quote:

Originally posted by Nitro Express:
The way I've always taught gun safety--to my sons and others--is simply that when the action on a firearm is closed, the gun is loaded and must be treated that way. Doesn't matter if you KNOW the gun is unloaded--if it is in "fireable" condition, it's loaded.

So, if the action on a shotgun is forward, it's loaded; on a double, if the gun is closed, it's loaded. If the bolt is closed on a rifle, it loaded--and so on and so on.

Given that way of thinking, there's no reason not to hunt with a round in the chamber and the safety on.

So pretending that the firearm is hot prevents accidental falls, rocks slipping loose, accidentally dropping the rifle? Interesting.

Someone that hunts from a pickup, or sits in a stand probably has nothing to worry about. However, I typically spend the majority of my time in pretty steep country walking on uneven terrain and over loose rocks. If i don;t fall at least 25 times a day, I'm not in the right place.

"Someone that hunts from a pickup"


One of the most dangerous situations with a firearm IMHO - moving vehicle, chance to fall out etc etc.

In this situation I do actually keep the gun unloaded. Too many things can go wrong.

quote:

Originally posted by RDB:

But if you think it is only a half second difference between carrying a round in the chamber and loading as you shoulder the gun I think you need to try that on a timer.

In the comfort of my office I did. An accurate 1 sec snap shot isn't terribly difficult from a port arms ready. Same position, loading from the magazine with an accurate shot would likely dbl that time to 2.0 sec.

So either you are arguing that you don't have the ability to chamber a round as you shoulder the rifle, or you are arguing that it takes less than a half second longer than I estimated and that half second is absolutely the difference between having a shot or not?

For fun, I just shoudlered one of my rifles a bunch of times while cycling the bolt. If it took any extra time, it was imperceptible.

quote:

Guns that fire when they hit the ground are defective. You may not want to trust a manual safety but they actually work as designed and very, very seldom fail. Generally when I hear of a gun going off during a fall...it simply means the owner had his finger in the trigger with the safety off. Happened to General Patton so not like you will be immune to similar stupidity if you don't pay attention.

Really? The only times guns AD is when a person has their finger on the trigger? Safeties never fail? Are you willing to bet your life on that?

How about this scenario? Guy carrying a hot rifle trips in some brush. On the way down his safety is hit by a branch and moves to the fire position. Upon impact, the trigger guard lands on some rocks or sticks. Do you think there might be an outside chance that the trigger might move?

How many times have you seen a guy check his rifle, either in the field or at the range, and be surprised that the safety is not engaged? I saw it at least a half dozen times at the range last weekend.

Ultimately the only argument that the carry hot crowd has (aside from DG situations) is that they might lose a game animal because of either the extra noise, movements or time.

A) I am willing to live with a lost animal occasionally if it means that I decrease the odds of killing myself or someone else to near zero.

B) I don't seem to suffer the affliction that most here do, in that I can actually cycle the bolt while I shoulder the rifle.

C) There may be more noise by cycling the bolt, it may or may not make a difference. If it spooks an animal, see A.

D) I don't accept the premise that chambering a round takes any longer than mounting the rifle if done properly, but for the sake of argument, let's accept the premise. If it really does take a full second longer, then you probably weren't going to get a good shot off anyway, and if the second does make a difference, see A.

quote:

If i don;t fall at least 25 times a day, I'm not in the right place.

If I fall more than once a season hunting (or with a gun in hand, ever) I figure I am doing something wrong. Just say'in...

My other past time off the internet.

quote:

For fun, I just shoudlered one of my rifles a bunch of times while cycling the bolt. If it took any extra time, it was imperceptible.
..
Really? The only times guns AD is when a person has their finger on the trigger? Safeties never fail? Are you willing to bet your life on that?

One man's "imperceptible" is anothers unacceptable. I'll leave the time frames up to you.

