quote:

Originally posted by Dago Red:
I was thinking, it would be great to have a website that was nothing but pics of fine guns both modern and historical for reference and drooling. for instance, I saw a 25" barreled, color cased magnum mauser, 505 gibbs that jerry fisher built. can't find my pics, but I only had the right side of it. would love to see a gallery of that one and many others.

Red

Here's my Schuler.


I will see what collector ammo I have around, if there are dimensional differences, but Kynoch 500Jeff does cycle through my gun.
There are a few 500 Schuler Jumbos around but I think there were just about 100 or so built IIRC.

Ah, yes, Schuler's Model "Jumbo" "... 60 cm langem Krupp-Stahl-Lauf mit ... 4 Patronenim Magazin ... Gewict der Buschse 5 kg."

Straight-stack-in-line-4-down-in-box!
That's the way to do it if you have to do a severely rebated ".500."
On a standard M98?

Here is how the Brits liked them.
The extreme left one might be the C.Fletcher Jamieson original .500 Jeffery, which had a 26" barrel ... "This rifle was completed and delivered to W.J. Jeffery by H. Leonard on the 15 July 1937."



10 years ago, it was in the possession of the son of C. Fletcher Jamieson, living in Stellenbosch, RSA.

"It is an engraved model No.2, Mauser magnum bolt action, cased .500 Jeffery's rifle No. 25554 with a 26 inch barrel bought from W.J. Jeffery by C. Fletcher Jamieson with engraved specially (sic) made for him and his name on it. It is a one off rifle completely different to all others as to front sight configuration with extra sights, cleaning kit, silver oil bottle all in a leather case."

From page 17 of the BASA monograph:

The original .500 Jeffery rifles numbered 24 and were sold between 1927 and 1940.
Barrels were 24" to 26".
Weight was listed as 10-1/4 pounds.
All built on the Mauser magnum action.
First 21 by Mr. H. Leonard of Birmingham,
last 3 of the 24 by George Gibbs Firm of Bristol, on order for Jeffery.

The only other British .500 Jeffery was a double rifle:
" ... made by Westley Richards in 1937 for a Mr. Gross."


Then the chaos of WWII and the dissolving British Empire ensued.

"... we sadly have to accept the fact that most of the original .500 Jeffery rifles have disappeared. They are probably the scarcest rifles on the collector's market and fetch very fancy prices if sold."

quote:

.......... The original .500 Jeffery rifles numbered 24 and were sold between 1927 and 1940 .......... Then the chaos of WWII and the dissolving British Empire ensued.

WWII actually started for Britain on 3 September 1939. There are some who would argue that the British Empire began dissolving long before then.

JP

Too bad ALF doesn't seem to be posting any more. He knows this caliber and Jeffery rifles backwards and forwards.

Also, JefferyDenmark knows a lot about this caliber, as he ran into big problems feeding his Heym Express in .500 Jeffery - before he figured out what would work and what would not.

It ain't all that complicated, nor cute, but obsessing over this ugly duckling pair gives some the nostalgic warm and fuzzies.

Just decide which you want to stick with, of the two CIP choices:

A-TEAM: 12.7x70 (500 Schuler)
May 15, 2002: cart. max. shoulder semi-angle = 19-degrees-57'-11"

or

B-TEAM: 500 Jeffery
May 15, 2002: cart. max. shoulder semi-angle = 12-degrees-36'-51"

Then just make sure your chamber matches your reloading dies,
and make sure your brass headstamp matches what is engraved on the barrel,
whatever you want to call it.

Chamber minimums are very slightly different.
See CIP specs.

Feeding frenzy is best dealt with by Schuler single stack.

The Romey Hybrid seems to be the current 500 Schuler CIP spec.



Better beltless choices:

.500 Van Horn Express
.505 Burns
.500 Accurate Reloading
.500 Mbogo

WWII actually started for Britain on 3 September 1939. There are some who would argue that the British Empire began dissolving long before then.

