quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
Trax,

especially those who have a years long positive track record that I like.

The ability to remain 100% objective escapes me, what sort of batting average do you have? If you've been married more than once or ever raised your voice to a child under six you have failed at least once.

Besides, this ain't about me. Try to stay on track.

It's about the opinions of those who carry loaded and why and those who choose not to and why. More specifically those who say they remove the safeties from their rifles.

Focus man, focus...

Rich
DRSS

Yep, that would be me. When I used to shoot Remingtons I removed the safeties. Carried the rifles with no rounds in the chamber then chambered one when I decided to shoot or stalk something. Guess what? I knew the rifle was loaded, carried it safely, and never had a mishap. Total and complete confidence in my ability and maturity to carry a loaded weapon. Respect the loaded rifle and treat it properly and no safety is needed. If the stalk was blown the round would be removed.
However, since I no longer own Remingtons and most of my bolts are Winchesters or MRC's the safety stays on the rifle because it would look like shit without it.

So, I don't need a safety to be safe with my rifles and it works for me. If you want to do otherwise that is your choice and go for it. Really don't understand why what I do bothers so many. I respect your choices, just disagree with them.

Randy,

it is your choice, it just runs counter to everything most of us have learned about safe gunhandling and hunting from the adults that taught us.
Nothing against you, it just seems weird to me.

Rich
DRSS

I don't think it is the majority agreeing or disagreeing with you. I think the majority just don't understand why you would want to.

Well, this thread was about a round in the chamber or not. The no safety thing was on another thread yet people still keep on bringing it up here.

Thats fair, I dont understand why anyone needs to carry a round in the chamber. I dont and it never cost me an animal yet. Nor do I need a safety once a round is chambered to lure me into a false sense of security.

I carry and am required to use firearms as part of my profession. They are loaded when not in storage. Same for when I'm hunting.

Regardless if a weapon has a round in the chamber or not, every weapon should always be universally treated as being loaded and ready to fire. Even for you guys who keep a bullet in your pocket with the bolt open while hunting, there should be no difference in how you handle your weapon as you should treat it as being loaded and ready to fire. Even if the mechanical safety fails, it does not matter as the only true safety on the firearm is the one between your ears as the firearm should be treated as being loaded and ready to fire.

There is no safety advantage to having an open bolt when hunting unless you are passing the firearm to a second person, leaning the rifle against a fence you must cross, placing the rifle in an open place for storage around camp, etc., etc. If a person is painting others with a muzzle, they are dangerous no matter if the firearm is empty or loaded and they have no business handling a firearm until they can demonstrate proper firearm safety.

Best

It is Very interesting to me that in the interest of "Safety" people will do things that make absolutely no Sense. A gun is a tool. Its a USELESS tool unless its loaded. Bad things happen fast to you. Hunting any dangerous game without a round in the chamber is a BAD idea. Unless your idea of quick response is chucking the gun at the animal and running like hell! Lie down till this idea goes away!
Finally the best "safety" is the one between your ears! Don't try and depend on mechanical means to save your ass. Train to use your brains! I say this with no intent to insult anyone, its just that this subject is incredibly odd to me and goes against everything I've learned about proper gun handling and use of firearms in fast action situations. -Rob

IMO it's all about risk mitigation. What is the greatest risk, and how do you mitigate it.

If Bambi has two legs and a felony warrent out for her arrest, you might need a round in the chamber.

If Thumper can chew your head off, you might need a round in the chamber.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XcxKIJTb3Hg

If fluffy is just, well, just fluffy, and tastes good with mashed potatos, maybe you don't need a round in the chamber.

If you choose to carry a round in the chamber, or not, the decision is not really about you, it's about the guy NEXT to you. It's pretty hard to shoot yourself with a 26" barrel. If you are hunting alone, the issue is really mute. If you are on point, and you carry your rifle at high port, and take the round our before you return to sling arms, that's reasonable. They are most likely to shoot, and will have the best field of fire.

I guess my favorite piece of hyperbally is (and I paraphrase), a rifle with a fully loaded magazine, and an empty chamber, is just a worthless club. Really???? Is there really that big a difference between working a safety and throwing a bolt????

