Snow,

I treat every gun as it's loaded. Whether it does or does not have bullets in it. Just because the guns in my safe have no bullets in them, does NOT mean I treat them any different than the one loaded gun sitting in my night stand.

I'm sorry you think that's weird.



Joel,

I surely do not walk on water.

I will answer your question again. Here's my answer AGAIN to your question:

Because several examples given by those of the "empty chamber" crowd have been for those times when you are pointing a gun at another person, it is safer to have an empty chamber. Various examples have been stated in both this thread, and the previous thread that spawned this one.

As if it's suddenly OK to point a gun at a person, just because you are such a safe hunter that you've left your chamber empty.

That is the "unsafe" mindset I, and others that disagree with you are talking about.

It's still the same foul whether the gun is loaded or not.

I didn't vote for Obama either. Might as well call me a liar over that one too.

quote:

I have never, not one time in my life, ever pointed a rifle or handgun at anyone accidentally.

Really?? You are absolutely positive??
I've belive you are not AWARE of ever pointing your muzzle at anyone. Everytime I"ve chewed someone's back side for pointing their muzzle at me, they didn't know they were doing it until I brought it to their attention.

quote:

hunting with an empty chamber is completely pointless.

Again Really? Are you suggestion it's impossible to enjoy a sunset, a campfire, walking through the woods with family and frinds because I choose to raise my rifle and chamber a round with one motion? So none of my game is really dead, because I chambered a round just before I pulled the trigger?

In the end, I'm sure I would be pretty safe around you "There is only one firearm in my house that has bullets in it." If it only has "bullets" in it, it won't go off even if you do pull the trigger.

If you hunt with me, you know the firearm is loaded. If I hunt with you I am never 100% sure, unless I get to check it. Even then, if it passes out of my control I would never be sure.
I would take your word if you said it was loaded. I can't take your word if you say it is empty once you get out of line of sight.

Rich
DRSS

Ah yes, Antelope Sniper,

The guy that thinks it's no big deal to point an unloaded gun at a person. And you're going to lecture me about gun safety.

Yes I am sure. I don't give a crap what you "belive" (it's believe by the way).

You are the one, who has at least TWICE given the example I mentioned about pointing guns at people, as the reason why you don't chamber a round.

Joel,

You're buddy Sniper here is the living, breathing example I was speaking about. He is your answer.

quote:

I can't take your word if you say it is empty

I never would want you to take my word for it. I would expect you to treat my cold chambered rifle just like you would treat any other rifle.

quote:

The guy that thinks it's no big deal to point an unloaded gun at a person. And you're going to lecture me about gun safety

I never said I did it, and I never said it was no big deal. I've give examples of HOT CHAMBERS being pointed AT ME and you better belive I consider it a BIG FLIPPING DEAL.

Slim, I hear where your coming from but you automatically assume we do whatever we want with muzzle control just cuz we are not hot. Steriotypical...again.

I treat my rifle as if it were loaded or not the same way.

Nice try. so much for folks thinking with an open mind. As for sniper that your referring to. I dont speak for him. My name is Joel not sniper. If you have a beef with him, take it up with him.

I still havent gotton a good answer on whats wrong with carrying with a cold chamber.

I'm sure I will be waiting a while.

Joel,

I don't really have a beef with anyone. Not even Super Sniper there. I do get a bit tired of being preached at, as do most people.

Normally I stay out of these multi-page pissing contests.

I think I'm done with this one.

Y'all have a nice night (yes, even Sniper).

The importance is that we all follow the basic rules of firearm safety. I believe how the individual hunter carries the firearm, be it one in the chamber or not, is that individual's personal preference and not mine, as long as the basic rules of firearm safety are followed.

As to the weapon being unloaded for safety reasons:

- It is not unloaded and made safe w/ a bolt closed on an empty chamber w/ a mag box full of cartridges!

- It is not unloaded and made safe w/ a bolt open w/ an empty chamber and the mag box full of cartridges!!

- It is not unloaded and made safe w/ the bolt closed on an empty chamber w/ an empty mag box.

