I've just been the recipient of some vigorous flaming by certain individuals (particularly one),who have explained to me that reducing the velocity of a bullet will increase it's penetration.

Naturally,I'm talking about equal size,weight as well as non-expanding solids.

I feel as though I have just visited an insane asylum.I honestly believe that I could visit a kindergarten and find more rational people.

You fellows with the 458 Lotts,etc,etc need to toss them aside.Get a 45/70 and shoot end to end through an elephant.

Does Garret give out drugs along with his ammo?If anyone who reads this is a Garret koolaid drinker,please don't respond....I don't want to hear from you.

Some people read too much into those Linebaugh penetration tests (I think that is where a lot of this started) where they shoot into tubs of wet newspaper as well Garrett's BS marketing featuring Vince Lupo and his stunt safaris. I have a 45/70 and a 450 Dakota. I wouldn't dream for a second that the 45/70, regardless of load, is in anywhere near the same league as my .450 or a .458 Lott, .458 Win Mag, .416 Rigby, etc for that matter. Real critters aren't made of newsprint. But, then again, there have been people on AR in the past who think shooting buffalo with a 45/70 and or a shotgun loaded with buckshot is a good idea so some people will believe anything.

Cheers,
Andy

quote:

I have a 45/70 and a 450 Dakota. I wouldn't dream for a second that the 45/70, regardless of load, is in anywhere near the same league as my .450 or a .458 Lott, .458 Win Mag, .416 Rigby, etc for that matter.

A common theme… You often will see those who one just a 45-70 as a large caliber disparage anything larger (or faster) and those who truly own both and understand the difference. 45-70 zealots depend on putting down larger/faster cartridges, but rarely that’s the case when they own something else.

adrook,

The sheer insanity is that I gave an excellent chance for rationale to appear by emphasizing in an example that if the exact same bullet (same caliber,same weight,same profile)and a premium solid that will not deform,will penetrate more when it's impact velocity is higher.

Even with this emphasis,the response was still the same lunacy......These people remind me of individuals who are on drugs or they are cult members where reality gets turned inside out.

yeah.. slow it down less than 2000 FPS and it penetrates more?

Perhaps, but not in THIS physical universe

http://www.470mbogo.com/PenetrationComparison.html

quote:

Originally posted by ray m:
adrook,

The sheer insanity is that I gave an excellent chance for rationale to appear by emphasizing in an example that if the exact same bullet (same caliber,same weight,same profile)and a premium solid that will not deform,will penetrate more when it's impact velocity is higher.

Even with this emphasis,the response was still the same lunacy......These people remind me of individuals who are on drugs or they are cult members where reality gets turned inside out.

LOL! I guess there is no reason for the Lott then . . .

the *we band of 45-70ers* are a fiesty bunch...

quote:

the *we band of 45-70ers* are a fiesty bunch...

If by "feisty" you mean completely irrational, then I can agree with that statement!

quote:

Originally posted by mrlexma:

quote:

the *we band of 45-70ers* are a fiesty bunch...

If by "feisty" you mean completely irrational, then I can agree with that statement!

hunt with whatever floats yer boat

did you see yukon delta's elephant hunt with the 50 alaskan? punch bullets worked pretty good.

https://forums.accuratereloading.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/...=560100986#560100986

bullet design has a lot to do with old carts like the 45-70 working so well on penetration not the cart.

quote:

Originally posted by ray m:
I've just been the recipient of some vigorous flaming by certain individuals (particularly one),who have explained to me that reducing the velocity of a bullet will increase it's penetration.

If that were true, then Mr. Garrett would download his 45-70 ammo rather than loading it as hot as possible.



This myth was debunked on www.470mbogo.com. They did an extensive experiment and it is a pretty good read.

You can slow bullets down to put neat
holes through, but if there isn't the
energy to dump in the critter, by making
big diameter wound channels, some critters
might eat you, due to being mad about the
neat holes. Ed

500 grains,

You're absolutely right.In fact,I'm working on the theory that if I hold a loose bullet in my hand and throw it like a baseball,I'll probably be able to do just fine without needing gunpowder anymore.

But I'll be careful not to throw it underhanded.The penetration could very well be too extreme.

ray -- I just posted on that thread......

quote:

Originally posted by Whitworth:
ray -- I just posted on that thread......

Just so I'll know.....are you also a Garrett fellow?????You seem rational.

I haven't visited that thread since I told the gentlemen that I'd just as soon agrue with a five year old.

I'm a handgun hunter who likes his big-bore rifles, who thinks Randy Garret has a drug problem or simply a distorted grasp of physics!

