Jeff and I were having a conversation on another thread and I thought others might have something to add or enjoy the conversation.

Jumping into the conversation here:

"I was writing from my poor memory on the 500 Jeffery. The cordite info comes from Art Alpin and an original Jeffery print. I doubt you'll ever find the truth in that story without having actual English/Kynoch manufactured 1920's era 500 Jeffery's ammo to pull the bullets on."

More importantly though is the factory bullet "punch" crimps on the Kynoch 505 Gibbs case (it had 3) and the factory 500 Jeffery (it had 6) to stop bullet set back. Kynoch knew better than to rely on neck tension and a roll crimp. But no question they were resting the base of the .505 Gibbs solid on the cordite.

I have pulled a few .505 Gibbs with cordite that I keep around the shop for show and tell. Cordite is interesting stuff. Think uncooked thin spaghetti pasta for those that haven't see it.

Cordite texture and two of the .505s "punch" crimps should be slightly visable. They dissapear on a fired case.



When I was working on my .505 I talked with Harold Wolfe (most recent German advocate of the .500 Jeffery) and Art Alphin about the Jeffery (who had an orginal 1928 Jeffrey's print (note it is not a Schuler print) for the ".500 Jeffery" loaded with 95 grains of cordite and a 535gr bullet @ 2300fps.
(reference 1996 A-Square manual)

12/15 years ago no one could even agree on the print to be used (English/German) for the 500 Jeffery/Schuler so I suspect (my guess nothing more) is Kynoch loaded Cordite initially (1920+) and the Germans loaded smokeless until they stopped production before WWII.

Records show only 23, .500 Schuler/ Jeffery built by Jeffery. In his Mauser Sporting Rifle book, Jon Speed says less than 30 total between 1921 and 1940. The rest were German, continental or US rifles (more likely 505 Gibbs in the US though and no recored of an early 500 Jeffery from the US).

Cordite production ceased in the United Kingdom, around the end of the 20th century, (1999) with the closure of the last of the World War II cordite factories. So anything is possible. FWIW cordite was cut by length. I'd venture that even in cordite the Jeffery would out perform the Gibbs, if only barely. In 1948 John Taylor listed the Jeffery as 95gr of smokeless, 535 @ 2400fps, 16 ton of pressure. The 505 Gibbs as 90gr of smokeless 525 @ 2300, 15 ton pressure.

Jeff ez:

quote:

I don't believe the germans used cordite to any large extent, right? So I would believe the schuler was never loaded with it, though kynock may have...

i am fairly certain that the jeffe wasn't loaded with cordite....

Germans did not use cordite in the Schuler. I would have to believe Alphin and his 1924 English Jeffrey's print for the 500 Jeffrey which gave a Kynoch cordite load.

With Kynoch loading cordite I would bet that the hunters bought the ammo appropriate for their perspective rifles....12.7x70 if had a German gun and 500 Jeffrey if it was an English gun.

Worth noting as well that John Taylor used three different 500 Jeffries and never mentioned the 12.7x70 in his writing.

On further inspection Taylor also says he does not know what type of powder is used in either the .505 or the 500.

He goes on to say that "the quickest way to commit suicide was to use British ammo in a German Mauser". After WWI Kynoch standardised ammo production and became a (if not the) major supplier of British ammo. Between the wars Kynoch still loaded cordite in many of the big bore calibers as well as more the fine grain modern styles of nitrocellulose powders.

Taylors friend Jamison had killed over 300 elephants with his custom 500 Jeffrey and Taylor mentions that by 1948 500 Jeffrey ammo production had already ceased. With no mention of the 12.7x70 from Taylor's own use of the 500 Jeffery I would assume he was shooting English ammo (Kynoch) labeled 500 Jeffrey...and cordite loaded.

Just when you think there is a pattern here Taylor mentions specifically of seeing German manufactured ammo for the 500 Jeffrey. (page 324)

Certainly no clear answer there on the 500 Jeffrey from Taylor.

Jon Speed's book offers some interesting insights.

On page 230/231 of "Original Oberndorf Sporting Rifles" Speed writes about the first English Jeffrey .500s built in 1927 and shows a picture of a 1928 English .500 Jeffery rifle proofed with "nitro". Nitro could just as easily be cordite as stick/flake at that time. The Art Alpin, Jeffery's "cordite print" is from 1924. Schuler and Krieghoff had been building the 12.7x70 already for several years.(since 1924) But interesting enough in the book for that particular .500 rifle it does not show or give the load/regulation/max info typically stamped on the side of the barrel on an English gun.