IT IS ONLY UNLOADED AND MADE SAFE w/ the bolt open w/ an empty chamber and an empty mag box, preferably w/ the floor plate open or magazine removed. And only then after the chamber and mag box have been checked twice and preferably re-checked by a second person.

Even then, the same basic rules of firearm safety apply in that you treat the weapon as being loaded and ready to fire.

My personal preference, if the weapon is in my immediate control while hunting, is that it is loaded w/ the safety engaged until I'm ready to send a round down range. When in a situation that requires I give up control of the weapon, or when in a situation that requires risky maneuvering where I may easily loose control of the weapon, I'll then open the action and empty the chamber. In some situations, I'll also empty the magazine.

When the firearm is in your control, the muzzle will only go and point where you place it. You must exercise enough good judgement to know when you are in a situation beyond your capabilities to maintain control of your weapon. You must continue to practice the basics of firearm safety when you judge that you are in such a situation. This may include unloading and making safe the weapon.

Best

Being that this is an African hunting forum, I suspect you will have numerous folks in your hunting contingency in the field. Generally speaking when I am hunting domestically, I am by myself or possibly with one other individual (rifle hunting).
I have always found that hunting with fewer people is always better, not just from a safety perspective, but there is less noise, less scent, and less movement to attract attention.
I always hunt with a round in the chamber unless I am in challenging terrain where there is a great chance of slipping or losing your footing and then I will remove a cartridge.

I think a great deal of these "safety first" opinions were taught to us by folks who spent more time "at the Range" than in actually hunting and for the average non-gun savy individual makes sense. However, lets think out of the box for a second. An experienced hunter is well aware that speed can be eveything. There are times when you just dont have time or dont want to keep a gun un-loaded. Personally I practice one very very important aspect of gun handling. I keep my finger off the trigger until I'm ready to shoot. I practice muzzel control religiously but I doubt there REALLY is a one of us who hasn't ever swept someone at some time. However guns dont go off by themselves and if you keep your finger away from the trigger it never will even accidentally go off. The best safety is the one between your ears! Walked alot of miles behind guys carrying a loaded gun with safety off and never had a issue. They all felt perfectly safe at least from me too!-Rob

What RGB said, plus one!

Rich
DRSS

I fired 1200 rounds this weekend inside, out of and around automobiles in groups of 2-16 and didn't flag anyone. Didn't use an unloaded weapon either.

It's a training issue, thats all.

Round in the chamber when hunting.
How in the world could I sneak up on a buffalo then chamber a round just before I shoot? Wouldn't the buffalo just leave when he hears the noise of a bolt closing?

You sneak up on him real stealthy like ( from the back because it wont work if he can see you) then swing the gun by the barrel and wack him over the head! Buff will die of a combination of surprise and indignity if you do this correctly. Many professional hunters use this technique when they hunt Buff without a round in the chamber. -Rob

quote:

How in the world could I sneak up on a buffalo then chamber a round just before I shoot? Wouldn't the buffalo just leave when he hears the noise of a bolt closing?

When you cay buffalo, I assume you mean Cape Buffalo. Having never hunted a Cape, let me ask you this. Typically when you site a Cape Buffalo, how fare away is he, and how much wind is there? My guesses are, not very far, and zero wind. If this is the case, you would have to let these conditions inform your decision.

If you are asking American Bison, they live in a much different enviroment. They like to roam in open area's, so the typical initial sighting is often between 200 and 1000 yards. Throw a little wind on that, and the Bison will never hear you chamber the round.

This debate (polite term for argument)seems to involve about a half-dozen, or so, dedicated hunters from the USA... May I have the temerity to speak from North of The Border?

Yesterday I was delivering a new load of bait for bears in some of my favorite locales. The bears devoured, or carried off, all that had been put there the previous week (without asking permission to do so, I might add).

Anyway, one of these bait sites is very remote from any help should one (or more) of the bears mistake the grocery boy for the groceries! Add to that the fact that I was alone and surrounded by 3-foot tall grass and other vegetation, including some dense woods and a bog that extends for many (like 20)miles to the north and east.

