Hey Michael,

I'm still here, just lurking between a few threads, this one’s really moving today through…almost two pages and it’s still early.

Ah…fresh hot cornbread…with sweet butter or honey….um….wow made me hungry so just had to grab a quick bowl of chips and salsa to kill the pains! Oh well, no cornbread here unless wife’s also making homemade chili and it’s too warm for chili right now…

Don’t know if you’ve checked your email yet; I was charged for the finish and full-length resize reamers yesterday so I should have them by Thursday or Friday if they ship as quickly as the gauges did. One small step closer!

Jim

Yeah man, good cornbread is some fine stuff! Like mine with corn and peppers mixed in too! Good chili, especially in this cold weather we are having, ummmmm!

Just checked email, and responded. Excellent! Now show me the baby!

Michael

O, I'm still here Michael, lurking in the background. Not much to add to the discussion, but do find it good reading for sure. And beside's; when it comes to calculations and numbers that are supposed to represent stuff, then I find it much smarter to simply remain quite and appear a little simple, then to open my mouth and erase all doubt.
Cheers!

DWright

Yeah me too. I think I keep my mouth shut too before they actually learn how ignorant I really am! So far I have been able to dazzle and put on a good show, but when they start that damn cyphering might need to shut up and just go shoot something!


Michael

OK, fine, here'a the way I see it.
If you take the square root of the mass, devided by the meplate, times the length of the dia., times 3. Then double that number, you can come up with the penetration in feet, as long as the bullet base is still where it should be.
Or, maybe not. . . .

Warrior wrote:

quote:

Gerard,
I did not respond to your disciples as it was not worthy of a response. There was no attack or any agenda as you vindictively allege. I thought that it was a GSC bullet, but I was mistaken, ....

quote:

“Argue for your limitations and sure enough they're yours.” -- Richard Bach.

quote:

OK, fine, here'a the way I see it.
If you take the square root of the mass, devided by the meplate, times the length of the dia., times 3. Then double that number, you can come up with the penetration in feet, as long as the bullet base is still where it should be.
Or, maybe not. . . .

Is that the one where you finally add the last 4 digits of your phone number and you get today's date? Spooky how that works, isn't it?


OK, I promise to ease off on the math and shoot more. If I can't hit what I'm aiming at, all the cyphering/ciphering in the world isn't going to help me.

We want to try cornbread. What recipe shall we start with? (PM will be good so that we dont dilute the thread too much.)

Alf,
Entirely correct, Cd changes with Mach number. Therefore, according to your definition below, the correct use of SD is the use of SD as a ratio and not as a rigid number that is calculated simplistically by weighing a bullet and measuring the diameter?

quote:

SD is defined as the ratio of a bullets mass to it's aerodynamic surface area, ie that cross sectional area presented to the air or target in it's direction of motion.

How about the wetted area and penetration? It plays an important role and, even if a bullet deforms, wetted area is instrumental in the deformation process. So, the larger the wetted area and the higher the Sd, the more energy is used in the deformation of the bullet. When deformation produces a shape that increases the wetted area, the process feeds on itself. When deformation produces a shape that reduces the wetted area, the bullet penetrates better. Two points are of interest (call them rules if you like): 1. Some shapes shield the following body/surfaces from contact and drag. Some dont. 2. The larger the wetted area, the more drag and the less penetration.

So the question remains: Which shape has the largest wetted surface area during penetration - Spitser, Round Nose or FN? The answer will establish a guideline that would be useful.

Chris/Truvelloshooter/Warrior,
Broken spin doctor indeed. More like cannot read and understand English. Paranoia is the irrational fear of the imaginary. There is nothing imaginary about your post that states the GSC has produced a dud run and that our quality control is disfunctional. If you would have taken the trouble to see how our QC system works, you would have realised that a GSC bullet will only be .456" if we want it to be .456". (QC is lower down on this page, fyi.) After your mistake was pointed out by Jagter, Michael and VVarrior, you label them disciples of GSC. I support Jagter in his question: Do you read the rubbish you write?

--------------------------------

That QC page reminds me, the Ridgeback puppy has grown up and passed on and I have gone grey, I should have that picture changed.