Vintage ammo info from Speed's book:

British Kynoch .500 Jeffrey (12.7x 70 Schuler) ammo is listed at 535gr @ 2300fps and 42,000 lbs/in2 chamber pressure.

German RWS and DWM lists the 12.7x70 Schuler as 535gr @ 2400fps and 48,000 lbs/in2.

Pressures listed by the manufactures and velocity differences make me think it might well have been the difference between the newest German flake/stick powders and cordite on the loading data.

Opinions, thoughts or a reference you can add?

Are there any pictures and specs around of the original 23 rifles? are any of them still in existence and being used?

I'll watch this thread with great interest and hope it fills up with pics as well.

Red

Where is Alf when you need him?
Alf is one of my favorite cart historians here but he has been AWOL for months.

Speed's book shows one. But I would suspect a few more out there. The one that is documented well was restocked recently by Dave Miller and is a Jeffery serial number, SN63348. It was sold by the Army & Navy Distrutors and not Jeffery interesting enough. Good pictures in the Mauser book of that rifle in original form and how it was restocked/refinished. Looks to be done so it could be hunted with again by the looks of it. Certainly not a historically correct refinish. Good on the owner!

Typically the Jeffery's had a full size shank barrel with a shallow taper (heavy) and 24", although Jamison's was special ordered at 26". Weight on the 24" guns Taylor listed as 10.25 to 10.5#. Jeffery's guns were 3 rounds in the mag, one in the tube for a total of 4 without a big drop box mag. The original Schuler's on the other hand were a single stack magazine and a big drop box below the trigger guard.

Sadly it is anyone's guess how the original Schuler and Krieghoff 12.7x70 rifles faired during WWII and after. But Speed does show one original Schuler in 12.7x70.

quote:

Originally posted by Dago Red:
Are there any pictures and specs around of the original 23 rifles? are any of them still in existence and being used?

I'll watch this thread with great interest and hope it fills up with pics as well.

Red

Well there must be at least 1 original Schuler and at least 3 original Jeffrey's as these were originally in Aust before going OS.

I believe but have never seen it of my original 505 Gibbs next to an original 500 Jeffrey - would love to get a copy of that photo.

Am looking forward to this thread.

.

I was thinking, it would be great to have a website that was nothing but pics of fine guns both modern and historical for reference and drooling. for instance, I saw a 25" barreled, color cased magnum mauser, 505 gibbs that jerry fisher built. can't find my pics, but I only had the right side of it. would love to see a gallery of that one and many others.

Red

quote:

Originally posted by Dago Red:
I was thinking, it would be great to have a website that was nothing but pics of fine guns both modern and historical for reference and drooling. for instance, I saw a 25" barreled, color cased magnum mauser, 505 gibbs that jerry fisher built. can't find my pics, but I only had the right side of it. would love to see a gallery of that one and many others.

Red

A fair few exist on the NE Forum. NE created a forum where people upload pics of the rifles.

Here is a start on a few modern .500 Jefferys

I have a new Heym 500 Jeff ordered from none other than Mr. "new guy" (Chris) here on the forums. That gun is SWEET! I had previously bought a new 404 Jeff from him (same gun- Heym) and loved it so much that I ordered the 500. Those 2 bolt guns are so awesome and fit me like a glove. Rebated rim be damned, that Heym loads and shucks those cases like any 30-06. I put one of those Tijicon 1x5x30mm "both eyes open" scopes on it....mere childs play to hit anything anywhere to 100 yards...FAST. Seems to have that "fatter forearm" that Taylor wrote about.

Gary
DRSS
NRA Lifer
SCI

We were having a nice discussion on if the 500 jeffe was cordite loaded .. I think the schuler almost certainly was not, and before and after the wars, i would speculate that kynock loaded the 500 jeffe with german flake powder -- there not being many of the guns, and most men at war, one could think that a small supply of powder would fill all those needs.

further, since the gibbs couldn't match the jeffe with the gibbs being loaded with cordite, it raises some interesting talking points.. did kynock just load down the 500 jeff to whatever could be done with cordite?

after all, it would obviate the gibbs if the jeff could be loaded with the same powder and get better results.

just food for thought

and just because 2A thinks it was doesn't prove it to me.. remember, he thought the coilchunk stock was a good idea.

quote:

He goes on to say that "the quickest way to commit suicide was to use British ammo in a German Mauser".