I have seen literally millions of rounds go down range as an instructor and competitive shooter. Only ADs I have seen (or heard about EVER) have been when someone pulled the trigger. Seen every thing from a M203 to a .22 hit the ground and never seen one go off by itself. Sure anything is possible so is getting hit by lightening. But that is easily avoided as well. Guns don't scare me. Inattentive, (like people who fall down a lot with a firearm in their hand) inexperienced or uneducated people scare me.

Thankfully it seems a few people who are scared of their own guns, don't understand how they work and question their ability to safely carry their weapons with a round chambered, don't.

Good idea imo.

"Law and order every time, that's us"

quote:

Thankfully it seems a few people who are scared of their own guns, don't understand how they work and question their ability to safely carry their weapons with a round chambered, don't.

Good idea imo.

"Law and order every time, that's us"

Nice try but you are missing the point. I am neither scared of my weapons nor feel lacking the ability to hunt safe.
I simply realize a safety can not be trusted 100% of the time and I have the utmost confidence in my ability to shoulder my rifle while chambering a round. Why would that bother anyone else?

You obviously find your skill and knowledge of firearms comfortable for you and your needs. Nothing wrong with that.

But I don't think I have missed the point. Just a different perspective from yours based on my own experience.

Perhaps this somehow may relate back to the old Colt single-action revolver with no safety and carried with the hammer on an empty cylinder?
If one is hunting above treeline and has good visability and poor footing, then an empty chamber on a rifle would be reasonable. But in forest or bush where one may come upon game at close range unexpectedly, chambering a round will be all it takes to get most game going full tilt.

Any of you fellows ever bird hunt behind dogs? Well let me tell you, chambers are loaded and you do not know where the birds are going when they flush,; barrels are swinging. I rarely bird hunt with someone I am not trusting of and seldom with more than two shooters and perhaps a dog handler.
I hunt a lot of birds! you need to know where everyone in your party is all the time and learn how to carry your gun.

EZ

quote:

Originally posted by SGraves155:
Perhaps this somehow may relate back to the old Colt single-action revolver with no safety and carried with the hammer on an empty cylinder?

Good point Steve. The Colt SAA and most of the early lever guns relied on a half cock safety.

To differing degrees none are totally safe carried with a round in the chamber. All will fire if hit on the hammer or dropped hard enough if a round is chambered.

Even Browning used a half cock notch on the 1911. Backed up of course by a mechnical locking thumb safety, mechnical block in the grip safety and another mechnical safety, the disconnector safety so the gun can not fire out of battery. 4 safeties on one gun and still "state of the art" for a modern combat pistol.

Still not enough to keep Gen. Patton from shooting a hole in the floor. Holstering while his finger was on the trigger. Patton went back to the SAA with hammer down on an empty chamber and later a S&W 357 known as the 357 Registered Magnum with no safety! Bet he carried 5 in the S&W as well.

Not like anyone who prefers an empty chamber is in "bad" comapny

I never chamber a round until I am going to shoot at an animal. I mainly hunt caribou,musk-ox ,moose,wolf, and once ina awhile Grizzly.
I was tauhgt this way to hunt for safety reasons and I have never not gotten a shot off because of not having a round in the chamber.
When I hunted in Africa , I still did not chamber a round until I needed too.
Except when we were in real heavy brush going after cape buffalo and they were really close to us. You could hear,smell, and see thier legs but not their bodies. I had a round in the chamber for a chance shot on a big buffalo or if a buffalo charged
joe

quote:

Originally posted by RDB:


I have seen literally millions of rounds go down range as an instructor and competitive shooter. Only ADs I have seen (or heard about EVER) have been when someone pulled the trigger. Seen every thing from a M203 to a .22 hit the ground and never seen one go off by itself. Sure anything is possible so is getting hit by lightening. But that is easily avoided as well. Guns don't scare me. Inattentive, (like people who fall down a lot with a firearm in their hand) inexperienced or uneducated people scare me.

Ever seen an M60 have a "cook off" ? it happens.

Only gun I've seen fire by itself without the trigger being pulled.

