quote:

Originally posted by pagosawingnut:
Michael,
I'm getting ready to send you a Remington Ultra Mag rifle and I want it converted to the caliber you decide will be good, no Great for Dangerous Game. Let me know when it's done.

YEAH Pagosa...... Send that "R" thing, I have a place for it no worries......

R would make a really good "Dangerous Rat Gun"...............

HEH......
M

My aren't we a bit touchy?
You're too funny.

Pagosa.....

"DRG" or "DRR"...

Dangerous Rat Gun

Dangerous Rat Rifle

??

HEH HEH...... You pick, Remington works great for either I think........

quote:

Originally posted by John Galt:
... I am getting more and more intrigued with this cartridge and thinking of eventually having a rifle built around it. I'd love to know the ballpark for a full custom built as you gents have...

I'd say about $2300 for rifle + however much you want to spend on the stock.

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
...I bet we can find some loads with that 335 down in the 2300 fps range, shoot like a 22 hit like big hammer on bear run with dogs..........
...

Has CEB discontinued the 335? All I can find on their web site is the 350.

Edit:
They are listed as Safari Raptor, and Lever + Raptor in their brochure. Maybe Web pages are old.

quote:

Originally posted by tanks:

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
...I bet we can find some loads with that 335 down in the 2300 fps range, shoot like a 22 hit like big hammer on bear run with dogs..........
...

Has CEB discontinued the 335? All I can find on their web site is the 350.

Edit:
They are listed as Safari Raptor, and Lever + Raptor in their brochure. Maybe Web pages are old.

Tanks....
I don't think Dan and crew can keep up with me! LOL....... Yes, I think they will be under Lever Raptors, you see, we can seat those deep, crimp in the top groove, leave one band out, add a Talon Tip, and run those through the magazine.... If I recall correctly we can run those all over 2900 fps. Last year in Australia I used some of these on buffalo, but I had dropped the velocity down to 2700 fps so as to match POI with a bunch of other bullets I was playing with....

I bet right now they don't have the 475 or 525 Safari Solid listed yet for the .500s..... But I have them! Got mine!
HEH...

M

I just called them, they were surprised that they were not on the web site, guess it fell through the cracks.

Ordered 5 boxes of 335 for the 500MDM, and 2 boxes of 235 for the 416B&M.

Got bullets, primers, powder. Now, just need the rifles.

quote:

Originally posted by tanks:
I just called them, they were surprised that they were not on the web site, guess it fell through the cracks.

Ordered 5 boxes of 335 for the 500MDM, and 2 boxes of 235 for the 416B&M.

Got bullets, primers, powder. Now, just need the rifles.

Excellent Tanks... Well, rifles are in the works.... So a little time and before you know it, you will be shooting.....

Man, damned Pressure Test equipment is finicky stuff....... Went out today to work 500 MDM and H-4895 and PT 2 would not hookup or
connect with the computer, no matter what I did????? So I cranked up the Oehler, fortunately it hooked up, as sometimes it even has
issues...... But first time, up and running.....

I did not have any data on H-4895, so simply started low and using 450, 475, and 500 gr #13 Solids to get base data with...... I almost
finished with those bullets, but still have a generation at least to finish.... Looks like one more step up and I will take the 450 #13 Solid
to over 2600 fps and be under pressure, 61000-62000 is my guess right now. The 475 #13 Solid I took to 2533 fps at 62300 PSI, going to stop
there for this as max safe everyday pressure...... One must remember the 500 #13 Solid has a shorter nose projection, which means more bullet
goes in the case, therefore pressures are slightly higher with it, currently I have the 500 #13 Solid at 2387 fps at 59700 PSI and plan on going up
a bit, will be over 2400 easy and well under pressure.....

H-4895 looks very good so far. Don't throw all IMR 8208 away just yet however.......... HEH.... IMR 8208 is still just dandy, but looks like H-4895 is going to be a very good alternative powder, and may be just slightly ahead of IMR 8208 some......... But I still have much to do with it as well....... I don't have enough done yet to put new data on the website, but when I get some more done will up load the data to the B&M Site on the 500 MDM page....

Just FYI..............

Michael

Quote;by Michael458
"and I will take the 450 #13 Solid
to over 2600 fps and be under pressure, 61000-62000 is my guess right now."

quote:

Originally posted by Paul Truccolo:
Quote;by Michael458
"and I will take the 450 #13 Solid
to over 2600 fps and be under pressure, 61000-62000 is my guess right now."

Paul.. In particular in your situation there in Australia, with the severe limitations of powders, H-4895 is going to be very good to you, I think, since we spoke and it is available to you without issues.....

One thing we have not discussed for your particular situation for buffalo where you are, is more use of these two bullets, the 450#13 Solid/410#13 HP match.... On this next trip using the 500 B&M I will be using the 410 as primary, backed with the 450 Solid for buffalo, after of course Mark David works some magic with his 475 B&M Super Short and his buffalo.... I wish that I had used the 410 last year on our visit with you in the 500 MDM. Running the 450 Solid to over 2600, the 410 will be at 2650 minimum, and might touch close to 2700 fps...... Not just these, but as soon as I get enough data, then I will start running the North Fork data as well.....