Only way this can make sense...due to Brit gunmakers solely using commercial M98 Mauser actions for their big bore rifles till the commercial avilability of the P14 action...would be due to the Brits traditional inability to utilize a single standard for a cartridge and relating chamber...contrary to the German gunmakers...until forced to do so by CIP standardization. Think here of the issues relating to the 404 Jeffery as well as the 450/400 Jeffery cartridges.

Don't know why I bothered...but when the thread started I did an extensive internet search and finally ran across an Eastern European website page that actually compared the CIP 500 Jeffery cartridge specs to a copy of the actual Schular cartridge specs. Unfortunately I didn't print the internet page so this is off the top of my head...

Best of my recollection the differences between the two cartridges is the 12.7x70mm Schular had a 0.002" smaller shoulder diameter and a 5º greater shoulder angle along with slighter longer relating neck length (much like the Ackley of a 30-06) than the 500 Jeffery. So a Schular cartridge would easily chamber in a Jeffery chamber while a Jeffery cartridge might not chamber in a Schuler chamber...obviously depending upon the actual specs of the loaded Jeffery cartridge.

Again this is off the top of my head but perhaps someone from the European community could find a valid referencable website for our use.

Regarding the comment above re the "rebated rim" of the 500J.

Having seen a few custom 500J's made, I would say that comments relating to the rebated rim are by those gunsmith's that can't make it work when it can obviously be done without the use of the internal clips or whatever they were called.

Jeff you are truely speculating on the cordite/flake powders in the 500 Jeffery loads.
No argument that 12.7x70 was not loaded with cordite. But it seems .500 Jeffrey ammo is not 12.7x70 German ammo.

Any sort of professional reference you care to back your speculation that cordite was not loaded in .500 Jeffery ammo?

I don't think Art Alpin would state in print (the 1996 A2 reloading manual) that he and Dave Mason of Clymer had an original 500 Jeffery print from 1928 and a cordite load unless they truely did. You claiming other wise without some evidence to support your own theories isn't worthy of a grown up conversation.

A quick historical reference will show the lack of powder on all fronts during WWI. But the .500 Jeffery is a 1924 to 1940 cartridge until revived at the end of the 20th century.

Little more google and this popped up while I was searching.

Here is a link for more on both versions. the .500 and the 12.7x70. Gun Digest 2011. Page 101 story by James Tucker. Short version is the Schuler 12.7x70 and the 500 Jeffery are two totally different cartridges and that the .500 Jeffery was loaded with cordite according to original Jeffery's historical data. Three credible sources now Alpin, Mason and Dave Little at Kymnamco all with access to original W.J. Jeffery documents.

http://books.google.com/books?...mm%20Schuler&f=false

"the quickest way to commit suicide was to use British ammo in a German Mauser".

I'd bet that comment was from the experience of putting .500 Jeffery ammo into a German 12.7x70 and having a case rupture.

Case closed imo...the .500 Jeffery did indeed use Cordite. The Schuler 12.7x70 used a german flake powder. The original ammo is not interchangable....just as John Taylor wrote in 1948

a great read -- though i don't agree with all of it, it certainly adds something to think about, since neither where CIP'ed for 70+ years.

i think its worthy of a conversation, grownup or not --

I've written to Roberts, the succesor to jeffery, and to Manson (note: of Manson reamers, not of Clymer.. Kiff is clymer) asking for more information.


let's see if we get a response --

its my opinion, and that plus 3 bucks will get you a coffee at starbucks, that it wasn't loaded with cordite AT 2400 fps...

let's see in a day or so when they respond

RDB,
the case wouldn't rupture in this case .. it would fireform, exactly like an AI round.. and there's at least 3 prints of the 500 jeffe floating around .. this I have personally discussed with manson, davidson, and jason of czusa.

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
the case wouldn't rupture in this case .. it would fireform"

Depends on the quality of the brass doesn't it and if the case was too long or too short? Which is why head space and trimming brass is so important. Manson used to work at Clymer iirc when the A2 info was printed...'96 info after all.

quote:

there's at least 3 prints of the 500 jeffe floating around

Certainly were 15 years ago. And the single biggest reason I dropped the idea of a .500 Jeffery and went to a wild cat .50. Only one "true" version now after the standard was set by CIP in '98.

Is the true version accepted now the same as the 23 originals? if so, and those were the ORIGINALS, where did the other variations come from?

Red

The Norma ammo has to be @ CIP standard. Just as the the new Kynoch would be.

Current Kynock .500 Jeffery ammo


The Norma stuff is pictured and has the less sharp shoulder of the original Jeffery's.

there's 3 accepted drawings of the jeff -- and A2 uses one, and CZ used another.. wanna guess what happened.