As an aside, Gina and Anthony (fiance) will be visiting at the Shot Show in Las Vegas. They will be there on all three days. Gina flies out of SA on the 16th.

Gerard

My lovely wife is from South Africa! She does not know much about cornbread, besides the fact she loves it, and loves when we have a pot of chili on to go with it, especially in the weather we are having here right now. But, I will get a good recipe from some friends and send it to you, in the meantime I am very sure some of the other guys here on the thread have some excellent recipes. Should my mom still be alive she would have had a good one for you too!

I would be proud to be labeled a "Disciple of GSC", along with a couple of others!

Michael

Hi Michael.
When will you do the penetration tests of the .338" 250 grs Barnes banded FN and the 320 grs Woodleigh in 9,3mm?

All the best
Ulrik

Ulrik

I think I posted the test some time ago about the 320 Woodleigh FMJ, did you see that? That was before I had the two boxes end to end. The 320 Woodleigh penetrated the complete length of the box-62-64 inches of wet print, out the back of the box, 2X6 treated pine, went on 20 yds to stick in the concrete block wall, dead straight in! Took me 30 minutes to dig the bullet out of the concrete, without damaging too much. It was superb! I tested two more as I recall afterwards same results, except the concrete wall.

Ahhhh, been a little lazy with the 338s I must say. I have the loads ready, all in the 338 Ultra. High velocity, medium velocity and low velocity. Just have not got around to it yet.

I promise to get around to it, soon!

Michael

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
Ulrik

I think I posted the test some time ago about the 320 Woodleigh FMJ, did you see that? That was before I had the two boxes end to end. The 320 Woodleigh penetrated the complete length of the box-62-64 inches of wet print, out the back of the box, 2X6 treated pine, went on 20 yds to stick in the concrete block wall, dead straight in! Took me 30 minutes to dig the bullet out of the concrete, without damaging too much. It was superb! I tested two more as I recall afterwards same results, except the concrete wall.

Ahhhh, been a little lazy with the 338s I must say. I have the loads ready, all in the 338 Ultra. High velocity, medium velocity and low velocity. Just have not got around to it yet.

I promise to get around to it, soon!

Michael

Well Michael - Lazy is not what I would call you - for sure.. I think it is fantastic all the work you have done. Amazing.. I have read about your test of the 320 grs 9,3 bullets, but I thought that you would try it in your new two-box set-up. I might have misunderstood that..

A few more suggestions
Could be nice to see how the 600 OK would perform with the 900grs Barnes Banded FN at true 600 OK velocities which means 2300-2400 f/s muzzle vel. Just to compare with the loadings you tried earlier (were on 600NE level)

and
Would be nice to see a test of the 350 Grs Woodleigh FMJ in .375" as well..

And a 400 grs Barnes Banded FN in your 416 Rigby at 2500-2600 f/s

Dont know whether others (incl you Michael) find that interesting, but I do

Ulrik

No you are not incorrect concerning the 320 9.3 Woodleigh. I would like to put it in the two boxes and just see how far it will go? I just have not had that at the top of the list. I will get to it, probably when I do the 338s.

Ahhh, my buddy with the 600 OK sold it so I don't have access to one anymore. But damn, 2000 or so is a plenty!

Well, as for the "375" I don't own one of any sort. While there will be a 375 B&M JohnOMS is going to handle that, and I think a 350 is far too long for that action and cartridge anyway. I see no future in Michael owning a "375" anything. But I do think I know a chap with a 375, so the possibility of a future test is not completely out of the picture.

Now the 400 banded 416 can be done and set up. Use the same load I used for the GSCs you sent in the Rigby. I will put that on the list.

This week and next week I have several rifles to shoot in, and one in particular I have been waiting on, a .500 caliber DPMS chambered in 50 B&M SA! So I will be shooting that thing in this week, starting this morning I think. I plan on loading some photos of the beast on the B&M Thread. This should be a hoot!

Michael

Damn that I dont live nearby - I could supply all you need Except the 600 - but a 577 Tyrannosaur would work as a stand in I guess

Thanks to all for the entertainment and enlightenment!

