That is great!

"Historical Background" is page two in my information packet. Paragraph 3 and 4 are in part what I quoted.

I also got 30+ pages of technical prints on the various Jeffery "versions" and other related .50s with it, courtesy of David Manson.

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
Mr. Little supports his claim of Cordite loading by referencing Bill Fleming's 1993 cartridge book as noted above.
Foot note # 2 in this package: Mr. Little then goes on to explain the likely loading method with Cordite, quite hypothetically.
No factual, vetted source.

I did note there is no reference for his statement on how the cordite ammo was built. I know from personal experience that the .505 Gibbs cordite ammo I pulled bullets on did not have a wad on top of the stick cordite. The bullet set directly on the cordite. I also find as did Mr. Little that the detailed drawing and spec of the .500 Jeffery bullet of "guilding metal coated steel" on the "8/28/1928 .5 Jeffery" print rather telling. That print is labeled "Kynoch/Jeffery" in the bottom left corner and "ICI Metals LTD Birmingham" bottom right but I can't read it all on my copy.

The same print (3rd revision, case/cartridge and bullet) also appeared in the 1930 Jeffery catalog.

Make of it what you want. Numbers I have seen were over 100 Schuler .500 Jumbos and less than 30 English made .500 Jefferys. I don't find the lack of British cordite ammo so amazing as the .500 Jeffery's did get used.

I saw that copy of Hatari times which lead me to Harold Wolfe back in the day when I was looking to build my own .50 cal. That article and access to a .505 Gibbs and original cordite ammo lead me to a discussion with Mr. Wolfe and later with Art Alphin. Those discussions, shooing and reloading a .505 Gibbs with modern powder eventually lead me to the Rigby case as a "modern" .50 ten years ago. The .416 Rigby/ 450 Dakota was the only cartridge case that was easily available and inexpensive enough for me to wild cat on at teh time.

I might do something different today if I was going to start ground up but it still wouldn't be the Jeffery.

IMO, this is such a silly argument.
The fact remains that Jeffery simply used the cartridge already in use by the Germans. It is stated in their advertisement that they decided to chamber their rifles in the 500 due to pressure from customers. "We have, therefore, decided to build rifles of the magazine type to take the .500 bore rimless cartridge."
Schuler made it first so it wouldn't be surprising that in adopting the German loading, Jeffery had no reason at all to come up with a cordite loading that late in the game.
Interestingly, they probably did just that with the 404 but that was much earlier than the 500 and cordite was still in wide use. The 404 is not Jeffery's invention either.

The mention that Leonard and Green had no cordite charge known in 1934 is interesting though.
Were the few 500's built for Jeffery not proved in the UK? Seems strange...

Huvius,
I'm with you, partly.
Cordite in a 404 Jeffery made sense, in 1905!!!
That case looks like it was meant for Cordite.
Like a 450/400 NE 3-inch with the rim turned off and shortened to 2.86".

But the 10.75x73mm Mauser versus 404 Jeffery chicken and egg thing ... I am not going there!

I prefer to believe that the Brits did the .404 Jeffery first, and the Germans did the .500 Schuler "Jumbo" before the .500 Jeffery.

Thanks for the pic
I would have to double check the numbers but looks like steeper shoulders, no rebate and 2.85" long.
A 3" case that would feed the 500 Jeffery as well seems pretty sweet still.

quote:

Originally posted by RDB:


.500s.....Jeffery and AHR

quote:

Originally posted by Huvius:
Were the few 500's built for Jeffery not proved in the UK? Seems strange...

If they went through (imported) into the UK,
then surely they would have been proofed. I find it very strange if they weren't.

If they were made OS and shipped direct, then they may not have been UK proofed but wouldn't they have German proofs ?

quote:

But the 10.75x73mm Mauser versus 404 Jeffery chicken and egg thing ... I am not going there!

I prefer to believe that the Brits did the .404 Jeffery first, and the Germans did the .500 Schuler "Jumbo" before the .500 Jeffery.

Love the hiding behind the couch guy!
I am waiting for the barrage on this one.

500N stated: "If they were made OS and shipped direct, then they may not have been UK proofed but wouldn't they have German proofs ?"

Yes they would but German proofs have no mention of the powder or load such as a Brit cordite proof would - just the bullet weight, bore dimensions, etc.
My Schuler has a stamp for a 35gram bullet - that is 540grains. BTW, it was made in March of 1928.