M

Michael/Paul,

Do either of you know if the IMR 8208 XBR powder is a 'relabeled' ADI Benchmark 8208 powder?

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
...
H-4895 looks very good so far. Don't throw all IMR 8208 away just yet however.......... HEH.... IMR 8208 is still just dandy, but looks like H-4895 is going to be a very good alternative powder, and may be just slightly ahead of IMR 8208 some.........

Having recently acquired 16 lbs of IMR 8208 in anticipation of the 500 MDM I won't be throwing it away for sure. I do have 11 lbs of H-4895 as well, so I am good in either case. Nice to have options, so appreciate your research.

quote:

Originally posted by capoward:
Michael/Paul,

Do either of you know if the IMR 8208 XBR powder is a 'relabeled' ADI Benchmark 8208 powder?

Not sure Jim, seems I recall someone some time ago mentioning something along that order????


Excellent Tanks, you have enough of both to do whatever..... I have loads of IMR 8208 myself...... Thing is,
IMR 8208 will do anything you ever need or want, seems this H-4895 will do a little more, but to what effect?
I can tell you, some of these loads might not be as pleasant as a 100 or so fps less...... LOL...

Quick rundown, I don't even have this recorded in the data sheets yet, but the 500 #13 Solid to 2443 fps at 62500 PSI, stopping there as a good Max Safe Pressure load.... I could not get enough powder in the case for the 450 #13 HP to get it up further, 99/H-4895 max case capacity with that bullet seated to the top groove, 2518 fps at 59500 PSI. I tried 101 and 100, bulged the case both times.... The 450 #13 Solid, longer nose projection, less bullet in the case, I ran 106/H-4895 for an excellent 2619 fps at 62400 PSI. The 410 #13 Matching HP with 109/H-4895 Max Case Capacity 2718 fps at 60600 PSI.... All pretty good. H-4895 we are tending to run out of case capacity before Over Max Pressures, fairly well balanced, excellent compressed loads, which I like. This coming week I will work with the 550 and 525 Solids, then the two 450 North Forks, and I think I will take it to a few of the lighter 375s and see how it does....

Currently its my belief that I can mix in 10-15% RL 7 with the H-4895 and speed burn rates up a bit, decrease the amount of powder, maybe get some more velocity?

Another trick, one can seat the 500/450 Combo to the second groove from the top, increase case capacity, but also reduces pressure, not sure if I can exceed the velocities with these doing this, but intend to investigate that possibility....

All in all, H-4895 is making a great choice for the 500 MDM......... Another tool in our pouch!

Michael

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:

quote:

Originally posted by Paul Truccolo:
Quote;by Michael458
"and I will take the 450 #13 Solid
to over 2600 fps and be under pressure, 61000-62000 is my guess right now."

Paul.. In particular in your situation there in Australia, with the severe limitations of powders, H-4895 is going to be very good to you, I think, since we spoke and it is available to you without issues.....

One thing we have not discussed for your particular situation for buffalo where you are, is more use of these two bullets, the 450#13 Solid/410#13 HP match.... On this next trip using the 500 B&M I will be using the 410 as primary, backed with the 450 Solid for buffalo, after of course Mark David works some magic with his 475 B&M Super Short and his buffalo.... I wish that I had used the 410 last year on our visit with you in the 500 MDM. Running the 450 Solid to over 2600, the 410 will be at 2650 minimum, and might touch close to 2700 fps...... Not just these, but as soon as I get enough data, then I will start running the North Fork data as well.....

M

Mike,
a 410gn slug at 2650fps + is almost like a 416 Weatherby, only IN 50 CAL

The numbers are certainly not lost on me but I still have a hard time letting go of the "traditional" mentality that clings to bullet weight, (despite what I have seen in the field), and for some reason (probably because it just plain works so well) I have a hard time moving passed the 450gn #13.

There is little doubt, from what we have seen with these bullets and their behavior with velocity that the loads you have above will absolutely all but cut a buffalo in half, but I still maintain that the ever so slight increase in bullet weight, between 450gn and 410gn, MAY make the slightest difference in those absolutely marginal circumstances when all else has "hit the fan".
(this is purely from a back-up perspective, not general hunting scenario).

When dealing specifically with these Non-conventional #13 Raptors, I think there must be some point of perfect balance per caliber between velocity/bullet weight/"energy dump" (I know I'm going to catch some grief over this last term), but you get what I'm trying to convey ?
Is the 40gn difference between the 450gn and 410gn enough to notice ?, probably not, probably, but it may take an extensive field trial and testing on numbers of buffalo to find out

If nothing else, a 410gn at 2600fps gives the shooter an extremely fast stepping, versatile open country, anything on the planet load which when teamed up in a scoped rifle, gives the Africaphile an awesome "plainsgame" load to team up with a 450gn solid.
One gun, two loads, hunt anything, anytime !