JP[/QUOTE]

Thanks for picking the fly poop out of that pepper!
Atrocious how imprecise the BASA authors were!!!

quote:

Originally posted by RDB:
Jeff you are truely speculating on the cordite/flake powders in the 500 Jeffery loads.

just applied logic, and a little educated guess -- which did turn out to be correct ...

quote:

Originally posted by RDB:

"the quickest way to commit suicide was to use British ammo in a German Mauser".

I'd bet that comment was from the experience of putting .500 Jeffery ammo into a German 12.7x70 and having a case rupture.

the knyamco (kynock name owner) drawing contradicts this, "nor is headspacing compromised since the jeffery profil coincides with the schuler/romey over the front third of the taper"

quote:

Originally posted by RDB:

Case closed imo...the .500 Jeffery did indeed use Cordite.

we agree this is an incoorect statement know, i belive

quote:

Originally posted by RDB:

The Schuler 12.7x70 used a german flake powder. The original ammo is not interchangable....

except for what field use and kynamco state .. the ONLY difference is a sublty in the shoulder angle .. which is less than the various drawings of the 404 and the 10,75x68

quote:

Originally posted by RDB:
just as John Taylor wrote in 1948

not questioning the redoubtable taylor, but we've seen sources, in this thread, that didn't pan out as accurately and cleanly as we might have hoped ...

so, there's never been a commerical loading of the jeffery with cordite, and the schuler can take all 3 major variations known ... and the only difference is a tweaking of shoulder angle ...otherwise the rounds are certainly the same ... of course, to a modern reloader, it doesn't make a bit of difference .. fire the brass and set your dies properly and forget about it .. while i haven't scavenged from cape town to cairo for a packet of 500s, i can only imagine that there's directly NONE available on the shelf ...

why rewrite this to close the loop? well, frankly, the attempts at shutting me up with "case closed" and "adult conversation" are pretty arrogant and annoying ...

too bad 2A didn't produce that cordite document, but its not the first time he's been wrong ... dead wrong

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:

quote:

Originally posted by RDB:
Jeff you are truely speculating on the cordite/flake powders in the 500 Jeffery loads.

just applied logic, and a little educated guess -- which did turn out to be correct ...

Jeff it appears you may take this thread and the info posted that supports your original speculation as gospel. I don't. Still too may unanswered questions imo.

[QUOTE]
On a standard M98?

QUOTE]

Yep. Std. length '98.
All the Jumbos I have seen are on the Std. length action.
That is a total of three rifles I have held including mine. Not many...
All three were pretty much the same. All three retailed through Lyon & Lyon in Calcutta and labeled as such on the barrel.

Here's one for sale right now:
Of course Basspro has no idea what it is...
http://finegunroom.basspro.com...tail&product_id=1248

quote:

Originally posted by RDB:
Jeff it appears you may take this thread and the info posted that supports your original speculation as gospel. I don't. Still too may unanswered questions imo.

Now you are just being petulant -- your own words and Kynamco's drawing clear this up beyound the shadow of a doubt ...

quote:

Originally posted by RDB:
This is the best info yet I have seen on the .500 Jeffery.

"The 500 Jeffery in original form was never loaded for in Britain by Kynoch...

Kynoch however never loaded for the 500 Jeffery nor did any other British firm, the ammo was imported by Leonard for the Jeffery rifles from Gecado in Germany.

The finished rifles were also proofed with this supplied ammo and Leonard’s name appears on the original proof entries at Birmingham.



The ammo supplied for the 500 Jeffery was Loaded by Gecado...

The powder used in the 500 Jeffery was cited as “German Flake” and the word “Normal” appears on the original proof tab on the right side of the front bridge of the Original 24 rifles in 500 jeffery.


500 German Rimless Proofed with a 577 gr bullet and 116 gr german Flake powder. This clearly shows proof for Westley Richards The service load for the Double rifle was set as 105 gr for a 533 bullet and proof load of 116 gr German flake for the Proof load.

There is a footnote to the entry stating no cordite load known for this cartridge. The proofing was done for Westley Richards.
...