Interesting point about the meplat of a solid used on game animals:
It has to be large enough to provide good shoulder stabilization, and also large enough to provide sufficient structural integrity on impact.
A small amount of nose swelling is not a bad thing, as long as it remains flat.

Even if made of an alloy of unobtainium-nondeformium, a meplat too small will not be sufficiently shoulder stabilized, and will tumble.

I think the rule of thumb Michael has posted on meplat size is a good one, for solid penetrators of DG.

I will dig up my Mother's cornbread recipe, best I have ever tasted, and post it here just to make the thread longer.

DRG says: "Kiss my liberal grits!"

"Cornbread" Recipe for a single 10" cast iron skillet--Suitable for Ladies,
and in bold:
"Cornpone" Big Batch Recipe, with Extras, for any cast iron skillet and nonstick baking pans or "corn dodger" cupkake pans--Redneck Satisfier--Quadruple Batch


2 cups White Lilly Buttermilk Cornmeal Mix
or
5 pounds of Martha White Self Rising Yellow Cornmeal Mix ... or any Mealie Meal available

1-1/2 cup milk or buttermilk
or
2 Quarts buttermilk

1/4 cup canola oil
or
1 cup canola oil or preferred drippins

2 large eggs, lightly beaten
or
1 dozen large eggs, stirred up not whipped

1 Tablespoon sugar, brown sugar or honey
or
1 cup of Kentucky sorghum or preferred molasses

1/4 teaspoon of baking soda
or
1 tsp of baking soda

Preheat: well greased 10" skillet in 425 degree oven
or
Preheat: Enough well greased skillets and dodger pans or nonstick pans to hold the quadruple batch in a 425 degree oven. When the smoking starts, pour the batter in before the fire alarms start sounding.

Blend all ingredients, stirring until just moistened, batter should be lumpy, but no lumps of baking soda allowed. Be sure that is well pulverized as it is sprinkled in during the stirrin.
or
Ditto

Pour: batter into preheated skillet
or
Do not pour batter all over the kitchen. Get it all into the pans and and no more than half full to top of pans, it's gonna rise some.

Bake: 20-25 minutes for a 10" skillet
or
Bake: until the bottom crust in the various pans is as dark and crispy as you like, but golden brown to light yellow on top, like many blondes women are.

Remove from pan and serve.

quote:

Bake: until the bottom crust in the various pans is as dark and crispy as you like, but golden brown to light yellow on top, like many blondes women are.

I like red over red or blonde over blonde but when the lights are out it don't matter

quote:

Redneck Satisfier

I see your Bread and raise you one pot-o-soup!!

Sausage and Ham ...

16 quart seasoned HEAVY stainless steel pot with clad bottom.
1 long handled stainless steel slotted spoon.
2 oven mitts & safety glasses or ski goggles.
1 HazMat suit or expendable clothing.
Two ½ liter bottles of chefs favored beer.
(beer is for drinking only barbarians cook with it)

½ cup Lard (DO NOT USE ANY FAT OTHER THAN PIG!!)
3 cups finely chopped fresh celery (use only blonde to pale green heart)
3 cups finely chopped fresh bell pepper (no wrinkly old stuff, darker is better)
3 cups finely chopped white or yellow onion (discard two outer layers and core)
½ cup minced Pasilla or Poblano Chiles (optional)
1 tablespoon minced garlic
3 quarts beef or seafood stock
3 quarts crushed tomatoes
5 large Laurel Bay Leaves
1 tablespoon Black Pepper
½ tablespoon White Pepper
½ tablespoon Cumin powder
½ tablespoon Cayenne powder
½ tablespoon fennel (whole seed)
2 tablespoons Kalocsai or quality Paprika.
1 tablespoon each oregano, thyme, & sage.

1/4 Cup Barbeque Sauce (optional cheater ingredient) Jack Daniels #7 or Bullseye
½ tablespoon Tobasco

2 pounds Andouille sausage (mild) cross cut into ½” sections.
1 pound Smoked LEAN! Sausage (mild) cross cut and quartered.
1 pound coarsely chopped or chunked LEAN! smoked ham.
A small amount of Tasso or Karaj can be substituted for ham or sausage.