The loads for the 450gn #13 hp you have worked up with various powders at 2500fps + gives me a generous margin of; extreme performance, extended petal shear distances within acceptable working pressures.
Not too sure about the availability of H 4895 in Australia, but most certainly Vhitavoury and A.D.I 8208 is easily bought.

The current load I am using gives me about 2400fps with the 450gn #13 and whilst stunning in performance, obviously is not near close to the full potential of this magnificent cartridge, and I want to explore further.

Jim, i'm not sure about the labeling of 8208, something that needs to be confirmed.

for testing and sharing,

g'day to the family, Chip and all the rest of the "crew",

Paul.

Thanks guys...

Michael looks like the loading is coming along nicely; definitely demonstrating the cartridge's capabilities...

Paul
Taking all things into consideration, I concur that it would be impossible to improve on the 450 #13 HP for what you are doing, where less than perfect shots are required, backing up client shots..... No doubt, deeper penetration with the 450 over the 410.......

I did the 450/410 primarily to get a little more velocity out of both these, than the 500/450 combination, for the 50 B&M. We are able to run the 500 Solid at 2130 fps, consistent pressures and velocity with 66/IMR 4198. The 450 HP with 70/IMR 4198 at 2280 and 63000 PSI. Both more than enough, but you know me, always looking. With the 450 Solid and its longer nose projection at .650 and less in the case we get 2300 fps in the 18 inch 50 B&M, and the 410 HP at 75/IMR 4198 2393 at 59000 PSI.
It was natural for me to take the 450/410s to the 500 MDM to see what we can do with them. Yesterday hitting 2600 fps with the 450 Solid and 2700 fps with the 410 HP was intriguing to say the least, and put my mind to wondering........

I will be using the various 450s and this 410 HP with Talon Tip in the 500 B&M this coming June. While some less than the 500 MDM, the 410 is still over 2500 fps in the 500 B&M 18 inch barrel, in addition I can run the tipped bullet in the magazine, giving me an extra 150 fps at 50 yard impacts...... Should be interesting to see......

I admit freely I am not really looking forward to the trip, even with new rifle in hand. I have had enough of this travel crap and it has worn me out to the point that after this, I am taking a big break from it. I would much rather be here on the compound doing something else.......... And if not for Mark David, I would not be going anywhere this year period...... I have had enough...........

It may seem we are dealing with several different designs in .500 caliber, and much of that is true actually. The first 500 gr #13 Solids were done by CEB from a Sample bullet that Sam made that was so successful. CEB, Dan, copied the nose projection of that sample bullet exactly, and it comes to around .585 Nose Projection above the bands. And that is as it stands today as well, and the 450 HP exactly the same. It was only a couple of years later that we discovered with the solids that Nose Projection above the bands does make a difference in depth of penetration, more nose up front, deeper penetration. This is more noticed going from the very short nose projections of the solids designed to work through the lever guns. So with this 450 #13 Solid I took the nose projection to .650 hoping to equal penetration of the 500 Solid at .585, and taking into account the increased velocity obtained as well. This did not prove out, while the 450 penetrates more than enough to do anything required of it, it still does not equal the 500 gr bullet. So it would appear that nose projection is not as noticed at longer projections than the lever guns, but to prove this absolutely one would have to have all factors equal, other than slight nose projection lengths.... Which we have done exactly with the lever nose projection of .435 and equal bullet with nose projection of .600.......

To further complicate this... HEH HEH... I did the 475 and 525 gr solids with .600 nose projections... LOL..... I have had a test planned for some time now to test all of the current bigger .500 solids, 450 with .650 Nose, 475 at .600, 500 at .585, 525 at .600, and the 550 at .585...... But just have not had time to get there yet........... SOON...........

Back to H-4895, I was hoping that it would be more in line with some of the V-N530 I tested. Only having one # of the V-N530 what little bit I could see it appears to be the Miracle Powder for 500 MDM and 500 B&M.... My one test with the 500 gr #13 Solid with 92/V-N530 give us 2340 fps at 54000 PSI... Lots of room there to get much more maybe? Using the matching 450 HP with 99/V-N530 2543 fps at 62000 PSI. With these I noticed zero issues with over capacity and case bulging.... But with 98/H-4895 and the 500 Solid at 2443 fps at 62500 PSI, this is going to be pretty difficult to top I think.... With the 450 HP at 2518 with 99/H-4895 it does not match V-N530 simply because I can't get another gr of H-4895 in the case without bulging it! So V-N530 wins out in this case..... There is much more to be done with this, and I am on it......

Michael

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
...

Back to H-4895, I was hoping that it would be more in line with some of the V-N530 I tested. Only having one # of the V-N530 what little bit I could see it appears to be the Miracle Powder for 500 MDM and 500 B&M.... My one test with the 500 gr #13 Solid with 92/V-N530 give us 2340 fps at 54000 PSI... Lots of room there to get much more maybe? Using the matching 450 HP with 99/V-N530 2543 fps at 62000 PSI. With these I noticed zero issues with over capacity and case bulging.... But with 98/H-4895 and the 500 Solid at 2443 fps at 62500 PSI, this is going to be pretty difficult to top I think.... With the 450 HP at 2518 with 99/H-4895 it does not match V-N530 simply because I can't get another gr of H-4895 in the case without bulging it! So V-N530 wins out in this case..... There is much more to be done with this, and I am on it......