I would think that the farther the .500 Jumbo (12.7x70) is distanced from the .500 Jeffery the easier the discussion. Two different cartridges that were not interchangable in both English and German guns.

quote:

Originally posted by RDB:
I would think that the farther the .500 Jumbo (12.7x70) is distanced from the .500 Jeffery the easier the discussion. Two different cartridges that were not interchangable in both English and German guns.

yet the CIP drawings, by knyamco, says all 500 jeff ammo goes into the schuler chamber -- and its doesn't clear up a thing on cordite.

AND the cip drawing doesn't match the 500 jeffery original chamber casts ...

and the 1999 CIP drawing, and all loads post it, were enver loaded with cordite commercially.

Dane - Face it, it never was loaded with cordite, even Mr Geener and Mr leonard state this as fact, in 1934 - Leonard, the guy that built the first 21 english guns, says no known cordite loading.

Jeff

Maybe the only way is to pull the bullet from an old cartridge ?

That would answer the question wouldn't it ?

sure would -- i'll give $200 for a single round of pre-1940 KYNOCK 500 jeffery ammo -- must be kynock, as we all know that all the german firms who loaded it never used cordite, and Dane swears up and down that its kynock and loaded with cordite .. and ANYthing else but 500 jeffe just won't do for him.

soo - $200 bucks for a per-1940 vintage complete (unpulled, or muddled with) Kynock 500 jeffery piece of ammo.

I'll pull on video, one take, and we can all see.

anyone got a pre-1940 piece of kynock ammo?

OK, then the hunt is on. Let's settle this once and for all.

Does anybody out there have a round as specified by Jeffeosso above ?

Guys,
Especially 500N:
Quoted above, scanned from the BASA monograph:

D.J. Lewis of RSA has already pulled every bullet on old original ammo he possessed,
and that included some of the ammo that the son of C. Fletcher Jamieson possessed,
having come from his father with that most famous of 500 Jeffery rifles delivered by H. Leonard to W.J. Jeffery on 15 July 1937,
serial number 25554.

I read also that C. Fletcher Jamieson even pulled the bullets and dumped some of the flake powder, and reseated the bullets.
Those cartridges showed "plier marks" on the bullets and were done to ballistically lighten the ammo, sort of a bubba tropical load,
back in the day.

C. Fletcher Jamieson got his ammo from W.J. Jeffery.
It was all flake powder loaded.

Please do try to find an old 500 Jeffery cartridge loaded with Cordite.
A wild goose chase.
Like go sit in the corner of a round room.

I would like to put out an appeal for anyone with this book to share what Mr. Bill was smoking:

Fleming, W. "British Sporting Rifle Cartridges", Amory (sic) Publications, Oceanside CA, ISBN 0-939683-11-3, 1993.

I did a google for the book and sent an email to a supposed seller, no reply yet.
Amazon.com did not have it.

I'd really have to question the ability of anyone to pull the bullets on a 500 Jeffery and then be able to reseat and actually use the ammo. As there was 5 or 6 "punched" crimp grooves by the pictures.

What is does make me think is Jamieson was desperate for ammo he could shoot. Which would make me wonder what he had shot for ammo previously.

Going to be hard to find any Kynoch 500 Jeffery ammo as even David Little @ Kynoch freely admits Kynoch loaded on unmarked basic Gecado brass.

Thanks RIP, I must have missed that.

.

Just to add a little to the debate.
There is a Schuler Jumbo, much like the one shown by Huvius, here in New Zealand which was written about in NZG&H magazine by it's owner, the accompanying photographs clearly shew it marked 12.6mmx70 and not 12.7

12.7 mm = .5000000000005"
So is that supposed to be the bore size?
12.95 mm is .510"
12.69999999999 mm is .500"
The 12.6mm or 12.7 mm is a way to get around the fifty cal misnomer laws.
The soon to be 49 caliber could also be the 12.65 mm. to greater subvert the gun dummy politicians and the "Just following orders" dolts.

Then we shall expand the bounty for a period loaded piece, Dane. Though old 5packs with some missing do show up. You do understand, bwana, that I am willing to spend MY money to prove your position, right?

I shall ask again, how many greater than .40 caliber rifles, not 45/70, do you own?

Dane, are you calling the man reseating the bullets a liar?

Or reload for

Or have owned


And anyone with a mallet can reseat bullets, chum.

Jeff,

If you find that cartridge and for some unexplained reason cannot reseat the bullet let me know, I am pretty darned sure I can reseat it for you. Although I won't punch crimp it.