RDB,
In THIS CASE, and with this case, rupture is highly unlikely, as its been dont for 80 decades and of all the detrements to the jeff, bursting cases isn't one of them, is it?

there's more prints on the 404 than the 500 .. odd, same company, and while you CAN get a case wall seperation after repeated firings (had it happen to me, in fact) cases bursting and killing people? not so much.

you are correct, though, there's lots and lots of interesting data out there....

as I said, i emailed those who have a vested interested.. perhaps they'll reply

on norma being CIP -- yes, perhaps.. but reamer makers in the US don't have to be.. they don't even have to be SAAMI, unless they are a SAAMI member .. remember, SAAMI is a close held org here, with NO, repeat, ZERO offical powers ...

and, of course, the new kynock is bertram brass .. and, well, its bertram ...

12.7x70 won't chamber in a .500 Jeffery chamber.

But Jeffery ammo will chamber and fire in a sharp shoulder original 12.7x70 chamber.

Pretty much the description of what happens when I fire form my .505 brass now. What happened between 1924 and 1940 with either the guns or the ammo I have no clue other than what I have read so any thing past that is speculation.

Not a Jefferys but a similar design.

I have fired hundreds of .505/450 Dakotas that look like the Jeffery shoulder going in and look like the Schuler shoulder coming out with little loss in accuracy and no issues that would indicate high pressures. Although the fire formed case is a bit bigger in volume when I am done, still easy to resize and reload and no trimming required.

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:


on norma being CIP -- yes, perhaps.. but reamer makers in the US don't have to be.. they don't even have to be SAAMI, unless they are a SAAMI member .. remember, SAAMI is a close held org here, with NO, repeat, ZERO offical powers ...

And that is the biggest problem - US manufacturers not sticking with a standard now that their is one.


re the other variations / new comers on the block - ie Harold Wolfe and his Non rebated rim version, well IMHO it just confuses the issue even more and i don't think achieves anything worthwhile.

(The above does not include AI type wild cats / blow outs etc).

.

quote:

Originally posted by 500N:
...new comers on the block - ie Harold Wolfe and his Non rebated rim version, well IMHO it just confuses the issue even more and i don't think achieves anything worthwhile.

I agree 100%. After email exchanges with Wolfe and Alpin 10+ years ago I finally gave up and decided to build my own "hot rod". Might as well, everyone else was doing it and calling it a .500 Jeffery. Thought if I was careful I might even be able to shoot the thing for less money when I was done. Turns out I could.

Once you have brass, bullets and dies does it matter what the "official" chamber print is?

okay, so does CZ use the same specs as Norma? will those two at least work together?

And just to clarify, handloaded, isn't the 505 gibbs hotter? or to be more specific, can't you get equal performance with lower pressure?

Red

quote:

Originally posted by RDB:

quote:

Originally posted by 500N:
...new comers on the block - ie Harold Wolfe and his Non rebated rim version, well IMHO it just confuses the issue even more and i don't think achieves anything worthwhile.

I agree 100%. After email exchanges with Wolfe and Alpin 10+ years ago I finally gave up and decided to build my own "hot rod". Might as well, everyone else was doing it. Thought if I was careful I mght even be able to shoot the thing for less money when I was done. Turns out I could.

Once you have brass, bullets and dies does it matter what the "official" chamber print is?

Last question first - No, it doesn't when it comes to hot rods.


The problem is in the commercial side - gun makers, ammo makers etc etc, that's when
standards need to be maintained. 404J is a prime example as someone has already mentioned.

And as I pointed out, adding a rim was not going to solve anything except make it easier
to feed for a gunsmith who couldn't be fucked getting the non rebated rim to feed which
is not that hard talking to gunsmiths here who have done it.

And so now 2 guns exist with the full rim version, but I doubt many more.


At least with others, even with the SLIGHT variations, you could still get brass and dies and make it fit. After all, it's no difference between that and the old double rifles we buy where chambers are invariably slightly different and we fuck around for a while until we get the cases resized to fit that particular gun.

Anyway, rant over !!! LOL

Agreed..silly not to have it simple on a almost 90 year old cartridge.

Gibbs? Yes, hotter if you hand load as it is the bigger case. But Gibbs is limited to .505 cal 525g and 600g bullets unless you make your own.

Any commercial production .500 Jeffery (CZ for example) should load and fire Norma or Kynoch factory .500 Jeffery ammo no problem. If it doesn't I'd bet they will fix it so it can, damn quickly.