Whitworth,

I knew you sounded like a rational individual.We see eye to eye on Mr Garrett.My suspicion is that his B.S. is inspired by profit.His nonsense is bringing a lot of money his way.

By the way,I still look forward to hearing about the tests we spoke about.

Different dynamics going on with handguns and rifles.

Will be performing the test soon........

the chinese are lodging a complaint with the UN for an unprovoked attack on their mainland..

seems someone dropped a box of 458 hardcast 725gr bullets .25 inches and they are penetrating through. too..


or, nevermind, too irrational

LOL Jeff!

There must be some correlation between crack use and the special laws of physics preached on the Garret site!

The simple example: (still refuted by the coolaid drinkers)

The same .458" bullet from the same rifle taveling at Xfps penetrates Y inches.

the same bullet traveling at X+Zfps travels Y inches as it looses velocity until ti is traveling at Z velocity - ie the difference - and thn it travels all of the distance that Z velocity will generate.

Given the velocity differential, the faster similar bullet must penetrate more.

The coolaid crowd hangs their hats on low velocity, but also on bullet shape. Try a North Fork!

JPK

As 500 grains pointed out, why does Garret load his 45/70s so hot if lower velocity penetrates better? Defies logic.......

Whitworth,

I just took a look at the other thread.As it turns out,the moderator is an even bigger idiot than the other one.I'm a handgun enthusiast but I won't be returning to that sub-forum.

It's one thing to have a different viewpoint but a few of those guys are truly complete morons and I would find a discussion with a stray dog to be just as meaningful.

THe guy who owns Kifaru had a long article explaining how his light rifle in .358 Winchester was for all practical purposes a .375 H&H. It made my brain hurt trying to follow his logic and I never could figure out how he was justifying that statement.

Craig Bodington says more rediculous stuff than anyone I know. That is why I stopped reading anything he writes years ago. Broke down a couple of months ago and read an article he wrote on the new TC .30. He went on to explain that it shot bullets faster than the .308 because it held less powder, and that made it better. Even in the Shooting TImes that came yesterday the writer was talking about the .30 TC being smaller and saying "and that's a good thing." WTF?

Hey-I just found this emoticon:

My right front tooth broke out 2 days ago and my dentist is on vacation. Won't be able to see him until Monday morning and then it will be the next Monday before I can get a flipper made up as a temporary solution. I look a lot like that little blue guy!

Ehh. Garretts are fun to shoot, in a painful way. They do have about the same ballistics as a 405 Win. but w. a larger bullet... which actually had a decent African rep, once upon a time... Whenever I finally get to Africa, I'm taking it along, don't know quite what I'll use it on, but I'll take it.

I saw that post, ray -- totally uncalled for........

I love my big handguns, but I'm not delusional about their capabilities.......

the 45-70 kills well, because it starts about .458" diameter and holds together well as it expands and plows thru tissue.

I'm not sure if I'm packing one for DG on my likely once-in-a-lifetime Cape Buffalo hunt in Africa. Of course, it looks pretty deadly compared to the average handgun hunter or archer. So, is that the context we place it in..."Stunt" category?

As one of the guys at my old office said, "...this could be argued either way, an attorney's dream.

Rich
DRSS

For some reason some folks just believe everything they read. If it is in a gun magazine, it has to be true. Back in their hey-day I poo-poo'd moly, all of Blackstar's "magical processes," short mags, carbon fiber wrapped barrels, cryo, fluted barrels, and a lot of other rediculous things.

Folks would always tell me I was all wet and quote some gun writer who can't even pass a remedial calculas class. They choose to believe a man who is getting paid to regurgitate manufacturer's ad hype and argue with folks who are basing their opinion on centruies of proven theorem and measured facts. I don't understand it, but hey-it makes this world a lot more colorful!

There are still some good folks writing, but 20 years ago a higher percentage of people actually knew what they were writing about.

Marc_

just ask them if the phrase "...hugasacka____" means anything. Never argue with an idiot. They will drag you down to their level, and beat you with experience!

Rich
DRSS

How about we just re post old 45-70 pissing threads every month to get it out of the collective A.R. system and not give people carpal tunnel syndrome

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
Marc_

just ask them if the phrase "...hugasacka____" means anything. Never argue with an idiot. They will drag you down to their level, and beat you with experience!

Rich
DRSS

Rich,

You're absolutely right.Arguing with an idiot never leads to anything worthwhile.When one is in a debate with another that cannot use simple reason,you may as well be discussing the subject with a blank screen because essentially,that's what you're doing.

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
the *we band of 45-70ers* are a fiesty bunch...

What's this 'we' crap? You don't even own a .45-70, do you? Or any other big bore?