Ultimatly I feel conditions will greatly influnce the decisions of many hunters. Heavy brush with things that can eat you? Yea, that's kind of a no-brainer.
Open country, no bears, lions or wolves, few if any snap shots....for me, that's a no brainer as well.

This is one of the most self-righteous threads I can remember. People bragging about NEVER falling, NEVER pointing their gun in the wrong direction, NEVER witnessing a mechanical AD !!!!

It must be nice to be perfect or just hunt in a virtual world. But everywhere I've ever hunted there have been rocks that roll, mud that is slippery and Mr. Murphy has been alive, well and rather mechanically inclined.

Years ago, when I first started guiding, we were getting back in the truck after a hike and I politely asked the three Dr's I was guiding if their chambers were clear. The ring leader read me the riot act that how dare I question his safety procedure as he'd been teaching Hunter's Safety longer than I'd been alive, etc. About an hour later he shot up in the air by accident. His apologizing nine different times and how embarrassed he was almost made it worth the hearing damage.

That was one that ended well and he was more careful after that. But I've seen way too many close calls and even human blood shed with AD's while in the field.

How long does it take to work the bolt? Good grief! Most shot opportunities I see missed are from people not knowing their equipment, not being mentally ready, scope on the highest power, fooling with their shooting sticks/range finder/bipod, not thinking ahead about when that shot opportunity is going to come, leaving their scope covers on, etc... NOT the instant it takes to put a shell in the chamber.

An-Sn makes some good comments in the body of his message.

Nothing I disagree with in theory.

But his intro bothers me a lot.

"it's all about risk mitigation"

Here is why I find that troubling. Firearms are dangerious if loaded. No mitigating that fact. Physically deciding if a gun is loaded or not is obviously a personal choice. In my world every gun is always loaded by definition, if not in fact.

I have worked almost every day for several decades with firearms at one level or another. The guns that I have seen get people in trouble are the unloaded ones. The result an AD.

That happens 99.99999% of the time (100% in my own experience btw) because someone has their finger in the trigger. I have yet to see a mechanical safety malfunction or a natural disaster cause an AD.

A safety getting brushed off in the field is not a mechnical failure, it is a shooter's failure for being inattentive.

If you physically can't control your own weapon because of terrain, weather or physical disability I would suggest you find a safer sport or a different environment and by all means please UNLOAD your gun. It happens to everyone at some point. Firearms are very serious, requiring complete physical and mental control to handle them safely.

If you hunt where you fall a lot, or risk a serious fall, an empty chamber, is the least of your worries. Classic example of bad decision making from the start, imo. Obviously unload your firearm.

So it really isn't about having an extra second to spare when you work the bolt or lever or crack your dbl. It isn't about the nasty going to eat you or the bird that was missed. For me it is all about treating every gun the same all the time. They are all loaded.

I demand a certain level decision making and gun handling around my person. Seems a "no brainer".

Hopefully the discussion will remind us all to be more attentive with our own firearms no matter what condition you decide to carry them. Anyone who owes a firearm can have an AD and seriously injure or kill someone they care about. Only your attention to detail and what is between your ears will keep that from happening.

Jezzzzz...another absolutely worthless question/argument....

A weapons mechanical safety is a mechanical device subject to screwing up...mostly at the wrong time because Murphy likes it that way.

SAFETY is in the mind and actions of the shooter.

Depending on a mechanical device is not always the best irregardless of what grampa/poppa said...most of us are old enough to decide for ourselves and I certainly don't let long dead relatives decide for me.

In a hunting/dangerous encounter situation or even close, you damned right my shooter is cocked, not necessarily locked, with one up the spout and the mag topped off...otherwise the chamber is empty, the mag is full and the bolt is open.

All the BS aside...if you can't handle a weapon safely LOADED, you shouldn't be near one.

There are times when I do put the safety on or open the bolt but not pull it back, like crawling through the bush where brush could cause a discharge, but I try to keep my thumb ON the safety to hold it in position against accidentally releasing it.

Many of my guns DON'T have safeties and every gun in my house is loaded but only a few have rounds in the chambers...visitors are warned BEFORE they enter of this fact and to keep their hands OFF...grabbing my shooters is the same thing to me as grabbing my daughter or wife...when I had them around...you don't get a second chance or warning.

It boils down to mindset...whether your mind has been set into the mindlessness of following the rest of the cattle or in the cocked and ready to kill/protect set.