.

quote:

Originally posted by 500N:
Ever seen an M60 have a "cook off" ? it happens.

Sure but we are reaching now Most any full auto can be ran long enough and hot enough to start cooking rounds. But then they aren't ADs are they? Even on GI ammo first one might be but ya gotta know it's coming.

How about M2s so hot they start putting rounds through the barrel once they start sagging? Heard the stories and always wondered, in so many ways, just how messy that had to be.

Here in UK I suppose that your type of hunting would be called "woodland stalking". That is you blunder about in the woods - quietly and with stealth and wind awareness - until you come upon something that you see before it sees you OR if it does see you doesn't react by flight.

A genuine "target of opportunity" as it were. And for that - just as we do here in UK with our shot guns when "walking up" or "rough shooting" - the best thing is the gun between BOTH hands at a rough high port position and a round (or rounds in case of a double gun) chambered with the safety catch on.

quote:

On the way down his safety is hit by a branch and moves to the fire position. Upon impact, the trigger guard lands on some rocks or sticks. Do you think there might be an outside chance that the trigger might move?

Here in UK on expensive double guns we invented "intercepting sears" to cover that possibility and were always taught that on a less expensive shot gun the safety only blocks the trigger and NOT the internal hammers.

CASII:
To take your logic one step further, even futher than IS did, here are some other safety tips you might want to look at:

Turn natural gas off at the outside of your house. If no gas is coming in, there is no chance of a leak in the house to build up an explosive situation.
Same with electrical. Turn it off at the main box outside the house. No electricity in the house, no chance of an electrical fire.
Keep your vehicle fuel tanks empty when the vechicle is in the garage, or near the house, or even on the street. If you do that, there is no chance of a fire starting and you can just spend the few extra minutes it takes to put the gas in the vehicle before you need to go.

Absouletely absurd, yes, of course it is! But if the concern is safety, well let's do it!
I always carry a round in the chamber, safety on, and finger OFF the trigger when I am hunting. In 25+ years of hunting every season, have never had an accidental discharge.
Yes accidents, falls, dropped guns could possible cause a discharge, but then again that could happen the moment you chamber a round and before you get into final position to shoot.
Common sense...that is the real key!

This caught my eye and imagination in this thread.

"Nunavut is both the least populous and the largest in geography of the provinces and territories of Canada. It has a population of 29,474,[2] mostly Inuit, spread over an area the size of Western Europe. Nunavut is also home to the northernmost permanently inhabited place in the world."

More:



The Nunavut government does not think the polar bear should be classified as a species of special concern under the federal Species at Risk Act, says territorial Environment Minister Daniel Shewchuk. "Based on hunter observations, polar bears are presently still healthy and abundant across Nunavut — and for that reason, not a species of special concern."

Read more: http://www.cbc.ca/canada/north...ef=rss#ixzz0v7djuSpU

CAS II,

here's another one of those possibilities you forgot.
You are walking thru the woods, with a round in the chamber. A bolt of lightning strikes the receiver and detonates the round. You are killed when the projectile hits you in the head.
At least as likely as yours...

Ask your local law enforcement agencies what they think about your safety precautions as a carry option for their uniform patrol or detectives.

Rich
DRSS

did anybody mention dick cheney, do i pull over ever time i see a toyota, this whole thing got started by someone talking about removing safteys and/ or walking around with the saftey off looking for wounded game
im still at a loss as to why would you do that?
anybody else in the world do that

I'll disagree with the gas in the car idea of leaving the tank empty. unless you were then to fill it with water you'd have fumes in it, which are more volatile and explode versus burn.

just remember when you argue with an........ anyways, they pull you down you don't pull you up.

I'd start a better more interesting thread but can't think of one off hand.

Red

quote:

Keep your vehicle fuel tanks empty when the vechicle is in the garage, or near the house, or even on the street. If you do that, there is no chance of a fire starting and you can just spend the few extra minutes it takes to put the gas in the vehicle before you need to go.

