The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Rifles Big Bores Been flamed by the Garret 45/70 crowd???Go | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
One of Us |
 traveling at a slower speed allows more time to penetrate much deeper.....how's that  | |||
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| One of Us |
I think that the 45-70 is the biggest bore that a lot of people have any experience with. -the 45-70 is the biggest bore I've been able to fire yet, but I wouldn't put it in the same league as the real big bores. I think that the modernazation of the 45-70 has shown people a drastic increase in it's killing ability and that is running with their imaginations. I love my 45-70, but if I was hunting dangerous game in africa, I'ld get a real african cartridge. I don't doubt that the right loads penatrate very well, but I wouldn't feel comfortable taking an animal that kill me with the 45-70, except maybe bear. I'd love to hunt pig with it though and maybe african plains game some day. I did shoot a 460 gr cast bullet through 2x 9ftx9ft chunks of wood, and I thought that was pretty cool. still have to try it on animals though | |||
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Gentlemen, It is all a very complex hydrodynamic phenomena. There is a sweet spot velocity which allows for extraordinary penetration. Obvisouly Garrett has found this velocity in the 45-70, undoubtedly by trial and error shooting into wet newspaper. The typical express African style rifle cartridges are far surpassing this sweet spot velocity; therefore, suffering from a definite reduction in penetration (reference wet newspaper penetration tests done by Linebaugh and Garrett). The continued lamenting of the African style express big bore cartridge shooter is NOTHING more than crying in their beer because they have finally learned that size doesn't matter (it is how you use it that counts)! You guys are ALL pathetic! Now where is did I put that POS 45-70 I own??? Oh yeah, it is at my cousins. | |||
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There is a sweet spot velocity which allows for extraordinary penetration. what good is that? velocity isnt static. | |||
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The real issue is "wet newsprint test medium" vs. game. Wet newsprint tears and wads, flesh does not. If the newsprint is dry, the so called advantage of the slow bullets disapear. Flat noses do outpenetrate round noses but for similar solid bullets, velocity is the only determing factor in the real world of game and the faster the bullet the deeper the penetration.  Free 500grains | |||
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Easy marketing. I would say a large minority if not the majority of gun owners (not people on this forum by and large) use too much pride and not enough physics when thinking about their own guns. Not that there is anything wrong with the calibers, but the 270, 7mm RM, 30-06 and 45-70 rifles and 45 ACP and 44 mag pistols make me cringe when they show up at a range or hunting camp. They are very often attached to a big a$$hole who tells (loudly) how much better they are than any other choice and everyone who doesn't own one is a fool. The 45 acp can kill someone by hitting them in the foot or hand and saved the Marines in the Philippines (the 38 specials the Pentagon issued them wouldn't kill the natives high on LSD or angle dust and just bounced off of curved windshields), the 1911 pistol design has never jammed...ever in history, and won't even if driven over with a truck in the mud. The Rem 7400 in '06 with an "Ironsighter" mounted 3x9 Tasco loaded with accelerators is every bit as good as a 220 Swift in an HB varmint gun and can, just by changing to heavy bullets, be great for Grizzly (somehow the guy next to him with the 300 win mag would be a fool to walk around in bear country with that over bored "God awful kicking" joke of a gun). The 270, also with a look under 3x9 Tasco can take game at 1000 yards easy, the 7mm can take really big game at 1000 yards, also with ease. Actually the '06 can do this too with boat tail bullets. The 44 mag "in a Ruger" is still the worlds biggest handgun and appropriate for all game that would need a 338 or 375 if you were fool enough to use a rifle (when this guy started walking a screw out of his Ruger with his own special hand loads I must admit I was impressed!). And of course our current topic that the 45-70 is way more of a gun than the Lott, little alone the puny 458 Win mag and could probably take on some wussy 505 Gibbs. Thanks! It felt good to rant.  Garret's claims may be BS, but he's a smart guy.... | |||
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Carry that logic out a bit further, and you'll next be stating that the 22LR is a more effective deer cartridge than a 22-250 or 220 Swift is (and the 22LR has a long history of killing deer, even though it's with a spotlight out the car window). | |||
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Hey I saw it in the movie Dune. It must be true. Rich | |||
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And the very best from the .45-70 crowd..... I asked one of the varmints the other day, "If I was to slow my Lott down to identical velocity with an identical bullet wouldn't that make it the same?" The answer no because it is still "just" a .458 Lott. GO YOU BAND OF "45-70ers"! Banjo music playing in the background...  | |||