Substitute chicken or seafood at your peril.

Heat pot thoroughly with lard at medium.
Sear sausage and ham then remove and cover.
Add celery, onion, bell pepper, & chiles.
Cook 30 minutes covered - stir often. Maintain medium heat.

Add stock and crushed tomatoes.
Add spices, garlic, bbq sauce, & Tobasco.
Cook 90 minutes covered – stir often. Maintain medium/low heat.
Add sausage and ham. (without drippings)
Reduce heat to low, cook 90 minutes covered and stir often.

Pre-Cook long grain white rice in beef or fish stock.
Serve in deep bowls over ¼ cup cooked rice.

GUMBO IS SOUP!!

quote:

GUMBO IS SOUP!!

If thick a hearty risotto

quote:

Ahhhh, been a little lazy with the 338s I must say. I have the loads ready, all in the 338 Ultra. High velocity, medium velocity and low velocity. Just have not got around to it yet.

I'll look forward to the 338 testing, especially TTSX, NP, and Swift. Maybe the 185 TTSX vs 225 TTSX. I have a window for making some decisions over the next three weeks for this year's loads. Petal-shearing fps limits would be great data and plotted against penetration.

416Tanzan

I will see what I can sneak in when I do the solids with the 338 Ultra! I have plenty of 338 caliber bullets, I am sure 225TSX and 250 TSX plus many more, not sure I have 185s, will look.

Michael

Yes, we need more tests!
As for me, I have to work off those pounds from the recipes that have been shared with us!

quote:

michael458

In the mail to you today are three (3) Rhino solids in 458 caliber. I met Chris of www.safaribullets.com, the Rhino distributer in the USA, at the DSC show. He, another employee and a PH and I had a nice chat which resulted in Chris selling me three (3) bullets at a VERY nominal cost for your testing. The PH uses these bullets in a 458 Lott at 2250.

When the test is accomplished, I'll email Chris the url for this thread.

The guys feel that the Rhino bullets will penetrate your back wall, in a straight line of course (smile).

Hey IBT

Sure, I will be looking for them! I have a couple of bullets to test for 465HH also, so will try and work them in. It's pretty damn chilly here in SC this week, even indoors it is a little cool. But will get to them asap, when I receive. I imagine the cool spot will be over in a few days anyway.

Michael

Their soft nose look excellent, probably similar to Swift-A with lead in the front expansion cavity. And the lead up front but not in back might provide for some stability increases. Some testing might bring out some pleasant surprises. The 338 has a 210, 250, 275, since they specialize in 'heavy for calibre'. I think I'd like to try some of the 210s, though no BC info is listed.

On the solids, let's see what happens, they definitely need some testing:
"The round nose of the bullet combined with its solid construction ensures straight deep penetration"

We could do a poll
How think they'll go straight?
How many think they'll veer off?
Before 60", before 50", before 40" etc?

416 Tanzan

The bullets that were provided to me have a flat point! Didn't think to ask if there had been a design change or whewn it may have happened.

quote:

We could do a poll
How think they'll go straight?
How many think they'll veer off?
Before 60", before 50", before 40" etc?

I want to play!
I don't know what the bullet weight is, but I'll assume it's 450 grains.

Just my wild guess:
I'll say the bullet will go 56" to 60" more or less straight. If the bullet has any trouble at all, this will come about 40".

I will have to wait until I see them? But for a FN 450--458 56-60 is right on the money. 500 62 +!

I think the 550 Woodleigh FMJ that 465HH sent also look good. Although RN, I think long for caliber will enhance the penetration, of course we might say in this case, "SD", over the 500 version, I predict 40 + before it starts to veer off course! Also 465HH sent some Nosler FN solids, 500s I think. They should do well. Maybe end of the week I can get to them.

Michael

quote:

450--458 56-60 is right on the money. 500 62 +!