YOUR CALL for YOU and no amount of happy horse sh** will do anything but make the flowers and grass grow.

Luck

RBD, with one or two exceptions, I would say we are in agreement.
"For me it is all about treating every gun the same all the time. They are all loaded."

Just because I choose unload the chamber, doesn't mean I"m going to treat the muzzle any different. But as far as mechanical failure's, here we differ. I've seen M-60's cook off, "Killing me". Fortunatly it was with miles gear and blanks. I've seen M-16's slam fire. I've watched M-16A1's shoot off their entire magazine while while being held by the stock and hand guard...not once, but twice. I've seen Remington 700's go off when the safety was switched from safe to fire. On a Winchester Model 70, if you adjust the trigger to minimum, and jar it, it will go off. A friend of the family had a pre-transfer bar 3 screw Ruger Blackhawks, fall of off a table and go off. Last week I cleaned my wife's Tikka T3. When I set it in the rack it went "Click". Needless to say, it's getting a trip to the gunsmith. Of course my all time favorite is the Japanesse Nambu, with it's exposed sear . Although I would not expect any LE Agency to approve it for carry, it was still issued by a major 20th century military.

Regardless of the mechanical issues, I think we can agree that most ADD's happen when someone makes a mistake, and has their finger on the trigger, AND a round in the chamber...and not employing proper muzzle control, well, that's when accidents happen.

As for mitigating risk, although I don't know you personally, something tells me you do it every day.

I would expectthat you carry a state of the are firearm, with multiple safty features, in good repair. I suspect you carry it in a holster that helps control the direction on the muzzle, which is straight down...not Miami Vice, I'm going to point my gun at everyone standing behind me style. I wouldn't be suprised if your holster had somekind of positive retention feature. I suspect you are a well trained professional, and choose to only work with other equally serious well trained professional. If you job involves going into harms way, I suspect that each time design a plan to minimize the risk to your team, and have a safetly briefing before you deploy. How about ammunition. Do you shoot armor piercing, or something designed not to over penetrate bad guys and walls? Why do we do these things? To mitigate risk.

Every time we go to the field, most of us ask ourselves the same question. What is the greatest risk, and how do I minimize it. Since I'm not out hunting Bambi with the felony warrent, or the Vorpal Bunny, my risks are the other driver, the weather, and those I hunt with. So I wear my seat belt, carry a set of chains, and when practicle, hunt with a full magazine and an empty chamber.

Who says that just because we dont hunt with a hot chamber that that makes us a danger with a gun? I treat the damn thing as if it is loaded, whether it is or not.

This holier than thou shit is amazing. I guess I didnt get the memo that you have to have a hot chamber if you want to be a man.

I'm still curious on what the big deal is to a person if another person wants to hunt with an empty chamber. No one here is gonna change my mind cuz they do it there way in indiana or wherever.

quote:

What is the greatest risk, and how do I minimize it.

Agreed.

My experience tells me the greatest risk while handling any firearm is an AD. In a civilain context that is because a finger is inappropriatly in the trigger with a live round in the chamber. Simple solution...fingers don't go onto triggers until required and additionally it you want a totally inoperable firearm for any reason, no ammo in the chamber. Problem solved. If only everyone could remember those three things

Broken, misfitted or mistreated guns malfunction. But that is not the gun's fault. It is the owner's fault for not having the knowledge to maintain or care for the weapon properly.

We obviously agree on mitigating/prioritizing risk in our environment, depending on the ultimate goal, and address it with our peers by planning and execution. I think we'll have to agree to disagree on mitigating risk in the context of how firearms are handled.

quote:

My experinece tells me the greatest risk while handling any firearm is an AD. In a civilain context that is because a finger is inappropriatly in the trigger with a live round in the chamber. Simple solution...fingers don't go onto triggers until required and if you want a inoperable firearm, no ammo in the chamber. Problem solved.

Again we agree. It's just a difference in prospective. Where you are still servicing the public 24/7 , I just ocassionally want something to go with my hamburger helper.

As a training officer you are working with dedicated professionals preparing them for harms way. A hot range can be a valuable tool to help keep their minds focused, and teach the mindset they needs 24/7.