I was going to make the same point as Dago Red. In fact the cause of a least one 'plane crash was just that..."empty" (but filled with fumes) fuel tanks.

When safe and legal there is a round in the chamber.

This thread reminded me of my grandfather. Every time my brothers and I got in his vehicle, we reached over and took the shell out of the chamber of whatever gun he had. Whether it was quail season or deer season or no season, he always had a gun in the truck and it was always fully loaded. He would protest that the safety was on but that didn't matter to us, we always unloaded the chamber in a vehicle. He shot a hole in the floorboards once and one went through the roof once too.
Anyway, back to this thread. If I'm hunting, there is one in the chamber. Note that I said hunting, riding a horse or a truck is not hunting, that's called looking. The exception is something like a Mod94 where you don't have an adequate safety. While you're putting a round in your chamber, I'll be gutting

Personally- I'm ALWAYS in HUNTING mode! I carry my Nighthawk cocked and locked 24/7 and when actually hunting GAME animals ( as differentiated from 2 legged ones) I ALWAYS carry my gun with a round in the chamber and safety on ( usually). Like my american express card, I never leave home without it! A gun without a round in the chamber is the definition of a "USELESS TOOL" IMHO.-Rob

I will add my nickles worth to this subject.

A. I always hunt with a round chambered, action cocked, Safety engaged, Finger off of the trigger.

B. I then follow the NRA's Three Rules for Safe Gun Handling:

1. Always keep the muzzle pointing in a safe direction.

2. Always keep your finger off of the trigger until ready to shoot.

3. Always store the gun with the action open and gun unloaded until you're ready to use it. *If I am hunting, I am using it*

Now I will expand a bit. If you are always pointing the muzzle in a Safe direction you may have an accident, but it won't be nearly as bad as it could have been.

A Safety is a mechanical device and it can fail. It is not a DoAll, it is an aid. You are the Safety. You must be thinking and practicing safe gun handling at all times so that it becomes second nature.

One more important safety concern is "Know your target and what is beyond".

Two in the chamber's for me.....

my grandad taught me
if you don't have time to put one in the chamber ,you don't have time to shoot.
living and hunting in grizzly country i do take some exception to this sage advice.
but if i'm not in thick timber,empty chamber
full magizine.
i''l load the chamber in the final stages of a stalk or if, when the sound of working the action will alert the prey,
zero chance of an accident
with an empty chamber.
empty chamber on a horse or in a vehicle

If the firearm is under complete control (i.e in my hands or secured in a proper holster) I carry it in Condition 1 (loaded, cocked & locked). However, if the rifle leaves my hands for any reason without becoming the responsibility of another person I return to Condition 3. That means if I am carrying the rifle with a sling I carry it in Condition 3. If I am eating lunch with my rifle securely propped or laying down its in Condition 3 or I'll open and partially withdraw the bolt while I am stopped. The only time you can have complete control of a rifle is when it is in YOUR hands. It is unsafe to hunt with a Condition 1 rifle carried by a sling or any other way that is not in a hunter's hands.

I love this type of question cuz the same ole "if you dont do it my way, your a friggin idiot" attitude comes out.

I dont chamber a round unless I'm ready to shoot or if I find fresh bear sign. I havent lost any game yet. I guess I'm an idiot in the woods.

I do carry locked and loaded in town.

Each to there own.

Ketchikan,

shamey-shamey Potty Mouth!

I would hazard a guess that you are an expert on "accidental discharges", more likely than not being the result of one yourself...

Be careful, talking like this in public here could put you on the bench with your buddy busheler.

regards,

Rich
DRSS


Joel, nobody (except you) said you were an idiot. One of the necessary ingredients to carrying on an intelligent conversation is the ability to disagree, and to be able to distinguish between discussions with you as a person, VS your opinion on something. We all engage in counterproductive behaviour from time to time. An opinion must be supportable. You simply cannot take it as a personal attack.