For a 500 grainer, my little PGT (Penetration Guesser Thingy) says 62.5" to just shy of 67". If it deviates, it says about 45".
68" as a minimum (guess) for 550 grains with 72.5 as a max. But might go south at 49".
(Yes, it's my prediction but I get to blame my PGT in case it's wrong. )

Thanks for the recipes RIP and Macifej. We will try them as soon as we have found where to source all the ingredients. Jay, how many people do you feed with that recipe? Alternatively, if only three people are eating, how long does it last?

quote:

Originally posted by Gerard:
Thanks for the recipes RIP and Macifej. We will try them as soon as we have found where to source all the ingredients. Jay, how many people do you feed with that recipe? Alternatively, if only three people are eating, how long does it last?

Hmmmm ... I usually get about half dozen servings and then freeze the rest. Guess you could get a dozen or so large entree sized servings at this scale. Sounds like more than it is since a lot of the liquid (water) cooks out as steam and it's relatively thick. It should still flow easily over rice and not be thick like stew. I suggest you give it a whirl one time using your own gear and available ingredients before serving it to the uninitiated ...



I cook it and let it live in the same pot in the fridge for a couple days before freezing.

I love Bullets!







I believe in having plenty in stock! Never know when they might run short and you need that very bullet to accomplish said mission!

I am told that I am getting a delivery of 2500 + various Non Cons by the first of the week next week! That should do for awhile! Also 500--510 gr .500 caliber Solids in the same delivery!

Excellent!

Michael

Below you see an example of 550 gr Woodleighs and 500 gr Nosler Solids sent by 465HH and the 500 gr Rhino sent by I Bin Therbefor! Thanks guys, I will get these in the test box as soon as I can, right now it looks like the first of next week. The second photo is the same 3 bullets with a 500 Barnes for comparison.



Michael

In speaking with 465HH yesterday he has a great idea about a test we might be able to do concerning meplat size. If we had several samples of the same bullet, same weight, same caliber with the only difference being meplat size, it would be a reasonable test to learn a bit about meplat size and how it effects stability and penetration. I have currently put in a request for either a .500 caliber or .458 caliber bullet, between 5-10 bullets each, with meplat sizes as follows, 75% of diameter, 65% of diameter, 55% of diameter, and 45% of diameter. This should give us an across the board test that should tell some stories, with everything else being equal. This is a good test to do, it will "confirm" much. However, I will take some bets starting now, 75% and 65% will do well and stay straight. 55% and 45% will veer off course in the test mix.

Michael

There has been a tremendous amount of attention paid to the solids in this thread! I am not surprised much by this, but in other ways it does surprise me. By most folks the solid is the least used bullet in the hunting world or even the shooting world I think, yet it seems to get the most attention and the most controversy.

Me! I am different, especially since 2006 and my endeavors to get a proper .500 caliber solid for my rifles. I think I have learned a great deal about this subject. Now whether some of you want to believe or listen, that's another story! And as I have stated before, I could care less really, what I use works for me, end of story. I love solids and now use them for every hunting or shooting mission upon which I embark, even thin skinned critters from eland to impala. That's why I got so excited about some new entries into the solid market in big bores, but light for caliber, such as the Barnes 330 gr .458 caliber solid. Perfect match and same POI as my 350 Barnes TSX in the 458 B&Ms! Along with other lighter bullets in .458 caliber. These are perfect match ups with some of the Non Con bullets too. You see I figure it this way with a solid. It is common and has been for some time with buffalo to use solids behind the first shot which is a soft or expanding. Most of the time that second or third shot is at buffalo running away from you, need that penetration to get to the vitals. Well why not the same concept for other animals, eland, wildebeast, zebra, elk, moose, even bear? Of course one must be a shooter and willing to shoot more than one shot! I am not one to admire my first shot and wait to see what happens! I shoot everything until the problem is solved, after all who wants to travel 10000 miles and carry 50-100 rounds of ammo and shoot ONE TIME? Not me, I hope to go home nearly dry! Shoot'em till you can't shoot'em anymore, or the problem is solved! So with that in mind most of the animals I have shot with the first round, if not dropped on the spot they are running away from you, why not use a good solid for that rear end shot on a moose or elk or what have you? It will break bone, penetrate to the vitals, and maybe just solve the problem for you without having concerns now about that expanding bullet being able to do those sort things! So solids have been a very vital part of my gear on every trip since 2006. And it works, at least for me. So you see I probably have more use for solids than anyone here and probably have used various solids far more than most of you in the field! Makes no difference to me if I am on a plains game hunt, or buffalo, elephant and hippo are solids only. Solids are good and proper medicine for those second shots on everything! Good solids are available for every caliber that I would take to the field from 338-..500 caliber.