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A Shooting Times writer said "smaller is better"?! Didn't Winchester's "smaller is better" WSM line tank? Probably contributing to the demise of the company?  KSTEPHENS...in answer to your question, it is simple...just make sure that when you shoot your game animal that it is at the EXACT distance that the bullet hits its "sweet spot velocity".....couldn't be any simpler than that!  | |||
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I have shot a few deer and elk with the .45-70 and the 45-90 and I used hot handloads and the best of bullets..I was never impressed with it as a killer of either. I have some of those kills on film, and they are not impressive. As to who uses them, that's fine with me, use whatever you want.. I just don't care for them... I do love the old lever action Winchesters and Marlin rifles and the workmanship that went into them.. Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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My mistake, boom stick. I must have missed the post where you said you owned a .45-70 amongst all your other posts about big bores and rounds you didn't own. Have you killed anything with it? George  | |||
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George, Not Boomie, but I have seen the effects of a 45-70 on whitetail. It works about as well as the 12 ga slug when said 45-70 is loaded with 405gr Remington SP at 1900 fps and the range is kept under 75 yards. So it does work OK for whitetails at shorter ranges.  I guess if it has been loaded with 540gr HC Garretts it would have been much better though. | |||
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M Shitman, Since you have followed me over here and ignored how I said that I don't want to hear from a Garrett Koolaid drinker,you don't deserve a damn bit of diplomacy. You know absolutely NOTHING about my history.For you to make assertions about it furthur reveals what a complete moron you are. After reading your posts,I would consider having a discussion with you to be comparable to stepping in a pile of dog shit.You're a complete idiot. Go back and sip your koolaid and then choke on your own vomit. | |||
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Put down the crack pipe and place both hands on the wall.... Cue "Twilight Zone" music...   Unfreakin'believable. ---------------------------------------------- "Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder." | |||
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An exhaustive search of the world ballistic literature failed to reveal any "sweet spot" velocity for solids; its a figment of someones imagination. for a non deforming solid of the same weight, penetration is proportional to velocity. Isaac newton said so, and he hasnt been disproven yet! If someone insists on a sweet spot velocity, its .99 C (the velocity of light) The "complex hydrodynamic phenomenon" affecting penetration are supercavitation and shoulder stabilization, NOT a sweet spot velocity QUOTE]Originally posted by ScottS: Gentlemen, It is all a very complex hydrodynamic phenomena. There is a sweet spot velocity which allows for extraordinary penetration. Obvisouly Garrett has found this velocity in the 45-70, undoubtedly by trial and error shooting into wet newspaper. The typical express African style rifle cartridges are far surpassing this sweet spot velocity; therefore, suffering from a definite reduction in penetration (reference wet newspaper penetration tests done by Linebaugh and Garrett). The continued lamenting of the African style express big bore cartridge shooter is NOTHING more than crying in their beer because they have finally learned that size doesn't matter (it is how you use it that counts)! You guys are ALL pathetic! Now where is did I put that POS 45-70 I own??? Oh yeah, it is at my cousins.[/QUOTE] | |||
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I have shot Garretts ammo in 44 Mag and in 45/70, both lead Hammerheads. I found his ammo to be excellent in every way. I have carried both loads for bear protection, but have not had to use them. This penetration thing keeps comming up. I do know there is a hunter [Vince ??] that has killed the big five with his 45/70 and Garrett ammo. Elephants have been killed with a bow as well. The key factor in penetration on game animals hinges on bullet stability IMHO. All else equal the more stable bullet will penetrate more. The problem for us is comparing a stable bullet shape, like a FN 45/70 to say a RN in a 458 at an even higher velocity. Which will penetrate farther??? I can say that with similar shots on the same game a 450gr North Fork FP Solid will penetrate farther than a 480gr Woodleigh Solid. The FP penetrates farther because it is more stable, ie has less of an overturning moment. The larger percentage of weight in the back of the bullet, the more unstable it is on game, with FMJ Spitzers being the worst, as they will usually "tumble". DOUBLE RIFLE SHOOTERS SOCIETY | |||
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Sir, I agree emphatically! Bullet mass will also approach infinity as it approaches the speed of light. That means sectional density will also approach infinity! That has got to be the ticket! | |||