But now comes the kicker. The original 24 Jeffery rifles have a chamber spec that is different from both the CIP Jeffery and Schuler ( based on castings made of the chambers ) these rifles will shoot modern CIP jeffery ammo but not Schuler ammo

So you don't believe the Alpin/Mason 1928 Jefferys data/print obviously of an English loading with Cordite?

Note- Neither Dave Manson nor 2A are supporting this position today

quote:

Originally posted by RDB:
"a mistake, Fletcher Jamison's ammo was Gecado,

The load data for the Jeffery was 116 gr German Flake ?

Ah, I can see part of the picture --

Bwana Dane,
I can see now that perhaps receiving feedback isn't your thing. The 7x57 mauser was NEVER called the 7 Rigby -- you might updated your thoughts on express rifles
http://www.burnscustom.com/sho...le=tools/mauser.html

its a 275 rigby, sir -- and its a direct anglo lift of the german 7x57 .. not even the slight shoulder change one finds on the jeffery vs the schuler .. ..

Also, if you consider MPI to be a good stock, that you've had good luck with (not the experience of those on AR -- unless by good luck, you mean good luck returning) then I might can understand some of your bias ..

hey, just for askings .. is this a classic or a push feed?


I guess that the additional .25 of a decent pad would tip this one all the way over to bad tastes, yeah?

quote:

Originally posted by Huvius:
Here's my Schuler.




There are a few 500 Schuler Jumbos around but I think there were just about 100 or so built IIRC.

Awesome Gun .. and about 5 times as many built as original jeffery's .. go figure that one..

So few 500 Jeffery guns were made in the hayday. Almost as rare as the 600 Nitro Express. I like Jeffeosso's 500 Accrel beter.

I see Bwana Dane is avoiding answering hard and direct questions .. here's a couple more

Say, I was thinking, Dane tends to speak widely and loadly, about things he really doesn't know about.

Say, Dane -- before you run your mouth again -- you have how many greater than 4500ft/lb guns OTHER than your own single wildcat? No offense, really, just trying to understand your broad experience in the matter, to talk with such authority ?

You don't even have to currently own them, you could have had them a couple months and moved them along, after reloading them, learning them, and understanding the ins and outs of them?

And, the ultimate question -- How many more than your 1 have you built? Not a peepsqueak .375 .. let's start with 458 winmag and move up from there, okay?

no one questions your skill as a pistol smith -- just want to hear a bit about your "creds" as a bigbore shooter ... "we" aren't impressed with a single bigbore wildcat as your basis for experience.

I do expect you've never even touched a 500 jeffe or a true 505 gibbs .. i could be wrong, but i doubt it

figures

"... no Cordite service load being known ..."
According to Mr. Greener and Mr. Leonard?

thanks and FANTASTIC Rip --

and the (normal) question is also answered.
Serevice
"116-1 FLAKE (normal) 533-6 grains"
means the NORMAL load is that

the PROOF Load should have been 533*1.2, or the struck through 640gr load, using the same (NORMAL) charge, as an alternate standard practice for proofing an action in England --

The (NORMAL) designation means "we proofed it with the standard charge and heavier bullet" rather than a higher pressure load with same bullet weight --

The notes even say this "Prove with {struckout} heavier bullet (@ service charge)

That they calculated the 640gr (which would have been proper) and then didn't use it is odd.

its as clear cut as if i was standing there.

Mr. Lernard stats no Cordite service loads known

quote:

Originally posted by RDB:
Jeff you are truely speculating on the cordite/flake powders in the 500 Jeffery loads.

i think we have proven that aducated guesses on the matter are accurate, do you agree?

quote:

Originally posted by RDB:

Any sort of professional reference you care to back your speculation that cordite was not loaded in .500 Jeffery ammo?