On arriving at the scene, everything was missing except for a couple of plastic 5 gal buckets! But the trails through the 3-foot high vegetation recalled visions of African savanna where lion and leopard hide in the grass waiting to pounce! If a hungry or ill-tempered bear had been there I couldn't have seen it until I would have just about stumbled over it!

Now, to put this in perspective: a few mile to the north a hunter was nearly killed by a 350 lb black bear this past spring as he was putting out a food plot for deer hunting this November. He was alone and without a rifle. He climbed a tree and the bear pulled him out of it and started to eat him! The bear removed a lot of flesh from his legs and he passed out. He doesn't know for how long, but when he "revived" the bear was gone (probably with the intent of returning). Somehow he was rescued and is still in rehab but will never walk or climb as in the past!

Purpose of this true incident? When I got out of my van, the first thing I did was load my .45-70! I do a lot of bear hunting and some guiding... In the areas where I hunt, the bear population is exploding and there are more "incidents" as time goes by, including deaths.

For the sake of 465 H&H, may I firmly state that "big bears" suggest grizzly, brown and polar... But facts teach us they are not the most dangerous! The black (whatever size) holds that record! If that mauled hunter had considered EVERY bear as dangerous he would have saved himself (and family) a lot of grief! That's just like considering every firearm a loaded one!

I support the majority here.

Bob

www.bigbores.ca

Bob,
I consider any bear over 100 lbs to be big when it comes to their being dangerous.

465H&H

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:
Bob,
I consider any bear over 100 lbs to be big when it comes to their being dangerous.

465H&H

No offense intended.

Bob

www.bigbores.ca

What 465 said. A hundred pound black bear will wool you to death and then eat you.

Rich
DRSS

Once upon a time I was hunting caribou in Alaska with my 450/400 3 1/4".
As we left camp I "loaded up".

My guide said, "Do you always walk around with a loaded gun?"

I said "Yes ALWAYS". I then said "I appreciate your concern, we have not hunted together before, tell you what, IF at ANY time on this hunt you look back, and my barrels are pointing at you, I will let you carry ALL of my ammo for the rest of the Hunt".

He looked back a few times on the first day, and we were in some rough, thick, and steep country. It was never spoken of again...

After seeing this informative depiction of what hazards await the typical whietail hunter in the field, I've had a change of heart and will from now on carry cocked and locked with a sweaty finger on the trigger, a steely squint in my eye, and hatred in my heart, ready for action at the slightest sound.





Just a bit of levity on this all too serious thread.

Bob

I think some of the posts at first blush sound as though the posters are on different sides of the topic, but in reality, some are actively engaged in the hunting mode the minute their boots hit the ground out of the truck or out of the front door. Others are engaged in arduous journeys on foot with great amounts of downtime and glassing with ample distance and time prior to gearing up for a hunting mode stalk. Though both situation may sound greatly different in terms of loaded chamber or not, both are actually on the same page.

As for those who may be actively engaged in a stalk with rifle in hand yet with an empty chamber with the intent to only chamber just prior to sending a round downrange, that I do not understand. It's the individual hunter's choice, but I just cannot grasp the rhyme or reason for this later technique.

Best

quote:

Originally posted by GaryVA:
I think some of the posts at first blush sound as though the posters are on different sides of the topic, but in reality, some are actively engaged in the hunting mode the minute their boots hit the ground out of the truck or out of the front door. Others are engaged in arduous journeys on foot with great amounts of downtime and glassing with ample distance and time prior to gearing up for a hunting mode stalk. Though both situation may sound greatly different in terms of loaded chamber or not, both are actually on the same page.

As for those who may be actively engaged in a stalk with rifle in hand yet with an empty chamber with the intent to only chamber just prior to sending a round downrange, that I do not understand. It's the individual hunter's choice, but I just cannot grasp the rhyme or reason for this later technique.

Best

Very well said. Couldnt agree more.

For me it depends on the terrain, whether I am hunting with someone, etc.