Thanks Scott, but I'd keep it apart. No sense in pulling it again

quote:

Originally posted by oldun:
Just to add a little to the debate.
There is a Schuler Jumbo, much like the one shown by Huvius, here in New Zealand which was written about in NZG&H magazine by it's owner, the accompanying photographs clearly shew it marked 12.6mmx70 and not 12.7

Mine too...

I have seen it typo-ed as a 12.5x70mm in at least one illustrious pub. By the next page they had reverted to 12.7x70.
Shuler called it the .500 Schuler "Jumbo" at the outset.
12.6 or 12.7x70mm Schuler was a later alias.
Suggests a close collaboration with the Brits from the outset, eh?

I put in a request for Amazon.com to notify me if Fleming's book becomes available:

British Sporting Rifle Cartridges: A Summary of Case Types, Headstamps, Bullets, and Charge Variations
[Hardcover]
Bill Fleming
Bill Fleming (Author)

Surely one of my fellow gunnuts here has the book and could quote the .500 Jeffery section?

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
I have seen it typo-ed as a 12.5x70mm in at least one illustrious pub.....Suggests a close collaboration with the Brits from the outset, eh?

12.5 is also mentioned in the CIP application iirc.

The closer I look my take is there was little or no collaboration.

RDB
bwana, ahh, man, i am starting to feel you are dodging my question about your experiences with big bores..

i'll start -- i took this pic at a bubba shoot .. i think i shot every thing in this pics, that day ... and have reloaded for EVERYTHING (caliber wise) on this page, except the 500 nitro .. not all are truely bigbores, but sure fun to shoot



oh, i forgot to mention, there IS some .550" rounds .. including the nagnum, which it appears you decided to spout off about, without any knowledge befor ranting

Bwana Dane
i can post photos for you, if you like -- its really looking like you are dodging the question -- tell us about your bigbores, please

quote:

Originally posted by RDB:
The closer I look my take is there was little or no collaboration.

you are likely to be right, as the round was alrady finished and shooting.... like someone deciding to make a 275 rigby, i doubt they called up mauser and asked for premission to rename the 7x57 and use it ...

the schuler was probably made 3:1 over the jeffery -- and obviously made before the jeffery --- too bad we don't call it the schuler, to avoid confusion of the original vs the british copy

"Bwana" Dane,
Ah, I know undertand why you can't back off from this.. you are PUBLISHED as saying the jeffery was loaded with cordite .. but it appears where's no single contemporary refrence that backs this up.

I read in your blog that you have had a 458win and a 416 taylor .. but your hunting expereince with big bores is kind of narrow, isn't it?

quote:

To my knowledge none of the 5 rifles and one barreled action I had made up in .505 Burns have killed an animal. Mine does a good job of busting up rocks though

Can you update your blog with correct information on the 500 AR, please .. its 128gr of water, and is nothing like a 500/450 dakota .. case length is 2.65 .. merely click on the drawing in my signature. it is based on "nothing" in the past, as the case wouldn't even begin to fit into a 500 van horn chamber .. the van horn is .010 smaller based -- which one gets if one turns the belt off a weatherby case, as all big weatherby cases are rebated rims, as well as belted.. and turning off the rim results in the case dimensions of the van horn. the 500 AR has nearly indentical CAPACITY of the 495 a2 (130gr) , without being belted or rebated.

You might also update the section about .550" cases - Neal invented the .550 caliber bullet (note NOT a 55 boys, which is .56 - and yes, it matters, as all boys rounds are solids) -- Neal Shirley, 550 Magnum. I have the pleasure of being the first person to fire a 550 express, and 550 flanged, and the first to take a head of game with a .550 bullet, ever. It appears the so called 550 ivory Express was never actually chambered -- we tried for 2 years to get a print of the chamber reamer - never got it, never had it confirmed.. and as we understand it, it was a 55 boys bullet in a 50 bmg case .. hardly a sporting round in the concept of a DGR .. though likely fun to shoot if ever made.

just to keep matters accurate, you know, rather than continuing to spread mis-informtion.

Jeff:

I am not sure I understand all of this so if this question seems stupid, just bear with me. I have 100 rounds of Horneber brass for my CZ .500 Jeffery. The unfired cases have a fairly distinct shoulder and I always thought that it would work in a .500 Schuler. However, once it is fired, it has a much more gentle shoulder and I think it is then fireformed to a .500 Jeffery. Is that right?

the schuler as a slightly different, softer angle than the original 500 jeffe OR the now CIP drawing ..

the inverse of the 416 rigby .. which has a genle shoulder till fired!