As there's NONE indicating it was every loaded with cordite, and plenty of sources saying never, i do believe we can reach a consesnse, right?

quote:

Originally posted by RDB:
I don't think Art Alpin would state in print (the 1996 A2 reloading manual)

as you yourself found, 2A is no longer standing behind that statement.

quote:

Originally posted by RDB:

You claiming other wise without some evidence to support your own theories isn't worthy of a grown up conversation.

this is a fairly insulting turn of phrase, do you wish to withdrawl it, at this point, as learning how the 500 was NEVER loaded with cordite, from contemporary sources, proves?

quote:

Originally posted by RDB:

A quick historical reference will show the lack of powder on all fronts during WWI. But the .500 Jeffery is a 1924 to 1940 cartridge until revived at the end of the 20th century.

This has no meaning and is self contradicting. The jeffery wasn't a cartridge durign WWI, and powder would have been available through 1938 -- and, as we have shown, has no bearing on anything. I'll put it simplely for you .. the gibbs case is so large as to USE CORDITE and not kill the user. The jeffery case is TOO SMALL to match the gibbs ballistics without huge pressure .. can't beat capacity for same powders and pressures

quote:

Originally posted by RDB:
Three credible sources now Alpin, Mason and Dave Little at Kymnamco all with access to original W.J. Jeffery documents.

2A backs away from the statement - Manson tells me he has no data either way, Richards says it was never loaded with Cordite, and Kynamco states it was never loaded by them in the period, even as kynock.

quote:

Originally posted by RDB:
"the quickest way to commit suicide was to use British ammo in a German Mauser".

I'd bet that comment was from the experience of putting .500 Jeffery ammo into a German 12.7x70 and having a case rupture.

pure conjecture, and disproved by CIP drawings of the 500 jeffery - Kynamco specifically states jeffery ammo in schuler to be safe

quote:

Originally posted by RDB:

Case closed imo...

I believe we find MIND to be closed, the case is now certainly well closed, that the jeffery was NEVER loaded with cordite, despite your repeated attempts to state it so.

quote:

Originally posted by RDB:

the .500 Jeffery did indeed use Cordite. The Schuler 12.7x70 used a german flake powder. The original ammo is not interchangable.

wrong, right, wrong

quote:

Originally posted by RDB:
...just as John Taylor wrote in 1948

gibberish ---

Bwana Dane,
when are you going to come back and address this, or have you abandoned AR rather than being able to face the facts as displayed?

ps, no one EVER called a 275 Rigby a 7mm Rigby

I would like to say thank you to RDB for starting this discussion, along with RIP and others for sharing their information and photos.

Without argument and debate, I dont think this much detail would have come out.

quote:

Originally posted by fourbore:
I would like to say thank you to RDB for starting this discussion, along with RIP and others for sharing their information and photos.

Without argument and debate, I dont think this much detail would have come out.

you are welcome
http://forums.accuratereloadin...511067731#8511067731

I am especially pleased to have settled the "normal" question for us, once and for all -- though we ended with my original supossition that the jeffe was never loaded with cordite -- nice to see it proved -- and being worthy of a grown-up conversation ...

what would be nice is if Bwana Dane (his own appelation) would come back

I have detailed info on the .500 in hand currently from Dave Manson, David Little @ Kynamco/Kynoch, Julious Glogovccsan, Col. Lewis, Paul Roberts, Jeffery, (the rifle makers past and present), including the 1928 and 1930 Jeffery's print.

There is no doubt by THEIR research or the other professionals involved in the debate during the late '90s that the .500 Jeffery was loaded by Kynoch, with English bullets, and CORDITE powder.

I have over 100 pages of research material from the above sources that just arrived. When I get the time I will add that knowledge base.

The short version of how Jeffery and Kynoch were involved is here:

http://books.google.com/books?...mm%20Schuler&f=false

Basic German brass, loaded with cordite and proven English bullets. The detailed English bullet drawings and spec's listed on this 1928 print are a major part of that evidence. The.500 Jeffery's reputation with English sportsmen was based on the Cordite loaded ammo at the lower velocity and pressures I cited previous. But most importantly that reputation was built on high quality and proven Kynoch bullets.

Bwana Dane,
Please read the second line in the "Reports, References, etc." Section in the WESTLEY RICHARDS 1934 document below.