All of u that don't chamber a round....how do you carry your double rifles, double guns, single shots, etc. I can't tell u how many birds I would have lost if my double was not loaded......
Mac

IS, I could care less what folks think of me. this is the fricken internet. Go back and re-read some of the posts. Alot of holier than thou mentalities. ie: if you cant carry a rifle with a loaded chamber you shouldnt be out there, etc.

Like I said, I really dont care how folks carry in the field. each to there own.

First of all, in my post, I used the word ABSURD, so the gas tank comments are really moot as this was meant as SARCASM, and not being serious..sorry that was apparently lost on a couple of you.
Second, and I do mean this with respect, some of you carry "cocked and locked" with a hand gun, yet don't trust yourselves with a round in the chamber of a rifle or shotgun, with the safety on, and the gun in your hands not in a holster, or other means of carry on themselves...this seems to be a little strange to me as a handgun can cause as much damage with an AD as can a rifle or shotgun...

Mac, I dont have a double, I dont own a shotgun (the wife has 3 though) and I dont bird hunt. I understand what your saying and I dont condemn folks who hunt with a hot chamber.

I just choose not to.

Alan, for me is because I have had my safety knocked to the "fire position" while sheep hunting and going through alders and didnt realize it.

On my hip, the safety on my 1911 is not gonna be accidently hit.

Right or wrong it works for me.

quote:

It is unsafe to hunt with a Condition 1 rifle carried by a sling or any other way that is not in a hunter's hands.

In my opinion this is one of the core reason alot of hunters think they have better control of their muzzle then they really do. Once the average white tail hunter has been hiking for a coulple hours, he starts gettting tired, and slings his rifle, The rifle droops on his shoulder, and the muzzle is not longer pointed straight up, but at the head of the person behind him, and that's usually my head Front carry slings are almost as bad. Again, the hunter gets tired, turned to to talk with his buddy, and momentarily sweeps him with his muzzle. It's interesting to me, how many people in this discussion seem to forget that we are fallable human, using fallable mechanical devices.

I also think, that to a large degree, this thread was influnced by bing posted in the big-bore section. Alot of the big bore guys hunt Africa, where there are alot more critter that can eat you. That's not hunting, that Dangerous Game Hunting, and calls for a significant re-evaluation of the rules.

In addittion, I';m amazed that some members would compare the service of our Law Enforcement and Military Serive members with hunting Bambi. I have yet to see a whitetail equiped with a suicide vest and 40 pounds of semtex. What our LE amd military do is not hunting, it's DUTY. Duty carry and hunting are two completly different games. If our men and women in uniform don't have a round in the chamber it could mean the difference in them not coming home to their family. On the other hand, if I go hunting and don't come home it would most likely be because of some Bubba wannabe, who thinks he's infaliable, running around the woods with a round in his chamber.

Infallible is the preferred spelling...

We're running about 95% carry loaded nationwide (includes Colorado). Looks like you may have to stay at home this fall.

Rich
DRSS

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
Infallible is the preferred spelling...

We're running about 95% carry loaded nationwide (includes Colorado). Looks like you may have to stay at home this fall.

Rich
DRSS[/QUOTE

And the majority elected Obama, whats your point
Gotta add a little humor here to keep the tempers down.

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
We're running about 95% carry loaded nationwide (includes Colorado). Looks like you may have to stay at home this fall

and 95%+ of folk who sell their goods on ARbay send them in quick time after payment....but you strongly defend those that dont.

All of my rifles are old style and will only shoot with a round in the chamber. So I load it, put on the safety and go hunting. No accidents yet 30 something years of sport.

Trax,

especially those who have a years long positive track record that I like.

The ability to remain 100% objective escapes me, what sort of batting average do you have? If you've been married more than once or ever raised your voice to a child under six you have failed at least once.

Besides, this ain't about me. Try to stay on track.

It's about the opinions of those who carry loaded and why and those who choose not to and why. More specifically those who say they remove the safeties from their rifles.

Focus man, focus...

Rich
DRSS