When I'm Range Officer at my local gunclub for hunter sight in day, I'm working with every Bubba, and RDB Wannabe that can put $5.00 on the shooting bench . There will be 100+ different rifles, and not one of them will have been to a police armorer (because we let SWAT, DOC and the Postal Inspector shoot on their own days). Everything from muzzleloaders to SKS, Weatherby's with $20.00 scopes. You name it. So on the open sight in day, I thinks it best we skip the hot range, and go with open bolts and chamber flags for every rifle that's not on the line.

Personally I think our goals are the same, to provide a safe shooting enviroment for ourselves, and those around us. We just shoot in very different worlds and have adapted our techniques to match those worlds.

Seriously, don't confuse me with a professional al

I have a gun at my night stand and it doesn't have a round in the chamber. Just too dangerious around the house. As I'm likely to pick the thing up and fondle it. (which is how ADs happen

(although I think my wife's might..her choice of course..no one touches her chit)

and no way am I having this discussion with her!

Reminds me of one of "Denver Finest" who receives a drubbing everytime he visits the local gunshop. He and his wife have matching sidearms. He picked up the wrong one (his wifes) to fondle it and put a .45 cal hole in his new 60" plasma TV.
Yea, I suspect his finger was on the trigger.

I put a round in the chamber and put the safety "on" when I leave the truck. If I am in a guided situation and told not to, I don't. It's what I happen to do but not the end of the world if I don't.

this started off as an---- im so safe i dont need a saftey, i even disconnect them----- since its on the big bore forum it implies dangerous game would likely be involved, and then we have the complex mechanical device that can fail, big deal the manufactures dont seem to worry that the what, one moving part is just never reliable if you ase around dangerous game and you think you have time to fiddle around loading the gun then go for it, some things require taking the risk

I guess I must be "Really Dangerous", as I do a lot of hunting with double rifles, and I have a loaded round in TWO CHAMBERS at the SAME time...

Horrors...

No N E, your not the dangerous one, according to most here those of us that hunt with cold chambers are the dangerous ones.

This is one of many things that should be discussed with whoever you are hunting with.

I would NEVER hunt with anyone that would expect me to "walk around" with an unloaded gun.

I also advise them I WILL be carrying a handgun.

If they have a problem with that, then I hunt with somebody else...

I was thinking I would sooner stay home than hunt with an empty chamber.

OOPS!! The firearms in my house are all loaded...

Rich
DRSS

I carry the rifle loaded when I'm hunting in thick brush it is loaded and safty on. I'm talking Plains Game. If it were DG then the safty would be off

Guys, dont get me wrong. I dont have a problem with hunting with someone who has a hot chamber. I'll just be behind them.

Its just not my thing. I havent been hindered yet. Same goes for if someone wants to carry a handgun, I dont care. Hunted one time with a guy who carried 3 handguns plus his rifle. That one made my wife and I chuckle but hey, each to his own.

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
I was thinking I would sooner stay home than hunt with an empty chamber.

OOPS!! The firearms in my house are all loaded...

Rich
DRSS

Rich, I thought you said that this was an open minded discussion? This doesnt sound to open minded to me or is it only open minded if everybody agrees with you?

Is it an ego thing? oh, this internet stuff is fun. sad part is, people live for this.

Opinion...

Not binding on you or anyone else.

I believe we will have to agree to disagree.

I am not saying any of you who carry empty are dorks. Just strange...



Rich
DRSS

Strange, well I guess thats one of the better things I have been called during my life.

Honestly and looking for an honest answer. What is wrong with hunting without one in the pipe?

To me it is a safety issue. You hear about it every year. a couple of years ago we had a guy who "forgot" his gun was loaded. it went off and shot his buddy. by the time they got anywhere close to a rescue the guy bled out. Granted this is rare but it happens every year.

Human error is a mother....

So I ask what is wrong with carrying without a round chambered and why is it strange?

(this to anybody not just Rich)

quote:

Originally posted by Joel/AK:
Strange, well I guess thats one of the better things I have been called during my life.

Honestly and looking for an honest answer. What is wrong with hunting without one in the pipe?

To me it is a safety issue. You hear about it every year. a couple of years ago we had a guy who "forgot" his gun was loaded. it went off and shot his buddy. by the time they got anywhere close to a rescue the guy bled out. Granted this is rare but it happens every year.