I'll put it clearly in text for you
"Mr Lenard no Cordite source load being knwon"



Dave Manson specificly denies ANY knowledge of the 500 Jeffery being loaded with cordite -- he has no data.

Art Alpin won't bother researching it, as it will be yet another error in his book.

Your refernce to the google book, while a good reasd, has flaws, like everything created by humans.

Rapul Roberts isn't answering questions on the matter.

In short, sir, all EVIDENCE, including the 1934 westley proof load, indicates NO CORDITE LOAD KNOWN.

You are arguing with Greener and Lenard.

On this question of Cordite or Flake, surely someone recently has pulled an
original cartridge and can tell us what was inside ?

Or if they don't want to pull it, doesn't Cordite sound different
in the case than flake powder ?

From what I have been reading today of David Little's commentary Kynoch loaded the cordite set in the base of the basic brass then set a "a glazeboard disc of case body inside diameter to retain the strands at the base of the case and then the case was finally necked over the wad for bulleting".

Nothing to rattle. All the cases were the same head stamp (or just as likely, no head stamp) so the only way to actually tell would be by the bullets used which would need to be sectioned to do so.

There is more but that is some of it.

This info was personally provided by Dave Manson President of Manson Reamers and David Little, the Managing Director of Kynamco from July 1998 letters and the application (successful) for CIP adoption of the .500 Jeffery.

Also makes more sense now as to why some of the remaining original Jamison German ammo with flake had bullets pulled and was not shot.

quote:

Originally posted by RDB:
From what I have been reading today of David Little's commentary Kynoch loaded the cordite set in the base of the basic brass then set a "a glazeboard disc of case body inside diameter to retain the strands at the base of the case and then the case was finally necked over the wad for bulleting".

Nothing to rattle. All the cases were the same head stamp so the only way to actually tell would be by the bullets used which would need to be sectioned to do so.

There is more but that is some of it.

This info was personally provided by Dave Manson President of Manson Reamers and David Little, the Managing Director of Kynamco from July 1998 letters and the application (successful) for CIP adoption of the .500 Jeffery.

Also makes more sense now as to why some of the remaining original Jamison German ammo with flake had bullets pulled and was not shot.

except that you posted kynock NEVER loaded the 500 jeffe until 1999 -- well past cordite.. and you are arguing with Mr Leonard, the man that built the first 20+ 500 jeffes, when he states no KNOWN cordite load....

oh, yeah, they formed cases around cordite, sure enough.. like the 505 gibbs ..

quote:

Originally posted by RDB:
The 500 Jeffery in original form was never loaded for in Britain by Kynoch nor loaded with stick nitro until 1999....."

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
From page 17 of the BASA monograph:

The original .500 Jeffery rifles numbered 24 and were sold between 1927 and 1940.
....
First 21 by Mr. H. Leonard of Birmingham,

Thanks for the headsup on the 2011 Gun Digest Annual, I collect those, and some other pubs.
Here is Hoyem.

In 2005 Mr. Hoyem said that the 500 Jeffery was "... never loaded by Eley, Kynoch, or ICI."

Also on page 69, there is reference to that "95 grains" but it is "Swedish R-5 flake powder," not Cordite.

On page XV of the intro to the book is a list of various types of Cordite from 1888 to 1905 and later.

Cordite Mark I
Cordite MD
Cordite MDT
Cordite T
Cordite RBD
Axite
Ballistite
Amberite
Moddite
Neonite

Note that the "Cordite RBD" was "most likely not used in small arms ammunition."

If the 500 Jeffery was ever loaded with Cordite,
maybe it was of a variety known as "Luddite?"

OK, I have been holding out.
In the BASA Monograph by D.J. Lewis, on page 21, same page as the Kynamco Ltd drawing of the 3 shoulders,
there is a reference to Cordite loading of the 500 Jeffery (footnote #27):

Fleming, W. "British Sporting Rifle Cartridges", Amory (sic) Publications, Oceanside CA, ISBN 0-939683-11-3, 1993.