I have an immense interest in solid bullets because of my new attitudes towards their use. These days I also changed my attitudes to consider a good FN solid the best there is. There seems to be many of them now. A few years ago only the smaller custom makers had FN solids, now it seems every single larger manufacturer has made the move to a FN solid of some type. I wonder why that is? If made of proper materials, if quality control is good, sized correctly and such, then they just plain work extremely well in the penetration department, that is why. But that is not all! Not by far! The first time I used a FN solid on buffalo I could see a tremendous difference in reaction of that animal as opposed to all I had shot with a RN solid! The FN solids just hit harder, do more damage, transfer more trauma, just that simple! This reaction is very evident and not a fluke with one or two animals, even thin skinned species take notice! So now we have deeper penetration on average, and the FN hits harder up front to boot. Not much of a downside as I see it.

We can test until we turn blue, results are the same in the lab as they are in the field. Regardless of medium it's nearly always the same. Of course ANY bullet can, and will fail on occasion, they are made by imperfect critters, and therefore once and awhile you will have an imperfect bullet. But that is true with everything in shooting, and everything else too! I made a prediction only a couple of years ago that every major manufacturer would have a flat nose design solid or FMJ at some point. I think that has come about now, even Woodleigh and Hornady have come around. So what is all the controversy about? Even great holdouts for the RN design all admit yes,the FN penetrates deeper but they all add this: I never had a problem with my RN bullets!

Well I have! I have seen said RN bullets turn and twist and tumble in animal tissue. I have seen them turn 90 degrees and exit an animal! This is in part because of being a RN, but other factors are involved also, in this case too slow of a twist rate! That twist rate was increased and performance was much better, in both animal tissue and test mix. I figure this, for a RN to perform proper, all other things must fall in line correctly, twist rate is important for RN designs, a bit more so than for FN, but FN needs to be right too! Correct dimensions of barrel and bullet are extremely important! As mentioned before I have two 470 Capsticks and I bet the barrels are oversized, and the bullets are undersized to .472 in some cases, and I would not trust those solids to penetrate broadside a whitetail deer, much less anything else! I have recovered Woodleigh FMJs and Barnes RN Solids that had ZERO engraving on them, a little scrapping is all! No damn way that could be stable during penetration! I have also seen where a FN design negates some of these matters TO AN EXTENT with some of my wrong twist rate .500s! Now I am so aggravated with .470 caliber (.474) that I won't even do a 475 B&M or anything else! So a lot of factors come into play with solid bullets that might now show up with expanding as much.

I am sorry, rambling a bit today concerning the solids and some of the issues I see with them. But the controversies concerning the solids, the concerns over why, what, how, the cavitation or no cavitation, and on and on and on has just plain made me tired today! I think I will go and see if I can find some cornbread somewhere!

Michael

We will all look forward to the solids testings, though hopefully you'll remember to test those little 225 grain TTSX in 338.

Michael,

Corn mash will probably work better than corn bread!

465H&H

Michael458, You would have some GSC 450 .458's for those photo's had you called. Still got 'em, in case you still want to test some. Even the near 10 year old ones I am willing to part with (used the rest) would be a great addition to your testing. And I think Gerard would be happy to get you the .500 bullets you are looking for, if you order enough, but I'm sure you will! Thanks for your posts by the way, always enjoy reading them and looking at pictures (I'm a simple man) :-)

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:
Michael,

Corn mash will probably work better than corn bread!

465H&H

465HH


Why that's an excellent Idea! I think I can find what I need right here at the Bad To the Bone Bar!


I'll be right back!
Michael