.500 Jeffery is a .510 bullet. If you hand load you could go heavier as bullets are available if they will fit your action/chamber.

535g or 600g being the norm.

Re 600gn Bullet - who needs anything else ?

The 505 Gibbs (525gn) and the 500J (535gn)
were both under weighted as far as bullets go
and in the field, the 600gns definitely pack
a bigger punch - although hit any big buff in
the right spot with either and it kills.

The prob is always Magazine length on the 500J
as a lot of them were built on the Standard Mauser.

.

No arguement from me on the 600s. Great SD in either .505 or .510.

Both calibers made their reputaions on the light for caliber 525 and 535 bullets. Both were known, are known, to flatten both buff and ele. with solids.

Not much will slow down a 600 solid from either.

I'd love to hear some actual shooting reports of the 600 PP softs in either claiber.

quote:

Originally posted by RDB:
No arguement from me on the 600s. Great SD in either .505 or .510.

Both calibers made their reputaions on the light for caliber 525 and 535 bullets. Both were known, are known, to flatten both buff and ele. with solids.

Not much will slow down a 600 solid from either.

I'd love to hear some actual shooting reports of the 600 PP softs in either claiber.

And that't the thing - they MADE their (good) reputations using the smaller bullets so the 600gns are just a better thing, unlike some cartridges which needed a better bullet or a heavier bullet before they came into their own.

Re the 600PP's, my original 505 Gibbs was used to test the pre procuction one's - shit it was fun, Mass slaughter of buffalo. They worked well - I will say in general that PP bullets need the velocity kept up or need to hit something (resistance) to really open up - but then again, that's why they were designed that way.

An example re resistance - or lack of - and how it can affect bullet effect on an animal. We were going along, saw a limping cow, skinny as hell so cut her out of the mob (don't like shooting near the mob as they know what's up next time !!!).

Eventually she stopped just off the track in the scrub. I ran in, hot here HIGH shoulder, she took off running, fired 2 more shots which hit in front in a straight line 4 - 6 inches in front of the first.

Anyway, she stopped after the third one hit here, so I hit here again - and she still didn't drop so put a head shot finisher into her head.

Anyway, what this showed was NOT bullet failure but 1. I was a bit high on the first and subsequent shots but more importantly, because she was thin and had no muscle bulk, their was very little if any "shock" effect that you normally get from a + 50 cal rifle.

I had hit well built buff in similar spots and the animals were well hit and generally either fell over or at least stopped from running.

Anyway, enough of me crapping on !!!

.

500N, please give us more. Good to hear what these guns will do on game animals.

An original Gibbs? Pictures? Please

quote:

Originally posted by RDB:
500N, please give us more. Good to hear what these guns will do on game animals.

that's one thing we have over the US and other places, the ability to shoot lots of larger game with guns - feral and game species !!!

.

The 505 was one of the original 39 or soemthing like that.

Found this ..from the owner of one of the original .500 Jeffery's, on the Nitro Express forums...just wish the pictures were still available.

"If your only source of info is from Hatari times then you are behind on the 500 Jeffery and 500 Schuler.

The original Kynoch drawings and chamber casting of the 500 Jeffery differ to the original 500 Schuler chamber and I will show you how they differ.

There is no doubt that Jefferey's 500 was a Schuler crib but when Jeffery asked Mauser to chamber their 21 rifles and the 3 built for Gibbs their chamber dimensions were different to the Schuler.

So here are the critical dimensions: look at the date on these drawings: This is also the spec accepted by CIP for the 500 Jeffery.

this is an original Schuler drawing:

This is the critical dimensions drawings showing why CIP accepted the 500 Jeffery as different to the Schuler.

So if in doubt:

Here is rifle number 5 of 21 delivered on 9 May 1928 from H leonard & co to Jeffery then sold to Abercrombie & fitch of 7th Ave New york, now residing in my safe

Here is one of the original Fletcher Jamieson 500 Jeffery rounds loaded by Kynoch for Fletcher, he later pulled the bullets with a plier and the marks can be seen on the bullet. This ammo was specially made for the last Jeffery rifle built by Leonard for Jeffery.

This is the first newly made 500 Jeffery ammo made for the 50th commemoration of Land Rover vehicles for the special rifles made to commemorate Land Rover.

It is this ammo batch made to spec from chamber castings from a 500 Jeffery rifle known as the Van der Bijl rifle out of Rhodesia that prompted the reseach that lead to CIP accepting the CIP spec for the Schuler and the 500 Jeffery as being different."