The "supposed" Cordite load reference is then followed up by author Lewis's statement that he pulled all the bullets in his "olde original" ".500" ammo, and found only flake powder.

Will have to find the Fleming book, don't have that one.

It seems possible some "irregular" loading of the .500 basic cartridge cases with Cordite could have been done experimentally back in the day, but no proof of it has been shown here.

The A-square reference to Cordite by Craig Boddington in 1996, predated the BASA monograph of early 2000.
Maybe Craig read Fleming's 1993 book?

It seems fairly certain that Schuler did the .500 first and collaborated with Jeffery in short order.
German loadings of the generic ".500" brass with flake powders instead of Cordite seems fairly certain,
formed to either Schuler spec or Jeffery spec.

quote:

This is the best info yet I have seen on the .500 Jeffery. Not vetted in any way by me and published with the author's permission who wishes to remain anonymous for personal reasons.

I simple quoted info I had never seen on the .500 Jeffery. Everyone with any real knowledge of the Jeffery also refered me to David Little, the Managing Director of Kynamco/Kynoch who in 1998 asked that CIP adopt the .500 Jeffery standards based on his (Kynamco's) research and historical findings. A number of folks were involved to get that done, most of who I have already listed.

The Managing Director of Kynamco said in print, as part of a successful CIP application, that the .500 Jeffery was loaded in England with Cordite, Kynoch bullets and unformed, basic German .500 brass.

As has already been noted much of the long standing and accepted .500 Jeffery info was incorrect originally and simply repeated over the last 80 years.

I love all the history stuff. Thanks for all the great info.
The extended pinky wrestling is fun too.
I can't help but think the 500's on the Rigby case is superior.
It would be interesting to do a long neck Jeffery say add another .2" or .25" with less rebate say only 15 thou like the Rum to feed and fire factory Jeffery ammo as well. Cases could be formed from 500 AHR or Gibs. The CZ in 500 Jeffery would be the ideal base for this with all that length to spare. Then you could have the best of all worlds nostalgia and modern.

boom stick,
Sounds like you are describing the 500 AHR?
Bertram is the only source for brass for it?
We need to go looking for Mr. Wolf's 500 Jeffery Improved spec's too.

RDB,
Why all the secrecy? Where's the beef, hiding in all this bun? Hemming and hawing and beating around the bush here is not very sporting.

quote:

Originally posted by RDB:
\that the .500 Jeffery was loaded in England with Cordite, Kynoch bullets and unformed, basic German .500 brass.

this another unvetted source?

Never happened-- Greener and Leonard, WHO WERE THERE, disagree with your made up stories.

Do you own a 500 jeffe, of ANY chambering?
yeah, didn't think so.

Are you really this thick?

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
Why all the secrecy?

Nothing intentionally secret on my part. A guy sent me a private email, which I asked to publish here, as he didn't want to.

When questions weren't answered to my satisfaction I simply went looking for other sources. I now have collected some where around 100 pages of historical drawing and info from recognised firearm industry professionals on the .500 Jeffery, the Jeffery ( Leonard) rifles, the 12.7 x 70 and the 500 Schuler.

I had thought I answered the original "cordite" question by the quoting Mr. Little directly from the CIP application, "Kynoch loaded the cordite set in the base of the basic brass then set a glazeboard disc of case body inside diameter to retain the (cordite) strands at the base of the case and then the case was finally necked over the wad for bulleting (Kynoch bullet)".

Get yourself a copy of the original .500 Jeffery CIP application and you can see for yourself just how confusing the history behind the .500 is. Wolf's .500 data is in there as well.

I find the history interesting but there are so many easier and cheaper ways to get that kind of .50 cal. performance today.

I really don't understand why the Gibbs and Jeffery are 2 of a few factory based .50s. $3.00 cases might be part of that ..which is why the Rigby cases seems to make more sense.

I swear AR is the Wikipedia of cartridges.
Rip
I would have to see if the 500 AHR is the same as the Jeffery just sans rebate and longer neck
Was thinking a 15 thou rebate would allow to feed both to have best of both worlds.