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This whole thing that involved me occured when I asked the simple question about two different bullet weights(from the 44 magnum handgun)with each being driven to it's full potential.I had no idea that I was going to encounter such bizarre ideas. When I began being pummeled with that which comes right out of the Garrett philosophy manual,I countered with what I considered to be rational. Long ago,I reached the conclussion that one should not argue with an idiot.I occasionally have to be reminded of it. | |||
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Don't forget the added benefit of Bremsstrahlung! Just walk up to the freshly microwaved kill after the shot and cut off your toasty hot steaks.  | |||
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Mesquite or Hickory? | |||
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So are y'all saying that if my women Euclidia is holding a spot light on a deer when I shoot him from my truck at night that the bullets will penetrate further than if I am only using the headlights? Therefore a bullet has infinite mass when spotlighting.. COOL | |||
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Sum bawdee be smokin' da weed mawn! | |||
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Step away from the crack pipe!  "Ignorance you can correct, you can't fix stupid." JWP If stupidity hurt, a lot of people would be walking around screaming. Semper Fidelis "Building Carpal Tunnel one round at a time" | |||
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Iere mawn, spliffin fo da good of mawn kinde. Power to da people. | |||
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Relativity adds mass to a bullet as its speed increases. That blows Garrett out of the water, or wet paper. surestrike's proposed "Euclidean" photon engine might take centuries to add enough speed to his bullet to measure, but I fear she and he will have to conduct the experiment in deep space, like FAR OUT man! Garrettophiles smoke crack! | |||
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This is really a waste of bandwidth amigos. If those retards want to put up, then a series of penetration tests could be arranged or deranged as the case may be. Wet newsprint, plywood, concrete bricks, steel plate. Doesn't matter what or how much. Any load for a 45-70 vs any load for a Win Mag, Lott, Wby, etc. Same rifle platform. #1 - bolt gun whatever. Why am I even typing this nonsense. RIP are you ready to build some big guns or what. These little .458's are starting to get irritating. Even this 700 nitro case next to my keyboard is looking puny. | |||
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Dear friends ,i have many rifles in different calibers 458s,416s,375hyh,and i use all of them for buffalo hunting or i rent to the clients ,but dont kill me i have been using garrets in my marlin 4570 for several yeras with great great results even stopping ,charges ,SGRAVES lately and many of the hunters of this forum saw it in action ,in the last time i shot a bull in the chest stopped and the bullet go and exit in the middle of the body vertebraes .So i recommend garrets without hesitation ,and only based in actual experience as i never waste my bullets in paper because here are very difficult to find.Indeed i rely in billinthewild for them.Juan www.huntinginargentina.com.ar FULL PROFESSIONAL MEMBER OF IPHA INTERNATIONAL PROFESSIONAL HUNTERS ASOCIATION . DSC PROFESSIONAL MEMBER DRSS--SCI NRA IDPA IPSC-FAT -argentine shooting federation cred number2- | |||
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Bro' Bear Head: I sure would like to see a picture of a 2-Bore on your website. And I am wondering how much one of thse calibrated recoil reducers weighs and how many can be fit in a buttstock? Are they "water cooled." I voted in the poll, not the pole. And no, I would not vote for a .45-70, if the choice was offered, even one loaded with Garrett ammo. Even if Garrett is as good as it gets in a 45-70 (NOT) it is still a 45-70. | |||
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I'll get some photos on the site when I'm done and tested. Don't want to get flamed like that guy with the auto loading 505. The damper weighs 2.2 lbs and is 9.5 inches long. That particular device is WAAAAAAAAAY to big for a normal rifle. Could be made much smaller and more effective. Have something in mind? | |||
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That's water buffalo, right? i shot one with a 458 garret in my slingshot, penetrated right through seven of em
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Where did this exchange take place, i'd like to read it myself. Please post a link, THANKS! ILLEGITIMUS NON CARBORUNDUM | |||
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| One of Us |
so, If flat points ceate a frictionles bubble after they enter a fluid like state, how come I don't hear any reviews on the Barnes banded solid. Seems to me that more of you african hunters should use a flat point penetrator, not to disprove the 45-70 croud, but to see if a flat point does infact help penetration. Lord know most hunter cannot afford to go to africa and test this hypothisis. If I could afford it, I would go with all flat point solids to see if it is the velocity or the fact that at a lower velocity, lead acts like a solid and the flat point helps it penetrate. Not all of the 45-70 croud has faith in it's cartidge as a dangerous game cartidge and would like someone to prove once and for all what it is that has all these people sturring up grandures of hunting DG with the lever actionis all about. | |||