You just come here and 'flap your gums'.

George

Georgie-Georgie,

moderators are not supposed to get a case of the ass with posters! Yeah, the Boomer does have a 45-70, a Marlin.

Rich
DRSS

i call her thumper...

sorry for the bad pic...cell phone camera

cluck cluck...boom! one two three "bong" said the 200 yard pig gong...lots fun

quote:

......These people remind me of individuals who are on drugs or they are cult members where reality gets turned inside out.

Like Democrats? OR Global Warming is Human Caused idiots!!

So are they saying a big slow projectile will penetrate better than a big fast projectile?

I'll donate a 3500 Grain solid for comparison....who wants to do the test?? Who has the trebuchet?

This is how i see it...

The 45-70 can be a more efficient user of its energy in penetration via flat nose hard cast bullets that dont deform.

The faster the bullet the harder the target

apples to apples a flat nose bullet will penetrate more going faster but expanding bullets have more resistance and transfer energy in other than penetration.

Shoot what you want and have fun.

Come on guys. Everybody knows that you won't get anything rational out of Garrett or his lap crowd, so why go there?
-----------------------------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

raym,

Too bad you decided to piss your pants and come whining over on this forum. You started off with a simple starement/question; “I've used a hard cast 250 gr SWC in the 44 magnum for many years. Has anyone here done any "actual "penetration test comparisons between the medium weight (240-250) and the heavy weight bullets (300+)? If so, can you give specifics? Thanks!†. This was answered with some data from actual testing. I have also killed a fair amount of game that yields some correlation to this data.

After some discussion of revolver rounds, you interject this statement into the conversation; “When someone tells me that a 45/70 with a solid will out penetrate a more powerful caliber using a solid by virtue of it's lower velocity, that person has forever lost any degree of credibility in my view.

People with serious African experience consider Garret to be a complete joke. He is either a moron or a liar with an agenda and that agenda, I suspect is to capitalize on the popularity of the 45/70.

Men with experience with large African game find Garret's assertions to be completely absurd and so do I.â€

After still further discussion regarding the variables involved with your question you came with this, “Let's compare apples with apples.

Take a well built solid (one that will not deform) of whatever size and weight you care to use for an example.

Just for the hell of it, let's make it a 46 caliber of 600 grains in weight.

The faster you drive that bullet, the deeper it will penetrate...period!!!!

To say otherwise is to be absolutely ridiculous. To refute that not only completely ignores large African game experience, it also runs totally contrary to the laws of physics.

No amount of psychobabble nor spin will change it.†No pyschobabble or spin put on it. I’m still discussing actual data obtained from testing. Mine are just three finite events, but these correlate with other finite events to start establishing a pattern.

Not content, but apparently more than willing to stir the pot, you add the following, “I can't believe you're serious. This has been demonstrated time after time after time.

I said APPLES VS APPLES. You're comparing different projectiles.†When asked about your references and any documentation to support your position this is your response, “Where have you been????....This is so completely ridiculous, I won't even dignify it. For years, I've been hearing about the Garret 45/70 loonies and now I understand, for the first time , the very depth of the lunacy.

You people truly live in your own universe .Keep sipping your koolaid.â€. Why the personal attacks on Garrett? Why even bring him in on this?

“I would just as soon argue with a five year old.†I can arrange this and even set up a match with a two-year old to let you get warmed up if you think you need it.

Just as in my response, I still want to know what you are basing your opinions on Mr. enthusiast. You pontificate about the men of great African experience; are you one of them bub? I’ve been and seen and shot game. Doesn’t make me an expert, but it certainly adds to my base of experience. You quote (rather loosely I might add) concerning the laws of physics. Ever heard of the law regarding equal and opposite reactions? Again, I still want to know what your background is this area that you speak from “off the side of the mountainâ€. By the way, I am a professional engineer, have taken the physics classes and have the t-shirt somewhere.

You came over on the handgun hunting forum and asked a question concerning projectiles for handguns. This turned into a discussion in which you brought in rifles and their projectiles; hardly “apples and applesâ€. Then you got “flamed†when asked for you references; spouting what you consider to be empirical data doesn’t cut it, which is why you got my response.

I don’t shoot Garrett’s ammo, most likely never will. I load my own and that includes the Ruger #1 in .458 Win Mag and the Browning in .375 H&H.

As pointed out to you, there are many variables involved in different bullets fired from different firearms penetrating different mediums. Your dogged defense of absolutes makes my wonder about your experience.

Yes, listen to 400 Nitro Express, because I can’t really say I’ll miss you over on the handgun hunting forum.