Human error is a mother....

So I ask what is wrong with carrying without a round chambered and why is it strange?

(this to anybody not just Rich)

Joel,

I don't see that someone carrying a rifle or a shotgun with the chamber empty is a problem at all. If that is your preferance, so be it. The onlyb exception to that is hunting in thick cover where there is dangerous game. DG such as big bears, elephants, buffalo, hippos or lions to name a few. I think carrying a fully loaded rifle is everyones responsibility in those circumstances. Everyones safety may be dependent upon it.

In your example of the person shooting someone, that hunter "forgot!" that the gun was loaded. Is it possible that if he always carried it loaded then he would have known it was loaded and therefore had no reason to assume it was unloaded?

465H&H

Not every situation is the same. If moving alone through thick deer forests then I will have a round chambered. But if I am climbing a steep, rocky hillside with a rifle over my back then the rifle has an empty chamber. When dove shooting I keep the gun ready with chambers loaded. But if I am with friends on a walked up pheasant shoot, and we are walking abreast several yards apart, I will have cartridges in the chamber but my double will be broken open. When a bird flushes the gun is closed as I raise it.

Because no man and no machine is entirely without the possibility of failing, firearms should only be loaded when the situation warrants it. If you are in an area where dangerous beasts pose a threat then, of course, the situation warrants a loaded gun. Other than to counter that sort of threat, to automatically load and chamber a round every time you pick up your firearm could prove a reckless habit. I have seen "safe guns" go off when men tripped and/or fell with them. I have seen guns go off as rounds were chambered. I have seen safeties that were moved to the firing position by clothing, brush, and equipment. I have also seen guns shoot mysteriously just because the safety was moved to "fire". Neither human nor mechanical error can be discounted. Thus the primary principle of keeping any firearm pointed in a safe direction unless taking a shot.

remington had a recall on the 660 (and i think on 700 for a very short time) because taking the saftey off caused the rifle to discharge. remington will fix the 660 triggers for free.( i have one) and i know 2 or 3 guys who had this happen, never heard of a rifle going off when saftey was on, yet. i have had a brand new timney trigger cause the rifle to trip the sear when closing the bolt, but i never had a chance to load it because i discovered the problem soon enough, a hole for the pin that attaches trigger to action was a few thousands out of round, almost impossible see, and sear was set about 3 1/2 lbs so it wasnt a hair trigger.
when i first time hunt w somebody i ask if they want to chamber up then go from there. but if i think they are modifying the gun or some kind of controll freak just dont hunt with them one weird thing is going to lead to another

You can go back and read that when its time, there is a loaded chamber. Whether its active bear sign, areas of high probiblity of being hit etc.

We maybe "strange" but were not idiots.

so here is my next question.

Why do folks think that since others hunt differently we automaticaly practice unsafe gun handling?

I'm sure everybody here has had a brain fart and pointed there weapon at someone and didnt mean to do it sometime in your life. if you say you havent I say your a damned liar.

I usde to run a range while in the military. I seen it there (and kicked off quite a few guys), I see it at the range here in town. I see it when I go hunting with someone, they turn around to say something and not pay attention. We all see this kind of crap. Humans are gonna screw up.

I guess thats OK as long as you do what every one else does I guess.

Maybe because you need to brag about it and try to coerce the overwhelming majority (who vehemently disagree with you few) to accept your definition of safe firearms handling. We refuse to validate your minority approach.

That's the problem in America these days: somebody came up with the notion that the Constitution guarantees you the right not to be offended. It ain't there.

I said before, let me repeat; we think this is dumb. We think this is a counterproductive approach when hunting game.

We don't care what you do, we just aren't going to support you.

AT some point you have to accept that and move on.

Rich
DRSS
out of the rig, full magazine and a round in the chamber, and the safety on.

Round in chamber.

Umm Rich, I'm not the one offended. I stated I hunt with people who have one in the chamber. It doesnt bother me one bit.

Since I dont do it like other folks, I'm the unsafe guy.

So now this is a political thing? Come on grow up. I do things differently than you and we dont agree on this one subject, actually I never said that those that do carry hot are bad people. You and your followers are the ones stereotyping.

I personnally could give a rats ass how you hunt.