Not like that helped clear anything up but good additional info either way.

quote:

Originally posted by RDB: Opinions, thoughts or a reference you can add?

Ludwig Olson in his book Mauser Bolt Rifles has this to say about the 12.7x70 (cal .500) Schueler.
"... it is interchangeable with the .500 Jeffery Rimless, a British cartridge for heavy African game ...... according to a German source, the 525gr (sic) bullet of this round travelled 2493 ft. sec. at 27.3 yds from the muzzle, and the energy was 7230 ft. lbs."

Strangely he, or his German source, refers to a 525gr bullet (which is the weight for the 505 Gibbs) but further on in his book, the table of Ballistics for British Mauser Cartridges lists the .500 Jeffery with the 535gr bullet at 2400 fps and 6800 ftlbs.

Assuming the 525gr is in fact a typing error, Olson's writing does indicate that while the 12.7x70 Schueler and .500 Jeffery are interchangeable, they are regarded as different cartridges and distinct from just being foreign loadings of the other as say the 10.75x73 is of the .404 Jeffery. Olson makes this distinction for the latter cartridge by stating that the .404 Jeffery was a British development with German loadings for this cartridge being referred to as 10.75x73.

quote:

Cordite production ceased in the United Kingdom, around the end of the 20th century, (1999) with the closure of the last of the World War II cordite factories. So anything is possible. FWIW cordite was cut by length.

As I'm sure that we all know there are different cordites! It isn't all the same!

It is measured by size. 3, 4, 5, etc for the solid strands (being 3/100ths, 4/100ths of an inch) or by two number if a hollow strand (5/2 being 5/100ths with a 2/100ths of an inch hole).

Cordite production in the UK stopped certainly by the end of the 1960s with the scrapping of sporting rifle cartridge production by Imperial Chemical Industries aka ICI (the parent company of Kynoch) in Birmingham.

So whatever you do do don't substitute cordite by weight in say a 470 with the same weight of cordite taken from a 303...they aren't necessarily the same cordite!

Jeff may well be more correct than I first thought. My sincere apologies are offered. I'm sure not going to be able to prove it either way with the references I have found or info I have been sent recently.

Interesting I did get an email back from Art Alphin @ A2 today. He declined to give any info on the history or acknowledge his having a "1928 Jeffery's print".

His reply, "Over the last 14 years, many things have changed. CIP has made a concerted
effort to standardize the .500 Jeffery. Under the leadership of their new director, Marc Pirlot, they have done so. I would suggest that you contact the CIP and purchase the current correct drawing from them."

When pressed for info on the historical print I was told he "didn't have the time". Interesting as the Jeffery's document, if it does exist, would seem to be a important piece of .500 Jeffery and shooting history.

Then a private message from an original owner of a .500 Jeffery. Don't know the fellow but his info certainly is interesting. I've asked to share his emails in public. If he approves I'll post the full conversation.

It started like this:

"The 500 Jeffery in original form was never loaded for in Britain by Kynoch nor loaded with stick nitro until 1999....."

On a fun note...I got this..

"Steve is away hunting at the moment in Uganda but I can tell you he is still using
his .500 and loves it. (I'm Susan, his other half, by the way).

It started life many years ago, as a .416 Weatherby which he did not find good
enough for buffalo charge situations. He had it converted to a .500 Jeffery by Sabie
Rifles in Nelspruit. By the time they'd finished with it though it was virtually a
completely new rifle. You can see pictures of it on www.shakariconnection.com in the
firearms section.

Steve will be back in a week or so, so please feel free to contact him for further
information.

Kind Regards
Susan Robertson"

In gist, what I received from Manson is that he didn't have any original docs, and recalls that it was originally loaded with flake, but MAY have been, due to obvious need, loaded for sometime with cordite .. but that's speculation, as there could have been plenty of powder for the limited amount of ammo needed.

wihtout a doubt, it was originally loaded with flake -- but COULD have been loaded with cordite as an expident ...

This is the best info yet I have seen on the .500 Jeffery. Not vetted in any way by me and published with the author's permission who wishes to remain anonymous for personal reasons.

Although a bit confusing to me in places we
both wholeheartedly agree that this info should be in the public domain.

This is a great piece of .500/12.7x70 history and I am greatful for the info, thank you.

Our email exchange and follow up question/answers as follows:

"The 500 Jeffery in original form was never loaded for in Britain by Kynoch nor loaded with stick nitro until 1999 when at the behest of a joint South African venture the 500 Jeffery was resurrected in the form of the “Land Rover Rifles” and Kynamco was asked to load for the Jeffery.