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
boom stick,
Sounds like you are describing the 500 AHR?
Bertram is the only source for brass for it?
We need to go looking for Mr. Wolf's 500 Jeffery Improved spec's too.

RDB,
Why all the secrecy? Where's the beef, hiding in all this bun? Hemming and hawing and beating around the bush here is not very sporting.

quote:

Originally posted by RDB:
...When questions weren't answered to my satisfaction I simply went looking for other sources. I now have collected some {modern} ....

and utterly overlooked the Leonard/Greener documents -- Which states, by the man that did the first 21 of them, that there is NO cordite load known.

of course that doesn't suit your intent, and you ignore it.

You, in fact, toute the 1999 drawing which, by your own source, DOES NOT MATCH THE 1928 chambers ..

Dane,
the man stating the 500 jeffe was formed around cordite misspoke, as that is how the gibbs is loaded. the gibbs case is MASSIVELY larger than the jeffery case, and you can not even COME CLOSE to the same vels and pressure.. by not close, i of course mean, not make anything like book -- the westly richards loads are well known for going 2350, rather than 2400 -- we ALL know that, dane ..


So, Bwana -- here's a question for you .. how many other, non-pistol, .499+" rounds do you have, other than your own single wildcat?


This is your chance to shut me up, sir ... right after you go correct your just-as-topical typo of calling the 275 rigby a 7mm rigby ...

you really need to clean that up, btw, and unless you've been to africa, you probably shouldn't self ID as "bwana" as you do on your website.

.500s.....Jeffery and AHR

RDB said:

"Get yourself a copy of the original .500 Jeffery CIP application and you can see for yourself just how confusing the history behind the .500 is. Wolf's .500 data is in there as well."

I would love to do that.
How do I do that?

RDB,
I have it!
I looked into my 500 Jeffery X-File,
and lo and behold I have a 1.37 MB printout...

Dated: 22.7.98 or 07/22/1998

"Dear Sirs

Ref 500 Jeffery Cartridge

Enclosed with this letter is an information pack on the above cartridge. Kynamco Limited are submitting to registration .500 for CIP Approval ..."

So the cover letter from David C. Little, Managing Director of Kynamco begins.

This was provided to me by a member here at AR.COM, from United Kingdom, back in 2006.
Many thanks to Jonathan!
I shall peruse it again and see what I missed.

BTW, Hatari Times No.1 had the big write-up on the .500 Jeffery Improved, by Harold Wolf and Tony Sanchez-Arino. They started their collaboration on that back in the 1980's.
Looks like the 500 Jeffery with non-rebated rim, same short neck,
and I am guessing about a 20-degree semi-angle shoulder, like the Romey-1997 Hybrid, 19.97-degrees, a Wildcat.

Done.
This provides no more information than the BASA Monograph by D.J. Lewis, who was actually quoting and paraphrasing Mr. Little.

Mr. Little supports his claim of Cordite loading by referencing Bill Fleming's 1993 cartridge book as noted above.
Foot note # 2 in this package: Look it up, please.
Mr. Little then goes on to explain the likely loading method with Cordite, quite hypothetically.
No factual, vetted source. Just a guess, is how I read Mr. Little's wording,
and a reference to Bill Fleming's claim of Cordite loading for the .500 Jeffery.
That is why I was not impressed with this "hypothesis" in 2006.

No new info!
Need W. Fleming book, the source that seems to have started the Cordite loading thing!

Another inconsistency in the Kynamco CIP application packet is that they refer to a 68-degree shoulder cone angle for the Romey "Wildcat" but show it as a 19.97-degree semi-angle in their drawing,
which would correspond to approximately 40-degree shoulder cone angle.

Gents:
When I was going through the Jeffery records for my book on the .600 it was interesting that the first .500 was three or four serial numbers after the last .600. As I looked through and photocopied some of the records it was interesting to see the evolution of calibers, their introduction, and others that were dropped. It would make a great article someday.
Cal