It's a sign of the political climate. Everybody wants approbation for every piddly little thing they do different.

If I say I do something one way, and three hundred people come along and say "That's Dumb"; maybe I need to reassess my model. If that reevaluation still suits me, then I move along and ignore the majority opinion. I can do it, I just don't get validated by the great unwashed masses.

For all the rest of us here care, you can stuff your empty rifle down one pants leg and walk like Chester in the old "Gunsmoke" TV show.
You just are not going to get a safety award from AR, or start a trend.

Survey Says: 98+% of us think it's dumb.

Time to let it go, nobody is converting to your way of thinking...

regards,

Rich
DRSS

Sorry Rich not rying to convert anybody. I'll type slower if it helps you understand that I dont care how other folks hunt.

I'm just asking what impact it has on folks if I hunt with a cold chamber and why the stereotyping that that makes us automatic unsafe gun handlers.

To me, its a pretty simple question but I guess I'm wrong.

Oh and part of the problem with society today is that no is willing to stick to there guns, everybody has to do what other folks do. I have my own brain and I'll be damned if anybody here says I have to do it differently. You and I are the same, we will stick to our guns come hell or high water. we do just disagree on this subject, and even then I will not belittle you for the way you hunt.

If I'm out of the vehicle and hunting, I have one in the chamber and the safety is on. It's always been that way, and it always will be that way for me. The only time that changes is if I have to cross a fence or very rough spot that will take both my hands to negotiate through.

I guess I'm another one that thinks hunting with an empty chamber is completely pointless. I guess it "plays well" on an internet forum, eh boys?

In the "empty chamber" camp, I have read several different proponents, both on this retread thread, and the original BS thread that started this one, that use the example of crossing a person with a muzzle, and that's why you believe chambers should be empty.

I call bullshit to that. The FIRST time you cross me with an empty chambered rifle I will be all over your ass about it. I don't care if you've emptied the magazine and pulled the bolt too. Whether it's in your hands, or slung on your shoulder. The SECOND time you do it, the fight will be on.

Hey Joel, go ahead and call me a liar then. I have never, not one time in my life, ever pointed a rifle or handgun at anyone accidentally.

I have pointed a couple at people on purpose before. But that was not hunting, and it was either while in service, or armed security force. Most of those were training only, but a couple were not. And no I didn't enjoy it.

Every gun is always loaded all the time. Even when it's in a case. The moment you stop treating them that way is when the trouble starts. "Mitigating risks"... Sorry, pure bullshit to me. Most gun accidents are with "unloaded" guns. I think unloaded guns are far, far more dangerous than loaded ones. It has to do with the mindset of the human that's closest to the gun. You're right, the most commonly heard statement AFTER the accident is, "I didn't know the gun was loaded."

There is only one firearm in my house that has bullets in it. BUT THEY ARE ALL LOADED. I hope you understand that I'm talking about a mindset here.

I know I'm not going to change your minds about hunting with empty chambers, either way, and I'm NOT trying to. Do what you want. Hunt the way you want. I'll hunt the way I want.

Just don't expect not to be looked at as completely nuts.

So, us who dont carry a rifle with a round in the chamber are nuts?

Yet your firearms in your house are all loaded even though only one has bullets in it?

Kind of a weird mindset if you ask me.

Off the subject for a minute, but this bullshit about a unloaded gun shooting someone is just that, bullshit. A unloaded gun never killed anyone unless you beat them over the head with it or used the barrel to stab them. LOADED guns kill people. Accidents happen with LOADED guns. They do not happen with UNLOADED guns. They happen with loaded guns and inattentive people using them.

Some of us have mastered the ability to chamber a round as we shoulder the rifle. We are comfortable with that as we hunt. If you arent, fine.

Hey Slim....LIAR. Sorry man, couldnt pass it up.


You do not walk on water. you may think you do but you dont.

I still havent read an answer on why carrying cold makes us unsafe or whats wrong with it.

Alot of personal feelings but no answer. How hard is it answer my question?

Guys, I understand the passion but can some just answer the goddamn question I asked? your worse than politicians. You say its wrong, but why? Its my ass I have to cover.

Rich says cuz most do it this way. OK, most voted for Obama also. obviously the majority doesnt make it right and the end all practice.

Somebody......