So, it is an improvement over IMR 8208, but not as much as V-N530 can be. I'll keep an eye out for the V-N530 but have not seen those powders anywhere not online, and not on any gun shows.

Almost like pistol powders. I quit shooting my .45 Bullseye pistol as I no longer can find the powder for the load it likes.

quote:

So, it is an improvement over IMR 8208, but not as much as V-N530 can be. I'll keep an eye out for the V-N530 but have not seen those powders anywhere not online, and not on any gun shows.

Tanks....

Yes, maybe, from what little bit of work I did, V-N530 shows a lot of potential......... I have been looking for some as well. I even have some backordered from one place, but none has shown up yet....

H-4895 and V-N530 looked very good in the 500 B&M as well.........

M

By the way...ISN'T MINE DONE YET???????

Hey Michael,

While you’re testing the new .500 caliber nose projections, any chance you can let us know what the nose projections were for these bullets?
Extracted from:
http://forums.accuratereloadin...3/m/2861098911/p/103

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
Sam

WE DID IT!!!!! I just got through looking at my data on 6.5 and 9.3. All I am showing is 71 inches with that 156 FMJ 6.5 caliber bullet and it was 1.5 inches off course!!!!! On the 9.3 I am showing the 320 Woodleigh to 73 inches!! That is what I have on recorded data!

Now feast your eyes on this Corbin!!!



I did not check the data on 6.5 and 9.3 until just now. I did not think we had made it! Somehow (probably Corbin raving about) I thought the 6.5 was deeper, but NOT!!!!!

OK...................Official the 500 MDM is king of the "Mix"!

Sam


Michael

And…
http://forums.accuratereloadin...3/m/2861098911/p/107

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
……
Oh, yes, there is work left to be done, no doubt. But less than before for sure. Funny you should mention the Hollow Base Bullets! Jim also brought those up this week too, but Jim was very serious about them, he ordered 14 boxes of them. I also ordered 14 boxes for test work in addition to Jims. We are taking the 500 gr BBW #13 .500 caliber, hollow base in it to 460 grs. So Jim is a step ahead of both of us on that one. I have been so busy with other things, they had really slipped my mind, was very glad he brought them up! You see, I need input from all you guys, this is not just about what Michael tests and does, it's been an effort from everyone involved.

Now, speaking of Hollow Base Bullets--remember the ones Sam sent down before leaving, the ones that were going to beat Corbins little 6.5 pills?




Yes, well, I only had one each of those. I suppose I was too conservative on the load, and velocity was too low on both of them, so penetration was limited by velocity on this test--remember what I said about those "Other Days", this was today!





I see I typed in the wrong weight on the label too--Should read 540--Not 530 gr. Appears that day is continuing!
Michael

Reason I ask is obviously there’s something about the 1st bullet that’s worth an additional 10”-14” of straight-line penetration over the 2nd and 3rd bullets…

Thanks,

SOON Bieby Soon.............HEH........


Cappy.....

I have all those of course, will look those bullets up and do some measurement.... These were done LONG before the discovery of Nose Projection and how it effects depth of penetration. The 536 HB bullet was incredible, I suspect velocity might have been a factor in depth of penetration above the 530/600 extremely long nose projection bullets. I also suspect that the 536 may do better than even the new 525 I did as well..... But I am going to run different velocities in these tests with the same bullets..... So we will learn a little more maybe as well.......... I will look these bullets up and measure nose projection........

Michael

I love that photo you had of the lonng nose bullet sticking out the back of the wet pack box. If there was ever a dead straight penetration that was it.

quote:

Originally posted by srose:
I love that photo you had of the lonng nose bullet sticking out the back of the wet pack box. If there was ever a dead straight penetration that was it.

Yep darn good photo and I should have shown those photos as well.
So extracted from:
http://forums.accuratereloadin...3/m/2861098911/p/107

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
Oh yes, I did have something to add. The 600 gr bullet, want to talk about dead straight?

Definitely lays-to-bed whether the bullets stay straight or tumble to base-first as some allege.

quote:

I have all those of course, will look those bullets up and do some measurement.... These were done LONG before the discovery of Nose Projection and how it effects depth of penetration. The 536 HB bullet was incredible, I suspect velocity might have been a factor in depth of penetration above the 530/600 extremely long nose projection bullets. I also suspect that the 536 may do better than even the new 525 I did as well..... But I am going to run different velocities in these tests with the same bullets..... So we will learn a little more maybe as well.......... I will look these bullets up and measure nose projection........

Thanks Michael...

If you don't mind, could you also measure the overall length as well as the HB diameter and depth.