As this was to be done in a CIP signatory country it meant that specs for the 500 Jeffery were to be submitted to CIP and to this end using original Kynoch drawings for the 500 Jeffery and drawings for the 12.7 Schuler the two cartridges were registered as separate entities.

They are / were indeed always separate entities as the shoulder dimensions will show.

Kynoch however never loaded for the 500 Jeffery nor did any other British firm, the ammo was imported by Leonard for the Jeffery rifles from Gecado in Germany.

The finished rifles were also proofed with this supplied ammo and Leonard’s name appears on the original proof entries at Birmingham.

(drawing BK 82 of Aug 21 1928 for ICI metals LTD Birmingham for the 500 Jeffery ) and ( drawing 466 for DAG ( Dynamit Aktien Gesellschaft / Nobel ) date ? for the 12.70 x70 Schuler )

The original 500 Jeff drawing called for a Boxer primed case “small cap “ ie large rifle sized primer and the 500 Schuler used a large cap Berdan Primer.

The ammo supplied for the 500 Jeffery was Loaded by Gecado formerly known as GC Dornheim of Suhl which started out as the B Stahl ammo company , as was the Schuler.

The Jeffery headstamp simply read Gecado and and a single star at the 6 o’clock position with the standard LR primer. The base of the Jeffery and Schuler had a beveled edge unlike any of our modern cartridges.

The Schuler HS read 500 Schuler with Gecado and a large cap primer or a later 500 Schuler with a small cap primer.

The powder used in the 500 Jeffery was cited as “German Flake” and the word “Normal” appears on the original proof tab on the right side of the front bridge of the Original 24 rifles in 500 jeffery.

There is some speculation as to the significance of the word “Normal” as there was a Normal powder company at the time of manufacture. The cartridge or caliber per se does not qualify under what was known at the time as a "normalized" caliber.

There are two entries at Birmingham for the 500 Jeffery, one for the original 24 rifles and another for a double rifle using a heavier 577 gr bullet.

The first entry is for 24/05/1937 ammo supplied by Leonard the finisher of all the 500 Jeffery rifles. Ie Gecado ammo with 116 gr German Flake and the 533.6 gr bullet.

The second entry dated 23 Nov 1937 was also signed by Leonard and was called the 500 German Rimless Proofed with a 577 gr bullet and 116 gr german Flake powder. This clearly shows proof for Westley Richards The service load for the Double rifle was set as 105 gr for a 533 bullet and proof load of 116 gr German flake for the Proof load.

There is a footnote to the entry stating no cordite load known for this cartridge. The proofing was done for Westley Richards.

As a sidenote: The 505 Gibbs was never produced in flake powder only in stick nitro and using large cap Berdan Primer. Although the 505 Gibbs had a large capacity than the 500 Jeffery it was outperformed by the Jeffery because of the difference in propellants. The Latter being more efficient than the former.

With modern powders however the 505 should and does outperform the 500 jeffery.

As to chamber specs: this is where it gets really interesting.

There are two modern "accepted" chamber specs as per CIP, one for Jeffery and one for Schuler, the Jeffery can shoot in the Schuler but the Schuler cannot be shot from a Jeffery Chamber because of the shoulder dimension of the two cartridges. The neck dimension is the same but the shoulder dimension differs.

But now comes the kicker. The original 24 Jeffery rifles have a chamber spec that is different from both the CIP Jeffery and Schuler ( based on castings made of the chambers ) these rifles will shoot modern CIP jeffery ammo but not Schuler ammo ! and what is more original Triebel and Clymer reamers these are pre 1999 manufacture and the source of most custom guns built before CIP acceptance also differed from each other as well as the now accepted CIP spec."

my question
"Thanks very much for the info. Much appreciated.

So you don't believe the Alpin/Mason 1928 Jefferys data/print obviously of an English loading with Cordite?

"Here is one of the original Fletcher Jamieson 500 Jeffery rounds loaded by Kynoch for Fletcher, he later pulled the bullets with a plier and the marks can be seen on the bullet. This ammo was specially made for the last Jeffery rifle built by Leonard for Jeffery."

Can you clarify the statement? Kynoch did or did not load ammo between the wars and with what powder if they did, first stated on the BE forums?

Also:
"500 Jeffery does not equal 500 Schuler!
Historically likely both derived from Schuler as designer but the earliest Kynoch drawing differs from the earliest Schuler drawing and based on this CIP have accepted the 500 Jeffery as a separate cartridge from the Schuler."