Jeffe

Don't you have some 375 Vs. 375 testing to do?

yep .. when its not 100 degrees --
its 90 here, by 8 am .. can't get anything meaningful from the tests

Jeff,

Who is this Dane guy you keep referring to? Sounds like you believe he is a poseur, do I have competition? I ask only because you speak of him much like you do of me, let me assure you he ain't me. I have killed lots of critters with 50 cals (416s and 458s too).

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Bush:
Jeff:

I am not sure I understand all of this so if this question seems stupid, just bear with me. I have 100 rounds of Horneber brass for my CZ .500 Jeffery. The unfired cases have a fairly distinct shoulder and I always thought that it would work in a .500 Schuler. However, once it is fired, it has a much more gentle shoulder and I think it is then fireformed to a .500 Jeffery. Is that right?

Dave,
It sounds like the Jamison brass has about a 20-degree semi-angle shoulder.
And is being fireformed into the less acute shoulder of the current CIP "500 Jeffery."

Here are the only two CIP approved shoulders for these "500s":

12.7 x 70 (500 Schuler), dated 1-27-1998, revised 5-15-2002
and
500 Jeffery, dated 1-12-1999, revised 5-15-2002

(The cone angle divided by 2 >>> gives the semi-angle of the shoulder.)

Cartridge Maximums:

12.7 x 70 (500 Schuler): 39-degrees-54'-22" >>> 19-degrees-57'-11" = 19.953 degrees

500 Jeffery: 25-degrees-13'-41" >>> 12-degrees-36'-50.5" = 12.614 degrees

Chamber Minimums:

12.7 x 70 (500 Schuler): 39-degrees-56'-45" >>> 19-degrees-58'-22.5" = 19.973 degrees

500 Jeffery: (sic) 24-degrees-56'-56" >>> 12-degrees-28'-28" = 12.474 degrees

GOOD GRIEF!!! Chamber minimums are supposed to be a trifle larger than chamber maximums!!!

CIP has this bassackwards with the 500 Jeffery.
Typo on the print???

Looks like the 500 Schuler is the only correct one by CIP specs, which are actually those of the "Romey Hybrid" of 1997.
The surviving RWS drawing for the "12.7 x 70 Schuler" had a shoulder semi-angle of 23.54 degrees,
this according to the Kynamco submission to CIP of July 22, 1998.

The 500 Jeffery is still a screw-up.
There can be only one perfect 500 to maximize the Magnum Mauser action size, which all the original 500 Jeffery rifles were built on:





500 Mbogo 3" with 35-degree shoulder semi-angle,
patterned after Dave Estergaard's 470 Mbogo, just necked up and lengthened in the neck by a trifle.

Going by external dimensions, the 500 Mbogo is intermediate in case capacity between the 500 A-Square and the 500 Jeffery.
Quality Cartridge brass for the 500 Mbogo is better quality (Hornady basic) and has greater case capacity than 500 Jeffery brass by Bertram.

quote:

Originally posted by ScottS:
Who is this Dane guy you keep referring to?

That would be me...but Jeff has been on my ignore list for a while now. Why am I not surprised he is talking to himself?

quote:

The 500 Jeffery is still a screw-up.
There can be only one (or maybe two perfect 500 to maximize the Magnum Mauser action size..

agreed..

Dane,
I am of course partial to the 500 Mbogo, my baby.
However, I would much rather have your .505 Burns than a 500 Jeffery.
You did that way back when? Ten years ago?
Ditto Jeffe's 500 AR, much better cartridge than the 500 Jeffery.
I poo-pooed the minimum shoulder of a 500/.416 Rigby for many years.
Finally I saw the light.
Jeffe's 500 AR and my 500 Mbogo were birthed about the same time, 2-3 years ago.
Yep, it is about time I killed something with mine.
Just a hobby.

To stay on subject, here are some 500 Jeffery case capacities, gross water, as measured by D.J. Lewis, including his custom PMP brass
found in the BASA monograph:

500 Jeffery
PMP DJL ........ 154.94 grains (about equal to the 500 Mbogo)
Bertram ........ 151.45 grains
500 Gecado ..... 162.00 grains

RIP,

quote:

500 Jeffery
PMP DJL ........ 154.94 grains (about equal to the 500 Mbogo)
Bertram ........ 151.45 grains
500 Gecado ..... 162.00 grains

That Gecado brass must be REAL thin to have that much capacity. REAL THIN!!! Scares me.