Just noodling... I'm wondering if a similar CNC cut bullet modified only in length by computing the total collapse of the outside shell into the HB void (brain malfunctioning and couldn't think of another easy way to describe it) would deliver a similar depth of straight-line penetration when fired at an identical MV...

quote:

Originally posted by Biebs:
By the way...ISN'T MINE DONE YET???????

Classic. That really cracks me up Beibs.

I reckon this pic would be aggravating the living bejezzas out of the Doc, everytime he sees it, so in the interests of testing that theory out........ here it is once more !

quote:

Funny you should mention the Hollow Base Bullets! Jim also brought those up this week too, but Jim was very serious about them, he ordered 14 boxes of them. I also ordered 14 boxes for test work in addition to Jims. We are taking the 500 gr BBW #13 .500 caliber, hollow base in it to 460 grs. So Jim is a step ahead of both of us on that one. I have been so busy with other things, they had really slipped my mind, was very glad he brought them up!

To bad I stupidly didn't have Dan maximize the HB diameter and shorten the depth for bullet weight rather than just matching the 460gr HP diameter and depth...

Live and learn...

The 14 boxes do give me a lot of practice bullets... Or perhaps I need to buy a mill and cut a larger HB diameter in them... Perhaps even a multi-diameter stepped-diameter...

Oh well, something to think about...

quote:

Originally posted by Paul Truccolo:

quote:

Originally posted by Biebs:
By the way...ISN'T MINE DONE YET???????

Classic. That really cracks me up Beibs.

I reckon this pic would be aggravating the living bejezzas out of the Doc, everytime he sees it, so in the interests of testing that theory out........ here it is once more !

Ah...Paul... That's bad!

quote:

Originally posted by capoward:

quote:

Funny you should mention the Hollow Base Bullets! Jim also brought those up this week too, but Jim was very serious about them, he ordered 14 boxes of them. I also ordered 14 boxes for test work in addition to Jims. We are taking the 500 gr BBW #13 .500 caliber, hollow base in it to 460 grs. So Jim is a step ahead of both of us on that one. I have been so busy with other things, they had really slipped my mind, was very glad he brought them up!

To bad I stupidly didn't have Dan maximize the HB diameter and shorten the depth for bullet weight rather than just matching the 460gr HP diameter and depth...

Live and learn...

The 14 boxes do give me a lot of practice bullets... Or perhaps I need to buy a mill and cut a larger HB diameter in them... Perhaps even a multi-diameter stepped-diameter...

Oh well, something to think about...

Yes, the Cavity was not large enough on that run of bullets we did. We need a larger diameter cavity for the hollow base, and even deeper as well, create our own
"Case Capacity"........ Very much like the ones that Sam did, but the nose projection must be short enough to fit normally in the magazine, or there is no real gain, while I like singles, I would rather use the magazine capacity as well......

It would be interesting to take a 550, hollow a large cavity in the base..... Reducing weight to something between 450-475..... Create extra "Case Capacity" run pressures up to 60000 or so and speeds to 2500 +........ You would have extra length of the total bullet, velocity, and we remember how deep those HBs penetrated that we did early on...... Might be a future project after I return......... Just for the sake of finding out once and for all... I have not had time to revisit this, I plan to have more time after this upcoming hunt.......



WTF is this "Cry Baby" crap again?????? Driving me........

Looking at the 600 and 540gr BBW #13 bullets seated on the 500 MDM I gather they were shot singly for testing purposes? I don't think they'd fit the magazine.

Which brings me to ask another question regarding the 500 MDM. Once the cartridge is loaded to maximum COAL to fit and feed through the magazine, how much freebore is there?

quote:

Very much like the ones that Sam did, but the nose projection must be short enough to fit normally in the magazine, or there is no real gain, while I like singles, I would rather use the magazine capacity as well......

You would have extra length of the total bullet, velocity, and we remember how deep those HBs penetrated that we did early on...... Might be a future project after I return......... Just for the sake of finding out once and for all... I have not had time to revisit this, I plan to have more time after this upcoming hunt.......

I understand... Time has been in very short supply for you…And again good luck on your hunt…

Perhaps those of us not departing for a hunt in the near future can play data ‘what ifs’ in the meantime.

Nose projection including length of the 1st (upper) driving band width…
The SAAMI specification for the 300 RUM is 3.6” COAL. So using the 500 MDM 2.8” untrimmed case length specification with the maximum 3.6” COAL results in a maximum nose projection of 0.800” inclusive of the driving band.

Platform…
The 500 MDMs are traditionally built on the Winchester M70 RUM actions and if I recollect correctly the internal magazine length for the box should be in the 3.63”-3.65” range...

I don’t own a M70 rifle so can’t participate in this aspect of the endeavor – so all who desire to participate need to measure up your box length and post for inclusion in the project… Reason for needing the actual measurements is to validate the absolute minimum internal magazine length box in use to assure that the new HB bullet will properly function through all 500 MDMs.