What early Kynoch prints and when? Load data on them?

thanks for your time.[/b]

response:

"a mistake, Fletcher Jamison's ammo was Gecado, I personally handled the remainder of the ammo at Bennie Laubscher's in Paarl.

Fletcher pulled all the bullets and apparently removed some of the powder to reduce the loads.

The Kynoch drawing is drawing # BK 82 of 21 august 1928, that is archived at Birmingham and I got a copy from them.

The Earliest drawing of a Schuler that I could find is drawing #466 for DAG and that was archived with RWS. The date is in 1940.

The load data for the Jeffery was 116 gr German Flake ? Now this is where the data is missing because if it's from the Normal powder company it could be anything...... my sense is that it may likely have been Dynamit Nobel powders

116 gr on a 533 gr bullet.

I have a table with all the different dimensions of the various 500's in it's varying modern and original forms.

Casey Lewis did a serosafe casting of one of the original 500s for comparison.

I have now handled 3 original 500's including my own.

The problem that we have with many modern publications on the histories of old cartridges is that they are more than often poorly researched. The internet sadly often propagates this practice as data is not vetted.

They are in essence a rehashing of errors often originally published in books like Cartridges of the World.

Even books written by hunters of old such as Bell's own works contradict themselves, which in itself is not a huge problem as one could forgive poetic licence errors or that an author may have forgotten detaille over time.

However when it comes to factual data that influences collectors value of say firearms then I think we owe it to ourselves to stick to fact.

The 500 Jeffery and even the 404 Jeffery sadly suffers at the hand of this practice. The Great Craig Boddington for instance in error rehashes COW's date of origen for the 404 as 1909 when in fact we know that the cartridge was introduced in 1905...... this may not seem to a big train smash but if you own a low Serial number Mauser Jeffery in 404 Built at the onset of production dates influence collectors value.

As to the stuff I have given here by all means use it...... As a sidebar, I have huge interest in all things shooting and try always to back my statements with reference to source of the information. For instance I have a copy of the Jeffery numbers with their corresponding Mauser Numbers off all 21 Jeffery Rifles built in 500 Jeffery as well as the 3 Rifles built for George Gibbs. "

Dane,
Glad to see this stated again:

************************************************
"The 500 Jeffery and even the 404 Jeffery sadly suffers at the hand of this practice. ... COW's date of origen for the 404 as 1909 when in fact we know that the cartridge was introduced in 1905...... this may not seem to a big train smash but if you own a low Serial number Mauser Jeffery in 404 Built at the onset of production dates influence collectors value."
************************************************

Yes, the .404 Jeffery was the first, and still is the best bolt action DGR.

However, the .500 Jeffery is indeed an historical "train smash" well worth some "accident investigation."
The .500 Jeffery eats the dust of your .505 Burns, and my 500 Mbogo.

Alf was our resident expert on the 500 Jeffery.
He pointed us to a BASA of RSA published monograph on the 500 Jeffery, about 1998 or 1999 ... having trouble with Photobucket at the moment, cheerio ...
Later,
Letter Rip

Thanks for driving that home -
So, to recap, if i may
the 500 jeffery was never loaded with cordite

the 500 jeffe is obviously derived from, and will fit in, a schuler chamber

2A was dead wrong and unwilling too provide documents that would confirm that the jeffe was never loaded with cordite, though he had published that it HAD been.

there's several "drawings" of the 500jeffe -- oddly, there's only 1 for the schuler .. and these various drawings are still causing problems today. in my humble opinion, "the" 500jeffery are the ones that would fit the chamber of one of the originals properly -- anything is suspect, regardless if that is the majority of rifles

and if 535gr at 2400 fps is the question, there's many answers, including one even smaller the 500 jeffe

BTW, good job asking Alf's permission for posting the PM, as sharingPM's without every in the PM agreeing, are a big no no.

See, RDB, it really was worth an adult conversation, wasn't it?

btw, again, the 10,75x68 also suffers from at least 2 drawings ,, CIP and Saami are DIFFERENT

Jeffe,
Agreed.
And the .500 Jeffery also eats the dust of the 500 Accurate Reloading.

Here is the diagram of shoulder variations
(which Alf was kind enough to post here previously)
and the cover of the 25-page mononograph
where it is found, from BASA.

Thanks Rip .

Great picture.. especially the bottom line..
"This explains why the 500 jeffery ammunition as produced by Kynock today, can but used in both CIP specification .500 Jeffery and 12.7x70 Schuler, but not vice versa"