Most of the time I am content to have rounds in the magazine and jack one in the chamber when I get to a destination where I plan to stay for awhile. Especially if I am hunting with a companion who is nearby, or if I am hunting in bad terrain where I the possibility of slipping and falling more easily.

On the other hand, if I am still hunting in easy terrain by myself I may chamber a round while hunting.

From judging myself on the way I have thought about this issue during my life, when I was a young guy I always had a round in the chamber because I was so damn worried that I was going to see something and not get a crack at it. Now, in my much older years, I realize that being out in the woods and enjoying the walk and the scenery and being alive is way more important than getting a shot at a fleeting animal. Doesn't mean I don't want to shoot what I am hunting for. Rather, that I would much prefer to take an opportunity for a good shot where I have time to look things over and make sure of everything before I shoot, which generally gives me time to put one in the chamber.

With regard to the "logic" of not keeping a round in the chamber at all times, every year that I have been hunting (a fairly long time) I have read the stories and even heard the stories about the freak hunting "accidents" that have killed and injured people. My own brother in law fell out of a tree stand and severely injured his back. When that happened his loaded gun also fell and discharged even though it was "on safe". Fortunately it did not hit him. But others have been found dead in the woods with a bullet hole in their head or their heart or some other vital place, and many a person has been lucky enough to have been found alive after having shot themself.
Just a few years ago a father thought his gun was on safe and ended up shooting and killing his son. Statistically, the risk is very low.
Probably lower than not wearing your seat belt in a car. But I don't think anyone should be challenged one single bit for their choice to carry their weapon without a round in the chamber while hunting.

Round chambered, bolt handle up.

quote:

Originally posted by 22WRF:
With regard to the "logic" of not keeping a round in the chamber at all times, every year that I have been hunting (a fairly long time) I have read the stories and even heard the stories about the freak hunting "accidents" that have killed and injured people. My own brother in law fell out of a tree stand and severely injured his back. When that happened his loaded gun also fell and discharged even though it was "on safe". Fortunately it did not hit him.

I'm not sure I read a single post advocating keeping a round in the chamber at all times. Maybe I missed it, but it seems that every single post on both sides of the discussion advocate making their rifles safe at some point based on the situation. I think it boils down to when you are actively hunting, most keep a round in the chamber when they feel the conditions are safe, while on the other hand, a very few never keep a round in the chamber under any condition until just before they fire the rifle.

Sorry about your brother-in-law and I was not a witness to make any post-judgments, but being you used this as an example:

One should universally not climb with a loaded rifle in hand and/or a slung loaded rifle. One should not climb in a treestand without a climbing device such as a prusik cord and one should not be handling a loaded rifle in a treestand until wearing a proper safety device. Even then, one should not have a loaded rifle unless the rifle is under their immediate control.

This goes along the lines of climbing fences, handing rifles to second persons, navigating difficult grades, etc., etc. These are not issues with the rifle's mechanical safety, these are issues with the hunter's safety that rests between his or her ears.

In addition, a hunter who fears that hunting with a loaded rifle may force them to shoot too quickly making a mistake prior to judging the animal, and therefore they keep the rifle unloaded to force them to slow down, that person has issues beyond the rifle. Loaded or not, you should not point your rifle at anything you do not want to shoot and you should not place your finger into the triggergard until ready to fire. Having a round in the chamber will not force you to violate such basic firearm safety rules.

Best

quote:

Originally posted by tin can:
Round chambered, bolt handle up.

How do you navigate the backcountry. If I were to carry as you describe, without my hand on the bolt handle when the lugs are unlocked and disengaged with a round on the bolt face, one slight bump or snag, and the bolt will withdraw to the rear ejecting the round.

How do you make this work when afield?

Best

Thousands of men carry a rifle loaded and safety applied every day...they are the military and police of every nation.

considering the IQ of many 'privates' in many armies and the low rate of Ad's...it is safe to say that you can even teach a monkey to carry a loaded rifle without having an accident...of course, it takes time and repetition to teach monkeys...and there isn't much difference between them and some folks I have met - but it can be done.