Next aspect is up to Sam and Michael – that being to identify the HB diameter and depth that worked so well with the 536gr BBW HB Solid…

Of course something else that may be required to facilitate this bullets use in cartridges other than the 500 MDM is to perhaps reduce the width of the current four driving bands so that a 5th or perhaps 6th band(s) could be added to the shank without increasing the total amount of material to be displaced by the rifling… Just something to think about…

So should be play while the Doc is otherwise occupied?

quote:

Which brings me to ask another question regarding the 500 MDM. Once the cartridge is loaded to maximum COAL to fit and feed through the magazine, how much freebore is there?

tanks,

If I recollect correctly...there is approximately 0.350" of parallel-sided freebore in the chamber. With the current CEB Safari bullets only the upper driving band width reduces the freebore and they deliver excellent accuracy...

Before getting too excited about hollow-based bullets, I recall that the powder burns may not be as uniform when the hollow base is filled with powder,
and acts like a second-stage rocket motor escaping down the barrel.

So as not to waste case capacity,
maybe Doc M, can open a Rocket Science Branch at McCourry Institute of Ballistics, MIB-RSB.

Fill the hollow base with a more rapidly burning powder for more reliable second-stage booster ignition.
Use slower powder in the cartridge case below the hollow base for first stage.

Another chance for powder mixing research?

Ron,

I'm pretty sure Michael had complete burn without issues on the BBW HB bullets that Sam cut.

He did have powder burning issues with the HB bullets that I ordered - with the way to small diameter hole - but I also believe that related to ball powder loads. Might be wrong though...

Jim,
That the hollow-base load should not be with ball powder seems like a good idea.

Ron,

Yes definitely no ball powder at least with the current small HB diameter bullets.

I used the original HP diameter of the 460gr .500 CEB DGBR-HP W07 bullets for the HB diameter of 460gr .500 CEB DGBR-HB W09 bullets.

I recollect Michael had good results with the W09 using RL-10x in the 500 MDM. That combo didn't have the pressure spike the 50 B&M had with ball powder and the W09 bullet and further work would have resulted up higher velocities but the 50 B&M was the priority at that time so no further efforts were put into identifying optimum loadings.

I just screwed the pooch on the original specification. Definitely should have had Dan cut the largest diameter possible while maintaining wall integrity and used depth for weight solely for weight control for the HB bullet. Who knows where we might be right now HB evolution wise had we done so...

Live and learn...

Little bit of history for those who haven’t wondered through the Terminal Bullet Performance thread recently…
Extracted from:
http://forums.accuratereloadin...43/m/2861098911/p/89

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
Next!!!!!!!!!!
…..
How about some Hollow Base Bullets to ponder over?



Little update is in order I think. Remember our meplat tests, most all those bullets weighed in close to 430 grs or so, stable penetration on 65% and up was around 42-46 inches as I recall. Well Sam had made one that had a hollow base, it weighed 360 grs, same length, nose profile, meplat size, everything except the weight from 430 to 360. Well common sense and sectional density told us that the bullet cannot possibly penetrate to the same depth as the 430s, right? Wrong? Not much difference?



This raised some questions that needed answered, how could this be, this bullet weighed only 360 grs with an SD of only .206 and the 430s with an SD of .246, how could they be that close?

Sam made a few more, and I just got to them today. Not sure I answered anything, I have more questions now than even before?



I missed the velocity by 60-70 fps, and I am sure the extra velocity took these a tiny bit further, but we still have a question of HOW CAN THIS BE? What happened to SD? These bullets are the same physical size, length, diameter, close in meplat size, same nose profile, and now the 360s because of the velocity actually penetrate deeper? Like I said, what did we answer here?

And here’s when the W09 HB bullets arrived:
http://forums.accuratereloadin...3/m/2861098911/p/112

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
BULLETS BULLETS BULLETS----Whew, well got my clothes back on now, after rolling naked in the new bullets! Nearly worn out, but I managed to take some photos of the new .500s. Will be a busy week next week I think!

Also received the rest of the run of .474s, 470 gr CEB BBW #13 HP and 500 gr CEB BBW #13 Solids, both in copper.

But here are the .500s





Here is the hollow base on the 460 CEB BBW #13. Remember, exactly the same bullet as the 500 gr CEB BBW #13--just a hollow base, bringing the weight down to 460 grs.


……

Michael

First report with the W09 HB bullets. Same page…

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
Moving on to the next test! How about those Hollow Bases? Well, no I did not do terminals on the .500 caliber 460 CEB BBW #13 solids today, but I did do some pressure traces, as Capo and myself, and Sam are interested in how that hollow base might also reduce pressures!

I tested today in the 50 B&M the 460 CEB BBW #13 Hollow Base with 70/IMR 4198 along side the 460 gr CEB BBW #13 Hollow Point! Both weight 460--same bearing surface, same bands, same everything.

The 460 HP rolled in at 2278 fps at 61728 PSI. Now I had a test on this last week and the pressures run 59351 PSI, this is not so bad running pressure traces, not a lot of real differences.