RDB = Dane. Thanks for that. You have to give Jeff some slack, he can be a lot of fun. As can a few others here at AR.

quote:

Originally posted by RDB:
...but Jeff has been on my ignore list for a while now. Why am I not surprised he is talking to himself?

Why would I be on your ignore list? I don't agree with you, and have provided you with data to discuss this thread, that you started basis our discussion.

that's just chickenspit and cowardly -- i guess you DON'T want to know the answer

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
There can be only one perfect 500...
500 Mbogo 3"is better quality (Hornady basic)

Kinda off topic on the 500 Jeffery but I can't resist VIP? Would you mind posting a print of your 500 Mbogo again here? My personal rifle was a feeble version of an "improved chamber" using the 450 Dakota brass (easier to load than the .416 brass) so I have to fire form and shave the .416 Rigby brass at the base if I want to use it. After the original R&D and shooting with the first .505s we built I wanted it to be "easy" for my own use even though the 450 Dakota brass cost more initially. When I started my project there wasn't a .450 Dakota/Rigby available or I didn't know of it anyway. Might have stopped there myself if there were.

Sitting at the lathe this afternoon made me think the .500 Mbogo brass might be easily useful for my rifle as well.

Be fun to have a 500 head stamp, even if it might have to be 2nd best

BTW, Dave Estergaard is doing a 6-week overland drive from Windhoek to Dar, Namibia to Tanzania, Atlantic to Indian Ocean soon ...
with someone named Hilary.
Hopefully they will chronicle the trip on the internet like Erik D and his mate did.
How do I know? Facebook.

Reamer print?

I'll post mine, but you gotta post yours too:



I just copied Dave Estergaard's 470 Mbogo up to the shoulder, same angle.
Necking up from .475 to .510 adds a little to neck length. Allowing a 3.000" brass length gets the neck length to .492".
Maybe a longer neck would be better for a DGR, but it's surely a lot better than the .344" length of the 500 Jeffery.

"500 Rigby" sort of like 500 Gecado brass, eh?
Only .505 versus .510 versions.



The case capacity at ammoguide.com is a computed value based on their software, not real.
The true gross water capacity of the 500 Mbogo at 2.990" trim-to-length is 155.3 grains,
in the Quality Cartridge brass, from Hornady basic.
It will do just a little more than the 500 A-Square.
I am fond of the NONCON Concept of Doc M's MBIT testing, so will use 450-grain GSC HV copper bullets at +2800 fps, for varmints and buffalo and such.
Also preferred, 535-grain S&H brass FN solids at 2500 fps for elephants.



And here is a picture of the 500 Mbogo beside a 500 Jeffery:

Great stuff Ron, thanks.

Here is a good print copy that JGS sent me this week. One of the many .505 revisions we did. This one is back to .416 Rigby case as the base brass.



I messed with these in the late '90s and then put it all away for the last decade or so.
I didn't know ,416 Rigby cylindrical brass even existed until I saw what you had done on the Mbogo. Is there an easy source for 416 cylindrical brass now?

525 and 600g Woodleighs in fully formed brass.


It looks like the 500 Mbogo brass won't work in my chamber without moving the shoulder back, trimming amd cutting the base down a bit. Is that right? 2.3057" and 2.480" @ the shoulder.
One of the things that bothered me about my wildcat was it does not fully fill up the CZ 550 mag box. I lack a full .250". The Mbogo appears to do that better and hold a bit more powder as well. Both good things!

How does moving the shoulder forward .18" effect feeding? I see the standard CZ mag boxes get more and more narrow on the front end. Can you get 4 down on the Mbogo with out major gymnastics and new bottom metal?

I know I have a very efficient cartridge and powder stack. Just wish it fit perfectly in the action better. Rookie mistake on my part since it was built to take a full size .5O5 Gibbs.

Anyone what to sell me half a dozen cases of 500 Mbogo brass and/or another half dozen of .416 cylindrical to play with?

Easy enough to cut a new reamer and rechamber if I can come up with a longer case that will still fit with my bullet choices in the mag box.

If you wonder how I ended up with the 505, gotta remember the .500 Jeffery was really a mess back in the '90s. Didn't look like even the .510 bullets would always be around. So I bet the .505 Gibbs would be..even Kimber was making a few .505s back then.

Later, when Woodleigh brought out the .505" 600g PP I figured I was golden I'd already shot a lot of the 525s.