As 465 and ISS have said...if the rifle is fully loaded there are no misconceptions that it is safe. I have (sadly) found people invarablty treat a gun known to be loaded with more respect and attention to detail than one that is assumed to be empty.

So in a single shot you are supposed to have an empty chamber???????!!!!!??????!!!!?????!!!??!?!?!?!?!?!?!??????!!

quote:

Originally posted by GaryVA:

quote:

Originally posted by tin can:
Round chambered, bolt handle up.

How do you navigate the backcountry. If I were to carry as you describe, without my hand on the bolt handle when the lugs are unlocked and disengaged with a round on the bolt face, one slight bump or snag, and the bolt will withdraw to the rear ejecting the round.

How do you make this work when afield?

Best

I guess I watch what I'm doing- haven't lost one yet, or shot anyone.

Mostly I carry one in the chamber. Exceptions are while in a vehicle or climbing.

I used to always have one in the chamber while in the field but one time I fell while sheep hunting and as I helplessly slid down the hill with my rifle sliding down out of reach, my rifle was pointed the whole time at my partner uphill from me. Since then I no longer keep one in the chamber while on steep hills or going through terribly thick cover.

I can chamber a round very fast and have no woories about missing a shot to having to chamber a round first.

Personaly I lock the ammo up in the back of the jeep when hunting, and if I see a game animal I want to shoot, I run full speed back up the canyon to the jeep and grab the ammo. Of course I leave my rifle where I saw the animal in order to remain safe while running thru the hills, as it would be dangerous to do otherwise, as one could trip and impale yourself with the barrel.
Then if I can find my rifle again, and if the animal is still there, I dig the ammo out of my pocket, load it and take the shot. When returning to the jeep, I once again, take either the ammo, or the rifle back first, then return for the other.
I have found this method 100% safe, although I have lost a half a dozen rifles, get very tired, and have never been taken home any meat!

quote:

Originally posted by DWright:
Personaly I lock the ammo up in the back of the jeep when hunting, and if I see a game animal I want to shoot, I run full speed back up the canyon to the jeep and grab the ammo. Of course I leave my rifle where I saw the animal in order to remain safe while running thru the hills, as it would be dangerous to do otherwise, as one could trip and impale yourself with the barrel.
Then if I can find my rifle again, and if the animal is still there, I dig the ammo out of my pocket, load it and take the shot. When returning to the jeep, I once again, take either the ammo, or the rifle back first, then return for the other.
I have found this method 100% safe, although I have lost a half a dozen rifles, get very tired, and have never been taken home any meat!

lolololololololololololol

So my question still stands...
Hunting with a single shot would you go sans torpedo in the blow hole?

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
So my question still stands...
Hunting with a single shot would you go sans torpedo in the blow hole?

Double, bolt, or single (if I owned one). None are carried with a round in the chamber unless I am approaching a moose kill in grizzly country, see some seriously fresh bear sign, am sitting on stand, or in the final approach of a stalk. Last two moose were taken with my Chapuis and had plently of time to load some rounds once the stalk started.

Craig Boddington is a big fan if the Ruger #1 and has many years hunting experience with them. I would be curious what he has to say on the subject of an empty single shot on a hunt.
With a single shot you might not get a second shot so all the more weight of making your first shot count and not spook the prey with loading your firearm but I think a single shot can be quieter than a bolt or a double.

Depends on circumstances. On foot round in chamber bolt in detent, not closed. Strangely I never use safeties on bolt actions, just got used to the bolt half open.

Doubles I carry loaded on safe on foot, always empty in vehicles.

Have carried rifles with rounds in the mag, nothing in the chamber whilst we've driven around recon properties.

Never had an AD, never witnessed an AD and hope to heck I go the rest of my life like this. The old adage of safety being between the ears probably means more than anything else I would argue.

quote:

Originally posted by CAS II:

Just out of curiosity, how many hunters have ever been killed by an accidental discharge by a firearm with NO round in the chamber? Since the first firearm was ever made, I'm guessing it is about ZERO. The contrary is not true.

I'd be willing to bet that a fair percentage of the accident victims were shot by "empty" guns.