The 460 Hollow Base came in at 2258 fps at 68598 PSI!!!! Oppps! Pressure increased greatly! Case study, along with a slightly sticky bolt confirms this. I will drop that to 68/IMR 4198.



Next I worked with the 500 MDM with the 460s!

I had a prior test with the 460 CEB BBW #13 HP with 98/RL 10X the other day, it was 2592 fps at 62438 PSI. Todays test the 460 HP with 98/RL 10X gave me 2581 fps at 61728 PSI. Very close.

Now I was a little concerned about the 460 Hollow Base! With 98/RL 10X it gave 2577 fps and only 57232 PSI! 4496 PSI less. Now, from one day to the next, that's still not a lot of difference as conditions change---but back to back same day, same hookup, it is enough to take notice of--as is the test done with the 50 B&M.

Conclusions?

Hmmmm? In one cartridge pressures were higher, unexpected! In the bigger cartridge, pressures were lower, as expected.

Possibly the "Larger" case capacity allowed the HB to lower the pressures. The load in the 50 B&M, with it's lesser capacity was compressed. But so was the HP--with it's flat base?

Conclusions, well, there are none to be had just yet. Inconclusive. Right now, I think it has to go by cartridge and load as to whether the HB will lower pressures. The HB on this bullet is actually small in diameter, possibly a wider HB covering more surface area than depth might make a bigger difference in lowering pressures?

One Cartridge Yes--the other No!

Interesting stuff I think.

Michael

And what is majorly identified as the problem! Same page…

quote:

Originally posted by capoward:
Michael,

That is most definitely very interesting results the 460gr #13 HB in the 50 B&M vis-à-vis in the 500 MDM. While It also appears that the current version will work OK in the 50 MDM as it does the 500 MDM…you are correct – base hole diameter/depth is as critical to proper HB bullet performance as it is to the HP bullet performance.

Here’s a not to good view of Sam’s original 360gr BBW and the production 460gr CEB BBW #13:

The 360gr worked fine in the 50 B&M but the 460gr didn’t. Most likely it was due to the shorter overall bullet length but it is easy seen that Sam’s prototype BBW 67% Meplat HB bullet had a slightly larger diameter HB hole than the production CEB BBW #13 HB bullet.

I wonder if Sam would be willing to take one of my boxes of 500gr #13 FN bullets and tinker with HB hole diameter and depth to produce a say 3 each of six different hole diameter/depth possibilities – while maintaining 460gr bullet weight – for testing with the 50 B&M cartridge. Then test one bullet of each option for pressure and velocity and then run the remaining winners for POI accuracy? Once settled we should have a “new” 460gr CEB BBW #13 HB that will work properly with all relating .500 caliber cartridges (that it’ll properly seat in that is).

Ok…time to save some space on this thread…

quote:

Originally posted by capoward:

quote:

Which brings me to ask another question regarding the 500 MDM. Once the cartridge is loaded to maximum COAL to fit and feed through the magazine, how much freebore is there?

tanks,

If I recollect correctly...there is approximately 0.350" of parallel-sided freebore in the chamber. With the current CEB Safari bullets only the upper driving band width reduces the freebore and they deliver excellent accuracy...

Tanks.... I recall the same as Cappy on the freebore of 500 MDM.....


Concerning the Hollow Base bullets.... ?????? There is ultimately no free lunch. While they indeed increase case capacity, pressures are reduced. Reduced pressures, reduce velocity, increase powder charge, increase pressures, increase velocities, its a vicious circle, and may come out no better than you were to begin with??? It might be interesting however to investigate some further, now that major factors have been sorted out with the bullets. While I don't know this, I suspect we may have gone as far as we can by bullet design in getting our "free Lunch", or extra velocity with less pressures by band design, and reduced bearing surface of the #13s and North Forks....

As for terminal performance, hell I don't know anywhere to go beyond what has been accomplished with the #13s Solid/HPs and the North Fork designs FPS/CPS..............

I have some range time scheduled this morning, continuing pressure tests with the 500 MDM and H-4895. Different powders and their burn characteristics is where I believe we get our cake and eat it, or our reduced pressures and higher performance.....

Today I will be taking H-4895 to the 550#13 Solid, 525 #13 Solid, Both North Forks FPS/CPS 450s, and just to check the 375 North Fork CPS......

M

I just ran across that Hollow Base test data and took a closer look... Good I keep data, that is far far more reliable than my memory for sure......

I might be wrong, there might sure enough be able to get a little "Free Lunch" out of a HB Bullet???????