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The flat nosed Barnes banded solid is a bad mo fo. | |||
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I've owned .45-70's, and I personally have no ill will toward the cartridge, that is, if it is used within it's preformance boundaries. That is, deer, hogs, etc., although I find it a little light for hogs weighing over 300pds. Let me explain why: When I hunt, I like to hunt with a rifle that, on the first shot, will make the game go down, then, and there, immediately, as if the earth were pulled from underneath them. As a hunter, I like to be as humane as possible, with flattening, instant kills. Humanely. For dangerous game, this does not work all the time, even with some big-a$$ guns, but what do we owe the animal? We owe the animal a right to not have to suffer any longer than it has to. In my opinion, using a .45-70 on buff or the like, is an example of failing in our job as hunters to be both humane, and at the same time save our own hides from an inevitable hairy situation that may not happen all the time, but when it does, it becomes bad, ten-fold. So, save the .45-70 for deer and hogs, because if one is affording to hunt buff, then it is a given that one can afford at least a Ruger Lott or a CZ, at least. Common sense is a virtue. Use it. The .45-70 at it's best, duplicates the .450 BPE, and these were the best deer cartridges of all time in my opinion, so leave them at that, where they belong. Don't use a .45-70, where something is calling for a .450 or .500 cordite. Again, it's common sense. I'm not downing the .45-70, it's a wonderful cartridge. But, like all cartridges, each one fills a different niche. For the .45-70, dangerous game is not one of them. "Faith in God and the Mauser" DRSS-MEMBER | |||
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I have tested round nose Woodleigh solids at 2135fps vs. flat nose 450gr North Fork mono metals at 2190fps in buff and elephant heads. The flat nose solids provide far greater penetration. Another member hear, 500 Grains has tested flat nose and round nose solids (of like weight at like velocities, IIRC) and he also found that the flat nose solids penetrated better. I have not tried Barnes. 500 Grains tried the previous round nose Barnes and they lacked penetration compared to the Woodleighs, possibly due to there greater length. The current Barnes do not have a very large flat nose, fwiw. JPK Free 500grains | |||
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juanpozzi, Everyone here at AR knows that those water buffalo are WAY softer targets than cape buffalo. How would you compare the 45-70 Garrets vs a 500 Jeffery shooting 535gr Woodleigh soft points? About the same, or is the 45-70 better? | |||
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Dont know about the frictionless state and/or shoulder stabilization, but the Navy sure seems to think so (supercavitating torpedoes). Re penetration, my .505, 500 gr flat point solid penetrated 8+ ft of elly and exited the other side, my PH's .458 roundnose 500 gr PMC solid (better SD) barely did 5 feet. Both shot at same velocity, same jumbo, same angle etc. "how come I don't hear any reviews on the Barnes banded solid." I dont shoot solid brass slugs, so cant say if they are any good; but there are plenty of reviews on this forum about flat point North fork solids, all positive from what I can tell. I have no experience with NF solids, so cant say
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People running "tests" on wet newspritn or whatever are fooling htmeselves, or intentionally manipulating the data to get the results they want. Calibrated ballistic gelatin is the best we have for testing how well bullets penetrate. If not using this, then there is no apples to apples comparison. The key is that each block of gelatin is calibrated and offers a known and proven resitance. | |||
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I have never hunted in Africa, and my dogs do a creditable job of keeping the elephants, rhinos, and Cape Bufflao out of my back yard here. It seems to me that there is a specific velocity range withing which a .458", 500-grain solid bullet will penetrate deepest. Assuming this is true, then the size, shape, and powder capacity of the cartridge case that'll give such a bullet the required velocity does not matter. I will not pretend to know what this cartridge is, however, a .458 Lott, a .460 WM, a .45/70, or whatever. I leave that to people who should know based on experience. If I ever have an opportunity to shoot at such game, however, I will probably select the .416 Rigby in my safe vs the .45/70 that sits there beside it..... "Bitte, trinks du nicht das Wasser. Dahin haben die Kuhen gesheissen." | |||
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The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Rifles Big Bores Been flamed by the Garret 45/70 crowd???
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