.

I can buy any rifle I want without any comment from her. But it does make me start wondering what I really need. I already have it.

quote:

Originally posted by xausa:

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
I've seen someone shoot the 505 Gibbs amongst other shooters who were shooting mostly 375's.I believe the fellow was a good shooter and judging by the recoil and blast there was no doubt he was shooting max. loads.The fellow could not hit anything and observing the whole scene from a few steps back it was obvious to me why he couldn't.There was no way in the world anyone could stand behind that and not flinch.I don't mean that as a joke.

This is my wildcat .505 SRE. My standard load is a 570 grain bullet at 2150 fps., the same as a .500 NE. My rifle weighs 8 3/4 pounds. Below is a buffalo I shot four times as it ran past me. Three of those shots could have been covered with a playing card. I am 5'8" and weigh 165 pounds. I could not have shot that group if I had been flinching.





This is my .505 Gibbs, built for me by Lon Paul on a Granite Mountain action. It weighs substantially more than my .505 SRE and consequently has substantially less recoil velocity and energy. I have never taken it to Africa, so I have no experience with live game with it to report, but I have no doubt that it would perform even better than my .505 SRE.

Awesome post. Can I suggest you send the .505 over and I will test it for you? A great looking piece that.

quote:

Originally posted by xausa:

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
I've seen someone shoot the 505 Gibbs amongst other shooters who were shooting mostly 375's.I believe the fellow was a good shooter and judging by the recoil and blast there was no doubt he was shooting max. loads.The fellow could not hit anything and observing the whole scene from a few steps back it was obvious to me why he couldn't.There was no way in the world anyone could stand behind that and not flinch.I don't mean that as a joke.

This is my wildcat .505 SRE. My standard load is a 570 grain bullet at 2150 fps., the same as a .500 NE. My rifle weighs 8 3/4 pounds. Below is a buffalo I shot four times as it ran past me. Three of those shots could have been covered with a playing card. I am 5'8" and weigh 165 pounds. I could not have shot that group if I had been flinching.





This is my .505 Gibbs, built for me by Lon Paul on a Granite Mountain action. It weighs substantially more than my .505 SRE and consequently has substantially less recoil velocity and energy. I have never taken it to Africa, so I have no experience with live game with it to report, but I have no doubt that it would perform even better than my .505 SRE.

“There’s a saying in Texas: “The smallest dog barks the loudest.”

Given you already have the .416, (I think I read that), I’d go for the .505, unless the .404 had some special provenance.

The .505 would be better on elephant, but really a .416/.404 will do fine there anyhow. As I recall, the .416 Rigby was the most penetrating round, and with the new bullets it is more so. The .404 is close there. From a standpoint of holes in your collection, the .505 is a super heavy, so it is different.

If the choice was what to actually hunt with, I’d use the .404 of the two, but the .505 is a different niche gun.

404J

However, if 400gr .423 bullet at 2150fps gets the job done, 10.75x68 will do just that in a smaller lighter pkg.

quote:

Originally posted by drewhenrytnt:
404J

However, if 400gr .423 bullet at 2150fps gets the job done, 10.75x68 will do just that in a smaller lighter pkg.

A little bit of work on that smaller lighter package to open up to the .404 cartridge gives you the same package with 2150 fps for a 400gr bullet at low pressure then also having the option of loading up to 2500 fps with same 400gr bullet or anywhere in between if that is needed.

Agree that a 400 gr bullet at 2150 fps gets the job done well but some do like that 2300-2400 fps level that made the 416 Rigby with its 400gr bullet an unquestionable killer on DG. The 404 Jeffery can duplicate that performance.

I would like to comment on the .505...I shot a stock CZ550 the other day with Norma factory ammo, 600 grain woodleigh solids..they give ca.2100fps over the crono.

Given the straight stock and otherwise right proportions and weight (at least for me..) I found it amazingly easy to shoot..the recoil was not unpleasant.. I could have taken that rifle along in the bush straght away..

I am having a .500 Jeffery built on a ZKK 602 action for elephant hunting, I chose the Jeffery because it uses .510 bullets that are more easy to find and Norma (bless them) also load them...these cartridges are handloaded at the factory..

Get both , a 404 can be built relatively cheap on any 98 action, and have a handy lighter rifle ,505 being more expensive with magnum actions becoming increasingly [painfully] expensive ,cheapest option a CZ550 ,so you have the cannon if its a night hunt on elephant ,or if moneys no object a better 505

I like the way you think

Only REAL men like to get beat up and shoved around by the 505 Gibbs. It can kill on both ends!
Of course you can load the 404 Jeffery to do the same thing!
I'd pick the 404 Jeffery!

Why either, or?

I’ve thought about assembling a trio: .505 Gibbs, .404 Jeffery and .303 British.

I love the numerical alliteration!

Some people better stick to a 404 [with reduced loads ]

Je

quote:

Originally posted by Michael Robinson:
Why either, or?

I’ve thought about assembling a trio: .505 Gibbs, .404 Jeffery and .303 British.

I love the numerical alliteration!

I find it strange that there is no record of how any of these three cartridges were named. I would have thought if not recorded in company books, brochures etc, that given all three cartridges came about in the late 1800's (303) and early 1900's for the 404 and 505, word of mouth would have prevailed.
The numerical alliteration of all three seems to have nothing to do with bore or bullet measurements. From the earliest advertising for the 404 Jeffery there is a notion that the naming came from a .40 calibre with the original Mauser rifle holding 3 + 1 hence advertising as the new Model 1905 .404 Jeffery.

Not sure if the early 505 Gibbs Mausers were named after 50 cal with 4 + 1, could easily have been, I don't know how many of the fat rounds fitted into the first Mauser magazines.

The LE 303 while a '30 cal' in the same sense, had a 5 or 10 round magazine and was never a 1 + 3 to my knowledge.

The English were usually quite fastidious in recording things back then and word of mouth should have survived considering we are talking not much over 100 years ago. Would be a nice mystery to solve, just how did these three come to have numerical alliteration such as they have???

quote:

Originally posted by Pondoro:
I would like to comment on the .505...I shot a stock CZ550 the other day with Norma factory ammo, 600 grain woodleigh solids..they give ca.2100fps over the crono.

Given the straight stock and otherwise right proportions and weight (at least for me..) I found it amazingly easy to shoot..the recoil was not unpleasant.. I could have taken that rifle along in the bush straght away..

I am having a .500 Jeffery built on a ZKK 602 action for elephant hunting, I chose the Jeffery because it uses .510 bullets that are more easy to find and Norma (bless them) also load them...these cartridges are handloaded at the factory..

Did you shoot it from the bench or offhand? My 500 Jeffery (CZ 550) is great offhand. From the bench it's sporty.

quote:

Originally posted by ALF:
.303 was the bore diameter before cutting the grooves in the barrel ie .303 bore or 7.7mm

.505 was the bullet diameter 12.8 mm

The 404 is the only one that does not fit with bore diameter or groove to groove diameter

Well we'll just have to stick with the 40 calibre with the rifle holding 4 cartridges theory for the 404 Jeffery