460 CEB BBW #13 Hollow Point vs Hollow Base Pressure Trace

500 MDM
460 BBW HP 98/RL 10X Fed 215 2586 2576 10 2581 RUM Brass 61728 PSI
460 BBW HB 98/RL 10X Fed 215 2586 2570 16 2577 RUM Brass 57232 PSI
Hollow Base


50 B&M

New 12/20/2010 Data With New Primers--Powder

460 CEB #13 HP 68/IMR 4198 Fed 215 2262 2248 14 2255 Pressure 64555 PSI
460 CEB #13 Hollow B 68/IMR 4198 Fed 215 2255 2250 5 2252 Pressure 70365 PSI


460 CEB #13 HP 74/H-322 Fed 215 2166 2159 7 2162 Pressure 55525 PSI
460 CEB #13 Hollow B 74/H-322 Fed 215 2156 2150 6 2153 Pressure 51520 PSI


460 CEB #13 HP 70/RL 10X Fed 215 2098 2098 0 2098 Pressure 49400 PSI
460 CEB #13 Hollow B 70/RL 10X Fed 215 2096 2087 9 2091 Pressure 47594 PSI

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
I just ran across that Hollow Base test data and took a closer look... Good I keep data, that is far far more reliable than my memory for sure......

I might be wrong, there might sure enough be able to get a little "Free Lunch" out of a HB Bullet???????

460 CEB BBW #13 Hollow Point vs Hollow Base Pressure Trace

500 MDM
460 BBW HP 98/RL 10X Fed 215 2586 2576 10 2581 RUM Brass 61728 PSI
460 BBW HB 98/RL 10X Fed 215 2586 2570 16 2577 RUM Brass 57232 PSI
Hollow Base


50 B&M

New 12/20/2010 Data With New Primers--Powder

460 CEB #13 HP 68/IMR 4198 Fed 215 2262 2248 14 2255 Pressure 64555 PSI
460 CEB #13 Hollow B 68/IMR 4198 Fed 215 2255 2250 5 2252 Pressure 70365 PSI


460 CEB #13 HP 74/H-322 Fed 215 2166 2159 7 2162 Pressure 55525 PSI
460 CEB #13 Hollow B 74/H-322 Fed 215 2156 2150 6 2153 Pressure 51520 PSI


460 CEB #13 HP 70/RL 10X Fed 215 2098 2098 0 2098 Pressure 49400 PSI
460 CEB #13 Hollow B 70/RL 10X Fed 215 2096 2087 9 2091 Pressure 47594 PSI

Whoa...definitely good data which I'll have to keep.

What I can see is that we've a gigantic hole with the 460 CEB HB W09 bullets is the lack of 'bullet box' results. I believe they were canceled after the 50 B&M hit the pressure spike with IME 4198..

If the extra velocity of the 460gr HB Solid matching that of the 460gr HP doesn't overcome or at least make the difference insignificant the penetration difference between it and the 500gr FN Solid then it's value many be limited.

But then if the 460gr CEB HB W09 FN Solid matches or exceeds the penetration depth of the new 450gr CEB W26 Safari Solid then should be good to go especially with the reduced pressure...

I know I screwed the pooch with the HB specifications. But I do still like the idea of matching the now 450gr Safari Raptor with a 450gr Safari HB FN Solid where the velocity is higher for both bullets vs the difference in velocities of the two current HP/FN bullets with their 50gr weight difference. Especially where the HB Solid has a very large diameter, as large a diameter as the wall integrity permits, and a shallower depth, both of which should eliminate the pressure spiking suffered with the W09 HB bullet and IMR 4198 powder in the 50 B&M...

quote:

I know I screwed the pooch with the HB specifications. But I do still like the idea of matching the now 450gr Safari Raptor with a 450gr Safari HB FN Solid where the velocity is higher for both bullets vs the difference in velocities of the two current HP/FN bullets with their 50gr weight difference. Especially where the HB Solid has a very large diameter, as large a diameter as the wall integrity permits, and a shallower depth, both of which should eliminate the pressure spiking suffered with the W09 HB bullet and IMR 4198 powder in the 50 B&M...

Cappy....... After revisiting this data I had we see in nearly all cases that we had from roughly 2500-4500 PSI less pressure with all powders except the IMR 4198, which spiked, with the Hollow Base. If that hollow base was wider than
this bullet, then might not have gotten that spike, or it might just be the burn of IMR 4198 as well.... Either way, the
majority of loads reduced pressure was the norm, while no real difference or velocity loss.... Indeed, something to investigate some further, maybe later on this year.....

I did manage to run some more pressures with the H-4895 and 500 MDM yesterday, and results are good....
Top end results;

375 North Fork CPS-- 109/H-4895 2753 fps 54600 PSI---Max Case Capacity.......

450 North Fork CPS-- 104/H-4895 2609 fps 62400 PSI

450 North Fork FPS-- 107/H-4895 2623 fps 63300 PSI---Max Case Capacity

525 #13 Solid-- 95/H-4895 2361 fps 63200 PSI

550 #13 Solid-- 90/H-4895 2262 fps 61800 PSI

Kinda flip a coin sort of thing... With some bullets H-4895 exceeds IMR 8208, but with others they are about equal.... IMR 8208 compresses easier than H-4895, which seems to be slightly more bulky... All in all, very good results and we now can add H-4895 to the top end powder list..... Today sometime I will place the new general data on the B&M site on 500 MDM Page........

New Data uploaded.... Scroll down until you find it...

http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/500-MDM.html

Michael